I played EQ from beta and i left it becouse they NEVER respected player base, never listened to them and all decisions do far from a players who in end pay for its service, i got even in SWG played it to max lv at that time as creature handler and another one as pistol gy, then i buyed expansion but after playing it a little i left again as things was not improved and fixing updating too slow.
SOE for me in multiple games and over too long time showed that they DON?T respect players who invest time and money in its game and do not offer entertainment any more. As such i really wish them to bankrupt and move from scene!
People here are all talking too much in gloves, trying to offer mild critique and give a game chance to go on, probably it will be best they close and somone other get SW and develop it from stratches to quality and fun to play enviropment.
I will for sure stay far far from any SOE product, and will continue to play EVE until Dungeons & Dragons Online is not ready at last this game offer some inovations and not follow trail left from EQ ...
Originally posted by Einherjar_LCSoE proves yet again that they will do anything in search of the almighty dollar.
Once again, I need to remind everyone that LucasArts developed, handles and maintaines Star Wars Galaxies. SOE publishes it.
Dana, with all due respect, John Smedley would not address the playerbase if SoE was nothing more than a publisher.
SoE is obviously more involved than that.
It is not the typical "publisher" relationship, because typically they throw boxes out the door and collect. In this case, they have an active interest in the continued health of the game and SWG is a major part of their portfolio (Station). It would be nieve to say that SOE was not consulted about these changes, but given the power of licences and their holders (in this case LucasArts), I'd wager the final decision rests firmly with LucasArts.
First off, I apologize about my previous post. It comes off rather flip after reading it and that was not my intention.
As far as SoE, I agree with your reply to an extent. As I stated, with John Smedley addressing the playerbase, I think SoE may be more involved at all levels of the decision making than we are giving them credit for.
My experiences with Smed is that he only shows his face when he thinks his neck is on the line. That being the case, why would he feel compelled to address the playerbase unless SoE had a lot of say in the NGE, and is taking heat for the susequent uproar and mass cancellations it has created?
That is of course my own theory on the situation. My experience with Smed and the bunch at SoE in EQ and EQ2 is what sends up a red flag in this situation. This NGE just smacks of SoE/Smed arrogance/disregard they so commonly display to thier playerbase.
They are out of touch with thier players and every move they have made or been involved in lately displays that quite well.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Originally posted by molecule Hey Rob,Not to be picky, but adieu is the French work for "goodbye." The word you're looking for is ado. As in "Without further ado..."I could care less about grammar in a forum post, but since this is an editorial on one of the biggest MMO sites on the web...Well okay, I guess I'm being picky. So sue me. =P
Good eye. I cannot believe I missed that - grrr... I speak French!
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Originally posted by daeandor I on the other hand, had decided to stick this out just a little longer. I'll tell you why: my current PA has maintained its active membership through the change so far and I am still having fun playing with my friends regardless of what I think of the interface, combat, crafting, etc.
When people are keeping on playing a MMO just because of the people, when they don't like the interface, combat, crafting, etc., I think there IS a problem. You might as well use MSN messenger (0$ to get it, 0$ subscription) if the only remaining purpose of the game was to keep in touch with online friends.
I didn't say there wasn't a problem with NGE. I was just saying that some people are still having fun regardless. At some point in the very near future, SWG has to get better. If it doesn't, well my PA will move on to one of it's other games.
Originally posted by Swizard SOE for me in multiple games and over too long time showed that they DON?T respect players who invest time and money in its game and do not offer entertainment any more.
What have you ever done to earn that respect? You think that by being a bitch player who puts in their $15 a month, that you somehow deserve to be treated like royalty. If they don't listen to you, maybe it's because you haven't said anything worth listening to?
Customer service is telling customers that they are always right while simultaneously trying to convince them that they are always wrong.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Swizard SOE for me in multiple games and over too long time showed that they DON?T respect players who invest time and money in its game and do not offer entertainment any more.
What have you ever done to earn that respect? You think that by being a bitch player who puts in their $15 a month, that you somehow deserve to be treated like royalty. If they don't listen to you, maybe it's because you haven't said anything worth listening to?
Customer service is telling customers that they are always right while simultaneously trying to convince them that they are always wrong.
SOE loves players like you Squidi. You have that "just hand me the KY jelly and i'll bend over and take it attitude" they look for. I'm pretty sure you'll continue to be a 'valued' customer to them.
It's people like 'you' that has caused developers to become lazy. Because thanks to people like 'you'. They know they can get away with releasing garbitch. Why strive to keep customers happy. When people like 'you' will just turn the other cheek. Taking anything they tell 'you' to.
If you think that's what customer service is really about. Then I seriously think you need to apply for a job at SOE. You'd fit right in. They don't understand customers, and evidently nor do you.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
SOE loves players like you Squidi. You have that "just hand me the KY jelly and i'll bend over and take it attitude" they look for. I'm pretty sure you'll continue to be a 'valued' customer to them. It's people like 'you' that has caused developers to become lazy. Because thanks to people like 'you'. They know they can get away with releasing garbitch. Why strive to keep customers happy. When people like 'you' will just turn the other cheek. Taking anything they tell 'you' to. If you think that's what customer service is really about. Then I seriously think you need to apply for a job at SOE. You'd fit right in. They don't understand customers, and evidently nor do you.
This post really shows just how little you know about the history of this game, customer service, and how to be a decent person Roin.
SOE listened to their customers, the loud whine obnoxious ones who complained about the original system in the first place. Then the CU hit and people continued to whine and complain, and the loudes whiners were the ones that got heard, so they made the NGE. Now more and more whining saying "Give us the game we whined about so much back, we loved it!"
The sad thing is, most of the forum dwellers who play SWG don't know what they want. Many are just reactionary, immature complainers. The only thing they know how to do is spout negativity and complaing.
SOE doesn't listen? I call B.S. on that--they listened too much, and to the trolls.
SOE has had 2 new engines on this game, they said the CU was great, and the player base knew nothing. Now they are stating the same garbage to defend this engine.
SOE does not listen to their player base, they brought this engine out because the game is slatedfor release on the PS3 next year. It is on the official Playstation 3 Website.
In order to do this they dumbed the game down to console garbage and said, oh its a better game.
IT IS NOT ! ... The original engine worked, but all they had to do was balance it, but they needed first ( Combat Upgrade ) to cut down on staff = The CU
Then make it console friendly = NGE, they are liars and thiefs, and do not believe the propeganda they spread.
Originally posted by Squidi Originally posted by Swizard SOE for me in multiple games and over too long time showed that they DON?T respect players who invest time and money in its game and do not offer entertainment any more.
What have you ever done to earn that respect? You think that by being a bitch player who puts in their $15 a month, that you somehow deserve to be treated like royalty. If they don't listen to you, maybe it's because you haven't said anything worth listening to?
Customer service is telling customers that they are always right while simultaneously trying to convince them that they are always wrong.
omg here relly you hit a wrong one i was trying to help making that game from CLOSED BETA ! i have seen it relased with KNOWN BUGS! i was in CUstomer support for them and have seen them giving instructions to IGNORE some problems people have as people are lazzy and will learn! I spent a ton of my time to make other players experience in game more fun!
people like you brain washed are ideal for SOE making them go on with whatever they put out, i like SWG as trademark, but even that will not make me accept that i have to pay to be constantly ignored, please keep playing all SOW games as much as you can at last you can be sure you will not meet me and i will be much happier that people like you are keep away from rest of normal people.
As a Vetran player of SWG for over 2 years and having played continously in that time, in all aspects of the game and professions, I as many do in game, feel that SOE have out done themselves this time in the current CU II.
Why you may ask? Well SOE have single handledly change the SW epic , to suit themselves, taking the Jedi which was once the most sort after and worked on class, to that of nothing more than a guy with a night light. Due to this and the many stupid decisions that SOE made "to improve" the game, has driven large guilds to resign from game and many (hundreds) not only vetran players to leave game, these players having muli characters on servers some up to 7 accounts.
I have been reading all the comments in these pages and I agree with them, but as I read them I wonder WILL SOE???????????????????? or will they delete and dismiss like they do on the forums for SWG? Makes one wonder
Originally posted by Roin SOE loves players like you Squidi. You have that "just hand me the KY jelly and i'll bend over and take it attitude" they look for. I'm pretty sure you'll continue to be a 'valued' customer to them.
There are far too many people involved in keeping SWG afloat, fans and developers, for any one person to be valued or to blame. We are ALL affected by changes, so if one guy gets hurt by a change and one guy doesn't, which one am I supposed to believe?
Personally, I like the NGE and have had a lot of fun playing it. I started over a character, by choice, and it has been great. Outside of a little lag and few bugs (that, I should point out, have been either fixed quickly or easily circumvented), my playing experience has been as good as it has ever been in SWG. Now, you complain about being butt raped, but I didn't lose anything I wasn't willing to give up anyway, and I have not been dealt a single slap in the face.
From my perspective, people who either hated SWG, are new to SWG, have never played SWG, or are open minded with find the NGE to be a much better direction - and those people out number dorks like you by the millions. I'm not inconvienced. Lots of people benefit from these changes. So you took it in the ass. I didn't, and I don't want to be held to your selfish vision of the game.
It's people like 'you' that has caused developers to become lazy. Because thanks to people like 'you'. They know they can get away with releasing garbitch. Why strive to keep customers happy. When people like 'you' will just turn the other cheek. Taking anything they tell 'you' to.
You deserve a little history on me. I've worked in the game industry as a programmer. I've been on the other side, which is why I don't approach games from a "what good does it do ME ME ME!!!" standpoint. I understand how development works, and I know what concessions must be made to make something work, and I know when something is a failure and can't be fixed. SWG was broken, it couldn't be fixed, and it was going to DIE. We don't have the option of pre-CU/post-CU - we have the option of the NGE or the end of SWG. They made the right call, even if you get your panties in a bunch because you are too selfishly hanging onto trees that you can't see the deforestation.
And believe me, I resent the game industry completely, which is why I no longer work in it. You will not find someone more willing to take someone to task over being lazy than I. If I thought for a second that the SWG wasn't workign their asses off, I'd be calling them on it. But I know how long it takes to make changes in the game industry - even something simple requires literally weeks of QA. When dealing with several different departments, different companies even, the smallest change can take months. Once balance issue needs to be coded, tested, approved by LA, then tested some more, then tested with the expansions, then tested with the expansions in development, then tested against the patches that went live since the process began, then finally reapproved by LA, and then put into the update cycle where it will be pushed out to Live probably months later. And that's known issues. If it is something brought to the table by a player, the community reps need to collect those reports, pass them to the QA department where they have to be guarranteed replicatable with the exact steps needed, then that gets passed to the team, which adds it to the bottom of the list of bugs they already have in the process of dealing with. Changing a live MMORPG is NOT as simple as changing a line of code and pushing it live. One misstep could lead to, for instance, a credit dupe which completely unbalances the game in mere hours. Yeah, they've had those too, but not as many as they could've. And a QA department of twenty testers can't possibly compare to the devious ingenuity of 200,000 players - it only takes one person to find a dangerous exploit and spread it around, and with that many players, the QA department can't possibly compete.
Trust me, the SWG devs are working their asses off, likely even working through the holiday weekend with hundred hour work weeks (another reason I left the industry) to get this stuff done faster. They are WORKING on the game, but a change like this takes, above all else, time and testing (which itself requires more time). The NGE is a first step and it isn't perfect, but for them to have done it in six months while also working on an expansion pack? That's not lazy. Not even fucking close.
If you think that's what customer service is really about. Then I seriously think you need to apply for a job at SOE. You'd fit right in. They don't understand customers, and evidently nor do you.
I don't care what customer service is about. People are self centered assholes and when it comes to online games, what they want is almost always at odds with what is best for the game. The thing which makes a great game is a unified vision and direction, something which is irrevocably disturbed by too many cooks in the kitchen. Design is not always about the person who plays a game's wants, but about their needs - and I promise you that these needs will very often be exactly opposite of what they want. God mode doesn't make a game fun. I want SOE to make the game they want to make, and I'll decide for myself whether I want to play it. I'll help find bugs and try to help them reach THEIR vision. As it is, the NGE is a great start and if they work on it some more, I'll definitely be there for a long, long time.
... I've worked in the game industry as a programmer. I've been on the other side, which is why I don't approach games from a "what good does it do ME ME ME!!!" standpoint. I understand how development works, and I know what concessions must be made to make something work, and I know when something is a failure and can't be fixed. SWG was broken, it couldn't be fixed, and it was going to DIE.
And believe me, I resent the game industry completely, which is why I no longer work in it.
I don't care what customer service is about. People are self centered assholes and when it comes to online games, what they want is almost always at odds with what is best for the game. The thing which makes a great game is a unified vision and direction, something which is irrevocably disturbed by too many cooks in the kitchen. Design is not always about the person who plays a game's wants, but about their needs - and I promise you that these needs will very often be exactly opposite of what they want. God mode doesn't make a game fun. I want SOE to make the game they want to make, and I'll decide for myself whether I want to play it. I'll help find bugs and try to help them reach THEIR vision. As it is, the NGE is a great start and if they work on it some more, I'll definitely be there for a long, long time.
It look like that you fill righ in mentality of SOE ideal slave why you don't ask them for a job? If you think that you are sorounded with self centered assholes why you play multiplayer game? As i see here most people feel hurt as they changed game from bottom up without giving them any option, IF game was so flawed and destinated to die, have to be some respect for people playing it at last leave them a server or two to migrate there and have its separate community without any hope for upgrades etc but at last they can keep time invested to develop character etc. Daoc was able to keep old and new servers, why SOE don't?
I'm not questioning if new SWG is better or not im questioning aproach to old customers and fans who they spit in face with what they done! Of course for you as "programmer" etic is not important and responsability for you is to go to kick a but of people who supported SOE flawed design as its reward for them as they are stupid to be loyal! Great thinking Squidi !
I played swg at launch. Those where great days, I really felt like i was in a living breathing world. I could be or do anything in those days.
...and then came the holocrons, in fact i can give you the date swg died. The christmas giveaway killed the game.
But most people trudged on (admit it, you knew something was missing) after all there was no real competition at that time WoW hadnt been mentioned EQ2 was still in it's infancy. (rember swg was the eqII beta)
then came the CU, a gutshot if ever there was one. The way soe treated us was apalling. Anyone else on Chimeara for the rollback?
but still we endured, at last with the cu soe promised things would start getting fixed proffession revamps, and expansions, and "we'll fix all those bugs this time promise" chimed soe.
and then not 6 month later the heart of the game was ripped out.
~Obic/Gulgoth~ Member of the 10th proffession
Fallen Earth here I come, may SOE burn in eternal frell
Originally posted by Swizard It look like that you fill righ in mentality of SOE ideal slave
Don't have a counter argument, so you resort to name calling? Brilliant! Why did I think of that!?!
If you think that you are sorounded with self centered assholes why you play multiplayer game?
Because, not all players are jerks. Just the ones trolling the forums terrorizing those who disagree with them. In game, I have an /addignore.
As i see here most people feel hurt as they changed game from bottom up without giving them any option, IF game was so flawed and destinated to die, have to be some respect for people playing it at last leave them a server or two to migrate there and have its separate community without any hope for upgrades etc but at last they can keep time invested to develop character etc. Daoc was able to keep old and new servers, why SOE don't?
This was mentioned in Smedly's letter. It's not cost effective (SWG is several orders of magnitudes more complex than DAoC, which is why you don't see servers with different rules, like PvP or Roleplaying etc) and they don't have the resources to support two different games - and his example was absolutely right. They do have to support it because what if somebody found a game breaking exploit? That server would be destroyed and SOE can't fix it. You are demanding for the IMPOSSIBLE. It cannot be done. GET OVER IT.
I'm not questioning if new SWG is better or not im questioning aproach to old customers and fans who they spit in face with what they done! Of course for you as "programmer" etic is not important and responsability for you is to go to kick a but of people who supported SOE flawed design as its reward for them as they are stupid to be loyal! Great thinking Squidi !
You misunderstand me. I understand where the players are coming from, but I also understand where the designers and programmers and business folk are coming from. I am approaching this change not from a selfish point of view of how I, personally, have to change, but whether or not the change is unreasonable. It is not.
The choice of whether to play SWG is ALWAYS your CHOICE. If you do not like the direction SWG is heading, you are free to cancel your account. However, pre-NGE SWG would not last another year. That is not a choice. Wouldn't you be more upset to not have SWG at all than to simply change how a few systems work? The devs HAD TO change the game to bring in new players and retain old players longer (and with over a million and a half copies sold with a subscription rate of 200,000 players, that is not a retention rate they can survive the game on).
Now, you can complain that the changes made were not improvements, but the change itself was not an option. It HAD to happen. SWG would DIE otherwise. It would CEASE TO BE. It would be an EX-MMORPG. It would not be PINING FOR THE FJORDS. Do you understand? This change NEEDED to happen. And as we all know, no change goes unpunished. Small changes just upset people A LOT (man, people were spelling doom over at City of Heroes when they implemented the diminishing returns for enhancements - and that's just peanuts). Big changes offend people to the very core. But as this change was not an option, then there was no choice but to implement it and let the chips fall where they may.
The NGE, being a change unprecedented by previous MMORPGs, was impossible to gauge the reaction to. They knew people would be upset, as the CU was nothing compared to this and it lead to riots and revolts. This is why they didn't let people know sooner. If they announced it three months earlier, there would be three months of constant flamewars and demands that couldn't be filled. When these flamewars and demands didn't get the desired result, the backlash would be even greater than it is now, if you can believe it. They decided to have the option to try out the big change nearly immediately, to stave off rumors, rabid speculation, and minimize the flamewars and unreasonable demands.
It had SOME success. It is impossible to say whether or not they could've minimized outrage more, but it is a guarrantee that no matter how they broached the subject, we'd still be in this forum trolling and flaming each other. There was going to be MASSIVE outrage no matter how you stretched it, and I really, really don't think SOE could've prevented it or even eased it more than they did. People are upset at change - not specific changes, but just change in the abstract sense. They did right by letting people see the changes as quickly as possible and placating them with refunds, free expansions, promised double character slots, and a dozen respecs. This gave the reasonable players plenty of opportunities to see the changes as effortlessly as possible, but would do nothing for the unreasonable.
There is nothing you can do to keep unreasonable people from being unreasonable. That's not a failure on SOE's part.
Bitching about whether pre- or post-NGE was the better game seems like a pointless exercise. There will be no roll-back, however many people complain, however bad the game's numbers look in the next two business quarters. Either this works, or the game is dead.
The issues, as I see them, are:
1. Is such a massive overhaul being forced onto players with two weeks notice (and just after the release of a not-free expansion to boot) ethical? The ethical - and to my thinking: smart - way would have been to be open about the plans from day one, to offer refunds for those who did not like the new direction and had long-running subscriptions, and to give people a chance to exit gracefully, instead of in anger.
2. Will the badwill generated impact on SOE, Lucasarts and the SW:G trademark in any significant way? Right now, all the forum venting and angry blog posts in the world will do very little harm to either of these, especially as the NGE is clearly geared at new non-experienced MMO players. But Sony already has a huge image problem with their CD root-kit copy protection issues. It just takes one mainstream media source to tack this debacle on to that failure, and if they can explain it simply to the non-initiate reader, it could be more trouble to the companies than it was worth.
3. Will the NGE bring in enough new players to make up for the alienated old players, and then above and beyond that? SW:G was underperforming, that was obvious to anyone. But would it have been better to kill it and release NGE as a new game?
4. If this succeeds, will it embolden other publishers with MMOs that have lacklustre sales to nuke the old game and bring in something completely new?
5. Does the fact that this is an MMO based on another property change things? I'm guessing that getting the license to create SW:G2 would have cost SOE extra money. So therefore, easier to revamp what they've got and try to make the most of the purchased license without that extra outlay.
I'm personally aghast at the treatment of the players, moreso than about the changes per se. But will anyone outside the rather insular world of MMO players find out about it and care at all? I honestly doubt it. Now it's only about whether SW:G can build a new user base quickly enough to validate the choice of going with the NGE. Everything else is pretty much moot.
What kept me in game was the core of any True MMORPG...Living in a virtual online world. Living the Star Wars Experience.
People could do anything they wanted, BE anyone they wanted(had to work harder for jedi..and they did!)...the perpetual online economy, crafting wares, the (although somewhat lacking ) GCW...all of that kept me in the game. Managing a city, being part of a large guild, the social interaction--all of it made me feel like I lived in the Star Wars Game.
Originally posted by Teaflax 1. Is such a massive overhaul being forced onto players with two weeks notice (and just after the release of a not-free expansion to boot) ethical?
After the expansion, no. In general, I'm not sure these grounds have been travelled well enough to be sure. I'd say, depends on the motivations of the developers. If it is to save SWG from certain death, then yes. If it is to make MORE money (it is already profitable) then I'd say no.
The ethical - and to my thinking: smart - way would have been to be open about the plans from day one, to offer refunds for those who did not like the new direction and had long-running subscriptions, and to give people a chance to exit gracefully, instead of in anger.
People have their self image directly tied to their SWG experience. There is NO WAY that they are leaving gracefully. Even with a refund for Trials of Obi-Wan, there's nobody gracefully accepting it. Oh, they're accepting it, but anyway but gracefully.
The SWG is the most spoiled playerbase of any MMORPG out there. I'm not sure including them in on the plans would work any better, if not being a generally bad idea. When they see the changes, they'll complain and demand other changes - and when the changes go through anyway, they'll get even more upset. I believe it is best to take away any illusion of input on this matter. SOE can listen later, but right now, they have higher priorities.
2. Will the badwill generated impact on SOE, Lucasarts and the SW:G trademark in any significant way?
I really doubt it. Most people venting against the NGE are doing so in the most offensive and destructive manner possible. Any third party who doesn't have self esteem issues is not going to take such statements at face value. I suspect that they'll try the game first (good thing there is a trial available) and make up their minds based on the game itself. As the NGE has some issues, but is generally not the horrific doom that people say it is, low expectations will lead to generally better than average opinions. Also, in a few months, some of these vets that quit in disgust will come back. Some will like the new system. It's happened before.
In six months, SOE will release a new expansion, probably something high profile, like Hoth, that will prompt game websites to revisit the quality of the game. If they've got the bugs worked out and the expansion is generally of a wholesome quality, the public perception of SWG will be swayed considerably. Ultimately, I doubt this backlash will amount to much in the long run, and the quality of the NGE will be far more important.
But Sony already has a huge image problem with their CD root-kit copy protection issues.
That's Sony BMG, not Sony Online Entertainment. Sure, they both have "Sony" in the name, but they are completely different companies. Plus, the root-kit will be a bad memory in a few months.
3. Will the NGE bring in enough new players to make up for the alienated old players, and then above and beyond that?
That's the million dollar question. Having started a character from level 1, I can safely say that the first dozen (so far) are most enjoyable and extremely addictive like SWG never has been in the past. It goes without saying that SOE has put its best foot forward to new players, and I think the gamble will pay off. Whether they can retain these players depends entirely on what choices they make in the next six month.
SW:G was underperforming, that was obvious to anyone. But would it have been better to kill it and release NGE as a new game?
That is not an option. The NGE is a significant change to SWG, but it isn't a new engine. All the art assets have remained, making it possible to release the NGE in six months instead of three years. Likewise, major portions of SWG remain the same, from owning houses to flying x-wings in space. The scripting system and graphics engine are the same. This means that they can focus completely on adding content rather than reinventing the wheel - and you KNOW that if they released SWG 2 with the exact same graphics and engine as SWG, people would bitch about it. In fact, if they closed down SWG at all, people would bitch about it. The NGE just focuses the bitching a bit better.
4. If this succeeds, will it embolden other publishers with MMOs that have lacklustre sales to nuke the old game and bring in something completely new?
The NGE is not "completely new". It has some big changes, but they do not fundamentally alter the game. SWG didn't become PlanetSide. It's still SWG, though with a new direction and feel.
I think such a change was enevitable. That it was SWG is not surprising, seeing as it is a huge license and shutting it down prematurely is just not an option. But I wouldn't be surprised if other companies did similar changes, though perhaps learning from SOE's mistakes. Since the CU, Everquest 2 had a successful combat revamp, and a much anticipated combat revamp is happening to Matrix Online. Both are working out better than SWG's.
You'll notice that when one MMORPG has a feature, it starts showing up in all the other MMORPGs. Player housing and instance dungeons are examples of features that started in one MMORPG and quickly migrated to the other ones through expansion packs. Most of the combat systems are identical, at least enough that if you know how a healer works in DAoC then you can function in Everquest in the same role. If somebody comes up with a better way to do combat and it really catches on, don't be surprised if it gets integrated into older games. SWG is actually kind of interesting in that they are literally trying to invent the wheel (Neocron is the only other one I can think of) based on their own space expansion.
5. Does the fact that this is an MMO based on another property change things? I'm guessing that getting the license to create SW:G2 would have cost SOE extra money. So therefore, easier to revamp what they've got and try to make the most of the purchased license without that extra outlay.
Yes.
I'm personally aghast at the treatment of the players, moreso than about the changes per se.
It's always about the players. Those players who spam the forums with disgusting images, or 50 pt text saying "ROLLBACK!", who spam Ebgames.com and amazon.com with biased and unfair reviews, and generally troll around like the world owes them something. I will fully admit that there were some things that SOE could've done differently, though perhaps it is only obvious in hindsight. However, please understand that the players are by no means innocent bystandards, and that they actively campaign to make it worse for themselves. It's a victim complex played out to the point where EVERYTHING is a "slap in the face". Would this backlash be half as bad if SOE just shut down the forums for a few weeks after the NGE was announced? Without the trolls there to fuel the fire and make people think that their self righteous opinions were shared by a majority (when they most certainly are not), I promise you that the NGE would be little more than the blip on the radar.
I think that the review was pretty much dead on. I have started to wonder though if it is even possible to create a diverse MMO based on Star Wars.
The bottom line is that people want to play Jedi. It doesn't matter how hard or boring it may be to become one. It doesn't matter if they are an "alpha" class or the worst class in the game. People are drawn to Jedi. For a large majority of people Jedi are Star Wars.
This would be a problem in any game. If WoW had that one class that everyone related to warcraft they would be in the same boat..but they don't. A Star Wars MMO seems to be doomed by its name. While the Star Wars Universe is full of diverse species and professions a MMO would not be. Even before the NGE this was a problem. You could change the time line but really in the end what good is that going to do? You still end up with a game full of Jedi.
Balancing Jedi with every other class wouldn't matter either. Fitting them in to their niche as WoW has done with its classes would probably be just as bad. The only way I could see there being any real diversity would be to have a game full of jedi and then have seperate classes for the jedi. Kind of like a mix of the pre nge SWG and WoW. You would have to chose whether you wanted to be a healing jedi (priest) a tank jedi (warrior) etc... As long as people have a lightsaber it might work. Not a perfect fix but unless something changes with peoples perception of jedi and star wars the "popular class" issue will always be a problem.
I am not flaming Jedi it is just an observation from a player that has been in the game for over 2 years. It seems like everyone had or was working on being a Jedi. Why have over 30 professions when the majority of players only really want one.
Originally posted by Teaflax 1. Is such a massive overhaul being forced onto players with two weeks notice (and just after the release of a not-free expansion to boot) ethical?
After the expansion, no. In general, I'm not sure these grounds have been travelled well enough to be sure. I'd say, depends on the motivations of the developers. If it is to save SWG from certain death, then yes. If it is to make MORE money (it is already profitable) then I'd say no.
Im sorry but the ends really can't justify the means. It was very unethical no matter what the reasons are.
soThe ethical - and to my thinking: smart - way would have been to be open about the plans from day one, to offer refunds for those who did not like the new direction and had long-running subscriptions, and to give people a chance to exit gracefully, instead of in anger.
People have their self image directly tied to their SWG experience. There is NO WAY that they are leaving gracefully. Even with a refund for Trials of Obi-Wan, there's nobody gracefully accepting it. Oh, they're accepting it, but anyway but gracefully.
The SWG is the most spoiled playerbase of any MMORPG out there. I'm not sure including them in on the plans would work any better, if not being a generally bad idea. When they see the changes, they'll complain and demand other changes - and when the changes go through anyway, they'll get even more upset. I believe it is best to take away any illusion of input on this matter. SOE can listen later, but right now, they have higher priorities.
The SWG playerbase may be the most spoiled and yet they are the worst treated. Could anything make the playerbase happy? I am not really sure but ignoring the customer is really never a good idea. SOE has locked themselves away from the community for a long time now. This creates anger. Communication is the key to any MMO. Blizzard has devs/mods post all the time on their forums. Since WoW is now the industry standard SOE could take a few pointers from them in their customer service.
2. Will the badwill generated impact on SOE, Lucasarts and the SW:G trademark in any significant way?
I really doubt it. Most people venting against the NGE are doing so in the most offensive and destructive manner possible. Any third party who doesn't have self esteem issues is not going to take such statements at face value. I suspect that they'll try the game first (good thing there is a trial available) and make up their minds based on the game itself. As the NGE has some issues, but is generally not the horrific doom that people say it is, low expectations will lead to generally better than average opinions. Also, in a few months, some of these vets that quit in disgust will come back. Some will like the new system. It's happened before.
In six months, SOE will release a new expansion, probably something high profile, like Hoth, that will prompt game websites to revisit the quality of the game. If they've got the bugs worked out and the expansion is generally of a wholesome quality, the public perception of SWG will be swayed considerably. Ultimately, I doubt this backlash will amount to much in the long run, and the quality of the NGE will be far more important.
Once again I don't totally disagree with you but I really can't support everything you say. This is something new to the industry and no one really knows what is going to happen. You may be right or you may be totally off. All of the bad publicity may kill the game. It is far to early to tell and since something like this has never really happened before all anyone can do is sit back and wait.
But Sony already has a huge image problem with their CD root-kit copy protection issues.
That's Sony BMG, not Sony Online Entertainment. Sure, they both have "Sony" in the name, but they are completely different companies. Plus, the root-kit will be a bad memory in a few months.
While you are correct it is not in essence the same company people see the name Sony and this is what they think. It does not matter if it is correct or not. This will not help the sales of any product with the name of Sony on it. While the news may fade from the media it will stay in the minds of the consumer. It always does. I still remember the rumor of the Life cereal kid dieing from POP Rocks candy. While it wasn't true it does not matter.
3. Will the NGE bring in enough new players to make up for the alienated old players, and then above and beyond that?
That's the million dollar question. Having started a character from level 1, I can safely say that the first dozen (so far) are most enjoyable and extremely addictive like SWG never has been in the past. It goes without saying that SOE has put its best foot forward to new players, and I think the gamble will pay off. Whether they can retain these players depends entirely on what choices they make in the next six month.
That is your opinion. It does not mean it will be everyones. Even if that is the first impression a new player gets what happens after that? What happens after level 30? I find it hard to believe that SOE will provide more content for players of level 30 before they achieve that level. SOE does not have 6 months to fix all of the problems (including bugs) with content. The question you would have to ask yourself as a new player is do I want to wait for the game I bought to become better or do I just go buy another MMO that is already further along in terms of content and stability. I dont know if the Star Wars name alone can hold newer people to this game. Not with all of the new MMO's coming out.
SW:G was underperforming, that was obvious to anyone. But would it have been better to kill it and release NGE as a new game?
That is not an option. The NGE is a significant change to SWG, but it isn't a new engine. All the art assets have remained, making it possible to release the NGE in six months instead of three years. Likewise, major portions of SWG remain the same, from owning houses to flying x-wings in space. The scripting system and graphics engine are the same. This means that they can focus completely on adding content rather than reinventing the wheel - and you KNOW that if they released SWG 2 with the exact same graphics and engine as SWG, people would bitch about it. In fact, if they closed down SWG at all, people would bitch about it. The NGE just focuses the bitching a bit better.
With the NGE they have reinvented the wheel. I understand the point you are making but it seems to go against everything that the NGE is. Content could have and should have been added a long time ago. If the NGE had not happened wouldn't this have freed up even more time to fix the bugs and add content? Was the CU so bad that it couldn't have been fixed? I dont think so. Think of all of the time and resources that have been put in to the NGE that could have been put in to content and bug fixing. All the NGE has done is create a new set of bugs and even more lag. Now that needs to be fixed as well. The NGE just seems like a waste of time. I am not saying I hate it or like it. Just seems like wasted resources.
4. If this succeeds, will it embolden other publishers with MMOs that have lacklustre sales to nuke the old game and bring in something completely new?
The NGE is not "completely new". It has some big changes, but they do not fundamentally alter the game. SWG didn't become PlanetSide. It's still SWG, though with a new direction and feel.
I think such a change was enevitable. That it was SWG is not surprising, seeing as it is a huge license and shutting it down prematurely is just not an option. But I wouldn't be surprised if other companies did similar changes, though perhaps learning from SOE's mistakes. Since the CU, Everquest 2 had a successful combat revamp, and a much anticipated combat revamp is happening to Matrix Online. Both are working out better than SWG's.
You'll notice that when one MMORPG has a feature, it starts showing up in all the other MMORPGs. Player housing and instance dungeons are examples of features that started in one MMORPG and quickly migrated to the other ones through expansion packs. Most of the combat systems are identical, at least enough that if you know how a healer works in DAoC then you can function in Everquest in the same role. If somebody comes up with a better way to do combat and it really catches on, don't be surprised if it gets integrated into older games. SWG is actually kind of interesting in that they are literally trying to invent the wheel (Neocron is the only other one I can think of) based on their own space expansion.
In some ways I agree with you yet again. All the NGE really did was take things away from SWG while offering very little in exchange. So in essence it is the same game with less than it had before. Can you honestly say at this point in the NGE that it is any other way? Maybe at some point down the road it could be but as of right now SWG is an unfinished shell of what it was and more importantly what it could be.
5. Does the fact that this is an MMO based on another property change things? I'm guessing that getting the license to create SW:G2 would have cost SOE extra money. So therefore, easier to revamp what they've got and try to make the most of the purchased license without that extra outlay.
Yes.
I agree. It's a pretty safe bet that SOE is going to milk this cash cow for all they can. They are paying for it and it would be stupid not to.
I'm personally aghast at the treatment of the players, moreso than about the changes per se.
It's always about the players. Those players who spam the forums with disgusting images, or 50 pt text saying "ROLLBACK!", who spam Ebgames.com and amazon.com with biased and unfair reviews, and generally troll around like the world owes them something. I will fully admit that there were some things that SOE could've done differently, though perhaps it is only obvious in hindsight. However, please understand that the players are by no means innocent bystandards, and that they actively campaign to make it worse for themselves. It's a victim complex played out to the point where EVERYTHING is a "slap in the face". Would this backlash be half as bad if SOE just shut down the forums for a few weeks after the NGE was announced? Without the trolls there to fuel the fire and make people think that their self righteous opinions were shared by a majority (when they most certainly are not), I promise you that the NGE would be little more than the blip on the radar.
SOE has broken every rule of good customer service. Love the NGE or hate it this is something everyone should agree on. Bad customer service could very well be the end of SWG. SOE has to change their way of thinking as far as their customers are concerned. It is going to be their downfall. Look around at the other MMO companies out there. You know they are watching and learning from every mistake that SOE has made.
How can we give something a chance that is such a buggy incomplete piece of garbadge? Soe has demonstrated their lack of profession in this matter by A. Not Listening to their existing player base B. Releasing a product into a live server that is not fit for Beta testing and maybe even Alpha testing yes its that buggy C. SOE lies plain and simple. Remember the comments from Smed "our players overwhelminly support these changes" when in fact the opposite was true. New players beware the tutorial is not how the rest of the game is, and SOE has a tradition of lying and cheating its customers. Not only would I avoid SWG I would avoid anything by SOE period.
While it would be undeniable to say that MMORPGs and games in general need change, I do question your stance that THIS change is what is necessary. Is it not permissible to question the nature and delivery of change? Must we submit our subscriber revenue and "take one for the team?" Surely, a subscription deserves SOME respect. While your disdain probably stems from customer service aggravation during your time in the industry, it is not appreciated from the customer point of view needless to say.
Not to defend the namecaller, but I'm particularly disgusted by the NGE and direction of the game. I renewed my three accounts for a year recently and intend to quit well in advance of the account expirations.
Is playerbase opposition always to be belittled? I'm appalled at your disdain. I've played continuously since I started. I'm a little weary of SOE/LA's promises and changes.
And in regards to your acerbic replies with the troll from earlier, it's difficult to assert that the whiners from pre-CU are the same people that whine pre-NGE. Considering player attrition and the changing up of the playerbase, I think it's fair to say that a great portion of the new complaints are from completely different people. So it's more of the same if you consider player opposition enmass, but it's not like the same people are whining.
Comments
I played EQ from beta and i left it becouse they NEVER respected player base, never listened to them and all decisions do far from a players who in end pay for its service, i got even in SWG played it to max lv at that time as creature handler and another one as pistol gy, then i buyed expansion but after playing it a little i left again as things was not improved and fixing updating too slow.
SOE for me in multiple games and over too long time showed that they DON?T respect players who invest time and money in its game and do not offer entertainment any more. As such i really wish them to bankrupt and move from scene!
People here are all talking too much in gloves, trying to offer mild critique and give a game chance to go on, probably it will be best they close and somone other get SW and develop it from stratches to quality and fun to play enviropment.
I will for sure stay far far from any SOE product, and will continue to play EVE until Dungeons & Dragons Online is not ready at last this game offer some inovations and not follow trail left from EQ ...
It is not the typical "publisher" relationship, because typically they throw boxes out the door and collect. In this case, they have an active interest in the continued health of the game and SWG is a major part of their portfolio (Station). It would be nieve to say that SOE was not consulted about these changes, but given the power of licences and their holders (in this case LucasArts), I'd wager the final decision rests firmly with LucasArts.
First off, I apologize about my previous post. It comes off rather flip after reading it and that was not my intention.
As far as SoE, I agree with your reply to an extent. As I stated, with John Smedley addressing the playerbase, I think SoE may be more involved at all levels of the decision making than we are giving them credit for.
My experiences with Smed is that he only shows his face when he thinks his neck is on the line. That being the case, why would he feel compelled to address the playerbase unless SoE had a lot of say in the NGE, and is taking heat for the susequent uproar and mass cancellations it has created?
That is of course my own theory on the situation. My experience with Smed and the bunch at SoE in EQ and EQ2 is what sends up a red flag in this situation. This NGE just smacks of SoE/Smed arrogance/disregard they so commonly display to thier playerbase.
They are out of touch with thier players and every move they have made or been involved in lately displays that quite well.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Good eye. I cannot believe I missed that - grrr... I speak French!
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
You might as well use MSN messenger (0$ to get it, 0$ subscription) if the only remaining purpose of the game was to keep in touch with online friends.
I didn't say there wasn't a problem with NGE. I was just saying that some people are still having fun regardless. At some point in the very near future, SWG has to get better. If it doesn't, well my PA will move on to one of it's other games.
Customer service is telling customers that they are always right while simultaneously trying to convince them that they are always wrong.
Customer service is telling customers that they are always right while simultaneously trying to convince them that they are always wrong.
SOE loves players like you Squidi. You have that "just hand me the KY jelly and i'll bend over and take it attitude" they look for. I'm pretty sure you'll continue to be a 'valued' customer to them.
It's people like 'you' that has caused developers to become lazy. Because thanks to people like 'you'. They know they can get away with releasing garbitch. Why strive to keep customers happy. When people like 'you' will just turn the other cheek. Taking anything they tell 'you' to.
If you think that's what customer service is really about. Then I seriously think you need to apply for a job at SOE. You'd fit right in. They don't understand customers, and evidently nor do you.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
This post really shows just how little you know about the history of this game, customer service, and how to be a decent person Roin.
SOE listened to their customers, the loud whine obnoxious ones who complained about the original system in the first place. Then the CU hit and people continued to whine and complain, and the loudes whiners were the ones that got heard, so they made the NGE. Now more and more whining saying "Give us the game we whined about so much back, we loved it!"
The sad thing is, most of the forum dwellers who play SWG don't know what they want. Many are just reactionary, immature complainers. The only thing they know how to do is spout negativity and complaing.
SOE doesn't listen? I call B.S. on that--they listened too much, and to the trolls.
The game is a garbage version of battlefront now.
SOE has had 2 new engines on this game, they said the CU was great, and the player base knew nothing. Now they are stating the same garbage to defend this engine.
SOE does not listen to their player base, they brought this engine out because the game is slatedfor release on the PS3 next year. It is on the official Playstation 3 Website.
In order to do this they dumbed the game down to console garbage and said, oh its a better game.
IT IS NOT ! ... The original engine worked, but all they had to do was balance it, but they needed first ( Combat Upgrade ) to cut down on staff = The CU
Then make it console friendly = NGE, they are liars and thiefs, and do not believe the propeganda they spread.
Customer service is telling customers that they are always right while simultaneously trying to convince them that they are always wrong.
As a Vetran player of SWG for over 2 years and having played continously in that time, in all aspects of the game and professions, I as many do in game, feel that SOE have out done themselves this time in the current CU II.
Why you may ask? Well SOE have single handledly change the SW epic , to suit themselves, taking the Jedi which was once the most sort after and worked on class, to that of nothing more than a guy with a night light. Due to this and the many stupid decisions that SOE made "to improve" the game, has driven large guilds to resign from game and many (hundreds) not only vetran players to leave game, these players having muli characters on servers some up to 7 accounts.
Good one SOE for wrecking a once was great game.
Signed
A once loyal fan of SWG
totally agree with you, SWG has become the mopst boring game around, and SOE wont lift a finger to fix it.....wonder if George knows?
I have been reading all the comments in these pages and I agree with them, but as I read them I wonder WILL SOE???????????????????? or will they delete and dismiss like they do on the forums for SWG? Makes one wonder
Personally, I like the NGE and have had a lot of fun playing it. I started over a character, by choice, and it has been great. Outside of a little lag and few bugs (that, I should point out, have been either fixed quickly or easily circumvented), my playing experience has been as good as it has ever been in SWG. Now, you complain about being butt raped, but I didn't lose anything I wasn't willing to give up anyway, and I have not been dealt a single slap in the face.
From my perspective, people who either hated SWG, are new to SWG, have never played SWG, or are open minded with find the NGE to be a much better direction - and those people out number dorks like you by the millions. I'm not inconvienced. Lots of people benefit from these changes. So you took it in the ass. I didn't, and I don't want to be held to your selfish vision of the game.
You deserve a little history on me. I've worked in the game industry as a programmer. I've been on the other side, which is why I don't approach games from a "what good does it do ME ME ME!!!" standpoint. I understand how development works, and I know what concessions must be made to make something work, and I know when something is a failure and can't be fixed. SWG was broken, it couldn't be fixed, and it was going to DIE. We don't have the option of pre-CU/post-CU - we have the option of the NGE or the end of SWG. They made the right call, even if you get your panties in a bunch because you are too selfishly hanging onto trees that you can't see the deforestation.And believe me, I resent the game industry completely, which is why I no longer work in it. You will not find someone more willing to take someone to task over being lazy than I. If I thought for a second that the SWG wasn't workign their asses off, I'd be calling them on it. But I know how long it takes to make changes in the game industry - even something simple requires literally weeks of QA. When dealing with several different departments, different companies even, the smallest change can take months. Once balance issue needs to be coded, tested, approved by LA, then tested some more, then tested with the expansions, then tested with the expansions in development, then tested against the patches that went live since the process began, then finally reapproved by LA, and then put into the update cycle where it will be pushed out to Live probably months later. And that's known issues. If it is something brought to the table by a player, the community reps need to collect those reports, pass them to the QA department where they have to be guarranteed replicatable with the exact steps needed, then that gets passed to the team, which adds it to the bottom of the list of bugs they already have in the process of dealing with. Changing a live MMORPG is NOT as simple as changing a line of code and pushing it live. One misstep could lead to, for instance, a credit dupe which completely unbalances the game in mere hours. Yeah, they've had those too, but not as many as they could've. And a QA department of twenty testers can't possibly compare to the devious ingenuity of 200,000 players - it only takes one person to find a dangerous exploit and spread it around, and with that many players, the QA department can't possibly compete.
Trust me, the SWG devs are working their asses off, likely even working through the holiday weekend with hundred hour work weeks (another reason I left the industry) to get this stuff done faster. They are WORKING on the game, but a change like this takes, above all else, time and testing (which itself requires more time). The NGE is a first step and it isn't perfect, but for them to have done it in six months while also working on an expansion pack? That's not lazy. Not even fucking close.
I don't care what customer service is about. People are self centered assholes and when it comes to online games, what they want is almost always at odds with what is best for the game. The thing which makes a great game is a unified vision and direction, something which is irrevocably disturbed by too many cooks in the kitchen. Design is not always about the person who plays a game's wants, but about their needs - and I promise you that these needs will very often be exactly opposite of what they want. God mode doesn't make a game fun. I want SOE to make the game they want to make, and I'll decide for myself whether I want to play it. I'll help find bugs and try to help them reach THEIR vision. As it is, the NGE is a great start and if they work on it some more, I'll definitely be there for a long, long time.I'm not questioning if new SWG is better or not im questioning aproach to old customers and fans who they spit in face with what they done! Of course for you as "programmer" etic is not important and responsability for you is to go to kick a but of people who supported SOE flawed design as its reward for them as they are stupid to be loyal! Great thinking Squidi !
I played swg at launch. Those where great days, I really felt like i was in a living breathing world. I could be or do anything in those days.
...and then came the holocrons, in fact i can give you the date swg died. The christmas giveaway killed the game.
But most people trudged on (admit it, you knew something was missing) after all there was no real competition at that time WoW hadnt been mentioned EQ2 was still in it's infancy. (rember swg was the eqII beta)
then came the CU, a gutshot if ever there was one. The way soe treated us was apalling. Anyone else on Chimeara for the rollback?
but still we endured, at last with the cu soe promised things would start getting fixed proffession revamps, and expansions, and "we'll fix all those bugs this time promise" chimed soe.
and then not 6 month later the heart of the game was ripped out.
~Obic/Gulgoth~ Member of the 10th proffession
Fallen Earth here I come, may SOE burn in eternal frell
[quote]Originally posted by Lepidus
[/b][/quote]
Good eye. I cannot believe I missed that - grrr... I speak French!
Wait... Are you saying the article was proofed? That's a little worrisome.
The choice of whether to play SWG is ALWAYS your CHOICE. If you do not like the direction SWG is heading, you are free to cancel your account. However, pre-NGE SWG would not last another year. That is not a choice. Wouldn't you be more upset to not have SWG at all than to simply change how a few systems work? The devs HAD TO change the game to bring in new players and retain old players longer (and with over a million and a half copies sold with a subscription rate of 200,000 players, that is not a retention rate they can survive the game on).
Now, you can complain that the changes made were not improvements, but the change itself was not an option. It HAD to happen. SWG would DIE otherwise. It would CEASE TO BE. It would be an EX-MMORPG. It would not be PINING FOR THE FJORDS. Do you understand? This change NEEDED to happen. And as we all know, no change goes unpunished. Small changes just upset people A LOT (man, people were spelling doom over at City of Heroes when they implemented the diminishing returns for enhancements - and that's just peanuts). Big changes offend people to the very core. But as this change was not an option, then there was no choice but to implement it and let the chips fall where they may.
The NGE, being a change unprecedented by previous MMORPGs, was impossible to gauge the reaction to. They knew people would be upset, as the CU was nothing compared to this and it lead to riots and revolts. This is why they didn't let people know sooner. If they announced it three months earlier, there would be three months of constant flamewars and demands that couldn't be filled. When these flamewars and demands didn't get the desired result, the backlash would be even greater than it is now, if you can believe it. They decided to have the option to try out the big change nearly immediately, to stave off rumors, rabid speculation, and minimize the flamewars and unreasonable demands.
It had SOME success. It is impossible to say whether or not they could've minimized outrage more, but it is a guarrantee that no matter how they broached the subject, we'd still be in this forum trolling and flaming each other. There was going to be MASSIVE outrage no matter how you stretched it, and I really, really don't think SOE could've prevented it or even eased it more than they did. People are upset at change - not specific changes, but just change in the abstract sense. They did right by letting people see the changes as quickly as possible and placating them with refunds, free expansions, promised double character slots, and a dozen respecs. This gave the reasonable players plenty of opportunities to see the changes as effortlessly as possible, but would do nothing for the unreasonable.
There is nothing you can do to keep unreasonable people from being unreasonable. That's not a failure on SOE's part.
Bitching about whether pre- or post-NGE was the better game seems like a pointless exercise. There will be no roll-back, however many people complain, however bad the game's numbers look in the next two business quarters. Either this works, or the game is dead.
The issues, as I see them, are:
1. Is such a massive overhaul being forced onto players with two weeks notice (and just after the release of a not-free expansion to boot) ethical? The ethical - and to my thinking: smart - way would have been to be open about the plans from day one, to offer refunds for those who did not like the new direction and had long-running subscriptions, and to give people a chance to exit gracefully, instead of in anger.
2. Will the badwill generated impact on SOE, Lucasarts and the SW:G trademark in any significant way? Right now, all the forum venting and angry blog posts in the world will do very little harm to either of these, especially as the NGE is clearly geared at new non-experienced MMO players. But Sony already has a huge image problem with their CD root-kit copy protection issues. It just takes one mainstream media source to tack this debacle on to that failure, and if they can explain it simply to the non-initiate reader, it could be more trouble to the companies than it was worth.
3. Will the NGE bring in enough new players to make up for the alienated old players, and then above and beyond that? SW:G was underperforming, that was obvious to anyone. But would it have been better to kill it and release NGE as a new game?
4. If this succeeds, will it embolden other publishers with MMOs that have lacklustre sales to nuke the old game and bring in something completely new?
5. Does the fact that this is an MMO based on another property change things? I'm guessing that getting the license to create SW:G2 would have cost SOE extra money. So therefore, easier to revamp what they've got and try to make the most of the purchased license without that extra outlay.
I'm personally aghast at the treatment of the players, moreso than about the changes per se. But will anyone outside the rather insular world of MMO players find out about it and care at all? I honestly doubt it. Now it's only about whether SW:G can build a new user base quickly enough to validate the choice of going with the NGE. Everything else is pretty much moot.
The SWG is the most spoiled playerbase of any MMORPG out there. I'm not sure including them in on the plans would work any better, if not being a generally bad idea. When they see the changes, they'll complain and demand other changes - and when the changes go through anyway, they'll get even more upset. I believe it is best to take away any illusion of input on this matter. SOE can listen later, but right now, they have higher priorities.
I really doubt it. Most people venting against the NGE are doing so in the most offensive and destructive manner possible. Any third party who doesn't have self esteem issues is not going to take such statements at face value. I suspect that they'll try the game first (good thing there is a trial available) and make up their minds based on the game itself. As the NGE has some issues, but is generally not the horrific doom that people say it is, low expectations will lead to generally better than average opinions. Also, in a few months, some of these vets that quit in disgust will come back. Some will like the new system. It's happened before.In six months, SOE will release a new expansion, probably something high profile, like Hoth, that will prompt game websites to revisit the quality of the game. If they've got the bugs worked out and the expansion is generally of a wholesome quality, the public perception of SWG will be swayed considerably. Ultimately, I doubt this backlash will amount to much in the long run, and the quality of the NGE will be far more important.
That's Sony BMG, not Sony Online Entertainment. Sure, they both have "Sony" in the name, but they are completely different companies. Plus, the root-kit will be a bad memory in a few months. That's the million dollar question. Having started a character from level 1, I can safely say that the first dozen (so far) are most enjoyable and extremely addictive like SWG never has been in the past. It goes without saying that SOE has put its best foot forward to new players, and I think the gamble will pay off. Whether they can retain these players depends entirely on what choices they make in the next six month.
That is not an option. The NGE is a significant change to SWG, but it isn't a new engine. All the art assets have remained, making it possible to release the NGE in six months instead of three years. Likewise, major portions of SWG remain the same, from owning houses to flying x-wings in space. The scripting system and graphics engine are the same. This means that they can focus completely on adding content rather than reinventing the wheel - and you KNOW that if they released SWG 2 with the exact same graphics and engine as SWG, people would bitch about it. In fact, if they closed down SWG at all, people would bitch about it. The NGE just focuses the bitching a bit better.
The NGE is not "completely new". It has some big changes, but they do not fundamentally alter the game. SWG didn't become PlanetSide. It's still SWG, though with a new direction and feel.I think such a change was enevitable. That it was SWG is not surprising, seeing as it is a huge license and shutting it down prematurely is just not an option. But I wouldn't be surprised if other companies did similar changes, though perhaps learning from SOE's mistakes. Since the CU, Everquest 2 had a successful combat revamp, and a much anticipated combat revamp is happening to Matrix Online. Both are working out better than SWG's.
You'll notice that when one MMORPG has a feature, it starts showing up in all the other MMORPGs. Player housing and instance dungeons are examples of features that started in one MMORPG and quickly migrated to the other ones through expansion packs. Most of the combat systems are identical, at least enough that if you know how a healer works in DAoC then you can function in Everquest in the same role. If somebody comes up with a better way to do combat and it really catches on, don't be surprised if it gets integrated into older games. SWG is actually kind of interesting in that they are literally trying to invent the wheel (Neocron is the only other one I can think of) based on their own space expansion.
Yes. It's always about the players. Those players who spam the forums with disgusting images, or 50 pt text saying "ROLLBACK!", who spam Ebgames.com and amazon.com with biased and unfair reviews, and generally troll around like the world owes them something. I will fully admit that there were some things that SOE could've done differently, though perhaps it is only obvious in hindsight. However, please understand that the players are by no means innocent bystandards, and that they actively campaign to make it worse for themselves. It's a victim complex played out to the point where EVERYTHING is a "slap in the face". Would this backlash be half as bad if SOE just shut down the forums for a few weeks after the NGE was announced? Without the trolls there to fuel the fire and make people think that their self righteous opinions were shared by a majority (when they most certainly are not), I promise you that the NGE would be little more than the blip on the radar.I think that the review was pretty much dead on. I have started to wonder though if it is even possible to create a diverse MMO based on Star Wars.
The bottom line is that people want to play Jedi. It doesn't matter how hard or boring it may be to become one. It doesn't matter if they are an "alpha" class or the worst class in the game. People are drawn to Jedi. For a large majority of people Jedi are Star Wars.
This would be a problem in any game. If WoW had that one class that everyone related to warcraft they would be in the same boat..but they don't. A Star Wars MMO seems to be doomed by its name. While the Star Wars Universe is full of diverse species and professions a MMO would not be. Even before the NGE this was a problem. You could change the time line but really in the end what good is that going to do? You still end up with a game full of Jedi.
Balancing Jedi with every other class wouldn't matter either. Fitting them in to their niche as WoW has done with its classes would probably be just as bad. The only way I could see there being any real diversity would be to have a game full of jedi and then have seperate classes for the jedi. Kind of like a mix of the pre nge SWG and WoW. You would have to chose whether you wanted to be a healing jedi (priest) a tank jedi (warrior) etc... As long as people have a lightsaber it might work. Not a perfect fix but unless something changes with peoples perception of jedi and star wars the "popular class" issue will always be a problem.
I am not flaming Jedi it is just an observation from a player that has been in the game for over 2 years. It seems like everyone had or was working on being a Jedi. Why have over 30 professions when the majority of players only really want one.
After the expansion, no. In general, I'm not sure these grounds have been travelled well enough to be sure. I'd say, depends on the motivations of the developers. If it is to save SWG from certain death, then yes. If it is to make MORE money (it is already profitable) then I'd say no.
Im sorry but the ends really can't justify the means. It was very unethical no matter what the reasons are.
People have their self image directly tied to their SWG experience. There is NO WAY that they are leaving gracefully. Even with a refund for Trials of Obi-Wan, there's nobody gracefully accepting it. Oh, they're accepting it, but anyway but gracefully.The SWG is the most spoiled playerbase of any MMORPG out there. I'm not sure including them in on the plans would work any better, if not being a generally bad idea. When they see the changes, they'll complain and demand other changes - and when the changes go through anyway, they'll get even more upset. I believe it is best to take away any illusion of input on this matter. SOE can listen later, but right now, they have higher priorities.
The SWG playerbase may be the most spoiled and yet they are the worst treated. Could anything make the playerbase happy? I am not really sure but ignoring the customer is really never a good idea. SOE has locked themselves away from the community for a long time now. This creates anger. Communication is the key to any MMO. Blizzard has devs/mods post all the time on their forums. Since WoW is now the industry standard SOE could take a few pointers from them in their customer service.
I really doubt it. Most people venting against the NGE are doing so in the most offensive and destructive manner possible. Any third party who doesn't have self esteem issues is not going to take such statements at face value. I suspect that they'll try the game first (good thing there is a trial available) and make up their minds based on the game itself. As the NGE has some issues, but is generally not the horrific doom that people say it is, low expectations will lead to generally better than average opinions. Also, in a few months, some of these vets that quit in disgust will come back. Some will like the new system. It's happened before.In six months, SOE will release a new expansion, probably something high profile, like Hoth, that will prompt game websites to revisit the quality of the game. If they've got the bugs worked out and the expansion is generally of a wholesome quality, the public perception of SWG will be swayed considerably. Ultimately, I doubt this backlash will amount to much in the long run, and the quality of the NGE will be far more important.
Once again I don't totally disagree with you but I really can't support everything you say. This is something new to the industry and no one really knows what is going to happen. You may be right or you may be totally off. All of the bad publicity may kill the game. It is far to early to tell and since something like this has never really happened before all anyone can do is sit back and wait.
That's Sony BMG, not Sony Online Entertainment. Sure, they both have "Sony" in the name, but they are completely different companies. Plus, the root-kit will be a bad memory in a few months.
While you are correct it is not in essence the same company people see the name Sony and this is what they think. It does not matter if it is correct or not. This will not help the sales of any product with the name of Sony on it. While the news may fade from the media it will stay in the minds of the consumer. It always does. I still remember the rumor of the Life cereal kid dieing from POP Rocks candy. While it wasn't true it does not matter.
That is not an option. The NGE is a significant change to SWG, but it isn't a new engine. All the art assets have remained, making it possible to release the NGE in six months instead of three years. Likewise, major portions of SWG remain the same, from owning houses to flying x-wings in space. The scripting system and graphics engine are the same. This means that they can focus completely on adding content rather than reinventing the wheel - and you KNOW that if they released SWG 2 with the exact same graphics and engine as SWG, people would bitch about it. In fact, if they closed down SWG at all, people would bitch about it. The NGE just focuses the bitching a bit better.
With the NGE they have reinvented the wheel. I understand the point you are making but it seems to go against everything that the NGE is. Content could have and should have been added a long time ago. If the NGE had not happened wouldn't this have freed up even more time to fix the bugs and add content? Was the CU so bad that it couldn't have been fixed? I dont think so. Think of all of the time and resources that have been put in to the NGE that could have been put in to content and bug fixing. All the NGE has done is create a new set of bugs and even more lag. Now that needs to be fixed as well. The NGE just seems like a waste of time. I am not saying I hate it or like it. Just seems like wasted resources.
4. If this succeeds, will it embolden other publishers with MMOs that have lacklustre sales to nuke the old game and bring in something completely new?
The NGE is not "completely new". It has some big changes, but they do not fundamentally alter the game. SWG didn't become PlanetSide. It's still SWG, though with a new direction and feel.
I think such a change was enevitable. That it was SWG is not surprising, seeing as it is a huge license and shutting it down prematurely is just not an option. But I wouldn't be surprised if other companies did similar changes, though perhaps learning from SOE's mistakes. Since the CU, Everquest 2 had a successful combat revamp, and a much anticipated combat revamp is happening to Matrix Online. Both are working out better than SWG's.
You'll notice that when one MMORPG has a feature, it starts showing up in all the other MMORPGs. Player housing and instance dungeons are examples of features that started in one MMORPG and quickly migrated to the other ones through expansion packs. Most of the combat systems are identical, at least enough that if you know how a healer works in DAoC then you can function in Everquest in the same role. If somebody comes up with a better way to do combat and it really catches on, don't be surprised if it gets integrated into older games. SWG is actually kind of interesting in that they are literally trying to invent the wheel (Neocron is the only other one I can think of) based on their own space expansion.
In some ways I agree with you yet again. All the NGE really did was take things away from SWG while offering very little in exchange. So in essence it is the same game with less than it had before. Can you honestly say at this point in the NGE that it is any other way? Maybe at some point down the road it could be but as of right now SWG is an unfinished shell of what it was and more importantly what it could be.
Yes.
I agree. It's a pretty safe bet that SOE is going to milk this cash cow for all they can. They are paying for it and it would be stupid not to.
It's always about the players. Those players who spam the forums with disgusting images, or 50 pt text saying "ROLLBACK!", who spam Ebgames.com and amazon.com with biased and unfair reviews, and generally troll around like the world owes them something. I will fully admit that there were some things that SOE could've done differently, though perhaps it is only obvious in hindsight. However, please understand that the players are by no means innocent bystandards, and that they actively campaign to make it worse for themselves. It's a victim complex played out to the point where EVERYTHING is a "slap in the face". Would this backlash be half as bad if SOE just shut down the forums for a few weeks after the NGE was announced? Without the trolls there to fuel the fire and make people think that their self righteous opinions were shared by a majority (when they most certainly are not), I promise you that the NGE would be little more than the blip on the radar.
SOE has broken every rule of good customer service. Love the NGE or hate it this is something everyone should agree on. Bad customer service could very well be the end of SWG. SOE has to change their way of thinking as far as their customers are concerned. It is going to be their downfall. Look around at the other MMO companies out there. You know they are watching and learning from every mistake that SOE has made.
with the NGE the game lost all content it ever had.
it's a boring point and click "shooter" that even misses the thrill of a good shooter/FPS.
faster pussycat - kill kill kill
How can we give something a chance that is such a buggy incomplete piece of garbadge? Soe has demonstrated their lack of profession in this matter by A. Not Listening to their existing player base B. Releasing a product into a live server that is not fit for Beta testing and maybe even Alpha testing yes its that buggy C. SOE lies plain and simple. Remember the comments from Smed "our players overwhelminly support these changes" when in fact the opposite was true. New players beware the tutorial is not how the rest of the game is, and SOE has a tradition of lying and cheating its customers. Not only would I avoid SWG I would avoid anything by SOE period.
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While it would be undeniable to say that MMORPGs and games in general need change, I do question your stance that THIS change is what is necessary. Is it not permissible to question the nature and delivery of change? Must we submit our subscriber revenue and "take one for the team?" Surely, a subscription deserves SOME respect. While your disdain probably stems from customer service aggravation during your time in the industry, it is not appreciated from the customer point of view needless to say.
Not to defend the namecaller, but I'm particularly disgusted by the NGE and direction of the game. I renewed my three accounts for a year recently and intend to quit well in advance of the account expirations.
Is playerbase opposition always to be belittled? I'm appalled at your disdain. I've played continuously since I started. I'm a little weary of SOE/LA's promises and changes.
And in regards to your acerbic replies with the troll from earlier, it's difficult to assert that the whiners from pre-CU are the same people that whine pre-NGE. Considering player attrition and the changing up of the playerbase, I think it's fair to say that a great portion of the new complaints are from completely different people. So it's more of the same if you consider player opposition enmass, but it's not like the same people are whining.