I dont mind p2p as long as it follows EVE's model. In EVE i get a passive bonus (skill points) no matter if I play a lot or (nearly) not at all. Thus I never feel like I wasted the monthly sub even if RL got a lot int the way.
Unfortunately in most p2p games today, your investment is just lost completely if you dont actively play during the period. (And no, a few unremarkable loyalty items dont really cut it as a passive bonus.)
10 to 15 dollars.. No Problem... But I dont want to see a cash store selling anything other than rugs and paintings to hang in your home.... Wait , sell houses for real money... Not bag's, mount's or swords!!! Sell a second character slot.If the game is good . We will pay.... Please listen SOE! ITS DRIVE ME NUTS TO SEE A CHEST DROP!!!! ALL YOU GOT TO DO IS BUY A KEY... OH THERE'S ANOTHER ONE, AND ANOTHER ONE. AND ANOTHER ONE. THERE OVER THERE TOO...
Originally posted by DamonVile Would I pay a sub to a game I had to buy for $60 and pay a sub or be locked out, ever again...I doubt it
What a load... Simply pay for another month of play and you're golden. You are NEVER, EVER locked out from playing for eternity.
I don't even know how to respond to your post. I mean...I explained exactly why I don't like sub only games and you answer with...just do exactly what keeps you from going back and you're golden.... Where did you even pull the whole locked out for eternity thing from ?
I misread the break in thoughts. My apologies.
Re-reading it again, I see that the "ever again" (underlined above) refers to you buying a sub game, not the locked out part, as I had read it originally.
No problem happens to me all the time. It wasn't very consistent with your normal posts, so glad it was just a misunderstanding.
Keep in mind, you're not only paying monthly game subs, but also, internet connection, have to up-date your comp to meet at least minimum requirement, and a box price.
That is over $100.00 a month even with $10.00 monthly sub, just to play an online game.
Originally posted by Grahor Please keep in mind that the population of the site is not representative of general gamers.
please keep in mind that nobody knows what the general gamers can be represented by - not even you.
Actually, we do know, however that stuff is all based on spending patterns, professional surveys, industry reports, and various other sources that seem to carry far less weight around here than anecdotal ramblings.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Keep in mind, you're not only paying monthly game subs, but also, internet connection, have to up-date your comp to meet at least minimum requirement, and a box price.
That is over $100.00 a month even with $10.00 monthly sub, just to play an online game.
Man, I didn't know f2p games came with free internet and computer upgrades! This argument seems very flawed.
You would need to update your computer and pay internet anyway, so you are paying box price and a sub, which the sub is a given, since that is the topic.
I do more than game with my internet connection/computer, like post on these forums, can we say posting here is costing me $100 a month and it isn't fair?!
Keep in mind, you're not only paying monthly game subs, but also, internet connection, have to up-date your comp to meet at least minimum requirement, and a box price.
That is over $100.00 a month even with $10.00 monthly sub, just to play an online game.
Man, I didn't know f2p games came with free internet and computer upgrades! This argument seems very flawed.
You would need to update your computer and pay internet anyway, so you are paying box price and a sub, which the sub is a given, since that is the topic.
I do more than game with my internet connection/computer, like post on these forums, can we say posting here is costing me $100 a month and it isn't fair?!
If you needed to upgrade your graphics card to post on these forums, I'd say you should be ecstatic you got that much mileage from whatever 3Dfx or trident card you were using.
I'm kidding, of course. You made a great point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I would definetly sub to a solid game thats a no brainer, the problem is there hasn't been a solid game for years now.
Closest thing ive found to a decent game has been Darkfall and that is no where near perfect but still worth my sub fee because it different and more immersive and no instancing than all the games out there.
What I've found so far with F2P is that they've sucked the enjoyment right out of progression in the MMORPG genre. Don't have time to play, no problem there is a cash shop item that fixes it right up and it's only a problem in the first place because the Devs have built those obstacles in deliberately. It's like working for a tire service company where you go around throwing tacks and nails all over the roads to get more business.
In F2P games you have items that let you level faster, sell you more bag space, craft faster, paid instant teleporting, even sell you in game currency and the list goes on and on. The other trend I see lately is where you just click on the quest text or on the map and the game runs your character there, makes me wonder why the developers even bother making maps and not just put everything required in a 10' x 10' room because having to move your own character around just sucks doesn't it. Soon there will be a cash shop item that plays the game for you, just for convenience of course.
What ever happened to the satisfaction you get when you finally receive a reward for the efforts you put into a game, you know the enjoyment of having to work for something and not just throw your credit card at it.
Maybe I'm Robinson Crusoe on this, but I just find that most games that I've played in the last few years to be empty shells compared to what I was used to playing in years gone by. I can only imagine what many of the current crop of gamers would think if they were presented with a half inch thick manual that you had to read if you wanted to be proficient in a game.
Keep in mind, you're not only paying monthly game subs, but also, internet connection, have to up-date your comp to meet at least minimum requirement, and a box price.
That is over $100.00 a month even with $10.00 monthly sub, just to play an online game.
Man, I didn't know f2p games came with free internet and computer upgrades! This argument seems very flawed.
You would need to update your computer and pay internet anyway, so you are paying box price and a sub, which the sub is a given, since that is the topic.
I do more than game with my internet connection/computer, like post on these forums, can we say posting here is costing me $100 a month and it isn't fair?!
I didn't say free to play games have free internet, I have not written any word about f2p games, you are confused mister.
I said $10 per month for entertainment is good enough price, plus the box price.
To compete with latest game graphics you need a lot more then $600 a year, plus, instead of $15 for internet you need at least $50 per month, electric bill higher, which is, because of watt consumption.
Yes, yes, I do a lot more on the internet too, but gaming consumes a lot more then regular internet.
Yes, in some cases it's an effort to save the game, in others it's the "business model". Though I would like to make my obligatory point that "free" doesn't make for good business so they aren't really free.
How much would people pay per month, that's an easy one, look at WoW, Perpetuum, Darkfall, Vendetta and EVE subs.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
SPti answer op question, I don't care if it's sub based or free to play with cash shop, it's just a payment method. I do however object to paying over the odds, and greed is the real issue with din games. If a cash shop game can survive and evolve with <£5 a month on average per person, then a sub game should charge the same.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I.e average price across the board regardless of mechani should be the same. It's interesting from an economics point of view that it is not - market forces are not working clearly and blizz (alone) are taking advantage here.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Attend4455 OP:I think you meant gamut rather than gambit.Yes, in some cases it's an effort to save the game, in others it's the "business model". Though I would like to make my obligatory point that "free" doesn't make for good business so they aren't really free.How much would people pay per month, that's an easy one, look at WoW, Perpetuum, Darkfall, Vendetta and EVE subs.
Gotta love the Grammar Nazi. You got the point of my post.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
I would and have had and will in the future. The problem now is that after being fooled once, twice, three and even four times. I have decided to wait on games. It's not worth purchasing a box price in the current state of gaming.
As i've been saying and be learning, f2p+open beta is just a no no anymore. I own a business, despite my rants and raves and drunken posts I have a solid business understanding.
A lot of the CEO's of these companies do their research. They KNOW that the game they are publishing will NOT keep people. So what to do? You basically take the early game conveniences ie bag space, vault space, hot bars, gamble boxes etc. (you get the picture) and you charge for this all the while making the game "free".
What this does is provide , usually a box price and trying to get the average consumer to spend 60-100$. Believe it or not most of these f2p games cover that. If you take companies like nexon, pwi and the major f2p publishers and look at their games. You will see that most of them the rate of retention at the max level is 1/10 of the amount of players at early levels.
There are those that stay doing the grinds, raids whatever these free to play titles offer. Generally the market appeals to those under 18. THey can play games for free, while getting gift cards on holidays / birthdays etc.
So, between grabbing as much cash as possible in the early game, and from the people that just cant afford it minus giftcards etc. it's a more profitable business model.
THe problem that you see arising is that games coming out free to play aren't just including unethical cash grabs in my opinion, they are putting out games that are completely UNFINISHED and a lot in the alpha stage of development. An insider that's a friend of an investor friend of mine told me that it's a "let's just get it playable and deal with it later" attitude.
There are no real consequences for publishers or developers because there is very little law or regulation in the online gaming market. Since the game is always evolving , "finished" is a matter of opinion and an even more grey area in terms of legality.
I grew up on very old principles and i am more and more turning to console games because most , even though this is changing, are ready to play with limited bugs. PC gaming is turning into a sesspool of disasters. It's unfortunate to see developers and game publishers take the low road of screwing over the people that pay their bills. This is going to ultimately catch up sooner or later. Either a monstrous lawsuit or a total disinterest in the genre.
I am rambling now and bored but tldr; i'd pay for anything decent and any company that believes in their product would put out something worth paying for instead of all this unfinished garbage and crap.
With the release of a gambit of new F2P MMOS currently out or coming soon, is this the way of the future for the Genre that we love? Many of the past P2P games switching business models after years on the market, is this a last ditch effort to save the game, or do they honestly think they can make more money with the F2P model? I personally have tried several of the current F2P MMOs with the cash shops and for the life of me, I just cant get into them. Example: Neverwinter, the prices are stupid. $30 for a mount.. Seriously? Ill gladly ride my slow non spectacular mount around town and save my $30.
There was a survey floating around recently,from a Archeage fansite. One of the questions asked how much would you pay in a monthly subscription. Since I dont think that many people did the survey, lets do our own.
I play EVE Online as main MMO.
Currently I have found a way to fund my accounts there with buying 30-day time codes with my ingame money; if not I would rather pay a montly sub model then playing a F2P model for that game.
F2P usually means restrictions+other disadvantages to paying subscribers and constant harassment -ingame and outgame- by the developers to pour money into their product thrugh their cashshops. And I think people who pay cashshops spend more money/month then with a traditional montly sub.
Luckily GW and GW2 are the exception for me, but every other F2P I have played in the past I have been terribly annoyed by cashshops popups every time to the point I say "fk it" and initiate the uninstall.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Comments
I dont mind p2p as long as it follows EVE's model. In EVE i get a passive bonus (skill points) no matter if I play a lot or (nearly) not at all. Thus I never feel like I wasted the monthly sub even if RL got a lot int the way.
Unfortunately in most p2p games today, your investment is just lost completely if you dont actively play during the period. (And no, a few unremarkable loyalty items dont really cut it as a passive bonus.)
No problem happens to me all the time. It wasn't very consistent with your normal posts, so glad it was just a misunderstanding.
Keep in mind, you're not only paying monthly game subs, but also, internet connection, have to up-date your comp to meet at least minimum requirement, and a box price.
That is over $100.00 a month even with $10.00 monthly sub, just to play an online game.
Actually, we do know, however that stuff is all based on spending patterns, professional surveys, industry reports, and various other sources that seem to carry far less weight around here than anecdotal ramblings.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Man, I didn't know f2p games came with free internet and computer upgrades! This argument seems very flawed.
You would need to update your computer and pay internet anyway, so you are paying box price and a sub, which the sub is a given, since that is the topic.
I do more than game with my internet connection/computer, like post on these forums, can we say posting here is costing me $100 a month and it isn't fair?!
IF the game is good then I have 0 issues subbing to it,,
If you needed to upgrade your graphics card to post on these forums, I'd say you should be ecstatic you got that much mileage from whatever 3Dfx or trident card you were using.
I'm kidding, of course. You made a great point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I would definetly sub to a solid game thats a no brainer, the problem is there hasn't been a solid game for years now.
Closest thing ive found to a decent game has been Darkfall and that is no where near perfect but still worth my sub fee because it different and more immersive and no instancing than all the games out there.
What I've found so far with F2P is that they've sucked the enjoyment right out of progression in the MMORPG genre. Don't have time to play, no problem there is a cash shop item that fixes it right up and it's only a problem in the first place because the Devs have built those obstacles in deliberately. It's like working for a tire service company where you go around throwing tacks and nails all over the roads to get more business.
In F2P games you have items that let you level faster, sell you more bag space, craft faster, paid instant teleporting, even sell you in game currency and the list goes on and on. The other trend I see lately is where you just click on the quest text or on the map and the game runs your character there, makes me wonder why the developers even bother making maps and not just put everything required in a 10' x 10' room because having to move your own character around just sucks doesn't it. Soon there will be a cash shop item that plays the game for you, just for convenience of course.
What ever happened to the satisfaction you get when you finally receive a reward for the efforts you put into a game, you know the enjoyment of having to work for something and not just throw your credit card at it.
Maybe I'm Robinson Crusoe on this, but I just find that most games that I've played in the last few years to be empty shells compared to what I was used to playing in years gone by. I can only imagine what many of the current crop of gamers would think if they were presented with a half inch thick manual that you had to read if you wanted to be proficient in a game.
I didn't say free to play games have free internet, I have not written any word about f2p games, you are confused mister.
I said $10 per month for entertainment is good enough price, plus the box price.
To compete with latest game graphics you need a lot more then $600 a year, plus, instead of $15 for internet you need at least $50 per month, electric bill higher, which is, because of watt consumption.
Yes, yes, I do a lot more on the internet too, but gaming consumes a lot more then regular internet.
I think you meant gamut rather than gambit.
Yes, in some cases it's an effort to save the game, in others it's the "business model". Though I would like to make my obligatory point that "free" doesn't make for good business so they aren't really free.
How much would people pay per month, that's an easy one, look at WoW, Perpetuum, Darkfall, Vendetta and EVE subs.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Gotta love the Grammar Nazi. You got the point of my post.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
I would and have had and will in the future. The problem now is that after being fooled once, twice, three and even four times. I have decided to wait on games. It's not worth purchasing a box price in the current state of gaming.
As i've been saying and be learning, f2p+open beta is just a no no anymore. I own a business, despite my rants and raves and drunken posts I have a solid business understanding.
A lot of the CEO's of these companies do their research. They KNOW that the game they are publishing will NOT keep people. So what to do? You basically take the early game conveniences ie bag space, vault space, hot bars, gamble boxes etc. (you get the picture) and you charge for this all the while making the game "free".
What this does is provide , usually a box price and trying to get the average consumer to spend 60-100$. Believe it or not most of these f2p games cover that. If you take companies like nexon, pwi and the major f2p publishers and look at their games. You will see that most of them the rate of retention at the max level is 1/10 of the amount of players at early levels.
There are those that stay doing the grinds, raids whatever these free to play titles offer. Generally the market appeals to those under 18. THey can play games for free, while getting gift cards on holidays / birthdays etc.
So, between grabbing as much cash as possible in the early game, and from the people that just cant afford it minus giftcards etc. it's a more profitable business model.
THe problem that you see arising is that games coming out free to play aren't just including unethical cash grabs in my opinion, they are putting out games that are completely UNFINISHED and a lot in the alpha stage of development. An insider that's a friend of an investor friend of mine told me that it's a "let's just get it playable and deal with it later" attitude.
There are no real consequences for publishers or developers because there is very little law or regulation in the online gaming market. Since the game is always evolving , "finished" is a matter of opinion and an even more grey area in terms of legality.
I grew up on very old principles and i am more and more turning to console games because most , even though this is changing, are ready to play with limited bugs. PC gaming is turning into a sesspool of disasters. It's unfortunate to see developers and game publishers take the low road of screwing over the people that pay their bills. This is going to ultimately catch up sooner or later. Either a monstrous lawsuit or a total disinterest in the genre.
I am rambling now and bored but tldr; i'd pay for anything decent and any company that believes in their product would put out something worth paying for instead of all this unfinished garbage and crap.
I play EVE Online as main MMO.
Currently I have found a way to fund my accounts there with buying 30-day time codes with my ingame money; if not I would rather pay a montly sub model then playing a F2P model for that game.
F2P usually means restrictions+other disadvantages to paying subscribers and constant harassment -ingame and outgame- by the developers to pour money into their product thrugh their cashshops. And I think people who pay cashshops spend more money/month then with a traditional montly sub.
Luckily GW and GW2 are the exception for me, but every other F2P I have played in the past I have been terribly annoyed by cashshops popups every time to the point I say "fk it" and initiate the uninstall.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"