I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
- Graphics are subjective matter, for one I really enjoy Neverwinter's graphics. But, I understand that this might not be for everyone. I also enjoy retro looking games too and have a good time with those games also... So its always a subjective thing. Your ideal is not my ideal so to speak.
- Questing seems to always follow the EQ/WOW method mainly because it is immediately identifiable by players looking to hop on and off. Some people like quests, some people don't. Personally I like quests, but mainly when they follow a story, such as TSW.
- Untrue statement, this depends from game to game.
- Not every game has to 'innovate' typically free to play games often lack the 'funding' to add real innovation. They are there to be enjoyed. If you do, then great if you don't then don't play.
- Again not true! Goodness your disdain for the F2P model is clearly apparent. Why not explain your freaking arguments! Why does it feel like that to you? What are you comparing it to? What combat method do you enjoy?? Myself I like variation. I do enjoy WoW/Rift and EQ based fighting systems, although I have been playing MMO's with that system for a long time now so I am really digging TSW and Neverwinters combat system. If I am honest, Neverwinters combat system is the first I have enjoyed in such a long time.
I will say I do not enjoy SWTOR system, even though it is tab targeting like WoW it just feels a bit...slow. I also don't like Guild Wars 2 combat either, that feels a bit too splash happy. Again all subjective.
I believe I have answered your questions.
Also, don't insult people for enjoying F2P games, makes you look moronic. For the record I DO enjoy F2P games, but I also enjoy paid games, indie game, retro games. Believe it or not... I am a gamer! We like more thing in our freaking field!
If I am honest I am really digging kickstarter at the moment for gaming, bought into so many games one there including all those delicious table top games!
No, i'm not talking about older games, I am including Dragon's Prophet when I'm talking about F2p games. And that game isn't very good imo.
A bad tipple A game has been, by far, more entertaining than the so called "best" f2p's.
The reason why I ask is because the model is gaining steam, but it sets the bar lower than the bar is already being set at with pay games.
It is disturbing and I want to know what the mind set is behind it.
The genre is already become just so bad in recent years with casual players, crossing genre lines, and other really bad "appeal to the masses" trends, that I fear this F2P trend is going to be the final nail in the coffin unless something turns around fast.
Unless EQN shows me something really different, or shows me more traditional MMO mechanics ( im talking pre 2005 traditional, where mmos where social, difficult and rewarding) I will probably sell my gaming computer and move on.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
Why is FTP popular? Demographic shift combined with the boiling lobster effect.
Demographic:
In Italy, there is a 38% unemployment with young capable workers, but 200,000 unfilled labor job openings. In America, we have to turn to mass immigration to get jobs filled at the same time as young people try to spend their entire life in comforts of Academia. Our entire western existence is saturated with signs saying 'Don't work! Just vote, and the Government will feed you'. So now we have a lot more hopeless players wanting to be powerful but do not have the money to pay for it.
Boiling Lobster:
At first the players pay nothing and slowly the developers make it cost more and more money to progress. Slowly turning the heat up on the water, and the players contently transform into surf and turf. Cha-ching!
-How many games have we bought the hype only to be disappointed and feeling mislead
-In case you haven't noticed many economies are in a shambles.Discretionary income is minimal for too many
-The pool of people who game has become much more experienced...and skeptical
-The ongoing parade of poor games confirms the instincts of the player pool.They aren't easily persuaded to pop down $59 and hope.
Video gaming is an extremely inexpensive hobby, so long as you already have the PC or console hardware. Even if you only get 20 hours of entertainment out of a $59 game, that's only $3 per hour. That's less expensive than most movies, going out for drinks, dinner, etc. If $59 were a major investment for me, I think I would consider taking advantage of government sponsored learning programs. These fill your free time, generally cost little to nothing and open doors to better paying jobs.
Edit: As for sub games, if you play only 5 hours per month (1.25 hours per week), you hit that same $3 per hour cost.
All true. But what was the last game i spend 20+ hours? Or even had that much gameplay(for single player games). And how many games i just spend 1 hour, or a few hours, or not even a hour? I could most probably name a good dozen games i bought, which i did not played any longer than 1 hour. (actually downloading, installing, uninstalling took more time then playing)
And with that said, i am not great into F2P games, because even searching for decent F2P games may take to long for the little pleasure they have to offer. But with F2P games like Dota2 (one of the few which i actually played) i have played more than with most games i bought. (not that much as with any Civilization game, but that is another story)
So don't play games that don't appeal to you. It's really really simple but the pro sub-lock people don't get it. You have your quality sub-locked games and everything else you're wondering has already been explained in the multitudinous threads where people just like you are worried that other people are playing games you don't like.
This will help you along, the genre has gotten more complicated and things don't fit into neat little boxes anymore.
Thats always the easy cop out answer right?
Don't play them if you dont like them.
The games and the genre that I do like is getting perverted by people who were outside of the genre that are complaining about aspects that traditional mmo fans liked, and the developers are doing it because they represent the most money.
My games are disappearing, its not about playing or not playing.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
As the years go by, I find myself more and more interested in F2P/B2P. There are too many games that aren't worth buying and subbing. However, most F2P games are trash, and a lot of their cash shops make me not play. I feel that cash shops are becoming more reasonable and devs are starting to understand what people want from them. I'm still willing to sub to games, but how many games are worth subbing to these days?
I think the appeal is pretty simple. You get to try and play the game for free. After that, it's up to the player to choose whether to use the cash shop or not.
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone's mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
Elements in your list cover quite a few subscription based games too. I for one am tired of paying for games that is mediocre at best and usually just a reskined bag of crap. With f2p I can try it and if I like it will bung some cash in there to make my life easier, if I don't it get uninstalled and will fade into distant memory.
I used to be a 100% subs only MMO player but recent releases (over the last couple of years) has me burnt, bitten and twice shy... lesson learnt, no more.
Originally posted by Thorkune Due to my work schedule, F2P is the best option for me. I don't get to play enough to justify a subscription.
This is primarily my reason.
Second reason is taste. I do not like WoW, but I like Rift (which many simply accuse of being a WoW clone). Which is kind of funny as they follow essentially the same formula with some minor tweeks on Rifts part. However it is those tweeks that make my time in Rift far more enjoyable. So to me Wow (being one of 2 titles still slinging to the P2P model) is not worth it. But Rift, even prior to the f2p conversion, is worth my sub. f2p is just going to make it easier to play imho.
Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going! --> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <-- Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
First of all F2P means lowering the entry barrier. There are a lot of ppl never played a MMORPG before and are not used to pay a monthly sub.. for them it is a lot easier to pick up any F2P game.
The same is true for ppl not playing a lot, or never bought any computer game. For them it is easier to start playing with a F2P game, and they may get hooked.
About your complains. Look at games like Age of Conan or Star Wars the Old republic... they are both F2P now, to lowering the entry barrier. Are the graphics really just "meh"?
Hmm you really can't use games that has NOT been FTP from the get go as an example..These games where produced as PTP titles with a lot of money used in developing them based on how many boxed they thought they would sell on release day plus they had a subscription..
What he is talking about is games that is produced as FTP ONLY from the start, and I agree with him the overall quality between such games is HUGE..
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
First of all F2P means lowering the entry barrier. There are a lot of ppl never played a MMORPG before and are not used to pay a monthly sub.. for them it is a lot easier to pick up any F2P game.
The same is true for ppl not playing a lot, or never bought any computer game. For them it is easier to start playing with a F2P game, and they may get hooked.
About your complains. Look at games like Age of Conan or Star Wars the Old republic... they are both F2P now, to lowering the entry barrier. Are the graphics really just "meh"?
Hmm you really can't use games that has NOT been FTP from the get go as an example..These games where produced as PTP titles with a lot of money used in developing them based on how many boxed they thought they would sell on release day plus they had a subscription..
What he is talking about is games that is produced as FTP ONLY from the start, and I agree with him the overall quality between such games is HUGE..
Sure we can. As recent interviews from devs (TSW, SWTOR) have stated the games were designed from the start with being able to switch easily to f2p.
IMO the overall quality between all f2p and all p2p is the same. some really good in both, some really bad in both, about the same between both.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone's mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
All these F2P MMOS were once P2P.
So the list seems ironic because you are trying to make these as some kind of staple feature for F2P MMOS.
However, NW is the recent MMO which launched as F2P and PS2 even graphics of these two titles are not meh.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone's mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
WoW's graphics are pretty "meh".
WoW's gameplay is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
WoW has a lot of classes for the same role... might as well just cut all the inferior classes and have 1 anyway.
WoW spouts the same bullshit from the new content all the time, just done a billion billion times over so they just look like rehashed pieces of trite.
Okay, I'll admit WoW's combat is better than being made in someone's garage, but it's not a robust combat system either. SMACK SMACK KEYBOARD SMACK! *click for autol00tz*
I kid, but what do you think of DDO, Salem, etc? Since they're free... at least you can grind for the paid store stuff, anywho. Also, LOTRO and DDO were once P2P. RIFT, TERA (which was B2P, of course) are also going F2P to try and stay competitive.
I will be honest I think like Mark Jacobs does from Camelot Unchained. Right now there is F2P, hybrid F2P P2P, B2P and P2P. The current situation is the F2P and Hybrid models are just about all MMOs are going to. (See the latest Rift) It will be good for a little while however I agree with Mark in the fact that MMOs today are costing Millions of dollars and several years to develop and with Free to play that market of cash shop buyers will dry up. Just like any free to play game, at first there is a rush to buy all kinds of stuff from a cash shop with players that are impulse buyers. What will happen to these players is after some time they will either run out of money because they are impulse buying or they will figure out how much more money they spent on cash shops than on a $12 or $15 a month subscription. If games like SWTOR who spent $250 million in just the original game think they will recoup all that money they spent by going F2P they are likely not going to. It’s too much money to rely on impulse buying, and the subscriptions are under 500K. With other games going F2P the impulse buys are also impulse players so they will rush off to the next F2P MMO fast Yea they might stick to a game like SWTOR on the side however not spend as much money anymore.
In the end the market for impulse buyers will dry up and games that spent too much money to develop games will close. Don’t think there are many publishers spending too much money on MMOs? Read the forbes article about Defiance being north of $100 Million. I doubt if Trion and SyFy will ever recoup that money. Trion will not recoup the money they spent on End of Nations which is looking to be an $80 Million range too. Rift was $50 Million range and this is one of the few games that been created that will break even or make money.
Whether anyone likes it or not businesses have to make money to stay afloat. F2P is just a phase and throwing a line in the water to get a piece of the pie that is left. When it dries up publishers will close. The only reason why F2P is popular now is the fact that too many publishers are spending near or over $100 Million in hopes of becoming the next Blizzard. However the fact is no one really understands why Blizzard made the money they did. First Blizzard created a game that the industry was sorely lacking and was lucky not to get hacked like Sony did around the time of EQ2. Second Blizzard said hey the most ever in an MMO was 500K players so we will prepare for that. Anyone remember what happened when the game dropped? Servers were offline because there were too few servers for the amount of players that wanted to play. Blizzard had made a reputation of being a GOOD PC gaming company. They made very good games in Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo. All were for their times very well polished games and WoW was no different. So more than 500K players wanted to play and jumped on so Blizzard quickly had to expand. Third Blizzard spent about $63 Million to make WoW, and WoW was built under the impression that it was going to be 3 to 4 years before an expansion not 2 like today. With 500K subs at $15 a month Blizzard was making 7.5 Million each month. It was going to take if all 500K subscriptions held 9 months to pay off the $63 Million in development cost. That does not include operational cost or anything else. Well Blizzard hit the Jackpot and got what 4 to 5 Million people playing during Vanilla. That’s 10 times the amount they planned for.
Now back to F2P. Too many games are going north of $100 Million and planning on going Free to play out of the gate or hybrid. They are also starting to charge $200 for the collector’s edition and $40 for a mount in game. The prices will continue to go up to try to make money the problem is there are too many players that see F2P and will not spend but a few bucks here and there on the game. $50 a year on a game will not get back what the business model for the game was. Many games are going F2P in hopes of getting more players that will at least spend some money, it will work however it will not be sustainable.
Yes F2P games designed by Indian companies as well as cheap games with very low dev budgets will make money however like Mark says spending $20 Million on a game and going F2P will soon not be a smart idea. Spending $100 Million and going F2P not a smart idea either.
What we will see is an evolution of P2P models. For too long everyone used the $15 per month model since SWG. Prior to that most MMOs were 12.99 a month, and now SOE has come up with a 3 tiered Model. One free to play the other that is $5 a month and both revolve around casual play and soloing more than group content. The $15 a month sub is for raiders and PVPers. This is a good P2P model that I think other companies will adapt to and will also focus at smaller markets and not being the 12 Million Sub game that WoW is. Like Mark said games will focus on PVP or PVE and look at $500k paying members they will also look at trying to spend $50 Million not over $100 million with that many subs.
O and here is a devil’s advocate? What would happen to the MMO market if WoW goes F2P? They are loosen subs so I wouldn’t put it past Blizzard to do it. They already made a killing off selling pets, transfers name changes and everything else. What if they went to a Hybrid F2P model? How many people think that the current F2P players will stay in Rift, SWTOR or other F2P games? Some will I can however see a drove of people going to Blizzard. Blizzard does not need to make more money on WoW they hit their jackpot so at this point anything they make is profit after operation cost. How many Publishers will survive a F2P WoW that spent $100 Million on developing a game or $250 Million?
Think about the logic and the business behind it what I said. I will not reply to the F2P is the best enough said comments.
I will be honest I think like Mark Jacobs does from Camelot Unchained. Right now there is F2P, hybrid F2P P2P, B2P and P2P. The current situation is the F2P and Hybrid models are just about all MMOs are going to. (See the latest Rift) It will be good for a little while however I agree with Mark in the fact that MMOs today are costing Millions of dollars and several years to develop and with Free to play that market of cash shop buyers will dry up. Just like any free to play game, at first there is a rush to buy all kinds of stuff from a cash shop with players that are impulse buyers. What will happen to these players is after some time they will either run out of money because they are impulse buying or they will figure out how much more money they spent on cash shops than on a $12 or $15 a month subscription. If games like SWTOR who spent $250 million in just the original game think they will recoup all that money they spent by going F2P they are likely not going to. It’s too much money to rely on impulse buying, and the subscriptions are under 500K. With other games going F2P the impulse buys are also impulse players so they will rush off to the next F2P MMO fast Yea they might stick to a game like SWTOR on the side however not spend as much money anymore.
In the end the market for impulse buyers will dry up and games that spent too much money to develop games will close. Don’t think there are many publishers spending too much money on MMOs? Read the forbes article about Defiance being north of $100 Million. I doubt if Trion and SyFy will ever recoup that money. Trion will not recoup the money they spent on End of Nations which is looking to be an $80 Million range too. Rift was $50 Million range and this is one of the few games that been created that will break even or make money.
Whether anyone likes it or not businesses have to make money to stay afloat. F2P is just a phase and throwing a line in the water to get a piece of the pie that is left. When it dries up publishers will close. The only reason why F2P is popular now is the fact that too many publishers are spending near or over $100 Million in hopes of becoming the next Blizzard. However the fact is no one really understands why Blizzard made the money they did. First Blizzard created a game that the industry was sorely lacking and was lucky not to get hacked like Sony did around the time of EQ2. Second Blizzard said hey the most ever in an MMO was 500K players so we will prepare for that. Anyone remember what happened when the game dropped? Servers were offline because there were too few servers for the amount of players that wanted to play. Blizzard had made a reputation of being a GOOD PC gaming company. They made very good games in Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo. All were for their times very well polished games and WoW was no different. So more than 500K players wanted to play and jumped on so Blizzard quickly had to expand. Third Blizzard spent about $63 Million to make WoW, and WoW was built under the impression that it was going to be 3 to 4 years before an expansion not 2 like today. With 500K subs at $15 a month Blizzard was making 7.5 Million each month. It was going to take if all 500K subscriptions held 9 months to pay off the $63 Million in development cost. That does not include operational cost or anything else. Well Blizzard hit the Jackpot and got what 4 to 5 Million people playing during Vanilla. That’s 10 times the amount they planned for.
Now back to F2P. Too many games are going north of $100 Million and planning on going Free to play out of the gate or hybrid. They are also starting to charge $200 for the collector’s edition and $40 for a mount in game. The prices will continue to go up to try to make money the problem is there are too many players that see F2P and will not spend but a few bucks here and there on the game. $50 a year on a game will not get back what the business model for the game was. Many games are going F2P in hopes of getting more players that will at least spend some money, it will work however it will not be sustainable.
Yes F2P games designed by Indian companies as well as cheap games with very low dev budgets will make money however like Mark says spending $20 Million on a game and going F2P will soon not be a smart idea. Spending $100 Million and going F2P not a smart idea either.
What we will see is an evolution of P2P models. For too long everyone used the $15 per month model since SWG. Prior to that most MMOs were 12.99 a month, and now SOE has come up with a 3 tiered Model. One free to play the other that is $5 a month and both revolve around casual play and soloing more than group content. The $15 a month sub is for raiders and PVPers. This is a good P2P model that I think other companies will adapt to and will also focus at smaller markets and not being the 12 Million Sub game that WoW is. Like Mark said games will focus on PVP or PVE and look at $500k paying members they will also look at trying to spend $50 Million not over $100 million with that many subs.
O and here is a devil’s advocate? What would happen to the MMO market if WoW goes F2P? They are loosen subs so I wouldn’t put it past Blizzard to do it. They already made a killing off selling pets, transfers name changes and everything else. What if they went to a Hybrid F2P model? How many people think that the current F2P players will stay in Rift, SWTOR or other F2P games? Some will I can however see a drove of people going to Blizzard. Blizzard does not need to make more money on WoW they hit their jackpot so at this point anything they make is profit after operation cost. How many Publishers will survive a F2P WoW that spent $100 Million on developing a game or $250 Million?
Think about the logic and the business behind it what I said. I will not reply to the F2P is the best enough said comments.
I guess the issue I see is, they wont be breaking even by staying sub either, or they might have to spend several million MORE in order to get their games to a point where people "might" subscribe. Its a lose/lose situation.
I keep hearing people saying, "well they should just make games good" What does that even mean? Good to who? I'm sure there are alot of people who loved DDO/Lotro before F2P, plenty of people loved swtor before F2P, there just wasnt enough of them around. To me that's just a meaningless phrase.
The root of all these problems? Video games became big business, big enough to have eclipsed hollywood. Investors dont want to wait 5-10 years to maybe see a return on their investment, from an unknown company
I will be honest I think like Mark Jacobs does from Camelot Unchained. Right now there is F2P, hybrid F2P P2P, B2P and P2P. The current situation is the F2P and Hybrid models are just about all MMOs are going to. (See the latest Rift) It will be good for a little while however I agree with Mark in the fact that MMOs today are costing Millions of dollars and several years to develop and with Free to play that market of cash shop buyers will dry up. Just like any free to play game, at first there is a rush to buy all kinds of stuff from a cash shop with players that are impulse buyers. What will happen to these players is after some time they will either run out of money because they are impulse buying or they will figure out how much more money they spent on cash shops than on a $12 or $15 a month subscription. If games like SWTOR who spent $250 million in just the original game think they will recoup all that money they spent by going F2P they are likely not going to. It’s too much money to rely on impulse buying, and the subscriptions are under 500K. With other games going F2P the impulse buys are also impulse players so they will rush off to the next F2P MMO fast Yea they might stick to a game like SWTOR on the side however not spend as much money anymore.
In the end the market for impulse buyers will dry up and games that spent too much money to develop games will close. Don’t think there are many publishers spending too much money on MMOs? Read the forbes article about Defiance being north of $100 Million. I doubt if Trion and SyFy will ever recoup that money. Trion will not recoup the money they spent on End of Nations which is looking to be an $80 Million range too. Rift was $50 Million range and this is one of the few games that been created that will break even or make money.
Whether anyone likes it or not businesses have to make money to stay afloat. F2P is just a phase and throwing a line in the water to get a piece of the pie that is left. When it dries up publishers will close. The only reason why F2P is popular now is the fact that too many publishers are spending near or over $100 Million in hopes of becoming the next Blizzard. However the fact is no one really understands why Blizzard made the money they did. First Blizzard created a game that the industry was sorely lacking and was lucky not to get hacked like Sony did around the time of EQ2. Second Blizzard said hey the most ever in an MMO was 500K players so we will prepare for that. Anyone remember what happened when the game dropped? Servers were offline because there were too few servers for the amount of players that wanted to play. Blizzard had made a reputation of being a GOOD PC gaming company. They made very good games in Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo. All were for their times very well polished games and WoW was no different. So more than 500K players wanted to play and jumped on so Blizzard quickly had to expand. Third Blizzard spent about $63 Million to make WoW, and WoW was built under the impression that it was going to be 3 to 4 years before an expansion not 2 like today. With 500K subs at $15 a month Blizzard was making 7.5 Million each month. It was going to take if all 500K subscriptions held 9 months to pay off the $63 Million in development cost. That does not include operational cost or anything else. Well Blizzard hit the Jackpot and got what 4 to 5 Million people playing during Vanilla. That’s 10 times the amount they planned for.
Now back to F2P. Too many games are going north of $100 Million and planning on going Free to play out of the gate or hybrid. They are also starting to charge $200 for the collector’s edition and $40 for a mount in game. The prices will continue to go up to try to make money the problem is there are too many players that see F2P and will not spend but a few bucks here and there on the game. $50 a year on a game will not get back what the business model for the game was. Many games are going F2P in hopes of getting more players that will at least spend some money, it will work however it will not be sustainable.
Yes F2P games designed by Indian companies as well as cheap games with very low dev budgets will make money however like Mark says spending $20 Million on a game and going F2P will soon not be a smart idea. Spending $100 Million and going F2P not a smart idea either.
What we will see is an evolution of P2P models. For too long everyone used the $15 per month model since SWG. Prior to that most MMOs were 12.99 a month, and now SOE has come up with a 3 tiered Model. One free to play the other that is $5 a month and both revolve around casual play and soloing more than group content. The $15 a month sub is for raiders and PVPers. This is a good P2P model that I think other companies will adapt to and will also focus at smaller markets and not being the 12 Million Sub game that WoW is. Like Mark said games will focus on PVP or PVE and look at $500k paying members they will also look at trying to spend $50 Million not over $100 million with that many subs.
O and here is a devil’s advocate? What would happen to the MMO market if WoW goes F2P? They are loosen subs so I wouldn’t put it past Blizzard to do it. They already made a killing off selling pets, transfers name changes and everything else. What if they went to a Hybrid F2P model? How many people think that the current F2P players will stay in Rift, SWTOR or other F2P games? Some will I can however see a drove of people going to Blizzard. Blizzard does not need to make more money on WoW they hit their jackpot so at this point anything they make is profit after operation cost. How many Publishers will survive a F2P WoW that spent $100 Million on developing a game or $250 Million?
Think about the logic and the business behind it what I said. I will not reply to the F2P is the best enough said comments.
I guess the issue I see is, they wont be breaking even by staying sub either, or they might have to spend several million MORE in order to get their games to a point where people "might" subscribe. Its a lose/lose situation.
I keep hearing people saying, "well they should just make games good" What does that even mean? Good to who? I'm sure there are alot of people who loved DDO/Lotro before F2P, plenty of people loved swtor before F2P, there just wasnt enough of them around. To me that's just a meaningless phrase.
The root of all these problems? Video games became big business, big enough to have eclipsed hollywood. Investors dont want to wait 5-10 years to maybe see a return on their investment, from an unknown company
That is true that these games will not turn a profit with subs and some will have a huge problem turning a profit F2P but they will make a little bit more for a short period of time. If the game cost $5 Million and was F2P you could recoup that through a good cash shop. Not if the game cost $80, $100, $250 Million.
I agree that good games are meaningless phrase because what work and what does not work is the key. What does not work is having content burnt through in 3 weeks. What works is 6 months to a year of content when a game releases. So what if it takes a casual 4 or 5 months to level. Its not done in 3 weeks and all focus on end game.
There is another root too to the problem. Too many MMOs for a medium size market. Games now shoot for millions of subs not 500K like Wow did, EQ2, SWG, and so on, on a medium size budget and expected a year to turn a profit. Fewer MMOs would mean players would play 1 or 2 of the dozen games on the market. Not 6 to 12 different games over the course of a year and done all the content.
They make far more money than P2P games and gamers are too stubborn to play a sub game higher than $15/mo so you have F2P games. Until we as gamers wake up it will continue to be like this, pay money to enjoy the game.
OP's question should be split into two different ones :
- Why are there not enough players anymore that prefer p2p?
- Why did many game companies decide that the pure p2p payment model is something from the past?
I guess one question is the answer for the other.
The OP just thinks that players that don't blindly go for p2p are cheap asses. But in the real world is it thankfully about competition, offer and demand. Players compare MMO's and companies respond to that (with some delay due to the long game development times). So if one company starts to lower the entry point and it is financially succesful, there will be more companies that follow. Especially after a few years when many p2p games lost subs real fast after release.
I don't know why the OP ( or some other posters in this thread) implies that players play a game because it is f2p. The main reason someone plays a game, is because it is fun. If it is cheap, that could just be a bonus. You don't play it because it is free while hating the game at the same time lol.
I really hope that the gamers will evolve and stop thinking in absolutes. Thinking in absolutes about game is imo a sign of stupidity or at least lack of imagination (don't go into business for your own sake). P2p doesn't guarantee quality and f2p doesn't mean that the game will be p2w. This is all up to the company that develops the game and is independant of the payment model they chose.
About twice a year, that title "please explain [X]?" is offered up with genuine sincerity.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
First of all F2P means lowering the entry barrier. There are a lot of ppl never played a MMORPG before and are not used to pay a monthly sub.. for them it is a lot easier to pick up any F2P game.
The same is true for ppl not playing a lot, or never bought any computer game. For them it is easier to start playing with a F2P game, and they may get hooked.
About your complains. Look at games like Age of Conan or Star Wars the Old republic... they are both F2P now, to lowering the entry barrier. Are the graphics really just "meh"?
Hmm you really can't use games that has NOT been FTP from the get go as an example..These games where produced as PTP titles with a lot of money used in developing them based on how many boxed they thought they would sell on release day plus they had a subscription..
What he is talking about is games that is produced as FTP ONLY from the start, and I agree with him the overall quality between such games is HUGE..
Sure we can. As recent interviews from devs (TSW, SWTOR) have stated the games were designed from the start with being able to switch easily to f2p.
IMO the overall quality between all f2p and all p2p is the same. some really good in both, some really bad in both, about the same between both.
NO you can't ...Since the money developing these games was way higher than any FTP title, also they were getting back money for their investment (to some degree at least)
Yeah..I know TSW game was prepared from the get go to switch over easily to FTP or BTP..But that was just a smart move and has nothing to do with a game made as FTP from the start..
They made TSW as a AAA subscription based game, but they failed to get as many subscribers that was needed, so they switched business model..
And ...NO way are there ANY REAL FTP title that can match the quality from Star Wars , TSW , Age of Conan or even Lord of the Rings online.. Or do you have a good example that I haven't heard of ?
Comments
- Graphics are subjective matter, for one I really enjoy Neverwinter's graphics. But, I understand that this might not be for everyone. I also enjoy retro looking games too and have a good time with those games also... So its always a subjective thing. Your ideal is not my ideal so to speak.
- Questing seems to always follow the EQ/WOW method mainly because it is immediately identifiable by players looking to hop on and off. Some people like quests, some people don't. Personally I like quests, but mainly when they follow a story, such as TSW.
- Untrue statement, this depends from game to game.
- Not every game has to 'innovate' typically free to play games often lack the 'funding' to add real innovation. They are there to be enjoyed. If you do, then great if you don't then don't play.
- Again not true! Goodness your disdain for the F2P model is clearly apparent. Why not explain your freaking arguments! Why does it feel like that to you? What are you comparing it to? What combat method do you enjoy?? Myself I like variation. I do enjoy WoW/Rift and EQ based fighting systems, although I have been playing MMO's with that system for a long time now so I am really digging TSW and Neverwinters combat system. If I am honest, Neverwinters combat system is the first I have enjoyed in such a long time.
I will say I do not enjoy SWTOR system, even though it is tab targeting like WoW it just feels a bit...slow. I also don't like Guild Wars 2 combat either, that feels a bit too splash happy. Again all subjective.
I believe I have answered your questions.
Also, don't insult people for enjoying F2P games, makes you look moronic. For the record I DO enjoy F2P games, but I also enjoy paid games, indie game, retro games. Believe it or not... I am a gamer! We like more thing in our freaking field!
If I am honest I am really digging kickstarter at the moment for gaming, bought into so many games one there including all those delicious table top games!
No, i'm not talking about older games, I am including Dragon's Prophet when I'm talking about F2p games. And that game isn't very good imo.
A bad tipple A game has been, by far, more entertaining than the so called "best" f2p's.
The reason why I ask is because the model is gaining steam, but it sets the bar lower than the bar is already being set at with pay games.
It is disturbing and I want to know what the mind set is behind it.
The genre is already become just so bad in recent years with casual players, crossing genre lines, and other really bad "appeal to the masses" trends, that I fear this F2P trend is going to be the final nail in the coffin unless something turns around fast.
Unless EQN shows me something really different, or shows me more traditional MMO mechanics ( im talking pre 2005 traditional, where mmos where social, difficult and rewarding) I will probably sell my gaming computer and move on.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
Why is FTP popular? Demographic shift combined with the boiling lobster effect.
Demographic:
In Italy, there is a 38% unemployment with young capable workers, but 200,000 unfilled labor job openings. In America, we have to turn to mass immigration to get jobs filled at the same time as young people try to spend their entire life in comforts of Academia. Our entire western existence is saturated with signs saying 'Don't work! Just vote, and the Government will feed you'. So now we have a lot more hopeless players wanting to be powerful but do not have the money to pay for it.
Boiling Lobster:
At first the players pay nothing and slowly the developers make it cost more and more money to progress. Slowly turning the heat up on the water, and the players contently transform into surf and turf. Cha-ching!
I'm hungry.
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
All true. But what was the last game i spend 20+ hours? Or even had that much gameplay(for single player games). And how many games i just spend 1 hour, or a few hours, or not even a hour? I could most probably name a good dozen games i bought, which i did not played any longer than 1 hour. (actually downloading, installing, uninstalling took more time then playing)
And with that said, i am not great into F2P games, because even searching for decent F2P games may take to long for the little pleasure they have to offer. But with F2P games like Dota2 (one of the few which i actually played) i have played more than with most games i bought. (not that much as with any Civilization game, but that is another story)
Thats always the easy cop out answer right?
Don't play them if you dont like them.
The games and the genre that I do like is getting perverted by people who were outside of the genre that are complaining about aspects that traditional mmo fans liked, and the developers are doing it because they represent the most money.
My games are disappearing, its not about playing or not playing.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
As the years go by, I find myself more and more interested in F2P/B2P. There are too many games that aren't worth buying and subbing. However, most F2P games are trash, and a lot of their cash shops make me not play. I feel that cash shops are becoming more reasonable and devs are starting to understand what people want from them. I'm still willing to sub to games, but how many games are worth subbing to these days?
I think the appeal is pretty simple. You get to try and play the game for free. After that, it's up to the player to choose whether to use the cash shop or not.
Elements in your list cover quite a few subscription based games too. I for one am tired of paying for games that is mediocre at best and usually just a reskined bag of crap. With f2p I can try it and if I like it will bung some cash in there to make my life easier, if I don't it get uninstalled and will fade into distant memory.
I used to be a 100% subs only MMO player but recent releases (over the last couple of years) has me burnt, bitten and twice shy... lesson learnt, no more.
This is primarily my reason.
Second reason is taste. I do not like WoW, but I like Rift (which many simply accuse of being a WoW clone). Which is kind of funny as they follow essentially the same formula with some minor tweeks on Rifts part. However it is those tweeks that make my time in Rift far more enjoyable. So to me Wow (being one of 2 titles still slinging to the P2P model) is not worth it. But Rift, even prior to the f2p conversion, is worth my sub. f2p is just going to make it easier to play imho.
--> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <--
Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
Well lets compare with the p2p games.
Graphics are about the same as most of them
Gameplay is about the same as most of them with the exclamation marks or other variety.
Number of classes is about the same and the same type
New content or recycled content is about the same
Combat and overall game feel is about the same
So overall - same experience, same quality, same level of development... and you can play free.
What was the problem again?
yeah but there is a schism between Asian f2p games and Western F2p games.
Dragon's Prophet looks like any number of Asian f2p games. Those always tend to look and feel cheap.
f2p is a business model so it can be represented by any type of game.
Planetside 2 is a f2p game. Doesn't feel like the asian f2p games.
Perhaps you can compare recently made "western games" (Neverwinter might be considered on the edge as it is owned by an Asian company)
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Sure we can. As recent interviews from devs (TSW, SWTOR) have stated the games were designed from the start with being able to switch easily to f2p.
IMO the overall quality between all f2p and all p2p is the same. some really good in both, some really bad in both, about the same between both.
All these F2P MMOS were once P2P.
So the list seems ironic because you are trying to make these as some kind of staple feature for F2P MMOS.
However, NW is the recent MMO which launched as F2P and PS2 even graphics of these two titles are not meh.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
WoW's graphics are pretty "meh".
WoW's gameplay is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
WoW has a lot of classes for the same role... might as well just cut all the inferior classes and have 1 anyway.
WoW spouts the same bullshit from the new content all the time, just done a billion billion times over so they just look like rehashed pieces of trite.
Okay, I'll admit WoW's combat is better than being made in someone's garage, but it's not a robust combat system either. SMACK SMACK KEYBOARD SMACK! *click for autol00tz*
I kid, but what do you think of DDO, Salem, etc? Since they're free... at least you can grind for the paid store stuff, anywho. Also, LOTRO and DDO were once P2P. RIFT, TERA (which was B2P, of course) are also going F2P to try and stay competitive.
I will be honest I think like Mark Jacobs does from Camelot Unchained. Right now there is F2P, hybrid F2P P2P, B2P and P2P. The current situation is the F2P and Hybrid models are just about all MMOs are going to. (See the latest Rift) It will be good for a little while however I agree with Mark in the fact that MMOs today are costing Millions of dollars and several years to develop and with Free to play that market of cash shop buyers will dry up. Just like any free to play game, at first there is a rush to buy all kinds of stuff from a cash shop with players that are impulse buyers. What will happen to these players is after some time they will either run out of money because they are impulse buying or they will figure out how much more money they spent on cash shops than on a $12 or $15 a month subscription. If games like SWTOR who spent $250 million in just the original game think they will recoup all that money they spent by going F2P they are likely not going to. It’s too much money to rely on impulse buying, and the subscriptions are under 500K. With other games going F2P the impulse buys are also impulse players so they will rush off to the next F2P MMO fast Yea they might stick to a game like SWTOR on the side however not spend as much money anymore.
In the end the market for impulse buyers will dry up and games that spent too much money to develop games will close. Don’t think there are many publishers spending too much money on MMOs? Read the forbes article about Defiance being north of $100 Million. I doubt if Trion and SyFy will ever recoup that money. Trion will not recoup the money they spent on End of Nations which is looking to be an $80 Million range too. Rift was $50 Million range and this is one of the few games that been created that will break even or make money.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2012/11/26/with-defiance-comcasts-syfy-bets-100m-on-convergence-of-tv-and-videogames/
Whether anyone likes it or not businesses have to make money to stay afloat. F2P is just a phase and throwing a line in the water to get a piece of the pie that is left. When it dries up publishers will close. The only reason why F2P is popular now is the fact that too many publishers are spending near or over $100 Million in hopes of becoming the next Blizzard. However the fact is no one really understands why Blizzard made the money they did. First Blizzard created a game that the industry was sorely lacking and was lucky not to get hacked like Sony did around the time of EQ2. Second Blizzard said hey the most ever in an MMO was 500K players so we will prepare for that. Anyone remember what happened when the game dropped? Servers were offline because there were too few servers for the amount of players that wanted to play. Blizzard had made a reputation of being a GOOD PC gaming company. They made very good games in Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo. All were for their times very well polished games and WoW was no different. So more than 500K players wanted to play and jumped on so Blizzard quickly had to expand. Third Blizzard spent about $63 Million to make WoW, and WoW was built under the impression that it was going to be 3 to 4 years before an expansion not 2 like today. With 500K subs at $15 a month Blizzard was making 7.5 Million each month. It was going to take if all 500K subscriptions held 9 months to pay off the $63 Million in development cost. That does not include operational cost or anything else. Well Blizzard hit the Jackpot and got what 4 to 5 Million people playing during Vanilla. That’s 10 times the amount they planned for.
Now back to F2P. Too many games are going north of $100 Million and planning on going Free to play out of the gate or hybrid. They are also starting to charge $200 for the collector’s edition and $40 for a mount in game. The prices will continue to go up to try to make money the problem is there are too many players that see F2P and will not spend but a few bucks here and there on the game. $50 a year on a game will not get back what the business model for the game was. Many games are going F2P in hopes of getting more players that will at least spend some money, it will work however it will not be sustainable.
Yes F2P games designed by Indian companies as well as cheap games with very low dev budgets will make money however like Mark says spending $20 Million on a game and going F2P will soon not be a smart idea. Spending $100 Million and going F2P not a smart idea either.
What we will see is an evolution of P2P models. For too long everyone used the $15 per month model since SWG. Prior to that most MMOs were 12.99 a month, and now SOE has come up with a 3 tiered Model. One free to play the other that is $5 a month and both revolve around casual play and soloing more than group content. The $15 a month sub is for raiders and PVPers. This is a good P2P model that I think other companies will adapt to and will also focus at smaller markets and not being the 12 Million Sub game that WoW is. Like Mark said games will focus on PVP or PVE and look at $500k paying members they will also look at trying to spend $50 Million not over $100 million with that many subs.
O and here is a devil’s advocate? What would happen to the MMO market if WoW goes F2P? They are loosen subs so I wouldn’t put it past Blizzard to do it. They already made a killing off selling pets, transfers name changes and everything else. What if they went to a Hybrid F2P model? How many people think that the current F2P players will stay in Rift, SWTOR or other F2P games? Some will I can however see a drove of people going to Blizzard. Blizzard does not need to make more money on WoW they hit their jackpot so at this point anything they make is profit after operation cost. How many Publishers will survive a F2P WoW that spent $100 Million on developing a game or $250 Million?
Think about the logic and the business behind it what I said. I will not reply to the F2P is the best enough said comments.
OP please list some non-F2P games that don't have these shortcomings.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
I guess the issue I see is, they wont be breaking even by staying sub either, or they might have to spend several million MORE in order to get their games to a point where people "might" subscribe. Its a lose/lose situation.
I keep hearing people saying, "well they should just make games good" What does that even mean? Good to who? I'm sure there are alot of people who loved DDO/Lotro before F2P, plenty of people loved swtor before F2P, there just wasnt enough of them around. To me that's just a meaningless phrase.
The root of all these problems? Video games became big business, big enough to have eclipsed hollywood. Investors dont want to wait 5-10 years to maybe see a return on their investment, from an unknown company
That is true that these games will not turn a profit with subs and some will have a huge problem turning a profit F2P but they will make a little bit more for a short period of time. If the game cost $5 Million and was F2P you could recoup that through a good cash shop. Not if the game cost $80, $100, $250 Million.
I agree that good games are meaningless phrase because what work and what does not work is the key. What does not work is having content burnt through in 3 weeks. What works is 6 months to a year of content when a game releases. So what if it takes a casual 4 or 5 months to level. Its not done in 3 weeks and all focus on end game.
There is another root too to the problem. Too many MMOs for a medium size market. Games now shoot for millions of subs not 500K like Wow did, EQ2, SWG, and so on, on a medium size budget and expected a year to turn a profit. Fewer MMOs would mean players would play 1 or 2 of the dozen games on the market. Not 6 to 12 different games over the course of a year and done all the content.
You must not have played many F2P games.
OP's question should be split into two different ones :
- Why are there not enough players anymore that prefer p2p?
- Why did many game companies decide that the pure p2p payment model is something from the past?
I guess one question is the answer for the other.
The OP just thinks that players that don't blindly go for p2p are cheap asses. But in the real world is it thankfully about competition, offer and demand. Players compare MMO's and companies respond to that (with some delay due to the long game development times). So if one company starts to lower the entry point and it is financially succesful, there will be more companies that follow. Especially after a few years when many p2p games lost subs real fast after release.
I don't know why the OP ( or some other posters in this thread) implies that players play a game because it is f2p. The main reason someone plays a game, is because it is fun. If it is cheap, that could just be a bonus. You don't play it because it is free while hating the game at the same time lol.
I really hope that the gamers will evolve and stop thinking in absolutes. Thinking in absolutes about game is imo a sign of stupidity or at least lack of imagination (don't go into business for your own sake). P2p doesn't guarantee quality and f2p doesn't mean that the game will be p2w. This is all up to the company that develops the game and is independant of the payment model they chose.
About twice a year, that title "please explain [X]?" is offered up with genuine sincerity.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
NO you can't ...Since the money developing these games was way higher than any FTP title, also they were getting back money for their investment (to some degree at least)
Yeah..I know TSW game was prepared from the get go to switch over easily to FTP or BTP..But that was just a smart move and has nothing to do with a game made as FTP from the start..
They made TSW as a AAA subscription based game, but they failed to get as many subscribers that was needed, so they switched business model..
And ...NO way are there ANY REAL FTP title that can match the quality from Star Wars , TSW , Age of Conan or even Lord of the Rings online.. Or do you have a good example that I haven't heard of ?