My point is when there is no consequences for your actions, being a jurk, even as far as your reputation of your name. IMO thats a bad thing. Your name gets so bad on a server from your attitude or ripping people off. Heck, /guild quit pay 10 bucks to buy a new name for your char and reapp to the same guild. I dont see the improvement. Its something I miss from the early days of MMOs. You worked as hard at your rep as a player as you did your char.
I don't miss anything. Working hard at your reputation? Is that fun? Or is it playing the way i want to more fun?
Personally i prefer zero commitment, and zero obligation. If i don't like you for any reason, why should i tolerate you in a GAME?
In the old days, you have to "play nice" or else no guild & no group. That led to too much drama.
The sword cut both ways. So what if i encounter some jerks, as long as i can hit "quit" and put them on an ignore list.
People are more antagonistic on the internet because there are no repercussions.
The internet is largely the way people communicate these days.
Therefor, people are growing more and more antagonistic.
It's not dissimilar to how children (or adults) act if they know they can get away with anything.
Is that a bad thing? Letting people to express their aggression in games. Better than having them doing it in the real world.
It reminds me of Japan. They produces the most porn and yet, they have the lowest rate of sexual crimes. Let people be mean in games, and they will be nicer in the real world?
The internet is anonymous... that is... until you say something that someone objects to... then you are no longer anonymous.
It's not a surge in anti-social gamers... it's just a change in the way people approach gaming.
Don't point the finger at generation X or Y... you'd be surprised at how many old timers... those who have played since the invention of dirt... are the ones who are the most anti-social these days. Scrooge became a miser as he grew older, not while in his youth. Just saying...
People are more antagonistic on the internet because there are no repercussions.
The internet is largely the way people communicate these days.
Therefor, people are growing more and more antagonistic.
It's not dissimilar to how children (or adults) act if they know they can get away with anything.
Is that a bad thing? Letting people to express their aggression in games. Better than having them doing it in the real world.
It reminds me of Japan. They produces the most porn and yet, they have the lowest rate of sexual crimes. Let people be mean in games, and they will be nicer in the real world?
So you're saying the internet makes people less angry.... Not sure i'm with you on this.
Communicating on the internet is just as real as communicating in real life. The only difference is distance and anonymity.
If you're being a jerk to a stranger from far away, you're still being a jerk.
People can't behave however they want simply because they're sitting at a computer and then just brush it off because it's not "IRL". It is IRL, it's just that there's no actual responsibility for what they say.
Really? My experience in games judging by the nature of the (often very racist and classist) remarks is that the rich and middle class players are the most numerous and the mouthiest by far. In real life working with the public that has also been my experience.
"Seven studies using experimental and naturalistic methods reveal that upper-class individuals behave more unethically than lower-class individuals. In studies 1 and 2, upper-class individuals were more likely to break the law while driving, relative to lower-class individuals. In follow-up laboratory studies, upper-class individuals were more likely to exhibit unethical decision-making tendencies (study 3), take valued goods from others (study 4), lie in a negotiation (study 5), cheat to increase their chances of winning a prize (study 6), and endorse unethical behavior at work (study 7) than were lower-class individuals. Mediator and moderator data demonstrated that upper-class individuals’ unethical tendencies are accounted for, in part, by their more favorable attitudes toward greed."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I'll probably be saying this a lot, I love anti-social players. Social = Socialism. Socialism is where the governing bodies are in charge of distribution and consumption. The word government literally means to govern the mind; mind control. Thus, anti-social is nothing other than being an individual who does not follow accepted methods of behavior dictated by popular culture (cult), and are far less likely to support fascism by choosing to stand up for freedom of expression; free will.
Maybe the correct term is non communicative players, and if that's the case, I don't blame players, lots of pain arises from relationships, so I can relate to those that minimize their desire to form a relationship the second someone says "Hi".
So the answer simply is, our society and culture as a whole, is very damaging to people, and that translates into the fantasy games we play.
Personally I think it is all part of the same socio-economic turmoil that is effecting the world as a whole.
People are upset, people are angry, even the kool-aid drinkers are starting to open their eyes and realize they have been used, lied to, and manipulated over and over.
They have begun to realize nobody is on their side and no matter what promises are made to them nobody is going to make their lives better, nobody is going to fix things.
The world is broken, people are broken, the economy is broken, and no matter what BS the media, politicians, or celebrities feed us, they can not fix it. They have no desire to fix it.
We are rapidly heading for another dark ages, a feudal system of Lord and Serfs ( slaves ), and we " the people ", the serfs, the slaves are too busy, or lazy, or stupid to do anything about it.
We sit here and convince ourselves, or worse yet let them convince us there is nothing we can do, that one man or woman can not make a difference.
We let them shove us together, while at the same time keeping us apart. We let them create this aura of fear around us.
All these news stories and TV shows, and videos over and over of police, FBI, ATF, DEA, Homeland Security, the Secret Service, FEMA, the CIA, now even the IRS.. all this media showing us how corrupt and dirty, dark, and evil they all are. How they exsist just to violate our civil and constitutional rights.
They make movies tons of movies showing us how our own military will not side with the people they are oath bound to protect, but would instead side with the dark and evil government, committing atrocities and murder against the people.
This is all part of the plan, all part of the brainwashing, disempowerment, and reeducation.
Just open one of your kids history books these days and start reading. They have changed it all, they are reeducating our children, teaching them some fabricated BS Marxist view of history, that paints freedom and individuality as something bad, and democracy as something evil and imperialistic.
It's no wonder our kids are becoming so angry, full of hate, and spite. They are being taught we are their enemies, that we did this to them, that the only people they can count on are their own generation and of course our leaders.
I mean if you follow history at all the same things going on in the US right now, are the same things that went on in Germany as the Nazi party was coming into power. Sometimes I am really surprised I have not yet seen a parade of homeland security goose stepping through the streets of Washington DC.
We are at a critical crossroads in history.
We can choose to go quietly into the night, or we can choose to rage rage against the dying of the light.
It's all about complexity... more complex games, more evolved players.
WoW, LoL, and so are full of child players, under-educated players, ghetto-players, etc...
EQ, Eve, vanguard, are hard games, so players know that games requieres some brain, and most people doesnt have brain... so they play wow, lol, neverwinter, gw2, etc...
People that want a challenge is people able to join a community... people wanting free stuff and so are troll people
It's all about complexity... more complex games, more evolved players.
WoW, LoL, and so are full of child players, under-educated players, ghetto-players, etc...
EQ, Eve, vanguard, are hard games, so players know that games requieres some brain, and most people doesnt have brain... so they play wow, lol, neverwinter, gw2, etc...
People that want a challenge is people able to join a community... people wanting free stuff and so are troll people
"most people doesn't have brain" is perhaps not the best thing to say in a post insulting the intelligence of those who play games you dislike.
Children play Chess too. Like Chess, children don't compete at the highest tiers of WOW or LoL play (and if they're there it's because they're brilliant at it; just like Chess.) Like Chess, these games are good at hiding their true complexity by appearing simple at first glance. Two kids examining Chess (or WOW or LoL) and only dabbling in it might conclude it was a shallow game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Communicating on the internet is just as real as communicating in real life. The only difference is distance and anonymity.
Those are remarkable differences, don't you think? Anonymity changes everything.
If you're being a jerk to a stranger from far away, you're still being a jerk.
Yes. so? We are all jerks underneath sometimes. Have you had a bad day and snap at your family? Ever yelled at your brother, sister, parents .. even once?
People can't behave however they want simply because they're sitting at a computer and then just brush it off because it's not "IRL". It is IRL, it's just that there's no actual responsibility for what they say.
Yes, we can on the Internet. In fact, how are you going to stop it? If i want to be rude to my PUG tonight, i obviously *can*. In fact, "no actual responsbility" = "you can".
The reason why games have become Anti-social is because there are too many MMOs today and all this competition has cause MMOs to try to pull in non MMO gamers. That means Solo players and the Farmville gamers. So now we have people who play mmos like Console games not to play an MMO.
Communicating on the internet is just as real as communicating in real life. The only difference is distance and anonymity.
Those are remarkable differences, don't you think? Anonymity changes everything.
If you're being a jerk to a stranger from far away, you're still being a jerk.
Yes. so? We are all jerks underneath sometimes. Have you had a bad day and snap at your family? Ever yelled at your brother, sister, parents .. even once?
People can't behave however they want simply because they're sitting at a computer and then just brush it off because it's not "IRL". It is IRL, it's just that there's no actual responsibility for what they say.
Yes, we can on the Internet. In fact, how are you going to stop it? If i want to be rude to my PUG tonight, i obviously *can*. In fact, "no actual responsbility" = "you can".
Anonymity doesn't make it ok to be a jerk.
Yes everyone is a jerk sometimes, that doesn't mean it's good.
When I said "People can't" I was refering to "just brush it off because it's not "IRL"." People on the internet are still people, they're not NPC's.
Again, communicating on the internet doesn't all of a sudden make being contrary and obnoxious a good thing.
Originally posted by danwest58 The reason why games have become Anti-social is because there are too many MMOs today and all this competition has cause MMOs to try to pull in non MMO gamers. That means Solo players and the Farmville gamers. So now we have people who play mmos like Console games not to play an MMO.
Old ladies playing farmville are probably much nicer people than the ex-EQ player who like to train others just because he came in late for a camp.
I'll probably be saying this a lot, I love anti-social players. Social = Socialism. Socialism is where the governing bodies are in charge of distribution and consumption. The word government literally means to govern the mind; mind control. Thus, anti-social is nothing other than being an individual who does not follow accepted methods of behavior dictated by popular culture (cult), and are far less likely to support fascism by choosing to stand up for freedom of expression; free will.
Maybe the correct term is non communicative players, and if that's the case, I don't blame players, lots of pain arises from relationships, so I can relate to those that minimize their desire to form a relationship the second someone says "Hi".
So the answer simply is, our society and culture as a whole, is very damaging to people, and that translates into the fantasy games we play.
Not sure if you are aware of this but there is a difference between being social and socialism.
Common (but not only of course, as it is a root word of socialism) definitions of being social are :
marked by or passed in pleasant companionship with friends or associates social life>
tending to form cooperative and interdependent relationships with others.
For these defintions - anti-socal has nothing to do with mind control.
Whereas socialism is:
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
And no - that is not what government means. That may be what it started as, I don't know, but the word has definately changed. Today it means the act or process of governing; specifically: authoritative direction or control.
and governing means: exercise continuous sovereign authority over; especially: to control and direct the making and administration of policy in
While there is some truth that society is damaging to some people in some instances. It is also true that without group efforts, there would be far far far fewer humans, and life would be short and brutal. There are more benefits to most societies than negatives.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
While there is some truth that society is damaging to some people in some instances. It is also true that without group efforts, there would be far far far humans, and life would be short and brutal. There are more benefits to most societies than negatives.
i don't think that is relevant to games .. entertainment products. The whole point of games is to escape from the real world. We have already survived, and became the lord of this planet.
So what if i am anti-social for an hour each week to some unknown people on the internet?
The above applies to MMO communities. Basically, as the community grows a critical mass of antisocial, **hole behaviour is reached at which point it explodes into everyones face. You only need an X amount of people to destroy a community, and as the community grows the probability that a given X amount of people in it will want to destroy it approaches 1.
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
While there is some truth that society is damaging to some people in some instances. It is also true that without group efforts, there would be far far far humans, and life would be short and brutal. There are more benefits to most societies than negatives.
i don't think that is relevant to games .. entertainment products. The whole point of games is to escape from the real world. We have already survived, and became the lord of this planet.
So what if i am anti-social for an hour each week to some unknown people on the internet?
I didn't say there was something wrong being anti-social in a game.
The other comment was not relevant to games, it was relevant to the person I quoted.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
While there is some truth that society is damaging to some people in some instances. It is also true that without group efforts, there would be far far far humans, and life would be short and brutal. There are more benefits to most societies than negatives.
i don't think that is relevant to games .. entertainment products. The whole point of games is to escape from the real world. We have already survived, and became the lord of this planet.
So what if i am anti-social for an hour each week to some unknown people on the internet?
I didn't say there was something wrong being anti-social in a game.
The other comment was not relevant to games, it was relevant to the person I quoted.
Such is the state of MMOs and why many millions of players are opting out. Everything about current MMOs causes anti social behavior. The biggest culprits are "F2P," rapid-leveling, quest-driven gameplay, and games which anyone can solo.
"F2P" creates an influx of non-invested transients who can be as IDB as they like without repercussions. If banned, they can simply create another account. Rapid-leveling means players are never in the same place for long. Plus, they max out their characters in a few weeks and play alts or quit. Quest-driven gameplay means players are constantly running in different directions to finish out their "Mindless Task01."
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Such is the state of MMOs and why many millions of players are opting out. Everything about current MMOs causes anti social behavior. The biggest culprits are "F2P," rapid-leveling, and quest-driven gameplay.
What are you talking about? The MMO market is growing, particularly BECAUSE of F2P games.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by ArclanSuch is the state of MMOs and why many millions of players are opting out. Everything about current MMOs causes anti social behavior. The biggest culprits are "F2P," rapid-leveling, and quest-driven gameplay.
What are you talking about? The MMO market is growing, particularly BECAUSE of F2P games.
We know you love "F2P" games since you post it 100 times daily, but please try to stay on topic.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by ArclanSuch is the state of MMOs and why many millions of players are opting out. Everything about current MMOs causes anti social behavior. The biggest culprits are "F2P," rapid-leveling, and quest-driven gameplay.
What are you talking about? The MMO market is growing, particularly BECAUSE of F2P games.
We know you love "F2P" games since you post it 100 times daily, but please try to stay on topic.
i am disputing the point that millions are opting out .. in fact, millions are opting in, and grow the market. Do you dispute that? Do you have any evidence that millions are opting out?
I've said it many times, imho, it's because they're not MMO players. They're converts from shooters, RPGs, RTS, etc. which focus on single player or small squad play at the most. MMOs are out of their comfort zone. If you try to play MMOs like you would any of the other genres it's going to play horribly. This is why every single game that's come out has been bashed beyond belief. Most of the MMOs that have been released are at least decent. I haven't really ran into any that are as bad as people claim on forums or in-game.
That's why everyone is concerned about "endgame". Endgame is a myth when it comes to MMOs. MMOs never end, therefore there can't be an endgame. Endgame is a term brought over from other genres to describe the last raid or last tier of PvP in MMOs. In doing so, people try to rush as quickly as possible to get to the "endgame". Then they're sorely disappointed, and they haven't a clue why. It's because MMOs aren't about the final raid or final tier of PvP. MMOs have been and always will be about the journey to that final raid.
Comments
I don't miss anything. Working hard at your reputation? Is that fun? Or is it playing the way i want to more fun?
Personally i prefer zero commitment, and zero obligation. If i don't like you for any reason, why should i tolerate you in a GAME?
In the old days, you have to "play nice" or else no guild & no group. That led to too much drama.
The sword cut both ways. So what if i encounter some jerks, as long as i can hit "quit" and put them on an ignore list.
Is that a bad thing? Letting people to express their aggression in games. Better than having them doing it in the real world.
It reminds me of Japan. They produces the most porn and yet, they have the lowest rate of sexual crimes. Let people be mean in games, and they will be nicer in the real world?
The internet is anonymous... that is... until you say something that someone objects to... then you are no longer anonymous.
It's not a surge in anti-social gamers... it's just a change in the way people approach gaming.
Don't point the finger at generation X or Y... you'd be surprised at how many old timers... those who have played since the invention of dirt... are the ones who are the most anti-social these days. Scrooge became a miser as he grew older, not while in his youth. Just saying...
So you're saying the internet makes people less angry.... Not sure i'm with you on this.
Communicating on the internet is just as real as communicating in real life. The only difference is distance and anonymity.
If you're being a jerk to a stranger from far away, you're still being a jerk.
People can't behave however they want simply because they're sitting at a computer and then just brush it off because it's not "IRL". It is IRL, it's just that there's no actual responsibility for what they say.
And your experience is correct:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/feb/27/upper-class-people-behave-selfishly
"Higher social classes more likely to lie, cheat, cut up other road users and not stop at pedestrian crossings, say researchers"
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/11/4086
"Seven studies using experimental and naturalistic methods reveal that upper-class individuals behave more unethically than lower-class individuals. In studies 1 and 2, upper-class individuals were more likely to break the law while driving, relative to lower-class individuals. In follow-up laboratory studies, upper-class individuals were more likely to exhibit unethical decision-making tendencies (study 3), take valued goods from others (study 4), lie in a negotiation (study 5), cheat to increase their chances of winning a prize (study 6), and endorse unethical behavior at work (study 7) than were lower-class individuals. Mediator and moderator data demonstrated that upper-class individuals’ unethical tendencies are accounted for, in part, by their more favorable attitudes toward greed."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I'll probably be saying this a lot, I love anti-social players. Social = Socialism. Socialism is where the governing bodies are in charge of distribution and consumption. The word government literally means to govern the mind; mind control. Thus, anti-social is nothing other than being an individual who does not follow accepted methods of behavior dictated by popular culture (cult), and are far less likely to support fascism by choosing to stand up for freedom of expression; free will.
Maybe the correct term is non communicative players, and if that's the case, I don't blame players, lots of pain arises from relationships, so I can relate to those that minimize their desire to form a relationship the second someone says "Hi".
So the answer simply is, our society and culture as a whole, is very damaging to people, and that translates into the fantasy games we play.
Personally I think it is all part of the same socio-economic turmoil that is effecting the world as a whole.
People are upset, people are angry, even the kool-aid drinkers are starting to open their eyes and realize they have been used, lied to, and manipulated over and over.
They have begun to realize nobody is on their side and no matter what promises are made to them nobody is going to make their lives better, nobody is going to fix things.
The world is broken, people are broken, the economy is broken, and no matter what BS the media, politicians, or celebrities feed us, they can not fix it. They have no desire to fix it.
We are rapidly heading for another dark ages, a feudal system of Lord and Serfs ( slaves ), and we " the people ", the serfs, the slaves are too busy, or lazy, or stupid to do anything about it.
We sit here and convince ourselves, or worse yet let them convince us there is nothing we can do, that one man or woman can not make a difference.
We let them shove us together, while at the same time keeping us apart. We let them create this aura of fear around us.
All these news stories and TV shows, and videos over and over of police, FBI, ATF, DEA, Homeland Security, the Secret Service, FEMA, the CIA, now even the IRS.. all this media showing us how corrupt and dirty, dark, and evil they all are. How they exsist just to violate our civil and constitutional rights.
They make movies tons of movies showing us how our own military will not side with the people they are oath bound to protect, but would instead side with the dark and evil government, committing atrocities and murder against the people.
This is all part of the plan, all part of the brainwashing, disempowerment, and reeducation.
Just open one of your kids history books these days and start reading. They have changed it all, they are reeducating our children, teaching them some fabricated BS Marxist view of history, that paints freedom and individuality as something bad, and democracy as something evil and imperialistic.
It's no wonder our kids are becoming so angry, full of hate, and spite. They are being taught we are their enemies, that we did this to them, that the only people they can count on are their own generation and of course our leaders.
I mean if you follow history at all the same things going on in the US right now, are the same things that went on in Germany as the Nazi party was coming into power. Sometimes I am really surprised I have not yet seen a parade of homeland security goose stepping through the streets of Washington DC.
We are at a critical crossroads in history.
We can choose to go quietly into the night, or we can choose to rage rage against the dying of the light.
LMAO my soul burns.....................
"most people doesn't have brain" is perhaps not the best thing to say in a post insulting the intelligence of those who play games you dislike.
Children play Chess too. Like Chess, children don't compete at the highest tiers of WOW or LoL play (and if they're there it's because they're brilliant at it; just like Chess.) Like Chess, these games are good at hiding their true complexity by appearing simple at first glance. Two kids examining Chess (or WOW or LoL) and only dabbling in it might conclude it was a shallow game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Anonymity doesn't make it ok to be a jerk.
Yes everyone is a jerk sometimes, that doesn't mean it's good.
When I said "People can't" I was refering to "just brush it off because it's not "IRL"." People on the internet are still people, they're not NPC's.
Again, communicating on the internet doesn't all of a sudden make being contrary and obnoxious a good thing.
Old ladies playing farmville are probably much nicer people than the ex-EQ player who like to train others just because he came in late for a camp.
Not sure if you are aware of this but there is a difference between being social and socialism.
Common (but not only of course, as it is a root word of socialism) definitions of being social are :
marked by or passed in pleasant companionship with friends or associates social life>
tending to form cooperative and interdependent relationships with others.
For these defintions - anti-socal has nothing to do with mind control.
Whereas socialism is:
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
And no - that is not what government means. That may be what it started as, I don't know, but the word has definately changed. Today it means the act or process of governing; specifically: authoritative direction or control.
and governing means: exercise continuous sovereign authority over; especially: to control and direct the making and administration of policy in
While there is some truth that society is damaging to some people in some instances. It is also true that without group efforts, there would be far far far fewer humans, and life would be short and brutal. There are more benefits to most societies than negatives.
i don't think that is relevant to games .. entertainment products. The whole point of games is to escape from the real world. We have already survived, and became the lord of this planet.
So what if i am anti-social for an hour each week to some unknown people on the internet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
The above applies to MMO communities. Basically, as the community grows a critical mass of antisocial, **hole behaviour is reached at which point it explodes into everyones face. You only need an X amount of people to destroy a community, and as the community grows the probability that a given X amount of people in it will want to destroy it approaches 1.
I didn't say there was something wrong being anti-social in a game.
The other comment was not relevant to games, it was relevant to the person I quoted.
Oh .. ok. Then i agree with your statements.
Such is the state of MMOs and why many millions of players are opting out. Everything about current MMOs causes anti social behavior. The biggest culprits are "F2P," rapid-leveling, quest-driven gameplay, and games which anyone can solo.
"F2P" creates an influx of non-invested transients who can be as IDB as they like without repercussions. If banned, they can simply create another account. Rapid-leveling means players are never in the same place for long. Plus, they max out their characters in a few weeks and play alts or quit. Quest-driven gameplay means players are constantly running in different directions to finish out their "Mindless Task01."
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
What are you talking about? The MMO market is growing, particularly BECAUSE of F2P games.
We know you love "F2P" games since you post it 100 times daily, but please try to stay on topic.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
i am disputing the point that millions are opting out .. in fact, millions are opting in, and grow the market. Do you dispute that? Do you have any evidence that millions are opting out?
I've said it many times, imho, it's because they're not MMO players. They're converts from shooters, RPGs, RTS, etc. which focus on single player or small squad play at the most. MMOs are out of their comfort zone. If you try to play MMOs like you would any of the other genres it's going to play horribly. This is why every single game that's come out has been bashed beyond belief. Most of the MMOs that have been released are at least decent. I haven't really ran into any that are as bad as people claim on forums or in-game.
That's why everyone is concerned about "endgame". Endgame is a myth when it comes to MMOs. MMOs never end, therefore there can't be an endgame. Endgame is a term brought over from other genres to describe the last raid or last tier of PvP in MMOs. In doing so, people try to rush as quickly as possible to get to the "endgame". Then they're sorely disappointed, and they haven't a clue why. It's because MMOs aren't about the final raid or final tier of PvP. MMOs have been and always will be about the journey to that final raid.
So MMO players don't play other games? If they do does that make them not MMO players then?
If they are still MMO players, why the double standard?