Look i understand some people like that kind of gameplay, but we are talking about niche here, and catering to a niche in a niche game doesn't sound like a good idea. If you get the urge to play some cooperative shooter there are enough out there that are pretty well done. If this becomes some kind of DF/planetside meets minecraft we should have been told during the kickstarter, everything MJ said gave the impression it will be target locked based skill activations like DaoC, warhammer or whatever.
Personally i will nail him to that if need be because there is a huge difference between a MMOFPS and a MMORPG, i wouldn't have backed the former cause its just not my kind of game.
I tend to agree here. Although, I believe MJ hinted that there may be a hybrid targetting system, at least for Archers... I may be remembering that incorrectly, so don't quote me.
One thing to keep in mind is that DAoC primarily used tab-target and click-target systems, but there was also a ground target system for certain spells and abilities. This ground targetting was a kind of "poor man's aim-to-target" system. Granted, the ground target system in DAoC was VERY cumbersome. That said, I see no reason not to streamline the ground targetting and use a similar group of targetting systems in CU.
So, you have your tab-target-lock for basic short range abilities and attacks. You have your click-target-lock for basic long range abilities and attacks. And you have your ground target or aim-to-target type specialty abilities and attacks.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Originally posted by PerfArt One thing to consider is that this will be a very stat-driven game, as MJ has said. Given that, stats that affect accuracy should ostensibly be lent as much affect as others.
Secondly, this is a RPG, not a FPS, and as such your character's abilities should factor in a bit more than in twitch games. Skill comes in through strategy and choice based upon those abilities. Relegating just one/a few option to twitch and all others to tab targetting seems inconsistent.
All IMO, of course.
Just because it's a stat driven game that doesn't mean they need to have an accuracy stat, nor do they need even a block or evasion stat. I've played games that were very gear and stat heavy but that were free targeting action combat games. They just don't have those few stats because they don't need them, but there are a ton of other stats in MMO's that you can have so that doesn't really affect the targeting system either way I think.
What makes free targeting games more skill based IMO is that not only do you have the same skill based choices a tab target game has like you mention, but on top of that you also have to aim properly, position properly, dodge/block properly. It adds an entirely different layer of challenge onto combat and makes it that much more fun. It's a more evolved way of doing combat from tab targeting.
Edit: Holy shit why in the hell does this forum not have a spell check....
So you want to take RvR battles with hundreds of players participating and make it even more complicated for ... why? Why do we need a entirely different layer of challenge on top?
Imho, if the gameplay is so boring that it needs some kind of "try hitting the guy in the 8vs10 brawl going back and forth" it failed. Besides isn't that what DF is about?
My issue is that if you have free targeting you need to make each shot much more powerful because you have to assume some shots will miss even for a good player. Also you would completely ruin the class for players that are just not very good at FPS games. I backed a MMO with a focus on RvR, not planetside: arthurian edition.
Look i understand some people like that kind of gameplay, but we are talking about niche here, and catering to a niche in a niche game doesn't sound like a good idea. If you get the urge to play some cooperative shooter there are enough out there that are pretty well done. If this becomes some kind of DF/planetside meets minecraft we should have been told during the kickstarter, everything MJ said gave the impression it will be target locked based skill activations like DaoC, warhammer or whatever.
Personally i will nail him to that if need be because there is a huge difference between a MMOFPS and a MMORPG, i wouldn't have backed the former cause its just not my kind of game.
+1
If they have any type of free aim target system for any class, people are just going to spam dance jump around to avoid them... watch some darkfall 1v1 videos, such a disaster they are to watch so annoying. If you want that challenge go for it, just doubtful to see it in this game. You can't pull from the successes of daoc and WAR to back a game, and then change something like this so functional to combat...
But you can debate all day, I am 99.9% sure it will get removed (even if they add it) either in pre-dev, alpha or beta... No ones going to play an archer when their opponent runs around dancing all day avoiding their attacks claiming its "skill"
One way to look at this is to think of how this game came about to begin with. It is clear CU is a niche pure RvR game base upong traditional RPG and old school backgrounds. The players who backed the KS are mostly comprised of people who played old style rpg and mmos especially those with DAoC experience.
There clearly is very little aimed/reticle style combat from those games other than abilities with chances to miss regardless of aimed style combat (such as Asheron's Call). I cannot possibly see MJ deciding on a commpletely different system adapted from non-mmo genres or it completely goes against the expectations of the core player base. MJ has spoken of this easly on though and clearly stated a hybrid approach is under consideration.
Imho, if the gameplay is so boring that it needs some kind of "try hitting the guy in the 8vs10 brawl going back and forth" it failed. Besides isn't that what DF is about?
For me I don't care how awesome the rest of the game is and how much great gameplay and features they've packed into it. If the combat is tab target I just can't get past it because it's not fun and that's what you spend most of a game doing. But no DF's combat drives me nuts, I'm talking more along the lines of what TERA did. I've seen other games do a non targeting thing pretty decently as well (RaiderZ, Neverwinter and Dragon's Prophet come to mind) but really if I had to name just one game TERA is the one with the best combat overall.
If they have any type of free aim target system for any class, people are just going to spam dance jump around to avoid them... watch some darkfall 1v1 videos, such a disaster they are to watch so annoying. If you want that challenge go for it, just doubtful to see it in this game. You can't pull from the successes of daoc and WAR to back a game, and then change something like this so functional to combat...
But you can debate all day, I am 99.9% sure it will get removed (even if they add it) either in pre-dev, alpha or beta... No ones going to play an archer when their opponent runs around dancing all day avoiding their attacks claiming its "skill"
Many classes, like casters, some supporters or opposing archers won't be able to "dance jump around", as they will have to stand still to do their job. Also, in keep warfare, the people operating siege machinery or defending certain passages will be fairly stational.
I for one would be glad if strafejumpdancing around wasn't a viable melee combat tactic anymore. An acceleration based movement system and collision detection would be a good start for that. A more physically accurate, aim based archery system might actually have a place in such a scenario, otherwise we might end up having "mages with bows" - and we all know what MJ thinks of that.
I guess I am in the hybrid camp wherein ranged classes use tab-targetting for primary attacks, but also have access to a few aimed talents/skills for special circumstances.
But, moreover, I love the passion and diversity of opinion on this topic.
I am not a big fan of those who take an "Its my way or the highway" stance on these things. Game development takes a long time and there is a lot of give and take, concession and compromise, and great ideas that fizzle at implmentation. Anyone who thinks this game is going to incorporate only the ideas they like should prepare for some level of disappointment.
And, for those young ones needing attribtuon, look it up.
I saw her today at the reception In her glass was a bleeding man She was practiced at the art of deception Well, I could tell by her blood-stained hands
I don't mind skill shots. That said, I don't think it should be in the game either. I don't play archers so I honestly don't care, but goodluck landing aimed shots on your choice target in pvp unless they do something like general aim and autolock.... but then what's the point.
It seems like a lot of people, when considering the use of aimed shots, are thinking that it's going to be overly difficult to hit your target in a PvP situation becasue the enemy is going to be moving around a lot. I don't think the most effective way of using something like this would work that way very often.
The way I would use my uber-powerful aimed shot would be to work in conjunction with another player that has a strong root, stick a guy in a spot and unload whatever it is I have with a really simple aimed shot that anyone and their grandparents can pull off.
This leads to a question of balance. If you are going to give a class an uber-powerful aimed shot and well coordinated teams can use roots effectively, this idea becomes extremely difficult to balance.
I think some MOBA style skills could work along side a traditional tab target setup. Not quite the same thing you are suggesting but still has many of the same benefits, rewarding better and more intelligent play etc.
Originally posted by redcapp Please, no reticle targeting system. It's fine for action games, FPS games, etc.. but I don't want it in an MMORPG.
MJ already stated for sure it will be a tab targetted combat system.. but he wasn't sure on if it would be more hybrid like gw2 or not
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
See my comment in ps2 thread why fps is a bad idea, mind you, you get hacks in all games but when you go away from the targeting model is become a client side data mining pethra of information that hackers will use for aim bots and the rest. At least with targeting you end up with everyone on the same playing field. Now mind you there are other hacks (ghosting) which did happen occasionally on daoc but those are little compaired to most any FPS today.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
The only hack you get in a fps you don't get in a tab Target game is aimbots.
Every other hack, teleporting, invulnerability, hosting through walls, aiming through walls, radars etc..
Exist also In tab target games.
Then you have hacks that work with tab Target that don't work with fps like hacks to reduce the gcd, hacks to queue abilities so they all fire on the same gcd etc..
Hacking Is no more rife in ps2 than it is in several tab Target mmos I've played including gw2, war, wow, rift etc.. especially wow.
This may be overanalyzing things, but if you look at the age breakdown in the Age Poll thread (link below), you'll see nearly 40% of respondants are >35. I'm wondering if a "more mature" crowd (fancy talk for "old folk") isn't drawn to a more contemplative and strategic gameplay rather than a twitchy and hyperactive gameplay.
Hence, the general lean towards tab/click-targetting rather than aim-to target.
Tab targetting is good for a lot of things, I think theres a place for other forms of targetting mixed in as well though. I think a lot of fears of other targetting systems can be potentially handled by other factors.
Certainly I dont want a super twitchy game either, but if you create the game in a way that just wont have characters darting all over the screen at super speed then "aim based" targetting becomes more about adding choices instead of reflexes and connection speed.
I could see aiming being used to arc shots over a line of defenders to hit weaker targets in the rear, or aimed shots to the legs being used to slow opponents. Perhaps have a line of archers fire indiscriminately over the walls of a castle to keep the enemy pinned down behind cover.
Lots of potential options there when you arent just limited to hitting targets in a straight line (arrows dont fly in straight lines).
I feel a tab targeting system paired with LoL/DotA system skill shots would be a great hybrid system. It requires some skill when in combat but doesn't require a player to have ultimate twitch abilites to be effective. Ultimately this game is a PvP game. Players skill needs to be the focus of who wins or loses not who had bigger numbers while locked on via tab target. We know they are not planning on having GCD or "1-2-1-3-1-2-etc." ability rotation combat style. Just having tab targeting in my opinion is just too much hand holding in a PvP game. Just like /face or /stick. At a basic level with tab targeting, /face, and /stick you are letting a computer play for you.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
Comments
I tend to agree here. Although, I believe MJ hinted that there may be a hybrid targetting system, at least for Archers... I may be remembering that incorrectly, so don't quote me.
One thing to keep in mind is that DAoC primarily used tab-target and click-target systems, but there was also a ground target system for certain spells and abilities. This ground targetting was a kind of "poor man's aim-to-target" system. Granted, the ground target system in DAoC was VERY cumbersome. That said, I see no reason not to streamline the ground targetting and use a similar group of targetting systems in CU.
So, you have your tab-target-lock for basic short range abilities and attacks. You have your click-target-lock for basic long range abilities and attacks. And you have your ground target or aim-to-target type specialty abilities and attacks.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
+1
If they have any type of free aim target system for any class, people are just going to spam dance jump around to avoid them... watch some darkfall 1v1 videos, such a disaster they are to watch so annoying. If you want that challenge go for it, just doubtful to see it in this game. You can't pull from the successes of daoc and WAR to back a game, and then change something like this so functional to combat...
But you can debate all day, I am 99.9% sure it will get removed (even if they add it) either in pre-dev, alpha or beta... No ones going to play an archer when their opponent runs around dancing all day avoiding their attacks claiming its "skill"
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
No thanks,
i play mmo as a graphical bridge from P&P game.
we get stats to replace the meager strength, dex, hand eye etc. we possess as pathetic humans
One way to look at this is to think of how this game came about to begin with. It is clear CU is a niche pure RvR game base upong traditional RPG and old school backgrounds. The players who backed the KS are mostly comprised of people who played old style rpg and mmos especially those with DAoC experience.
There clearly is very little aimed/reticle style combat from those games other than abilities with chances to miss regardless of aimed style combat (such as Asheron's Call). I cannot possibly see MJ deciding on a commpletely different system adapted from non-mmo genres or it completely goes against the expectations of the core player base. MJ has spoken of this easly on though and clearly stated a hybrid approach is under consideration.
You stay sassy!
For me I don't care how awesome the rest of the game is and how much great gameplay and features they've packed into it. If the combat is tab target I just can't get past it because it's not fun and that's what you spend most of a game doing. But no DF's combat drives me nuts, I'm talking more along the lines of what TERA did. I've seen other games do a non targeting thing pretty decently as well (RaiderZ, Neverwinter and Dragon's Prophet come to mind) but really if I had to name just one game TERA is the one with the best combat overall.
Many classes, like casters, some supporters or opposing archers won't be able to "dance jump around", as they will have to stand still to do their job. Also, in keep warfare, the people operating siege machinery or defending certain passages will be fairly stational.
I for one would be glad if strafejumpdancing around wasn't a viable melee combat tactic anymore. An acceleration based movement system and collision detection would be a good start for that. A more physically accurate, aim based archery system might actually have a place in such a scenario, otherwise we might end up having "mages with bows" - and we all know what MJ thinks of that.
Excellent discussion w/ great ideas...
Thank you!
Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/
I guess I am in the hybrid camp wherein ranged classes use tab-targetting for primary attacks, but also have access to a few aimed talents/skills for special circumstances.
But, moreover, I love the passion and diversity of opinion on this topic.
I am not a big fan of those who take an "Its my way or the highway" stance on these things. Game development takes a long time and there is a lot of give and take, concession and compromise, and great ideas that fizzle at implmentation. Anyone who thinks this game is going to incorporate only the ideas they like should prepare for some level of disappointment.
And, for those young ones needing attribtuon, look it up.
I saw her today at the reception
In her glass was a bleeding man
She was practiced at the art of deception
Well, I could tell by her blood-stained hands
It seems like a lot of people, when considering the use of aimed shots, are thinking that it's going to be overly difficult to hit your target in a PvP situation becasue the enemy is going to be moving around a lot. I don't think the most effective way of using something like this would work that way very often.
The way I would use my uber-powerful aimed shot would be to work in conjunction with another player that has a strong root, stick a guy in a spot and unload whatever it is I have with a really simple aimed shot that anyone and their grandparents can pull off.
This leads to a question of balance. If you are going to give a class an uber-powerful aimed shot and well coordinated teams can use roots effectively, this idea becomes extremely difficult to balance.
I think some MOBA style skills could work along side a traditional tab target setup. Not quite the same thing you are suggesting but still has many of the same benefits, rewarding better and more intelligent play etc.
MJ already stated for sure it will be a tab targetted combat system.. but he wasn't sure on if it would be more hybrid like gw2 or not
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Every other hack, teleporting, invulnerability, hosting through walls, aiming through walls, radars etc..
Exist also In tab target games.
Then you have hacks that work with tab Target that don't work with fps like hacks to reduce the gcd, hacks to queue abilities so they all fire on the same gcd etc..
Hacking Is no more rife in ps2 than it is in several tab Target mmos I've played including gw2, war, wow, rift etc.. especially wow.
But I agree complaining about hacks is pointless
You need to work to avoid people hacking but it will be enviable
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
This may be overanalyzing things, but if you look at the age breakdown in the Age Poll thread (link below), you'll see nearly 40% of respondants are >35. I'm wondering if a "more mature" crowd (fancy talk for "old folk") isn't drawn to a more contemplative and strategic gameplay rather than a twitchy and hyperactive gameplay.
Hence, the general lean towards tab/click-targetting rather than aim-to target.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/383680/Poll-CU-Fan-Age.html
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Tab targetting is good for a lot of things, I think theres a place for other forms of targetting mixed in as well though. I think a lot of fears of other targetting systems can be potentially handled by other factors.
Certainly I dont want a super twitchy game either, but if you create the game in a way that just wont have characters darting all over the screen at super speed then "aim based" targetting becomes more about adding choices instead of reflexes and connection speed.
I could see aiming being used to arc shots over a line of defenders to hit weaker targets in the rear, or aimed shots to the legs being used to slow opponents. Perhaps have a line of archers fire indiscriminately over the walls of a castle to keep the enemy pinned down behind cover.
Lots of potential options there when you arent just limited to hitting targets in a straight line (arrows dont fly in straight lines).
As I understand it - if you have reticlule or "AIMed" targeting... dosen't your game engine then have to track projectiles?
Now I know this is possible - but doesn't it add a whole new level of complexity?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/mhoward48/media/OnwYv97.jpg.html
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
Ok but the class that you do play should have to manually enter the longitude, lattitude, and height of its attacks.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer