The vending machines are the NPC merchants. You don't purchase anything significant from a vending machine therefore is has very little lasting value in your life.
How do you think CU crafters will sell heal pots?
SmudgePudge's Vending Machine. My vending machine would sell tie's. You would buy the tie, wear it, get compliments, and refer your friends back to SmudgePudge's Vending Machine where they could buy a sweet tie.
Crafters don't make sweet swords in MMORPGs. They make the exact same swords that the next 50 crafters can make unless they have a BOP recipe from a raid dungeon.
This extension of your argument relies on the assumption that the items that crafters make are individually unique and valuable on an individual basis.
Sorry bro, but that individuality does not exist. You and the next 30 GM weaponsmiths can make 100 qual swords. I really DGAF whose name is on the vending machine as long as it's selling what I want.
You see, now we are discussing the accuracy of vending machines being used to sell ties, and the inaccurate parallel between unique ties and non-unique swords.
Like I said, this discussion is getting very stupid very quickly, mostly because you're attempting to distill a Real Life example very poorly.
However - JOY TO THE HEAVENS! We actually have an answer to the question about why to include Auction Houses. The answer - convenience. That's it.
I never claimed that the AH system had any other advantage. I claimed that no other system short of direct trading had any value over AHs.
They need to do a better job of teaching critical reading in school. I never really appreciated it back then, but I guess it's really important.
I seriously cant read all your posts, and i dont plan to argue with any person in here, but i will say what i DO miss,
when Spellcrafter crafting skill came into game, i was one of the very first in my server that maxed it, and what i did was having half the price from everyone else selling their "services" to other players, and still have huge profits, in the end i end up giving to a couple people my email to send me their orders as unfortunately there was no in game mail, and i end up having a quite good amount of emails in daily basis from people i have never met or talked in my gaming life again giving me orders, and chating with me so they can get their discounts. I met a huge amount of people that be-friended me and had a chit chat from times to times, almost everyone knew that i was one of the cheapest spellcrafters on my server back then, and it forced me for quite some time to become from a pure pvper into a crafter.
I will never regret for keeping that business alive for about ~6 months
edit: oups forgot to finish this by saying, if there WAS an AH, i would just be another AH seller that nobody ever talked to me.
Browse AAA item, sort by lowest price, buyout. never care again.
edit2: spellcrafter version in wow AH was mentioned on the above sentence
Well yeah, spellcrafting is an active service that requires the direct participation of the "seller" and buyer. E.g. it's basically direct trade based on the mechanics involved.
It's a legit alternative to the AH with costs and benefits.
Have to say that everytime i read a topic on CU forums i get re assured that CU community is really shaping up to be very friendly and unique community. In this community people don't just label you troll for having different opinion..they don't just flame your or get personal for putting forward your concerns or isssues. They welcome everyone with open arms, they are accepting, they are accomodating.
look at this topic for instance. Op wasn't flamed once or called 'troll' for expressing his opinion. Isn't that what we all need.
I have no doubt this game is going to be run away succes. After all what is a game without its community?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
The vending machines are the NPC merchants. You don't purchase anything significant from a vending machine therefore is has very little lasting value in your life.
How do you think CU crafters will sell heal pots?
SmudgePudge's Vending Machine. My vending machine would sell tie's. You would buy the tie, wear it, get compliments, and refer your friends back to SmudgePudge's Vending Machine where they could buy a sweet tie.
Crafters don't make sweet swords in MMORPGs. They make the exact same swords that the next 50 crafters can make unless they have a BOP recipe from a raid dungeon.
This extension of your argument relies on the assumption that the items that crafters make are individually unique and valuable on an individual basis.
Sorry bro, but that individuality does not exist. You and the next 30 GM weaponsmiths can make 100 qual swords. I really DGAF whose name is on the vending machine as long as it's selling what I want.
You see, now we are discussing the accuracy of vending machines being used to sell ties, and the inaccurate parallel between unique ties and non-unique swords.
Like I said, this discussion is getting very stupid very quickly, mostly because you're attempting to distill a Real Life example very poorly.
However - JOY TO THE HEAVENS! We actually have an answer to the question about why to include Auction Houses. The answer - convenience. That's it.
I never claimed that the AH system had any other advantage. I claimed that no other system short of direct trading had any value over AHs.
They need to do a better job of teaching critical reading in school. I never really appreciated it back then, but I guess it's really important.
If player stalls only contained items like heal pots your stupid analogy would work. They won't, so it doesn't.
Your lack of CU knowledge is hurting you yet again. Right in the Foundational Principles CSE specificaly says it wants to create a crafting system that supports the ability for uniqueness. Hopefully through the use of visual elements, but uniqueness is the goal. However, you brought up uniqueness, I didn't. I said value. Regardless of how unique a sword is it's still way more valuable then a heal pot. It is very likely that players will talk about the new gear they just bought. If they bought them from a player stall, the opportunity to create a sense of community exists.
The extension of my argument relying on uniqueness is something you created. If you want to argue with yourself that is your right. Uniqueness does not equal value therefore my argument is valid. Uniqueness, sometimes, equates to increased value but that is different.
I never claimed that the AH system had any other advantage. I claimed that no other system short of direct trading had any value over AHs.
Your claim is only true if you dispute what I wrote about crafters selling something of value. Which you haven't. Therefore your claim is false. But it doesn't matter anyways. You say that the AH system doesn't have any other advantage than convenience and that other systems don't have any value over AHs. We've already established CSE isn't going for convenience therefore players stalls and AH's are equal.
Your lack of CU knowledge is hurting you yet again. Right in the Foundational Principles CSE specificaly says it wants to create a crafting system that supports the ability for uniqueness. Hopefully through the use of visual elements, but uniqueness is the goal.
Rofl. Last I checked, CU will not have tiered gear, so uniqueness is left to aesthetics. In other words, the gear will be interchangeable for stats, which is what most players will care about.
Luckily, most competent modern AH implementations allow a "preview" option so you can see the aesthetics of gear. In addition, AHs often list the sellers name right next to it, so you can contact them if you want to discuss things directly.
E.g. no different than the bot "vending machine" model ... except less running around.
Uniqueness does not equal value therefore my argument is valid.
No; you claimed that the value of one tie (the one from your vending machine) is different from the value of another tie (the one from the other guy's vending machine).
By claiming that, you opened the uniqueness facet of the argument, unless you have another reason why your widget is more interesting than another person's widget ... ?
We've already established CSE isn't going for convenience therefore players stalls and AH's are equal.
I see!
CSE is intentionally making the game inconvenient for no other reason than to inconvenience and frustrate players!
That is brilliant! That must be exactly what MJ is saying! Thank you for translating!
Hey easymodeX csn you show me a source were MJ said there would be healing potions in cu, i cant find it anywere and sure its better to have people interacting with eachother then not maybe all crafts will be as spellcrafting we dont know.
And you could learn by word of mouth whos the good crafters and help em by guarding while they gather materials to instead of window shopping in town.
And i think it will have tierd gear if not the copper sword a journeman can do would be as good as the iron on the artisan or dragonium the master creates and i just dont see thar happening.
It isn't going to be the cup of tea (as others are so fond of saying) for the bulk of people that visit this site. The question remains, can it scrap together another players to be active and fun for said players, for more than a few months.
Time will tell, it sounds overly focused to me. Half the fun in MMOs for me is having a large variety of things to do.
It isn't going to be the cup of tea (as others are so fond of saying) for the bulk of people that visit this site. The question remains, can it scrap together another players to be active and fun for said players, for more than a few months.
Time will tell, it sounds overly focused to me. Half the fun in MMOs for me is having a large variety of things to do.
For you. I cared less about all those other things to do....actually including housing and crafting.
and my guess is 95% of pledgers feel the same having waited 5+ years to recapture the feeling.
Only somewhat related to the conversation at hand, but I like the DAoC system. Checking out peoples houses and trophies when I stopped by for items was fun for me.
In EQ2 I also enjoyed seeing peoples houses and the different things they were selling. I often had one of everything in my house for customers to see what I was selling and would haggle finished goods for rares that I couldnt harvest myself so that I could make the rare version of an item.
Also in EQ2 it was a nice bonus that the furniture helped reduce the cost of the house.
Sorry, I diverged into more of a housing discussion but as a mostly crafting character I enjoy that portion of the game. Clearly there are people that also just want ot fight, get more gear, fight some more. I think there will be room for both of them in CU.
After having an email replied to by MJ I know hes pushing hard to do everything possible to change the tired old mechanics of crafting but I guess theres a cut off point with how much you can change it. I know for fact that MJ is looking into allowing very rare "masterpiece" items to be made by crafters who can master their specific roles and get hold of the required mega rare materials from inside the depths and then be able to have a good enough grp around them to get them deep enough into the depths to reach/find a depths forge to create the one off weapon. IF you manage to get it made as a "masterpiece" ( which MJ described as 1/1000 chance) then they are also looking into allowing crafters to name the weapons they create ( Orc Bane, Dragon Destroyer etc etc) Im presuming you would have to submit the name via a dev pm/post to prevent stupid names tho.
@Easy... I can see the point your clinging onto like a dog with a bone, why spend 15minutes running round going to players houses when you could go to a AH and buy the same stuff for the same prices in under 2 minutes!
Truth is we dont really know at this time the full reason MJ doesnt like/want AH in his game other than to promote some form of recognition for the crafters, when was the last time you gave a damn about the crafters name when clicking "buy" on an AH ? At least you know who made the item youve bought and might recommend him to other players as his prices were good,quality and selection of goods was top notch, just a thought.
Pls stop being so argumentative over this,your entitled to your opinion and views and weve heard them now,enough already lol.
I don't know what it is about this webpage but it seems to be almost an anti CU establishment here,theres so much trolling,bashing hating on CU here its silly,no other site has been this negative on this large of a scale towards the idea.
Can't you give MJ some credit for at least trying to wake up the MMO genre again and inject some freshness back into what even you have to agree has become a VERY stale and same old,same old game type? You've got to admit that theres some cracking ideas by his team for this game?
Your lack of CU knowledge is hurting you yet again. Right in the Foundational Principles CSE specificaly says it wants to create a crafting system that supports the ability for uniqueness. Hopefully through the use of visual elements, but uniqueness is the goal.
Rofl. Last I checked, CU will not have tiered gear, so uniqueness is left to aesthetics. In other words, the gear will be interchangeable for stats, which is what most players will care about.
Luckily, most competent modern AH implementations allow a "preview" option so you can see the aesthetics of gear. In addition, AHs often list the sellers name right next to it, so you can contact them if you want to discuss things directly.
E.g. no different than the bot "vending machine" model ... except less running around.
Uniqueness does not equal value therefore my argument is valid.
No; you claimed that the value of one tie (the one from your vending machine) is different from the value of another tie (the one from the other guy's vending machine).
By claiming that, you opened the uniqueness facet of the argument, unless you have another reason why your widget is more interesting than another person's widget ... ?
We've already established CSE isn't going for convenience therefore players stalls and AH's are equal.
I see!
CSE is intentionally making the game inconvenient for no other reason than to inconvenience and frustrate players!
That is brilliant! That must be exactly what MJ is saying! Thank you for translating!
Unfortunately I just don't have time for anymore circular arguments. You keep telling me what I meant when I said something and that just isn't conducive to a debate.
I probably should have left when you used the term 'cognitive dissonance' to describe people who had assumptions about player stalls. You were clearly reaching, and your attempt to use big words and phrases to make yourself look more intelligent than you are is telling. Cognitive dissonance literally describes a feeling of discomfort. You were telling people who thought player stalls increased social interaction that they were feeling discomfort?! And congrous does not mean 'the same' dude. It's a specific term about things fitting together.
You come off intelligent enough - no need to use words outside of your regular vocabulary. And unless you are a practicing psychologist, 'cognitive dissonance' is certainly not in your regular vocab.
Take care.
yea right, pretend to be the smart person leaving this discussion because you are so highly developed.
"the clever give in" does not mean you argue about all the shit again, tell everyone how clever you are and that you are leaving - smart people just leave *G*
and naaaa, i am not a smart person either, just an amused one atm *G*
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Comments
The vending machines are the NPC merchants. You don't purchase anything significant from a vending machine therefore is has very little lasting value in your life.
How do you think CU crafters will sell heal pots?
SmudgePudge's Vending Machine. My vending machine would sell tie's. You would buy the tie, wear it, get compliments, and refer your friends back to SmudgePudge's Vending Machine where they could buy a sweet tie.
Crafters don't make sweet swords in MMORPGs. They make the exact same swords that the next 50 crafters can make unless they have a BOP recipe from a raid dungeon.
This extension of your argument relies on the assumption that the items that crafters make are individually unique and valuable on an individual basis.
Sorry bro, but that individuality does not exist. You and the next 30 GM weaponsmiths can make 100 qual swords. I really DGAF whose name is on the vending machine as long as it's selling what I want.
You see, now we are discussing the accuracy of vending machines being used to sell ties, and the inaccurate parallel between unique ties and non-unique swords.
Like I said, this discussion is getting very stupid very quickly, mostly because you're attempting to distill a Real Life example very poorly.
However - JOY TO THE HEAVENS! We actually have an answer to the question about why to include Auction Houses. The answer - convenience. That's it.
I never claimed that the AH system had any other advantage. I claimed that no other system short of direct trading had any value over AHs.
They need to do a better job of teaching critical reading in school. I never really appreciated it back then, but I guess it's really important.
I seriously cant read all your posts, and i dont plan to argue with any person in here, but i will say what i DO miss,
when Spellcrafter crafting skill came into game, i was one of the very first in my server that maxed it, and what i did was having half the price from everyone else selling their "services" to other players, and still have huge profits, in the end i end up giving to a couple people my email to send me their orders as unfortunately there was no in game mail, and i end up having a quite good amount of emails in daily basis from people i have never met or talked in my gaming life again giving me orders, and chating with me so they can get their discounts. I met a huge amount of people that be-friended me and had a chit chat from times to times, almost everyone knew that i was one of the cheapest spellcrafters on my server back then, and it forced me for quite some time to become from a pure pvper into a crafter.
I will never regret for keeping that business alive for about ~6 months
edit: oups forgot to finish this by saying, if there WAS an AH, i would just be another AH seller that nobody ever talked to me.
Browse AAA item, sort by lowest price, buyout. never care again.
edit2: spellcrafter version in wow AH was mentioned on the above sentence
The tip for
The win is
cooperation.
Well yeah, spellcrafting is an active service that requires the direct participation of the "seller" and buyer. E.g. it's basically direct trade based on the mechanics involved.
It's a legit alternative to the AH with costs and benefits.
Have to say that everytime i read a topic on CU forums i get re assured that CU community is really shaping up to be very friendly and unique community. In this community people don't just label you troll for having different opinion..they don't just flame your or get personal for putting forward your concerns or isssues. They welcome everyone with open arms, they are accepting, they are accomodating.
look at this topic for instance. Op wasn't flamed once or called 'troll' for expressing his opinion. Isn't that what we all need.
I have no doubt this game is going to be run away succes. After all what is a game without its community?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
If player stalls only contained items like heal pots your stupid analogy would work. They won't, so it doesn't.
Your lack of CU knowledge is hurting you yet again. Right in the Foundational Principles CSE specificaly says it wants to create a crafting system that supports the ability for uniqueness. Hopefully through the use of visual elements, but uniqueness is the goal. However, you brought up uniqueness, I didn't. I said value. Regardless of how unique a sword is it's still way more valuable then a heal pot. It is very likely that players will talk about the new gear they just bought. If they bought them from a player stall, the opportunity to create a sense of community exists.
The extension of my argument relying on uniqueness is something you created. If you want to argue with yourself that is your right. Uniqueness does not equal value therefore my argument is valid. Uniqueness, sometimes, equates to increased value but that is different.
I never claimed that the AH system had any other advantage. I claimed that no other system short of direct trading had any value over AHs.
Your claim is only true if you dispute what I wrote about crafters selling something of value. Which you haven't. Therefore your claim is false. But it doesn't matter anyways. You say that the AH system doesn't have any other advantage than convenience and that other systems don't have any value over AHs. We've already established CSE isn't going for convenience therefore players stalls and AH's are equal.
Thank you for clarifying this.
Your lack of CU knowledge is hurting you yet again. Right in the Foundational Principles CSE specificaly says it wants to create a crafting system that supports the ability for uniqueness. Hopefully through the use of visual elements, but uniqueness is the goal.
Rofl. Last I checked, CU will not have tiered gear, so uniqueness is left to aesthetics. In other words, the gear will be interchangeable for stats, which is what most players will care about.
Luckily, most competent modern AH implementations allow a "preview" option so you can see the aesthetics of gear. In addition, AHs often list the sellers name right next to it, so you can contact them if you want to discuss things directly.
E.g. no different than the bot "vending machine" model ... except less running around.
Uniqueness does not equal value therefore my argument is valid.
No; you claimed that the value of one tie (the one from your vending machine) is different from the value of another tie (the one from the other guy's vending machine).
By claiming that, you opened the uniqueness facet of the argument, unless you have another reason why your widget is more interesting than another person's widget ... ?
We've already established CSE isn't going for convenience therefore players stalls and AH's are equal.
I see!
CSE is intentionally making the game inconvenient for no other reason than to inconvenience and frustrate players!
That is brilliant! That must be exactly what MJ is saying! Thank you for translating!
It isn't going to be the cup of tea (as others are so fond of saying) for the bulk of people that visit this site. The question remains, can it scrap together another players to be active and fun for said players, for more than a few months.
Time will tell, it sounds overly focused to me. Half the fun in MMOs for me is having a large variety of things to do.
For you. I cared less about all those other things to do....actually including housing and crafting.
and my guess is 95% of pledgers feel the same having waited 5+ years to recapture the feeling.
Only somewhat related to the conversation at hand, but I like the DAoC system. Checking out peoples houses and trophies when I stopped by for items was fun for me.
In EQ2 I also enjoyed seeing peoples houses and the different things they were selling. I often had one of everything in my house for customers to see what I was selling and would haggle finished goods for rares that I couldnt harvest myself so that I could make the rare version of an item.
Also in EQ2 it was a nice bonus that the furniture helped reduce the cost of the house.
Sorry, I diverged into more of a housing discussion but as a mostly crafting character I enjoy that portion of the game. Clearly there are people that also just want ot fight, get more gear, fight some more. I think there will be room for both of them in CU.
After having an email replied to by MJ I know hes pushing hard to do everything possible to change the tired old mechanics of crafting but I guess theres a cut off point with how much you can change it. I know for fact that MJ is looking into allowing very rare "masterpiece" items to be made by crafters who can master their specific roles and get hold of the required mega rare materials from inside the depths and then be able to have a good enough grp around them to get them deep enough into the depths to reach/find a depths forge to create the one off weapon. IF you manage to get it made as a "masterpiece" ( which MJ described as 1/1000 chance) then they are also looking into allowing crafters to name the weapons they create ( Orc Bane, Dragon Destroyer etc etc) Im presuming you would have to submit the name via a dev pm/post to prevent stupid names tho.
@Easy... I can see the point your clinging onto like a dog with a bone, why spend 15minutes running round going to players houses when you could go to a AH and buy the same stuff for the same prices in under 2 minutes!
Truth is we dont really know at this time the full reason MJ doesnt like/want AH in his game other than to promote some form of recognition for the crafters, when was the last time you gave a damn about the crafters name when clicking "buy" on an AH ? At least you know who made the item youve bought and might recommend him to other players as his prices were good,quality and selection of goods was top notch, just a thought.
Pls stop being so argumentative over this,your entitled to your opinion and views and weve heard them now,enough already lol.
I don't know what it is about this webpage but it seems to be almost an anti CU establishment here,theres so much trolling,bashing hating on CU here its silly,no other site has been this negative on this large of a scale towards the idea.
Can't you give MJ some credit for at least trying to wake up the MMO genre again and inject some freshness back into what even you have to agree has become a VERY stale and same old,same old game type? You've got to admit that theres some cracking ideas by his team for this game?
yea right, pretend to be the smart person leaving this discussion because you are so highly developed.
"the clever give in" does not mean you argue about all the shit again, tell everyone how clever you are and that you are leaving - smart people just leave *G*
and naaaa, i am not a smart person either, just an amused one atm *G*
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"