Here is one thing you didn't understand about the game.
There is something that will be really important to a lot of players that'll play the game.
Something called reputation.
We want to know our enemy, to hate them and strike fear in their hearts, to be aknowledged for our prowess, to challenge the renowed enemy, to try winning against such powerful foe, or to be sought after for our skills, be it for fighting or crafting.
How can you expect to know or to be known by anyone if the players change every month because of the casual crowd?
That's why FTP would ruin the game.
I will aso add than i prefer much more to have the dev working on the actual game instead of working on a good cash shop for the BTP/FTP model.
Yeah, I understand there are many reasons why people would prefer P2P, especially in a game that is RvR focused. But if given the option of either going B2P/F2P model or die, I think if the game is awesome, a lot of people would prefer it to survive. There will still be plenty of hardcore people that rise to the top and recognize each other. I don't think changing the payment model will remove the people that are intensly playing and owning all the time. If anything, it will add additional noob fodder for them to feed on.
I guess we just disagree on something that is speculation on both our parts. You think the payment model is the reason people get to know each other and create rivalries and F2P hurts that because more people are just passing through, I think it has more to do with the performance of the player/guild.
Here is one thing you didn't understand about the game.
There is something that will be really important to a lot of players that'll play the game.
Something called reputation.
We want to know our enemy, to hate them and strike fear in their hearts, to be aknowledged for our prowess, to challenge the renowed enemy, to try winning against such powerful foe, or to be sought after for our skills, be it for fighting or crafting.
...
Here is one thing you don't understand about gamers:
Most of them will never get to be "that guy". And for the 90% of players who don't achieve that (and are never part of that guild) they rapidly lose any incentive to stay.
How do I know? Because I have been "that guy", I have been a member of "that guild" I have been at the top of the tree. And when you are there it is truely exhilarating... but it doesn't last.
I have also fought against "that guy" and "that guild" and "that faction" - for years. And I have watched whole player bases drift away and guilds collapse simply because "it's hopeless". I stayed and fought against impossible odds... but that is just me. I am probably only one of maybe 5% who will bother with that - because most people will not pay a subscription just to be a target.
Here is one thing you didn't understand about the game.
There is something that will be really important to a lot of players that'll play the game.
Something called reputation.
We want to know our enemy, to hate them and strike fear in their hearts, to be aknowledged for our prowess, to challenge the renowed enemy, to try winning against such powerful foe, or to be sought after for our skills, be it for fighting or crafting.
...
Here is one thing you don't understand about gamers:
Most of them will never get to be "that guy". And for the 90% of players who don't achieve that (and are never part of that guild) they rapidly lose any incentive to stay.
How do I know? Because I have been "that guy", I have been a member of "that guild" I have been at the top of the tree. And when you are there it is truely exhilarating... but it doesn't last.
I have also fought against "that guy" and "that guild" and "that faction" - for years. And I have watched whole player bases drift away and guilds collapse simply because "it's hopeless". I stayed and fought against impossible odds... but that is just me. I am probably only one of maybe 5% who will bother with that - because most people will not pay a subscription just to be a target.
So be careful what you wish for.
Very interesting point and definitely discussion worthy.
It *is* fun recognizing your enemy. What's *not* fun is being the nameless noob that just has to follow around the recognizable people. I wonder if there are ways to counteract this dynamic.
Here is one thing you didn't understand about the game.
There is something that will be really important to a lot of players that'll play the game.
Something called reputation.
We want to know our enemy, to hate them and strike fear in their hearts, to be aknowledged for our prowess, to challenge the renowed enemy, to try winning against such powerful foe, or to be sought after for our skills, be it for fighting or crafting.
How can you expect to know or to be known by anyone if the players change every month because of the casual crowd?
That's why FTP would ruin the game.
I will aso add than i prefer much more to have the dev working on the actual game instead of working on a good cash shop for the BTP/FTP model.
Yeah, I understand there are many reasons why people would prefer P2P, especially in a game that is RvR focused. But if given the option of either going B2P/F2P model or die, I think if the game is awesome, a lot of people would prefer it to survive. There will still be plenty of hardcore people that rise to the top and recognize each other. I don't think changing the payment model will remove the people that are intensly playing and owning all the time. If anything, it will add additional noob fodder for them to feed on.
I guess we just disagree on something that is speculation on both our parts. You think the payment model is the reason people get to know each other and create rivalries and F2P hurts that because more people are just passing through, I think it has more to do with the performance of the player/guild.
I thought about that and i admit i was hoping you wouldn't notice, but it's true there will still be a core of players staying and you'll get to know them. It is also true than because of the casual players it'll take more time to do so.
But it's not the only reason to avoid FTP. The most important reason i think would be than if you add things like skills or exp boost in a cash shop, the players that can't afford it will feel cheated and find it unfair, and you will also meet some over powered noobs that got that hard to kill just because they spend money and have in fact poor skills.
And if you only add comestics items, with the small audiance the game is aiming for, it will simply be not enough to keep the game running.
Lastly, even if CSE shut down the game, the players will get to keep it running on private servers, so although it doesn't improve anymore, it's still not the end.
Originally posted by redcapp
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic
...
Here is one thing you didn't understand about the game.
There is something that will be really important to a lot of players that'll play the game.
Something called reputation.
We want to know our enemy, to hate them and strike fear in their hearts, to be aknowledged for our prowess, to challenge the renowed enemy, to try winning against such powerful foe, or to be sought after for our skills, be it for fighting or crafting.
...
Here is one thing you don't understand about gamers:
Most of them will never get to be "that guy". And for the 90% of players who don't achieve that (and are never part of that guild) they rapidly lose any incentive to stay.
How do I know? Because I have been "that guy", I have been a member of "that guild" I have been at the top of the tree. And when you are there it is truely exhilarating... but it doesn't last.
I have also fought against "that guy" and "that guild" and "that faction" - for years. And I have watched whole player bases drift away and guilds collapse simply because "it's hopeless". I stayed and fought against impossible odds... but that is just me. I am probably only one of maybe 5% who will bother with that - because most people will not pay a subscription just to be a target.
So be careful what you wish for.
Very interesting point and definitely discussion worthy.
It *is* fun recognizing your enemy. What's *not* fun is being the nameless noob that just has to follow around the recognizable people. I wonder if there are ways to counteract this dynamic.
"Be careful what you wish for...", funny enough it is the title of the second blog post MJ did on their site, was it intended?^^
It's true it's not funny to be the nameless noob for a lot of people. And i don't have any experience about it so what you said about guild crumbling and such is probably true, and i didn't know it. Personally, it doesn't bother me, i don't really like being in the spotlight. Although It's only a personal feeling, and so not very relevant here, there should be some people like me.
Also, not being known doesn't mean you can't have fun, and challenging impossible odds is part of the fun. Sadly, as you said, only a few people like difficulty. Some even go and try to make the game easier by cheating.
Still, even if there is a group of people you gave up on fighting, i think the world will be large enough to be able to avoid them to a certain extent, so i think it may not be as much of a problem.
In general I can't think of anything worse for games/gamers: an MMO under KS WITH LTS (if such a thing were available). I personally would never back a KS for an MMO (too much money required, too many moving parts) and I would also never buy an LTS, so putting those together is probably the biggest possible red flag for me. I guess developers really do think gamers are stupid.
Here is one thing you didn't understand about the game.
There is something that will be really important to a lot of players that'll play the game.
Something called reputation.
We want to know our enemy, to hate them and strike fear in their hearts, to be aknowledged for our prowess, to challenge the renowed enemy, to try winning against such powerful foe, or to be sought after for our skills, be it for fighting or crafting.
...
Here is one thing you don't understand about gamers:
Most of them will never get to be "that guy". And for the 90% of players who don't achieve that (and are never part of that guild) they rapidly lose any incentive to stay.
How do I know? Because I have been "that guy", I have been a member of "that guild" I have been at the top of the tree. And when you are there it is truely exhilarating... but it doesn't last.
I have also fought against "that guy" and "that guild" and "that faction" - for years. And I have watched whole player bases drift away and guilds collapse simply because "it's hopeless". I stayed and fought against impossible odds... but that is just me. I am probably only one of maybe 5% who will bother with that - because most people will not pay a subscription just to be a target.
So be careful what you wish for.
I agree, Ive been on both ends of the spectrum as well. Sometimes it is not about the glory, it is about the jounery, which in my opinion an RvR has none of, just aimless battles with no lanfd owner ship, no castle building,,,, no shadowbane.
Originally posted by Burntvet In general I can't think of anything worse for games/gamers: an MMO under KS WITH LTS (if such a thing were available). I personally would never back a KS for an MMO (too much money required, too many moving parts) and I would also never buy an LTS, so putting those together is probably the biggest possible red flag for me. I guess developers really do think gamers are stupid.
I guess I am one of those 'stupid' gamers. Thanks for the label.
I explained in great detail my very rational reasons for supporting this game at the lifetime pledge level a couple pages back. Read it if you care to educate yourself in the thought process of someone who is donating $250. I have no desire to repost that, and since you're quick with generalities, I'll keep it short. I've spent $1000s on MMOs and other video games throughout the past decade. Some I loved, some I hated, some broke my heart with how disappointing they were. CU will be one of those three. Right now they are saying all the right things, and no other MMO out or on the horizon is doing that for me. If I have a chance to help make the game that I want a reality, then it is worth my $250 donation. If it fails, at least I tried. I waste more than that in a month drinking beer with my friends.
If it does succeed, I will have saved myself hundreds of dollars over the course of my playing. I really don't see a down side here. If you want to label myself and the others that support this game as stupid gamers, that is by all means your choice. It doesn't matter to me.
Originally posted by ArrowAz Mark Jacobs (the developer) has already said this game will never go f2p.
Am I the only one who thinks that paying a life time sub for a game that could shut down at any time because of the lack of finacial funding, giving the game no option in the f2p market to growe just a really unthoughtout reaction to to try and drive the KS up from jaded gamers who hate f2p a little supspect ?
I don't kknnow, the whole thinking thatf2p play microtransaction a dollar a minute over losing 15.99 a month, just seems ass backwards to me. I think if this game doesn't get funded , the majority of MMO gamers have spoken loud and clear that they are tired of paying a monthly fee to get shit on by big names in the industry.
Archage is this game, anyone who wants to play CU, can play it in Archage. CU brings nothing new to the mmo genre, but arrogance, elitisnm and segragation to the genre.
And this(cu) isn't evena game, it is an idea, which archage IS a game.
Well, first try to write correctly, it's hard to understand what you are trying to say when there are random or switched letters and spaces all over the place...
Second, could you clarify the "suspect" part? what do you suspect? There have already been so many way people found to try and speak bad about the game, i would need a wall of text to give you all the reasons why you don't need to worry about it.
About the majority of MMO players saying they don't like the sub thing anymore, are you serious? Do you really think this is the only thing that is pushing away the players?
I have no idea of the characteristics of Archage, so i can't tell you what's new in CU. However, i can tell you than i haven't seen any arrogance, elitism or segregation in CU. I would like you to tell me where you saw any of this, or stop doing random accusations toward it.
We know CU is still an idea, but that's the point of KS, giving the money to an artist/dev/other so that he can work on his idea, and we can enjoy the result...
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic
...
Here is one thing you didn't understand about the game.
There is something that will be really important to a lot of players that'll play the game.
Something called reputation.
We want to know our enemy, to hate them and strike fear in their hearts, to be aknowledged for our prowess, to challenge the renowed enemy, to try winning against such powerful foe, or to be sought after for our skills, be it for fighting or crafting.
...
Here is one thing you don't understand about gamers:
Most of them will never get to be "that guy". And for the 90% of players who don't achieve that (and are never part of that guild) they rapidly lose any incentive to stay.
How do I know? Because I have been "that guy", I have been a member of "that guild" I have been at the top of the tree. And when you are there it is truely exhilarating... but it doesn't last.
I have also fought against "that guy" and "that guild" and "that faction" - for years. And I have watched whole player bases drift away and guilds collapse simply because "it's hopeless". I stayed and fought against impossible odds... but that is just me. I am probably only one of maybe 5% who will bother with that - because most people will not pay a subscription just to be a target.
So be careful what you wish for.
I agree, Ive been on both ends of the spectrum as well. Sometimes it is not about the glory, it is about the jounery, which in my opinion an RvR has none of, just aimless battles with no lanfd owner ship, no castle building,,,, no shadowbane.
I point you toward the last update about that, you are just showing your ignorance here.
Originally posted by Burntvet In general I can't think of anything worse for games/gamers: an MMO under KS WITH LTS (if such a thing were available). I personally would never back a KS for an MMO (too much money required, too many moving parts) and I would also never buy an LTS, so putting those together is probably the biggest possible red flag for me. I guess developers really do think gamers are stupid.
What does the letters LTS stand for?
If the devs were thinking we are stupid and just trying to make money, they wouldn't have pushed away a big part of the potential players away with expressions like "no PvE", "death penalty", "no handholding", "no fast travel" and "forced socialization". And i don't see any reason to try and deceive us if it's not to make money.
Originally posted by ArrowAz Mark Jacobs (the developer) has already said this game will never go f2p.
Am I the only one who thinks that paying a life time sub for a game that could shut down at any time because of the lack of finacial funding, giving the game no option in the f2p market to growe just a really unthoughtout reaction to to try and drive the KS up from jaded gamers who hate f2p a little supspect ?
I don't kknnow, the whole thinking thatf2p play microtransaction a dollar a minute over losing 15.99 a month, just seems ass backwards to me. I think if this game doesn't get funded , the majority of MMO gamers have spoken loud and clear that they are tired of paying a monthly fee to get shit on by big names in the industry.
Archage is this game, anyone who wants to play CU, can play it in Archage. CU brings nothing new to the mmo genre, but arrogance, elitisnm and segragation to the genre.
And this(cu) isn't evena game, it is an idea, which archage IS a game.
Well, first try to write correctly, it's hard to understand what you are trying to say when there are random or switched letters and spaces all over the place...
Second, could you clarify the "suspect" part? what do you suspect? There have already been so many way people found to try and speak bad about the game, i would need a wall of text to give you all the reasons why you don't need to worry about it.
About the majority of MMO players saying they don't like the sub thing anymore, are you serious? Do you really think this is the only thing that is pushing away the players?
I have no idea of the characteristics of Archage, so i can't tell you what's new in CU. However, i can tell you than i haven't seen any arrogance, elitism or segregation in CU. I would like you to tell me where you saw any of this, or stop doing random accusations toward it.
We know CU is still an idea, but that's the point of KS, giving the money to an artist/dev/other so that he can work on his idea, and we can enjoy the result...
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by Gyrus
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic
...
Here is one thing you didn't understand about the game.
There is something that will be really important to a lot of players that'll play the game.
Something called reputation.
We want to know our enemy, to hate them and strike fear in their hearts, to be aknowledged for our prowess, to challenge the renowed enemy, to try winning against such powerful foe, or to be sought after for our skills, be it for fighting or crafting.
...
Here is one thing you don't understand about gamers:
Most of them will never get to be "that guy". And for the 90% of players who don't achieve that (and are never part of that guild) they rapidly lose any incentive to stay.
How do I know? Because I have been "that guy", I have been a member of "that guild" I have been at the top of the tree. And when you are there it is truely exhilarating... but it doesn't last.
I have also fought against "that guy" and "that guild" and "that faction" - for years. And I have watched whole player bases drift away and guilds collapse simply because "it's hopeless". I stayed and fought against impossible odds... but that is just me. I am probably only one of maybe 5% who will bother with that - because most people will not pay a subscription just to be a target.
So be careful what you wish for.
I agree, Ive been on both ends of the spectrum as well. Sometimes it is not about the glory, it is about the jounery, which in my opinion an RvR has none of, just aimless battles with no lanfd owner ship, no castle building,,,, no shadowbane.
I point you toward the last update about that, you are just showing your ignorance here.
Originally posted by Burntvet In general I can't think of anything worse for games/gamers: an MMO under KS WITH LTS (if such a thing were available). I personally would never back a KS for an MMO (too much money required, too many moving parts) and I would also never buy an LTS, so putting those together is probably the biggest possible red flag for me. I guess developers really do think gamers are stupid.
What does the letters LTS stand for?
If the devs were thinking we are stupid and just trying to make money, they wouldn't have pushed away a big part of the potential players away with expressions like "no PvE", "death penalty", "no handholding", "no fast travel" and "forced socialization". And i don't see any reason to try and deceive us if it's not to make money.
Weird, i feel like i already wrote that...
LTS = lifetime subscription. Basically paying one price and never having to pay again to play the game. Not something I'd agree with, but to each their own.
Originally posted by Burntvet In general I can't think of anything worse for games/gamers: an MMO under KS WITH LTS (if such a thing were available). I personally would never back a KS for an MMO (too much money required, too many moving parts) and I would also never buy an LTS, so putting those together is probably the biggest possible red flag for me. I guess developers really do think gamers are stupid.
What does the letters LTS stand for?
If the devs were thinking we are stupid and just trying to make money, they wouldn't have pushed away a big part of the potential players away with expressions like "no PvE", "death penalty", "no handholding", "no fast travel" and "forced socialization". And i don't see any reason to try and deceive us if it's not to make money.
Weird, i feel like i already wrote that...
LTS = lifetime subscription. Basically paying one price and never having to pay again to play the game. Not something I'd agree with, but to each their own.
Thanks^^
About the LTS i think that's one of the reasons it's a limited tier. And we still have to buy the extensions. Again something going against making the most money possible. Unless you think they'll just do a bad game and shut it down after a few month. But MJ is investing personally $2M, and promised to not receive any of the money from KS for his salary, so i don't think doing a bad game would get them enough money to get back the $2M, they would need to sell a lot of boxes for that, and with all the copies they are offering, plus with the game being niche, i think it would prove quite hard to do.
Frankly, i don't see how they could get any benefit with the game unless they have enough sub for at least a year, and nobody will play a bad game longer than a few month, unless they run with the money and destroy their reputation, which wouldn't do them any good on the long term. Maybe i'm stupid for not seeing it, so can you tell me how they would get money without giving us a great game or destroying any possibility of working again in the gaming industry?
Comments
Yeah, I understand there are many reasons why people would prefer P2P, especially in a game that is RvR focused. But if given the option of either going B2P/F2P model or die, I think if the game is awesome, a lot of people would prefer it to survive. There will still be plenty of hardcore people that rise to the top and recognize each other. I don't think changing the payment model will remove the people that are intensly playing and owning all the time. If anything, it will add additional noob fodder for them to feed on.
I guess we just disagree on something that is speculation on both our parts. You think the payment model is the reason people get to know each other and create rivalries and F2P hurts that because more people are just passing through, I think it has more to do with the performance of the player/guild.
Here is one thing you don't understand about gamers:
Most of them will never get to be "that guy". And for the 90% of players who don't achieve that (and are never part of that guild) they rapidly lose any incentive to stay.
How do I know? Because I have been "that guy", I have been a member of "that guild" I have been at the top of the tree. And when you are there it is truely exhilarating... but it doesn't last.
I have also fought against "that guy" and "that guild" and "that faction" - for years. And I have watched whole player bases drift away and guilds collapse simply because "it's hopeless". I stayed and fought against impossible odds... but that is just me. I am probably only one of maybe 5% who will bother with that - because most people will not pay a subscription just to be a target.
So be careful what you wish for.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Very interesting point and definitely discussion worthy.
It *is* fun recognizing your enemy. What's *not* fun is being the nameless noob that just has to follow around the recognizable people. I wonder if there are ways to counteract this dynamic.
I thought about that and i admit i was hoping you wouldn't notice, but it's true there will still be a core of players staying and you'll get to know them. It is also true than because of the casual players it'll take more time to do so.
But it's not the only reason to avoid FTP. The most important reason i think would be than if you add things like skills or exp boost in a cash shop, the players that can't afford it will feel cheated and find it unfair, and you will also meet some over powered noobs that got that hard to kill just because they spend money and have in fact poor skills.
And if you only add comestics items, with the small audiance the game is aiming for, it will simply be not enough to keep the game running.
Lastly, even if CSE shut down the game, the players will get to keep it running on private servers, so although it doesn't improve anymore, it's still not the end.
"Be careful what you wish for...", funny enough it is the title of the second blog post MJ did on their site, was it intended?^^
It's true it's not funny to be the nameless noob for a lot of people. And i don't have any experience about it so what you said about guild crumbling and such is probably true, and i didn't know it. Personally, it doesn't bother me, i don't really like being in the spotlight. Although It's only a personal feeling, and so not very relevant here, there should be some people like me.
Also, not being known doesn't mean you can't have fun, and challenging impossible odds is part of the fun. Sadly, as you said, only a few people like difficulty. Some even go and try to make the game easier by cheating.
Still, even if there is a group of people you gave up on fighting, i think the world will be large enough to be able to avoid them to a certain extent, so i think it may not be as much of a problem.
I'm guessing you didn't see the most recent update http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/posts/459705. It is exactly "lanfd owner ship, and castle building." So if you claim that is what you like, check out the update.
I guess I am one of those 'stupid' gamers. Thanks for the label.
I explained in great detail my very rational reasons for supporting this game at the lifetime pledge level a couple pages back. Read it if you care to educate yourself in the thought process of someone who is donating $250. I have no desire to repost that, and since you're quick with generalities, I'll keep it short. I've spent $1000s on MMOs and other video games throughout the past decade. Some I loved, some I hated, some broke my heart with how disappointing they were. CU will be one of those three. Right now they are saying all the right things, and no other MMO out or on the horizon is doing that for me. If I have a chance to help make the game that I want a reality, then it is worth my $250 donation. If it fails, at least I tried. I waste more than that in a month drinking beer with my friends.
If it does succeed, I will have saved myself hundreds of dollars over the course of my playing. I really don't see a down side here. If you want to label myself and the others that support this game as stupid gamers, that is by all means your choice. It doesn't matter to me.
Well, first try to write correctly, it's hard to understand what you are trying to say when there are random or switched letters and spaces all over the place...
Second, could you clarify the "suspect" part? what do you suspect? There have already been so many way people found to try and speak bad about the game, i would need a wall of text to give you all the reasons why you don't need to worry about it.
About the majority of MMO players saying they don't like the sub thing anymore, are you serious? Do you really think this is the only thing that is pushing away the players?
I have no idea of the characteristics of Archage, so i can't tell you what's new in CU. However, i can tell you than i haven't seen any arrogance, elitism or segregation in CU. I would like you to tell me where you saw any of this, or stop doing random accusations toward it.
We know CU is still an idea, but that's the point of KS, giving the money to an artist/dev/other so that he can work on his idea, and we can enjoy the result...
I point you toward the last update about that, you are just showing your ignorance here.
What does the letters LTS stand for?
If the devs were thinking we are stupid and just trying to make money, they wouldn't have pushed away a big part of the potential players away with expressions like "no PvE", "death penalty", "no handholding", "no fast travel" and "forced socialization". And i don't see any reason to try and deceive us if it's not to make money.
Weird, i feel like i already wrote that...
LTS = lifetime subscription. Basically paying one price and never having to pay again to play the game. Not something I'd agree with, but to each their own.
Thanks^^
About the LTS i think that's one of the reasons it's a limited tier. And we still have to buy the extensions. Again something going against making the most money possible. Unless you think they'll just do a bad game and shut it down after a few month. But MJ is investing personally $2M, and promised to not receive any of the money from KS for his salary, so i don't think doing a bad game would get them enough money to get back the $2M, they would need to sell a lot of boxes for that, and with all the copies they are offering, plus with the game being niche, i think it would prove quite hard to do.
Frankly, i don't see how they could get any benefit with the game unless they have enough sub for at least a year, and nobody will play a bad game longer than a few month, unless they run with the money and destroy their reputation, which wouldn't do them any good on the long term. Maybe i'm stupid for not seeing it, so can you tell me how they would get money without giving us a great game or destroying any possibility of working again in the gaming industry?