Originally posted by DavisFlight You can't be picky if you thought WoW was deep or well made...
Haha exactly this. WoW ruined the genre and now for the pat 7+ years every mmo wants to carbon copy their success which is not possible and completely stagnant the genre.
??? WoW used to be a great game. Even though I don't enjoy it anymore and don't like the direction it went in I don't let personal bias cloud my judgement when I make statements about a game. WoW does what it does and it does it well. It just doesn't suit me as it has changed through the years.
What is does is a boring mindless treadmill. And it was never a great game. It was an average to below average game, with a lot of flaws imported from EverQuest. But it was better in the past than it is now.
Literally millions of people disagree with you I'm sure. There is a reason it retains so many subs. I hated Cataclysm and I dislike MoP but to say the game is a bad mmo seems naive to me. It did many many things right and has earned my respect as one of the best mmos ever created. To the post above this one I have played EQ2. . Liked it alot but couldnt hold my interest for more than a couple of months. Couldnt stand that I could run vertically up mountains lol.
Lady gaga and Pewdiepie of youtube are also popular with millions of followers, doesnt make their music and lets plays respectively any good what so ever.
Popularity doesnt equal quality.
WoW was always a mediocre game loved by the masses by its ease of acess and dumbed down gameplay, just like LoL is now liked for the same reasons.
Yeah, but the opinion of some random forum guy doesn't make anything good or bad either. Popularity also doesn't equal lack of quality no matter what the MMORPG wannabe hipsters would like to believe.
He liked the game and you don't. Does this make you think that you're right or something?
WoW was one of the best games ever.
WoW was mediocre.
WoW was awesome.
WoW sucked.
At least have some kind of reasoning behind what you say. "WoW was dumbed down" doesn't say anything except that you may be incredibly inept at finding the depth that is in the gameplay. I mean, what do you even play? Could you at least recommend a game that this poor player that loves this mediocre experience can pick up?
You can love a game and it can still be mediocre. I love a lot of mediocre games. Me loving them does not make them suddenly deep.
Yes WoW was dumbed down in comparisson to previous MMOs, thats the whole reason it became so popular, it opened a door to a niche genre by making it more accesible. (Im not going to go in detail, this has been discussed for years)
Also, mainstream of w/e is always very shallow, always, because the majority of people are like that and are atracted to that kind of entertainment. And theres nothing wrong with that.
I play guild wars 2, like you do. Love the game and its a step above WoW. But i will never claim its a very deep game, it is deep enough for a mainstream game, and thats all it needs.
But if you really want a game that i play that is deep i would nominate the Civ series or right now on alpha kerbal space program
Originally posted by DavisFlight You can't be picky if you thought WoW was deep or well made...
Haha exactly this. WoW ruined the genre and now for the pat 7+ years every mmo wants to carbon copy their success which is not possible and completely stagnant the genre.
??? WoW used to be a great game. Even though I don't enjoy it anymore and don't like the direction it went in I don't let personal bias cloud my judgement when I make statements about a game. WoW does what it does and it does it well. It just doesn't suit me as it has changed through the years.
What is does is a boring mindless treadmill. And it was never a great game. It was an average to below average game, with a lot of flaws imported from EverQuest. But it was better in the past than it is now.
Literally millions of people disagree with you I'm sure. There is a reason it retains so many subs. I hated Cataclysm and I dislike MoP but to say the game is a bad mmo seems naive to me. It did many many things right and has earned my respect as one of the best mmos ever created. To the post above this one I have played EQ2. . Liked it alot but couldnt hold my interest for more than a couple of months. Couldnt stand that I could run vertically up mountains lol.
Lady gaga and Pewdiepie of youtube are also popular with millions of followers, doesnt make their music and lets plays respectively any good what so ever.
Popularity doesnt equal quality.
WoW was always a mediocre game loved by the masses by its ease of acess and dumbed down gameplay, just like LoL is now liked for the same reasons.
Yeah, but the opinion of some random forum guy doesn't make anything good or bad either. Popularity also doesn't equal lack of quality no matter what the MMORPG wannabe hipsters would like to believe.
He liked the game and you don't. Does this make you think that you're right or something?
WoW was one of the best games ever.
WoW was mediocre.
WoW was awesome.
WoW sucked.
At least have some kind of reasoning behind what you say. "WoW was dumbed down" doesn't say anything except that you may be incredibly inept at finding the depth that is in the gameplay. I mean, what do you even play? Could you at least recommend a game that this poor player that loves this mediocre experience can pick up?
You can love a game and it can still be mediocre. I love a lot of mediocre games. Me loving them does not make them suddenly deep.
Yes WoW was dumbed down in comparisson to previous MMOs, thats the whole reason it became so popular, it opened a door to a niche genre by making it more accesible. (Im not going to go in detail, this has been discussed for years)
Also, mainstream of w/e is always very shallow, always, because the majority of people are like that and are atracted to that kind of entertainment. And theres nothing wrong with that.
I play guild wars 2, like you do. Love the game and its a step above WoW. But i will never claim its a very deep game, it is deep enough for a mainstream game, and thats all it needs.
But if you really want a game that i play that is deep i would nominate the Civ series or right now on alpha kerbal space program
WoW was dumbed down and that is why it has become popular? Are you serious? Even vanilla WoW had huge numbers and was immensely popular.
Originally posted by DavisFlight You can't be picky if you thought WoW was deep or well made...
Haha exactly this. WoW ruined the genre and now for the pat 7+ years every mmo wants to carbon copy their success which is not possible and completely stagnant the genre.
??? WoW used to be a great game. Even though I don't enjoy it anymore and don't like the direction it went in I don't let personal bias cloud my judgement when I make statements about a game. WoW does what it does and it does it well. It just doesn't suit me as it has changed through the years.
What is does is a boring mindless treadmill. And it was never a great game. It was an average to below average game, with a lot of flaws imported from EverQuest. But it was better in the past than it is now.
Literally millions of people disagree with you I'm sure. There is a reason it retains so many subs. I hated Cataclysm and I dislike MoP but to say the game is a bad mmo seems naive to me. It did many many things right and has earned my respect as one of the best mmos ever created. To the post above this one I have played EQ2. . Liked it alot but couldnt hold my interest for more than a couple of months. Couldnt stand that I could run vertically up mountains lol.
Lady gaga and Pewdiepie of youtube are also popular with millions of followers, doesnt make their music and lets plays respectively any good what so ever.
Popularity doesnt equal quality.
WoW was always a mediocre game loved by the masses by its ease of acess and dumbed down gameplay, just like LoL is now liked for the same reasons.
Yeah, but the opinion of some random forum guy doesn't make anything good or bad either. Popularity also doesn't equal lack of quality no matter what the MMORPG wannabe hipsters would like to believe.
He liked the game and you don't. Does this make you think that you're right or something?
WoW was one of the best games ever.
WoW was mediocre.
WoW was awesome.
WoW sucked.
At least have some kind of reasoning behind what you say. "WoW was dumbed down" doesn't say anything except that you may be incredibly inept at finding the depth that is in the gameplay. I mean, what do you even play? Could you at least recommend a game that this poor player that loves this mediocre experience can pick up?
People just have a habit of bashing on WoW. No other game gets as much hate and there is a reason for this. These forums are full of trolls though. I don't expect maturity from most of the people on here anymore. WoW isn't my favorite game. But the feeling I got when I used to play it was very good. The world was huge. They had a ton of raids. Open world pvp used to be awesome. The dungeons were great. (this was all before dungeon and raid finder mind you.) The game WAS really deep to ME regardless of what you might say. If you want a very very small portion of the list of games I have played just refer to my profile. I have literally played..........damn................has to be well over 100 mmos if I count them all up. I am completely non biased and have even got kicked out of guilds for saying other mmos are good in certain games. If a game has fine points I will point them out. If it has weaknesses I will point those out. I don't have some odd emotional tie to certain games that I have to get on the forums and bash them. You remind me of a certain other forum user that gets on the Darkfall Forums and CONSTANTLY bashes that game. Thats ridiculous trolling and not the point of these forums. That user shall remain nameless but people hunt alot of deer where I am from...........................if you catch my drift.
You can check my previous posts if you like, ive never bashed WoW. I also played for maybe 3 weeks, got no sentimental atachment to it. But theres no more to WoW than meets the eye. Creating an optimal skill build was always pretty easy, relies on the trinity for all its high end content, set rotations of skills for everyone, lower penalty in death etc. When you can predict exactly how something will go by not even watching it 90% of the time, then its not very deep.
You can love a game and it can still be mediocre. I love a lot of mediocre games. Me loving them does not make them suddenly deep.
Yes WoW was dumbed down in comparisson to previous MMOs, thats the whole reason it became so popular, it opened a door to a niche genre by making it more accesible. (Im not going to go in detail, this has been discussed for years)
Also, mainstream of w/e is always very shallow, always, because the majority of people are like that and are atracted to that kind of entertainment. And theres nothing wrong with that.
I play guild wars 2, like you do. Love the game and its a step above WoW. But i will never claim its a very deep game, it is deep enough for a mainstream game, and thats all it needs.
But if you really want a game that i play that is deep i would nominate the Civ series or right now on alpha kerbal space program
Quality is in the eye of the beholder which seems to be something that the majority of posters on this forum are easily confused by. If you can give me a single reasons as to why WoW is mediocre then I will be proven wrong, but keep in mind the reasons have to be facts and not your opinion. You can't do it. You think WoW lacks depth. I don't really care about depth.
Having an opinion and defending it is fine, but you can't state, as a fact, that a certain game is mediocre. It is mediocre based on your previous experiences with the genre, but someone else will have a completely different viewpoint because they have a completely different background.
Originally posted by DavisFlight You can't be picky if you thought WoW was deep or well made...
Haha exactly this. WoW ruined the genre and now for the pat 7+ years every mmo wants to carbon copy their success which is not possible and completely stagnant the genre.
??? WoW used to be a great game. Even though I don't enjoy it anymore and don't like the direction it went in I don't let personal bias cloud my judgement when I make statements about a game. WoW does what it does and it does it well. It just doesn't suit me as it has changed through the years.
What is does is a boring mindless treadmill. And it was never a great game. It was an average to below average game, with a lot of flaws imported from EverQuest. But it was better in the past than it is now.
Literally millions of people disagree with you I'm sure. There is a reason it retains so many subs. I hated Cataclysm and I dislike MoP but to say the game is a bad mmo seems naive to me. It did many many things right and has earned my respect as one of the best mmos ever created. To the post above this one I have played EQ2. . Liked it alot but couldnt hold my interest for more than a couple of months. Couldnt stand that I could run vertically up mountains lol.
Lady gaga and Pewdiepie of youtube are also popular with millions of followers, doesnt make their music and lets plays respectively any good what so ever.
Popularity doesnt equal quality.
WoW was always a mediocre game loved by the masses by its ease of acess and dumbed down gameplay, just like LoL is now liked for the same reasons.
Yeah, but the opinion of some random forum guy doesn't make anything good or bad either. Popularity also doesn't equal lack of quality no matter what the MMORPG wannabe hipsters would like to believe.
He liked the game and you don't. Does this make you think that you're right or something?
WoW was one of the best games ever.
WoW was mediocre.
WoW was awesome.
WoW sucked.
At least have some kind of reasoning behind what you say. "WoW was dumbed down" doesn't say anything except that you may be incredibly inept at finding the depth that is in the gameplay. I mean, what do you even play? Could you at least recommend a game that this poor player that loves this mediocre experience can pick up?
You can love a game and it can still be mediocre. I love a lot of mediocre games. Me loving them does not make them suddenly deep.
Yes WoW was dumbed down in comparisson to previous MMOs, thats the whole reason it became so popular, it opened a door to a niche genre by making it more accesible. (Im not going to go in detail, this has been discussed for years)
Also, mainstream of w/e is always very shallow, always, because the majority of people are like that and are atracted to that kind of entertainment. And theres nothing wrong with that.
I play guild wars 2, like you do. Love the game and its a step above WoW. But i will never claim its a very deep game, it is deep enough for a mainstream game, and thats all it needs.
But if you really want a game that i play that is deep i would nominate the Civ series or right now on alpha kerbal space program
WoW was dumbed down and that is why it has become popular? Are you serious? Even vanilla WoW had huge numbers and was immensely popular.
When i say WoW im including its vanilla time. It was indeed less deep than games before it, thats why it rose in popularity so fast. By 2005 it had about 1 million subs, unheard of at the time.
Rest exp, less downtime between fights, lower death penalties etc, were the main contributions to this.
Yeah, but the opinion of some random forum guy doesn't make anything good or bad either. Popularity also doesn't equal lack of quality no matter what the MMORPG wannabe hipsters would like to believe.
He liked the game and you don't. Does this make you think that you're right or something?
WoW was one of the best games ever.
WoW was mediocre.
WoW was awesome.
WoW sucked.
At least have some kind of reasoning behind what you say. "WoW was dumbed down" doesn't say anything except that you may be incredibly inept at finding the depth that is in the gameplay. I mean, what do you even play? Could you at least recommend a game that this poor player that loves this mediocre experience can pick up?
You can love a game and it can still be mediocre. I love a lot of mediocre games. Me loving them does not make them suddenly deep.
Yes WoW was dumbed down in comparisson to previous MMOs, thats the whole reason it became so popular, it opened a door to a niche genre by making it more accesible. (Im not going to go in detail, this has been discussed for years)
Also, mainstream of w/e is always very shallow, always, because the majority of people are like that and are atracted to that kind of entertainment. And theres nothing wrong with that.
I play guild wars 2, like you do. Love the game and its a step above WoW. But i will never claim its a very deep game, it is deep enough for a mainstream game, and thats all it needs.
But if you really want a game that i play that is deep i would nominate the Civ series or right now on alpha kerbal space program
See, you're doing it again. You are just stating it is dumbed down without offering anything to back it up. You call it mediocre because... I think it's because you believe it to be fact. I'm writing a web series with one of my buddies about EQ using EQ 1999 and EQ might be the ultimate in dumbed down experiences in my opinion. While relentless in it's punishment for death and it's xp curve, it actually plays like retarded turtle. That came before WoW. I mean, if we are talking straight gameplay, WoW blew a lot of those older MMOs out of the water.
I agree that WoW made their game more accessible. But accessibility does not equal shallow, dumbed down or mediocre. It did open the doors for the genre and it has probably had too much influence on what was made after it. But that does not equal what you are saying. You are saying mediocre without actually saying why.
Mainsteam is not always very shallow. That might be one of the most ridiculous points I've ever read. Was Radiohead shallow? What about some of the great comedians? Was George Carlin shallow? Was The Godfather shallow? Was A Tale of Two Cities shallow?
Going outside of the genre to find a game seems a little strange since the OP actually asked for an MMORPG. But whatever. I play Civ too and there are a ton of great single player experiences you can have. Just like, in my opinion, there are a lot of great MMORPG experiences you can have.
You can love a game and it can still be mediocre. I love a lot of mediocre games. Me loving them does not make them suddenly deep.
Yes WoW was dumbed down in comparisson to previous MMOs, thats the whole reason it became so popular, it opened a door to a niche genre by making it more accesible. (Im not going to go in detail, this has been discussed for years)
Also, mainstream of w/e is always very shallow, always, because the majority of people are like that and are atracted to that kind of entertainment. And theres nothing wrong with that.
I play guild wars 2, like you do. Love the game and its a step above WoW. But i will never claim its a very deep game, it is deep enough for a mainstream game, and thats all it needs.
But if you really want a game that i play that is deep i would nominate the Civ series or right now on alpha kerbal space program
Quality is in the eye of the beholder which seems to be something that the majority of posters on this forum are easily confused by. If you can give me a single reasons as to why WoW is mediocre then I will be proven wrong, but keep in mind the reasons have to be facts and not your opinion. You can't do it. You think WoW lacks depth. I don't really care about depth.
Having an opinion and defending it is fine, but you can't state, as a fact, that a certain game is mediocre. It is mediocre based on your previous experiences with the genre, but someone else will have a completely different viewpoint because they have a completely different background.
I want to point out to you something that you and coldog might be missing. Ive never said previous mmos werent mediocre either(notice i said games). MMOs until recently were glorified chat rooms. Most were bad designed games with lots of problems.
A game can be deep and still mediocre. A game doesnt need to be deep to be good.
Maybe my sentecne construction at the begginign didnt make it ovious(english isnt my first language sorry) But when i used the lady gaga and pewdiepie thing to say it doesnt make them any good i was trying to just point out that saying something is good because a lot of other people like it its not very smart to the op
You can love a game and it can still be mediocre. I love a lot of mediocre games. Me loving them does not make them suddenly deep.
Yes WoW was dumbed down in comparisson to previous MMOs, thats the whole reason it became so popular, it opened a door to a niche genre by making it more accesible. (Im not going to go in detail, this has been discussed for years)
Also, mainstream of w/e is always very shallow, always, because the majority of people are like that and are atracted to that kind of entertainment. And theres nothing wrong with that.
I play guild wars 2, like you do. Love the game and its a step above WoW. But i will never claim its a very deep game, it is deep enough for a mainstream game, and thats all it needs.
But if you really want a game that i play that is deep i would nominate the Civ series or right now on alpha kerbal space program
Quality is in the eye of the beholder which seems to be something that the majority of posters on this forum are easily confused by. If you can give me a single reasons as to why WoW is mediocre then I will be proven wrong, but keep in mind the reasons have to be facts and not your opinion. You can't do it. You think WoW lacks depth. I don't really care about depth.
Having an opinion and defending it is fine, but you can't state, as a fact, that a certain game is mediocre. It is mediocre based on your previous experiences with the genre, but someone else will have a completely different viewpoint because they have a completely different background.
I want to point out to you something that you and coldog might be missing. Ive never said previous mmos werent mediocre either(notice i said games). MMOs until recently were glorified chat rooms. Most were bad designed games with lots of problems.
A game can be deep and still mediocre. You can love a game and it doenst need to be deep for it.
You're completely missing the point, but that's okay.
When i say WoW im including its vanilla time. It was indeed less deep than games before it, thats why it rose in popularity so fast. By 2005 it had about 1 million subs, unheard of at the time.
Rest exp, less downtime between fights, lower death penalties etc, were the main contributions to this.
None of those things means it has less depth. Maybe that's where the disconnection is. You think that harsh death penalties, harsher leveling curves and more downtime between fight = depth. Depth requires that choices be made. In your examples, there are no choices to be made.
Real MMO players don't take the WoW bashers seriously. Obviously they are bashing WoW to overcompensate for something. Just like middle aged men buy fancy sports cars to overcompensate certain limitations they have. I'm willing to bet very few of these 'WoW bashers" were very good at whatever MMO they deem superior.
WoW is popular for a reason. Being a shallow shell of a game isn't one of them.
When i say WoW im including its vanilla time. It was indeed less deep than games before it, thats why it rose in popularity so fast. By 2005 it had about 1 million subs, unheard of at the time.
Rest exp, less downtime between fights, lower death penalties etc, were the main contributions to this.
None of those things means it has less depth. Maybe that's where the disconnection is. You think that harsh death penalties, harsher leveling curves and more downtime between fight = depth. Depth requires that choices be made. In your examples, there are no choices to be made.
When you know before an encounter that you will recover HP quickly or that you will not take heavy loses after a death you are indeed taking less choices because theres less factors you have to consider for your next action
I watch extra credits religiously no need to point it out to me.
When i say WoW im including its vanilla time. It was indeed less deep than games before it, thats why it rose in popularity so fast. By 2005 it had about 1 million subs, unheard of at the time.
Rest exp, less downtime between fights, lower death penalties etc, were the main contributions to this.
None of those things means it has less depth. Maybe that's where the disconnection is. You think that harsh death penalties, harsher leveling curves and more downtime between fight = depth. Depth requires that choices be made. In your examples, there are no choices to be made.
When you know after an encounter that you will recover HP quickly or that you will not take heavy loses after a death you are indeed taking less choices because theres less factors you have to consider for your next action
I watch extra credits religiously no need to point it out to me.
Ok, so we've reduced it to one thing. Health recovery. You are saying that slow health recovery has more depth than fast health recovery and that WoW has less depth than previous games because your health recovers faster than those games.
So lets use your example with a melee class. I would say that you actually have more actions to consider with fast health recovery. If your health recovers quickly, you can kill or wait. If your health recovers slowly, you can only wait. Under your conditions (which I personally don't think constitute depth), WoW has more depth.
So, the original post was asking for a recommendation for an MMORPG that could spark his interest. He liked Wrath of the Lich King in WOW, which is an example of his gameplay style.. This thread has turned into a WOW bashfest.
Lets get back on topic.
I recommend waiting for
Wildstar and The Elder Scrolls Online.
I really do not see very many games with the storyline and depth that WOTLK gave us. But, Guildwars2 certainly has alot of good elements that could keep you very entertained until one of these other games launch.
When i say WoW im including its vanilla time. It was indeed less deep than games before it, thats why it rose in popularity so fast. By 2005 it had about 1 million subs, unheard of at the time.
Rest exp, less downtime between fights, lower death penalties etc, were the main contributions to this.
None of those things means it has less depth. Maybe that's where the disconnection is. You think that harsh death penalties, harsher leveling curves and more downtime between fight = depth. Depth requires that choices be made. In your examples, there are no choices to be made.
When you know after an encounter that you will recover HP quickly or that you will not take heavy loses after a death you are indeed taking less choices because theres less factors you have to consider for your next action
I watch extra credits religiously no need to point it out to me.
Ok, so we've reduced it to one thing. Health recovery. You are saying that slow health recovery has more depth than fast health recovery and that WoW has less depth than previous games because your health recovers faster than those games.
So lets use your example with a melee class. I would say that you actually have more actions to consider with fast health recovery. If your health recovers quickly, you can kill or wait. If your health recovers slowly, you can only wait. Under your conditions (which I personally don't think constitute depth), WoW has more depth.
Well i dont think health recovery is the only one but ill follow this train. You can choose to use a potion, you can choose to call a healer friend to heal you, you can party with someone else near to you and let him take agroo and switch between the two of you so that you dont stop killing....and thats all i can examples i can care to give right now cause i gotta go to sleep.
Having fast recovery eliminates all of those possible decisions.
Also according to the EC video you just posted it said "Depth is entirely a mental activity if players cant think around, should i use my rocket launcher or my machine gun, if they cant make a coincious CHOICE about it, then theres no depth."
That does make me right? i dunno right now im kinda tired to think about this.
Also i think i mistyped i ment Before an encounter
So, the original post was asking for a recommendation for an MMORPG that could spark his interest. He liked Wrath of the Lich King in WOW, which is an example of his gameplay style.. This thread has turned into a WOW bashfest.
Lets get back on topic.
I recommend waiting for
Wildstar and The Elder Scrolls Online.
I really do not see very many games with the storyline and depth that WOTLK gave us. But, Guildwars2 certainly has alot of good elements that could keep you very entertained until one of these other games launch.
I actually am currently playing GW2 and I do love alot about it. Its just that the end game doesnt have a big draw for me. I think its because of the lack of raids. I love GW2 and will play it for years. But its definitely a more casual type of experience for me.
Originally posted by DavisFlight You can't be picky if you thought WoW was deep or well made...
Wow never was a great, or good game. If anyone thought so it is just because one was too immature to know what's wrong with feeling it is a good game. It is same immaturity as 5 years old felt Teletubbies were the perfect TV show ever but will regret his mind when he's 2 years older than 5 years old.
The only two MMORPG games that were real and respectful were UO and EQ. They invented and opened new things individually. WoW only copied them and extended the lifetime of contents UO and EQ invented. And this 'life extension' of contents would had been what one had felt if anyone have experienced those two games for more than 3 months.
Plus, the implement of EQ&UO contents of WoW wasn't really better than the old ones. It was just easier and slightly more accessible to gather more crowds to make more money (just to make more money) which eventually failed WoW itself. But Blizzard is a good business-oriented company they just knew how to extend WoW's Coma status lifetime as long as possible. That's where most people really hate about WoW and Blizzard whether they recognize themselves or not.
Originally posted by DavisFlight You can't be picky if you thought WoW was deep or well made...
Wow never was a great, or good game. If anyone thought so it is just because one was too immature to know what's wrong with feeling it is a good game. It is same immaturity as 5 years old felt Teletubbies were the perfect TV show ever but will regret his mind when he's 2 years older than 5 years old.
The only two MMORPG games that were real and respectful were UO and EQ. They invented and opened new things individually. WoW only copied them and extended the lifetime of contents UO and EQ invented. And this 'life extension' of contents would had been what one had felt if anyone have experienced those two games for more than 3 months.
Plus, the implement of EQ&UO contents of WoW wasn't really better than the old ones. It was just easier and slightly more accessible to gather more crowds to make more money (just to make more money) which eventually failed WoW itself. But Blizzard is a good business-oriented company they just knew how to extend WoW's Coma status lifetime as long as possible. That's where most people really hate about WoW and Blizzard whether they recognize themselves or not.
This is one of the most ridiculous post I have ever read on this site.
Originally posted by DavisFlight You can't be picky if you thought WoW was deep or well made...
Wow never was a great, or good game. If anyone thought so it is just because one was too immature to know what's wrong with feeling it is a good game. It is same immaturity as 5 years old felt Teletubbies were the perfect TV show ever but will regret his mind when he's 2 years older than 5 years old.
The only two MMORPG games that were real and respectful were UO and EQ. They invented and opened new things individually. WoW only copied them and extended the lifetime of contents UO and EQ invented. And this 'life extension' of contents would had been what one had felt if anyone have experienced those two games for more than 3 months.
Plus, the implement of EQ&UO contents of WoW wasn't really better than the old ones. It was just easier and slightly more accessible to gather more crowds to make more money (just to make more money) which eventually failed WoW itself. But Blizzard is a good business-oriented company they just knew how to extend WoW's Coma status lifetime as long as possible. That's where most people really hate about WoW and Blizzard whether they recognize themselves or not.
This is one of the most ridiculous post I have ever read on this site.
So does Justin Bieber fans argue against Elvis Presley fans. To them Justin Bieber is really better artist than Elvis. But if they are lucky and intelligent enough, they will find the irrecoverable difference between them some day and appreciate Elvis ever existed. So do you.
Originally posted by DavisFlight You can't be picky if you thought WoW was deep or well made...
Wow never was a great, or good game. If anyone thought so it is just because one was too immature to know what's wrong with feeling it is a good game. It is same immaturity as 5 years old felt Teletubbies were the perfect TV show ever but will regret his mind when he's 2 years older than 5 years old.
The only two MMORPG games that were real and respectful were UO and EQ. They invented and opened new things individually. WoW only copied them and extended the lifetime of contents UO and EQ invented. And this 'life extension' of contents would had been what one had felt if anyone have experienced those two games for more than 3 months.
Plus, the implement of EQ&UO contents of WoW wasn't really better than the old ones. It was just easier and slightly more accessible to gather more crowds to make more money (just to make more money) which eventually failed WoW itself. But Blizzard is a good business-oriented company they just knew how to extend WoW's Coma status lifetime as long as possible. That's where most people really hate about WoW and Blizzard whether they recognize themselves or not.
This is one of the most ridiculous post I have ever read on this site.
So does Justin Bieber fans argue against Elvis Presley fans. To them Justin Bieber is really better artist than Elvis. But if they are lucky and intelligent enough, they will find the irrecoverable difference between them some day and appreciate Elvis ever existed. So do you.
One day you may grow up and realize that opinions can never be asserted to a factual claim.
I'm pretty much in the same boat, nothing really stands out at the moment. The only game that even blips on my radar at the moment is The Repopulation. I just hope it pans out.
Well i dont think health recovery is the only one but ill follow this train. You can choose to use a potion, you can choose to call a healer friend to heal you, you can party with someone else near to you and let him take agroo and switch between the two of you so that you dont stop killing....and thats all i can examples i can care to give right now cause i gotta go to sleep.
Having fast recovery eliminates all of those possible decisions.
Also according to the EC video you just posted it said "Depth is entirely a mental activity if players cant think around, should i use my rocket launcher or my machine gun, if they cant make a coincious CHOICE about it, then theres no depth."
That does make me right? i dunno right now im kinda tired to think about this.
Also i think i mistyped i ment Before an encounter
I am going to agree with you that there is a way to look at health regen as a form of depth. I don't personally view it as fun or interesting and feel like it takes away from the experience, but I can see your perspective now.
The problem now is that you can do all those things that you listed in WoW. In WoW, your health regen still happens fairly slowly, just not as slow as EQ. People often took a bunch of potions with them or rolled with a healer or asked for a rez or whatever. People still sit down to eat food or drink... drink. The only functional difference is how long it took which adds no depth.
You played WoW for 3 weeks and decided it was dumbed down, mediocre and had no depth. The things you list that you think have more depth actually don't, you haven't actually named anything that was dumbed down and your opinion of the game being mediocre is based on a mere 3 weeks of play. How could you possess such a firm opinion about this game?
I personally think the market is not necessarily in a bad place. For all people want to slap the WoW Clone label on them -- and to various degrees they might borrow ideas that WoW also employed -- there are several major MMOs that have targeted a specific area and done those areas well. GW2, TSW, and even TOR have all done one or more major things differently or even better than WoW that I have enjoyed (yes, even though TOR is a poor WoW port to Star Wars in most respects, if you want voice overs, and a story-based leveling experience, you can go play a single player game, er, I mean, go play TOR!). Neverwinter has the Foundry. Defiance is a shooter loosely tied into a TV show. WildStar blends TERA with WoW's PvP and raiding, and throws in housing. I've barely played RIFT and LotRO, but I'm sure they do some things that stand out too. There's even DayZ for the "It's only fun if you have to start over when you die" crowd.
For all the whining about WoW clones, I think the player in 2013 has several good options for sampling some of the different things that can be done with MMOs. Could there stand to be even more diversity? Absolutely. The sandbox and sim crowd is still waiting for their game (ArcheAge might fill some of that demand, but I'm not sure the setting is compelling enough to satisfy the greater portion of those players).
But, what none of these games offers to players outside of the Kool Kids that get how amazing their game is, is the feeling of home that gets people to log in for an hour or ten most nights of the week for years. Everybody has a theory about what's missing and whether or not it can be found again, but I think most people who have drifted away from their favorite game and are looking for a new home recognize that something is.
Originally posted by DavisFlight You can't be picky if you thought WoW was deep or well made...
Even thou I do not play WoW anymore, you do realize that WoW was indeed deep and definitely well made hence their success.
The issue now with WoW is creating content that isn't bland and repetitive, but thinking WoW was not "deep" or "well made" tends to make me believe you are being sarcastic at the most.
dozens and dozens....all right, let's assume the minimum, two dozen, that's 24...
Since Wotlk...that's 2008...
Rounding down...five years...call it 60 months...
Two and a half months per trial...are new titles even releasing that quickly? Or is there some hyperbole here?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
You can love a game and it can still be mediocre. I love a lot of mediocre games. Me loving them does not make them suddenly deep.
Yes WoW was dumbed down in comparisson to previous MMOs, thats the whole reason it became so popular, it opened a door to a niche genre by making it more accesible. (Im not going to go in detail, this has been discussed for years)
Also, mainstream of w/e is always very shallow, always, because the majority of people are like that and are atracted to that kind of entertainment. And theres nothing wrong with that.
I play guild wars 2, like you do. Love the game and its a step above WoW. But i will never claim its a very deep game, it is deep enough for a mainstream game, and thats all it needs.
But if you really want a game that i play that is deep i would nominate the Civ series or right now on alpha kerbal space program
WoW was dumbed down and that is why it has become popular? Are you serious? Even vanilla WoW had huge numbers and was immensely popular.
You can check my previous posts if you like, ive never bashed WoW. I also played for maybe 3 weeks, got no sentimental atachment to it. But theres no more to WoW than meets the eye. Creating an optimal skill build was always pretty easy, relies on the trinity for all its high end content, set rotations of skills for everyone, lower penalty in death etc. When you can predict exactly how something will go by not even watching it 90% of the time, then its not very deep.
Quality is in the eye of the beholder which seems to be something that the majority of posters on this forum are easily confused by. If you can give me a single reasons as to why WoW is mediocre then I will be proven wrong, but keep in mind the reasons have to be facts and not your opinion. You can't do it. You think WoW lacks depth. I don't really care about depth.
Having an opinion and defending it is fine, but you can't state, as a fact, that a certain game is mediocre. It is mediocre based on your previous experiences with the genre, but someone else will have a completely different viewpoint because they have a completely different background.
When i say WoW im including its vanilla time. It was indeed less deep than games before it, thats why it rose in popularity so fast. By 2005 it had about 1 million subs, unheard of at the time.
Rest exp, less downtime between fights, lower death penalties etc, were the main contributions to this.
See, you're doing it again. You are just stating it is dumbed down without offering anything to back it up. You call it mediocre because... I think it's because you believe it to be fact. I'm writing a web series with one of my buddies about EQ using EQ 1999 and EQ might be the ultimate in dumbed down experiences in my opinion. While relentless in it's punishment for death and it's xp curve, it actually plays like retarded turtle. That came before WoW. I mean, if we are talking straight gameplay, WoW blew a lot of those older MMOs out of the water.
I agree that WoW made their game more accessible. But accessibility does not equal shallow, dumbed down or mediocre. It did open the doors for the genre and it has probably had too much influence on what was made after it. But that does not equal what you are saying. You are saying mediocre without actually saying why.
Mainsteam is not always very shallow. That might be one of the most ridiculous points I've ever read. Was Radiohead shallow? What about some of the great comedians? Was George Carlin shallow? Was The Godfather shallow? Was A Tale of Two Cities shallow?
Going outside of the genre to find a game seems a little strange since the OP actually asked for an MMORPG. But whatever. I play Civ too and there are a ton of great single player experiences you can have. Just like, in my opinion, there are a lot of great MMORPG experiences you can have.
I want to point out to you something that you and coldog might be missing. Ive never said previous mmos werent mediocre either(notice i said games). MMOs until recently were glorified chat rooms. Most were bad designed games with lots of problems.
A game can be deep and still mediocre. A game doesnt need to be deep to be good.
Maybe my sentecne construction at the begginign didnt make it ovious(english isnt my first language sorry) But when i used the lady gaga and pewdiepie thing to say it doesnt make them any good i was trying to just point out that saying something is good because a lot of other people like it its not very smart to the op
You're completely missing the point, but that's okay.
None of those things means it has less depth. Maybe that's where the disconnection is. You think that harsh death penalties, harsher leveling curves and more downtime between fight = depth. Depth requires that choices be made. In your examples, there are no choices to be made.
Wait... here, watch this: http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity
Real MMO players don't take the WoW bashers seriously. Obviously they are bashing WoW to overcompensate for something. Just like middle aged men buy fancy sports cars to overcompensate certain limitations they have. I'm willing to bet very few of these 'WoW bashers" were very good at whatever MMO they deem superior.
WoW is popular for a reason. Being a shallow shell of a game isn't one of them.
When you know before an encounter that you will recover HP quickly or that you will not take heavy loses after a death you are indeed taking less choices because theres less factors you have to consider for your next action
I watch extra credits religiously no need to point it out to me.
Ok, so we've reduced it to one thing. Health recovery. You are saying that slow health recovery has more depth than fast health recovery and that WoW has less depth than previous games because your health recovers faster than those games.
So lets use your example with a melee class. I would say that you actually have more actions to consider with fast health recovery. If your health recovers quickly, you can kill or wait. If your health recovers slowly, you can only wait. Under your conditions (which I personally don't think constitute depth), WoW has more depth.
So, the original post was asking for a recommendation for an MMORPG that could spark his interest. He liked Wrath of the Lich King in WOW, which is an example of his gameplay style.. This thread has turned into a WOW bashfest.
Lets get back on topic.
I recommend waiting for
Wildstar and The Elder Scrolls Online.
I really do not see very many games with the storyline and depth that WOTLK gave us. But, Guildwars2 certainly has alot of good elements that could keep you very entertained until one of these other games launch.
Well i dont think health recovery is the only one but ill follow this train. You can choose to use a potion, you can choose to call a healer friend to heal you, you can party with someone else near to you and let him take agroo and switch between the two of you so that you dont stop killing....and thats all i can examples i can care to give right now cause i gotta go to sleep.
Having fast recovery eliminates all of those possible decisions.
Also according to the EC video you just posted it said "Depth is entirely a mental activity if players cant think around, should i use my rocket launcher or my machine gun, if they cant make a coincious CHOICE about it, then theres no depth."
That does make me right? i dunno right now im kinda tired to think about this.
Also i think i mistyped i ment Before an encounter
I actually am currently playing GW2 and I do love alot about it. Its just that the end game doesnt have a big draw for me. I think its because of the lack of raids. I love GW2 and will play it for years. But its definitely a more casual type of experience for me.
Wow never was a great, or good game. If anyone thought so it is just because one was too immature to know what's wrong with feeling it is a good game. It is same immaturity as 5 years old felt Teletubbies were the perfect TV show ever but will regret his mind when he's 2 years older than 5 years old.
The only two MMORPG games that were real and respectful were UO and EQ. They invented and opened new things individually. WoW only copied them and extended the lifetime of contents UO and EQ invented. And this 'life extension' of contents would had been what one had felt if anyone have experienced those two games for more than 3 months.
Plus, the implement of EQ&UO contents of WoW wasn't really better than the old ones. It was just easier and slightly more accessible to gather more crowds to make more money (just to make more money) which eventually failed WoW itself. But Blizzard is a good business-oriented company they just knew how to extend WoW's Coma status lifetime as long as possible. That's where most people really hate about WoW and Blizzard whether they recognize themselves or not.
This is one of the most ridiculous post I have ever read on this site.
So does Justin Bieber fans argue against Elvis Presley fans. To them Justin Bieber is really better artist than Elvis. But if they are lucky and intelligent enough, they will find the irrecoverable difference between them some day and appreciate Elvis ever existed. So do you.
One day you may grow up and realize that opinions can never be asserted to a factual claim.
I am going to agree with you that there is a way to look at health regen as a form of depth. I don't personally view it as fun or interesting and feel like it takes away from the experience, but I can see your perspective now.
The problem now is that you can do all those things that you listed in WoW. In WoW, your health regen still happens fairly slowly, just not as slow as EQ. People often took a bunch of potions with them or rolled with a healer or asked for a rez or whatever. People still sit down to eat food or drink... drink. The only functional difference is how long it took which adds no depth.
You played WoW for 3 weeks and decided it was dumbed down, mediocre and had no depth. The things you list that you think have more depth actually don't, you haven't actually named anything that was dumbed down and your opinion of the game being mediocre is based on a mere 3 weeks of play. How could you possess such a firm opinion about this game?
I personally think the market is not necessarily in a bad place. For all people want to slap the WoW Clone label on them -- and to various degrees they might borrow ideas that WoW also employed -- there are several major MMOs that have targeted a specific area and done those areas well. GW2, TSW, and even TOR have all done one or more major things differently or even better than WoW that I have enjoyed (yes, even though TOR is a poor WoW port to Star Wars in most respects, if you want voice overs, and a story-based leveling experience, you can go play a single player game, er, I mean, go play TOR!). Neverwinter has the Foundry. Defiance is a shooter loosely tied into a TV show. WildStar blends TERA with WoW's PvP and raiding, and throws in housing. I've barely played RIFT and LotRO, but I'm sure they do some things that stand out too. There's even DayZ for the "It's only fun if you have to start over when you die" crowd.
For all the whining about WoW clones, I think the player in 2013 has several good options for sampling some of the different things that can be done with MMOs. Could there stand to be even more diversity? Absolutely. The sandbox and sim crowd is still waiting for their game (ArcheAge might fill some of that demand, but I'm not sure the setting is compelling enough to satisfy the greater portion of those players).
But, what none of these games offers to players outside of the Kool Kids that get how amazing their game is, is the feeling of home that gets people to log in for an hour or ten most nights of the week for years. Everybody has a theory about what's missing and whether or not it can be found again, but I think most people who have drifted away from their favorite game and are looking for a new home recognize that something is.
I end up playing crappy stuff like maple story and some action semi mmo's just to past time.
I am now playing runescape.
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Even thou I do not play WoW anymore, you do realize that WoW was indeed deep and definitely well made hence their success.
The issue now with WoW is creating content that isn't bland and repetitive, but thinking WoW was not "deep" or "well made" tends to make me believe you are being sarcastic at the most.
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
dozens and dozens....all right, let's assume the minimum, two dozen, that's 24...
Since Wotlk...that's 2008...
Rounding down...five years...call it 60 months...
Two and a half months per trial...are new titles even releasing that quickly? Or is there some hyperbole here?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.