Solo play absolutely needs to be viable for every class, unlike EQ1 where only a handful of classes could solo past the early levels. People today aren't going to put up with logging in and not doing anything for an hour while they look for a group. Group play without a doubt needs to always be the preferred method of play (unlike most MMOs today where grouping while leveling usually makes things go slower), but solo play needs to be a viable alternative.
The problem with no soloing: The first month of the game, this works fine, there are plenty of people your level, you meet up with people, you accomplish great things and have great fun. A few months later, you decide to create a new class, but none of your friends want to start over. You have to find new people to group with. The dungeons are ghost lands. The areas are empty or don't have enough people/ the right classes to create a group capable of handling the content. You get bored and quit.
There is also the scenario where you play the game with a group of friends and something comes up and your tank friend quits the game or becomes too busy in real live to play often. You end up playing less and less until finally you just quit.
If the game requires you to have a full group of 5 or 6 people to complete the content, then you will have 15 people in the area and a single group doing content. The other 10 people are shouting looking for a tank or healer and can't find one. After looking for 30 minutes, people start to log off. An hour later, a tank comes online looking for group, but now there are no healers.
Dunno if anyone has said this, but ther's a thing called level synch. In ffxi they added where your entire group would level down to a selected party member. Say you got a lvl 45 - 53 - 26 - 16 - 32, you can synch everyone down to the lvl 16, and get max xp for everyone, even the gear scaled down.
In vanguard ther's a thing called mentor, it level's down a person to match your level.
So ye group forced isn't all that bad, if they make it were you can synch down to your friends level and still gain really good xp.
But there was a flaw to that system though. In ffxi xp parties became nothing but qufim island parties, cause it was ez to get to and pretty fast xp. But going to the same area all the time really got old imo. I got so burned out on qufim island partyies. If only there was a way to balance it, and make it were you can't go to the same area, over and over again to level.
The problem with no soloing: The first month of the game, this works fine, there are plenty of people your level, you meet up with people, you accomplish great things and have great fun. A few months later, you decide to create a new class, but none of your friends want to start over. You have to find new people to group with. The dungeons are ghost lands. The areas are empty or don't have enough people/ the right classes to create a group capable of handling the content. You get bored and quit.
There is also the scenario where you play the game with a group of friends and something comes up and your tank friend quits the game or becomes too busy in real live to play often. You end up playing less and less until finally you just quit.
If the game requires you to have a full group of 5 or 6 people to complete the content, then you will have 15 people in the area and a single group doing content. The other 10 people are shouting looking for a tank or healer and can't find one. After looking for 30 minutes, people start to log off. An hour later, a tank comes online looking for group, but now there are no healers.
Dunno if anyone has said this, but ther's a thing called level synch. In ffxi they added where your entire group would level down to a selected party member. Say you got a lvl 45 - 53 - 26 - 16 - 32, you can synch everyone down to the lvl 16, and get max xp for everyone, even the gear scaled down.
In vanguard ther's a thing called mentor, it level's down a person to match your level.
So ye group forced isn't all that bad, if they make it were you can synch down to your friends level and still gain really good xp.
But there was a flaw to that system though. In ffxi xp parties became nothing but qufim island parties, cause it was ez to get to and pretty fast xp. But going to the same area all the time really got old imo. I got so burned out on qufim island partyies. If only there was a way to balance it, and make it were you can't go to the same area, over and over again to level.
There are a good number of mentor systems out there but they rely on two things
The lower level player being part of a group
The higher level players willing to accept the downsides of redoing lower level content or having a less effective character with them in their current content
There are several ways to alleviate this. Devs often try to solve this with zone or global chat, but while that opens the lines for communication, there is no tie of any kind between the players. Starting players out in an NPC guild (EVE) or quickly advancing them into an NPC guild of their choosing (AoW) are two ways that devs have helped create the ties that bring players into group gameplay when they are in a less than optimal grouping scenario.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Mentoring and similar systems do not work well. If I am level 40 and I can not find a group for a dungeon I want to complete, I will not ask chat for a group doing a level 20 dungeon. I have completed that dungeon, my gear is better than anything I could get there, and I feel like I have moved on from that. Even if it is with a friend, I would rather create a new character that keeps the level pace with my friend and play that character with them.
I go through content for two major reasons, exploration and gear. I may do something over and over again to get the gear, but once I have it, I am gone to the next thing to explore the world and never to come back on that character. I don't want to come back to it 20 levels later because I can't find a group my level.
I personally think solo play NEEDS to be not just viable, but fun to play for each class. Solo mechanics can be different than in groups, but really that only comes to play when the "trinity" is in full affect. GW2 (flavor of the last few months for me), kinda did away with the trinity...it works at times (but not all the time).
Group play should also be viable, fun to play and EASY TO FIND! One of the things that steered alot of people away from group play...when your friends are busy or not on, trying to find a PUG used to be a real pain the butt. Spending hours spamming chat looking for a group and if you were anything other than a tanky class or healer....GL with that. If they want more people to group, it needs to be easier to find one.
I would also like to see some content for smaller groups as well (2-3). There are games that have done this in the past and still do. Sometimes its just the family and I (Wife and son), a real dungeon isn't doable but it would be kinda cool to have something the 3 of us could do other than running the quest treadmill.
Create "open world dungeons" in the game like the days of old - which are pretty much just a big section of map full of "elite" group-only mobs.
No need for quests, or story, or dynamic this or that.
Just good old fashion mobs and respawns.
Give bonus XP for grouping, give unique sets and chance for rare drops to these mobs.
Throw in some named NPC's and other such rares.
Maybe even throw in some mini-boss or "boss" type mobs to camp/farm.
Doesn't hurt the questing / solo experience one bit.
Dev time isn't very high as you don't have to spend tons of time on story, mobs can be the same from other regions or dungeons, just tweaked for group combat.
Give players the choice.
Solo quests, group dungeons, or open world group mob farming.
Choice is good.
TERA did something like this with BAMs didn't they? People seemed to enjoy that.
Create "open world dungeons" in the game like the days of old - which are pretty much just a big section of map full of "elite" group-only mobs.
No need for quests, or story, or dynamic this or that.
Just good old fashion mobs and respawns.
Give bonus XP for grouping, give unique sets and chance for rare drops to these mobs.
Throw in some named NPC's and other such rares.
Maybe even throw in some mini-boss or "boss" type mobs to camp/farm.
Doesn't hurt the questing / solo experience one bit.
Dev time isn't very high as you don't have to spend tons of time on story, mobs can be the same from other regions or dungeons, just tweaked for group combat.
Give players the choice.
Solo quests, group dungeons, or open world group mob farming.
Choice is good.
TERA did something like this with BAMs didn't they? People seemed to enjoy that.
+1
Open world is a must. Contested content is a must.
Open world is a must. Contested content is a must.
Yes, I do not like instanced dungeons or combat. However, i think it would be great if some of the encounters are scripted. For instance:
You fight your way into a dungeon. You see a gnome in a cage. You talk to him and he tells you that if you help him escape, he will reward you handsomely. You open the cage and immediately guards come out to stop the escape. A fight occurs in which you must defeat waves of mobs and fight your way to the exit. Once you do this however, the event is over and if you go back in the dungeon, it is just a normal dungeon again. You go back to the cage, and the gnome has respawned, but you are unable to start the event again for a full day, or hour, or whatever the devs want. This makes sure that the event is always possible (no one camping the mobs/event the entire time and not allowing others to play the content), and it also stop the problem of an instanced dungeon. You don't have to do the event, there are plenty of mobs there that give good xp and loot, you can even choose to help someone else doing the event, but you and anyone that completed it can not receive a reward from it if you have done it in the last day or hour or whatever.
Open world is a must. Contested content is a must.
Yes, I do not like instanced dungeons or combat. However, i think it would be great if some of the encounters are scripted. For instance:
You fight your way into a dungeon. You see a gnome in a cage. You talk to him and he tells you that if you help him escape, he will reward you handsomely. You open the cage and immediately guards come out to stop the escape. A fight occurs in which you must defeat waves of mobs and fight your way to the exit. Once you do this however, the event is over and if you go back in the dungeon, it is just a normal dungeon again. You go back to the cage, and the gnome has respawned, but you are unable to start the event again for a full day, or hour, or whatever the devs want. This makes sure that the event is always possible (no one camping the mobs/event the entire time and not allowing others to play the content), and it also stop the problem of an instanced dungeon. You don't have to do the event, there are plenty of mobs there that give good xp and loot, you can even choose to help someone else doing the event, but you and anyone that completed it can not receive a reward from it if you have done it in the last day or hour or whatever.
Think everyone would like stuff like that, but you don't have to create an instance to have scripted events.
Mentoring and similar systems do not work well. If I am level 40 and I can not find a group for a dungeon I want to complete, I will not ask chat for a group doing a level 20 dungeon. I have completed that dungeon, my gear is better than anything I could get there, and I feel like I have moved on from that. Even if it is with a friend, I would rather create a new character that keeps the level pace with my friend and play that character with them.
I go through content for two major reasons, exploration and gear. I may do something over and over again to get the gear, but once I have it, I am gone to the next thing to explore the world and never to come back on that character. I don't want to come back to it 20 levels later because I can't find a group my level.
So what you are saying is mentoring systems do not work well for you in gear-dependent MMOs. It seems like the problem there is the design of the content. Since exploration and gear are your interests, it sound like it would make it worth your while if those dungeons offered some kind of reward for your character's actual level or if those dungeons were less static (ex: Dungeon Runners, Vindictus)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Open world is a must. Contested content is a must.
Yes, I do not like instanced dungeons or combat. However, i think it would be great if some of the encounters are scripted. For instance:
You fight your way into a dungeon. You see a gnome in a cage. You talk to him and he tells you that if you help him escape, he will reward you handsomely. You open the cage and immediately guards come out to stop the escape. A fight occurs in which you must defeat waves of mobs and fight your way to the exit. Once you do this however, the event is over and if you go back in the dungeon, it is just a normal dungeon again. You go back to the cage, and the gnome has respawned, but you are unable to start the event again for a full day, or hour, or whatever the devs want. This makes sure that the event is always possible (no one camping the mobs/event the entire time and not allowing others to play the content), and it also stop the problem of an instanced dungeon. You don't have to do the event, there are plenty of mobs there that give good xp and loot, you can even choose to help someone else doing the event, but you and anyone that completed it can not receive a reward from it if you have done it in the last day or hour or whatever.
Think everyone would like stuff like that, but you don't have to create an instance to have scripted events.
Exactly. I am not sure why people say the advantage of instancing is that you can do scripted events. You can do that without instancing as well. It might be slightly more difficult, but it allows greater immerision. The only advantage that instancing has is that content is never contested. However, if someone has to leave group mid instance, you have to find someone willing to do only 2 out of 4 bosses. In non-instanced dungeons, you can do the 2nd two bosses, and go back for the frist two when they respawn, and then do the 2nd two again.
Mentoring and similar systems do not work well. If I am level 40 and I can not find a group for a dungeon I want to complete, I will not ask chat for a group doing a level 20 dungeon. I have completed that dungeon, my gear is better than anything I could get there, and I feel like I have moved on from that. Even if it is with a friend, I would rather create a new character that keeps the level pace with my friend and play that character with them.
I go through content for two major reasons, exploration and gear. I may do something over and over again to get the gear, but once I have it, I am gone to the next thing to explore the world and never to come back on that character. I don't want to come back to it 20 levels later because I can't find a group my level.
So what you are saying is mentoring systems do not work well for you in gear-dependent MMOs. It seems like the problem there is the design of the content. Since exploration and gear are your interests, it sound like it would make it worth your while if those dungeons offered some kind of reward for your character's actual level or if those dungeons were less static (ex: Dungeon Runners, Vindictus)
If you get gear for doing any content no matter what level it is or how hard it is, it gives you no anticipation. There is nothing to look forward to. If I get the same reward for doing a dungeon I know is easy and have done before as I do a dungeon I have never done, is new to me, and harder, why would I do the harder one.
Vanguard has a problem like this as well. It has the United Threstran quests, as well as the bounty hunter quests that are purely soloable that give yellow gear (system goes green, blue, yellow, and then some more colors) The quests are easy, they dont take long to do, but they give better gear than most dungeons that are hard and take a full group. Why do dungeons then if you can get a full set of gear by doing the UT quests?
Mentoring and similar systems do not work well. If I am level 40 and I can not find a group for a dungeon I want to complete, I will not ask chat for a group doing a level 20 dungeon. I have completed that dungeon, my gear is better than anything I could get there, and I feel like I have moved on from that. Even if it is with a friend, I would rather create a new character that keeps the level pace with my friend and play that character with them.
I go through content for two major reasons, exploration and gear. I may do something over and over again to get the gear, but once I have it, I am gone to the next thing to explore the world and never to come back on that character. I don't want to come back to it 20 levels later because I can't find a group my level.
So what you are saying is mentoring systems do not work well for you in gear-dependent MMOs. It seems like the problem there is the design of the content. Since exploration and gear are your interests, it sound like it would make it worth your while if those dungeons offered some kind of reward for your character's actual level or if those dungeons were less static (ex: Dungeon Runners, Vindictus)
If you get gear for doing any content no matter what level it is or how hard it is, it gives you no anticipation. There is nothing to look forward to. If I get the same reward for doing a dungeon I know is easy and have done before as I do a dungeon I have never done, is new to me, and harder, why would I do the harder one.
Vanguard has a problem like this as well. It has the United Threstran quests, as well as the bounty hunter quests that are purely soloable that give yellow gear (system goes green, blue, yellow, and then some more colors) The quests are easy, they dont take long to do, but they give better gear than most dungeons that are hard and take a full group. Why do dungeons then if you can get a full set of gear by doing the UT quests?
You're further exemplifying that it is a problem in gear chasing mechanics and not a flaw in the mentoring system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you get gear for doing any content no matter what level it is or how hard it is, it gives you no anticipation. There is nothing to look forward to. If I get the same reward for doing a dungeon I know is easy and have done before as I do a dungeon I have never done, is new to me, and harder, why would I do the harder one.
Vanguard has a problem like this as well. It has the United Threstran quests, as well as the bounty hunter quests that are purely soloable that give yellow gear (system goes green, blue, yellow, and then some more colors) The quests are easy, they dont take long to do, but they give better gear than most dungeons that are hard and take a full group. Why do dungeons then if you can get a full set of gear by doing the UT quests?
You're further exemplifying that it is a problem in gear chasing mechanics and not a flaw in the mentoring system.
Well, people generally play the game to explore, gain levels, and get better gear. The mentoring stops 2 of the 3 reasons in its tracks. You are not exploring when mentoring, you are doing content you have already done. You are also not getting better gear. All you are getting is xp and maybe a bit of gold.
One of the ways to fix the need for mentoring is to:
1. slow down level progess. Why do you need to gain a level every 2 hours? If it takes 8 hours to gain a level mid game then you are near your friends levels for much longer. If your friend goes on vacation it doesn't mean he can no longer play with you because he is 10 levels behind.
2. Decrease how drastic levels are in fighting. There is no reason why when you kill something 4 levels beneath you, you get little to no reward. There is also no reason why something 4 levels above you is impossible to kill. A full group of 5 or 6 should be able to kill mobs 5 levels above them. However, this would be more risky and take longer. This way, someone level 14 and someone level 19 can still play together and enjoy new content.
If you get gear for doing any content no matter what level it is or how hard it is, it gives you no anticipation. There is nothing to look forward to. If I get the same reward for doing a dungeon I know is easy and have done before as I do a dungeon I have never done, is new to me, and harder, why would I do the harder one.
Vanguard has a problem like this as well. It has the United Threstran quests, as well as the bounty hunter quests that are purely soloable that give yellow gear (system goes green, blue, yellow, and then some more colors) The quests are easy, they dont take long to do, but they give better gear than most dungeons that are hard and take a full group. Why do dungeons then if you can get a full set of gear by doing the UT quests?
You're further exemplifying that it is a problem in gear chasing mechanics and not a flaw in the mentoring system.
Well, people generally play the game to explore, gain levels, and get better gear. The mentoring stops 2 of the 3 reasons in its tracks. You are not exploring when mentoring, you are doing content you have already done. You are also not getting better gear. All you are getting is xp and maybe a bit of gold.
One of the ways to fix the need for mentoring is to:
1. slow down level progess. Why do you need to gain a level every 2 hours? If it takes 8 hours to gain a level mid game then you are near your friends levels for much longer. If your friend goes on vacation it doesn't mean he can no longer play with you because he is 10 levels behind.
2. Decrease how drastic levels are in fighting. There is no reason why when you kill something 4 levels beneath you, you get little to no reward. There is also no reason why something 4 levels above you is impossible to kill. A full group of 5 or 6 should be able to kill mobs 5 levels above them. However, this would be more risky and take longer. This way, someone level 14 and someone level 19 can still play together and enjoy new content.
I really like the idea of Slowing level progression. If you do that though when you do get a level, it needs to really mean something and be exciting. Nothing would be worse than slowing down level progression, get next level and get...well nothing for leveling up. I remember back in the day getting half a level in some games would get you a new spell/skill or something. As of now, the fast leveling does little than get you to end game faster...there isn't that same sense of wow look what I got for leveling up like their used to be.
I would even be down for using a method that UO originated back in the day. As you use a weapon your skill goes up, as you use a magic school, your skill goes up (to a max number per the level you are)
I hope EQNext allows you to actually gain experience and level up the gear you are using.
I always thought that'd be a great mechanic.
You can use epic quests or drops or high level crafting to jump up a couple of levels, but you gear levels up on it's own so any dedicated player doing any activity can eventually earn "best in slots" - but the skilled players defeating the most challenging content and/or most dedicated/skilled crafters get to leap frog up first/faster.
I think FFXIV is doing something like that with their Materia system.
Your gear levels up, but in order to get the "best" gear, you take max level gear and turn it into Materia, which then goes into Materia slots in other max level gear.
And you have to be a max level crafter in a specific profession to slot the Materia into gear.
Gives a good reason for gear destruction/replacement without player looting, and involves crafting.
And allows non-hardcore players to still improve their gear through use - just slower.
IMO would be a perfect type system for EQNext too.
I've also thought that a crafting system in which later Tier item creation requires materials and pieces from earlier Tiers would be a great move.
Like, Tier 2 gear would require a piece of Tier 1 gear + some Tier 2 mats. Tier 3 requires Tier 1 and 2 pieces and Tier 3 mats. etc.
But here is the kicker - add in quality and allow players to specialize in different tiers / materials.
So an "end game" crafter could only make Tier 1 pieces and materials, but only a Tier 1 specialist could do it. So the Tier 3 specialist who makes the most top-end gear available has to work with a Tier 1 specialist and a Tier 2 specialist.
If you get gear for doing any content no matter what level it is or how hard it is, it gives you no anticipation. There is nothing to look forward to. If I get the same reward for doing a dungeon I know is easy and have done before as I do a dungeon I have never done, is new to me, and harder, why would I do the harder one.
Vanguard has a problem like this as well. It has the United Threstran quests, as well as the bounty hunter quests that are purely soloable that give yellow gear (system goes green, blue, yellow, and then some more colors) The quests are easy, they dont take long to do, but they give better gear than most dungeons that are hard and take a full group. Why do dungeons then if you can get a full set of gear by doing the UT quests?
You're further exemplifying that it is a problem in gear chasing mechanics and not a flaw in the mentoring system.
Well, people generally play the game to explore, gain levels, and get better gear. The mentoring stops 2 of the 3 reasons in its tracks. You are not exploring when mentoring, you are doing content you have already done. You are also not getting better gear. All you are getting is xp and maybe a bit of gold.
If we are talking solely about WOW, LOTRO, EQ2 and their many variants, then, yes. It seems more and more that the gear issue is really, once again, just another example of how the Diku/PnP style level systems just don't translate well to MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think the only good solo content was in EQ because they didn't design for solo play, but built it in a way that players had tools to solo, and mobs that weren't tied so you could.
The broken part of new games is linked mobs. If they had mobs you could pull solo or gang tackle in a group then both types of players would be happy. If they made NPC's right then solo players could find the spots that allowed them to level.
I hope EQNext allows you to actually gain experience and level up the gear you are using.
I always thought that'd be a great mechanic.
You can use epic quests or drops or high level crafting to jump up a couple of levels, but you gear levels up on it's own so any dedicated player doing any activity can eventually earn "best in slots" - but the skilled players defeating the most challenging content and/or most dedicated/skilled crafters get to leap frog up first/faster.
I think FFXIV is doing something like that with their Materia system.
Your gear levels up, but in order to get the "best" gear, you take max level gear and turn it into Materia, which then goes into Materia slots in other max level gear.
And you have to be a max level crafter in a specific profession to slot the Materia into gear.
Gives a good reason for gear destruction/replacement without player looting, and involves crafting.
And allows non-hardcore players to still improve their gear through use - just slower.
IMO would be a perfect type system for EQNext too.
I've also thought that a crafting system in which later Tier item creation requires materials and pieces from earlier Tiers would be a great move.
Like, Tier 2 gear would require a piece of Tier 1 gear + some Tier 2 mats. Tier 3 requires Tier 1 and 2 pieces and Tier 3 mats. etc.
But here is the kicker - add in quality and allow players to specialize in different tiers / materials.
So an "end game" crafter could only make Tier 1 pieces and materials, but only a Tier 1 specialist could do it. So the Tier 3 specialist who makes the most top-end gear available has to work with a Tier 1 specialist and a Tier 2 specialist.
Anyway... just rambling.
I like the way you ramble. Had something similar in mind myself. I've always disliked the need to have multiple items of the same kind for different situations or everyone having to have the same "best" gear. Would love to have a base set of items that you are able to modify (look, stats, effects, etc) as you adventure.
Limit the number of options so you can't have a pair of boots that makes you fly, run fast, invis, etc but still allow freedom to alter as we see fit. Also could have drawbacks to certain abilities like increased speed comes with decreased accuracy so we have to decide what is best for us instead of everyone having a pair of running boots in their bag.
Also would like to get away from the named gear that gets old real fast when you see clones running around with the same look/stats. Let us modify everything to our specific needs and goals.
Mr. Dragon shouldn't drop X weapons Y chest piece and a back pack (Dragons have backpacks? Blizzard...). Instead mobs should be taken for what they have, skin, blood, essence, fangs, etc that can be crafted into gear to make it better but best of all unique. Instead of 5 must have items to make an helm, we can choose from 100 different items that fit our needs.
Overall just want to get away from the carrot on the stick + forced down a track. Don't mind trying to reach some unobtainable "best" but I want it to be my best not what the devs or other players have decided is.
Simply said if Soloing provides as much benefit as Grouping then there wont be much emphasis on Grouping. Soloing Dungeons and areas with many dynamic MOBs should not exist in EQN as it doesn't even seem feasible in any way remotely resembling a truly immersive persistent world.
I can see Soloing as it was done in early Everquest by slowly, carefully, and strategically choosing your prey and attacking it in a good location open location without alot of wandering MOBs. Anything more then that shouldn't be feasible or sensible as the player wants to really feel immersed in the game they should be constantly aware of danger either from above, below, or nearby by MOBs moving to and fro throughout the given area. Kiting should exist in this game whatsoeva!
Wasn't it nice being stealth attacked by Griffon's in the Commonlands back in the day? Or smashed by a Hill Giant? Sand Giants in South and North Ro?
Players shouldn't feel comfortable Soloing in a MMORPG. They should feel more at ease in a Group since you have players who are there to work together and as they say more eyes are better then one.
If I designed a game even Groups would have to be on guard and TRAINs would be back in the game. It only makes sense that MOBs are going to attack targets of opportunity and if a player is weak or in trouble they should take the opportunity to put them out of the misery and even the score. I am all for making players work for their rewards.
Even a Raid Boss should lay waste to even the best of Raids before being taken down by a strategy handed down and repeated again and again to the point they are on a consistent camp timer allowed by the game mechanics. It should be a worthwhile and hearty fight with great reward to take down a Raid Boss as most MMORPGs have trivialized Raid Content to the point where it is laughable and no where near where it should be. I mean we are talking about killing Dragons, Gods, Demons, Giants, etc...Colossal Mobs should produce massive damage to more then just the freakin tank often ultra buffed and mega healed and insanely protected.
The first real raid upon Nagafen in Everquest resulted in a massive fear in which caused an entire wipe of the raid and I laughed out loud when I heard about it and viewed the screenshots. It wasn't long afterwards that it turned into a campfest as well as countless other Raid Mobs. So sorry to go on a tangent about Raiding but since when is a Raid boss going to focus damage on one particular target.
Back to Grouping or Soloing; If you want to be Fredrick the Rat Killer go solo a bunch of rats and get the title. Though if you want to Solo something well beyond your level or in any area that simply should be too risky for even the foolhearty you should be running back to your corpse like any other village idiot who ventured out to far cuz someone knocked over his ale and took his wench one fateful evening :P
I think there should be equal rewards for time invested in the game, whether grouping or soloing.
I find a lot of hypocrisy in people who claim to love to group but who want the group rewards to be much better than soloing rewards. If you love grouping so much, then THAT is your reward...you get to play in the game mode you like best. You shouldn't get better drops. If you need better drops as an incentive to group, then you didn't really like grouping that much, did you?
In summary: Both grouping and soloing should give equivalent rewards for the amount of time invested in the game. Anything else amounts to the game saying "well, you can do that other thing, but I will punish you for it..."
REally at some point a MMO is going to have to put a stop to all this soloing and make the community a viable experience again.....ALmsot every single MMO released since WoW is geared for the soloer and has gone away from developing the community......Really EQN and maybe FFXIV are the last hope for grouping to save the genre before it heads to single player with others around forever.
I think there should be equal rewards for time invested in the game, whether grouping or soloing.
I find a lot of hypocrisy in people who claim to love to group but who want the group rewards to be much better than soloing rewards. If you love grouping so much, then THAT is your reward...you get to play in the game mode you like best. You shouldn't get better drops. If you need better drops as an incentive to group, then you didn't really like grouping that much, did you?
In summary: Both grouping and soloing should give equivalent rewards for the amount of time invested in the game. Anything else amounts to the game saying "well, you can do that other thing, but I will punish you for it..."
So what's the incentive to go through the hassle of putting a group together if the reward isn't better? People are going to take the path of least resistance so if the rewards are the same for soloing and grouping there aren't going to be many that will put in the time to get a group together. In order to create a community, there has to be the need to put one together.
You say there should be equal rewards for time invested. I disagree. People should be rewarded for their time invested and EFFORT put forth. It takes more effort to put together a group than it does to solo. Getting 6 people together takes much more effort in a non automatching group finder than it does to solo. Getting a raid together of 40-72 people takes much more effort than a group does. The rewards should scale accordingly.
If people don't like that, there's nearly 10 years worth of MMOs that you can solo to max and get top gear in no time at all. People who've played EQ when it was at it's peak have been screaming for something different than what's been considered the norm for years now. Not every game HAS to do this and this and this whole checklist of bullshit that's been considered standard features now. They've said they're using EQ1 as it's core or template if you will, I hope they stick true to that. There's plenty of other games, out now and coming up, that do what has been done. We want something different.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
Here here yes indeedy, if soloing is your thing then play classes suited for ambushing, overwhelming your surprised victim and then vanishing as a an Assassin. Sneak around Dungeons all you desire as a Rogue. Play a Ranger type tracking, felling a foe with your arrow whilst being camoflauged in the woods.
Though insisting on the same rewards (class/race specific and epic quest soloing scenerios being an exception here) Soloing vs Grouping, that is utter nonsense, and why even play a MMORPG? Go play a Single Player RPG or the numerous trivialized MMORPGs you can easily solo to max level and even aquire hearty lewtz.
A real sense of community needs to return to MMORPGs and grouping is a must if you really want to return to the good ol days where you had to group to overcome, prevail and gather riches and good items otherwise you experienced many a corpse run and rightly so...
I remember grouping in early Everquest and no one new hardly anything about crowd control and aggro management (please go beyond these borrowed, handed down time and again ad nauseum strategies which make a joke out of MOB AI) and being that I was the puller...guess who died alot simply because MMORPGs were new and this was the first 3D MMORPG and everyone was basically on the same learning curve. Players learned early on who was worthwhile to party with and who needed more learning experience as dying cost a player alot of gametime as it should imho.
Also remember my first dungeon experience being invited into Befallen as a level 7 Monk and being in a group with someone who beta tested Everquest and was playing female dwarven cleric named Rose who obviously wasn't female irl cuz all they were doing was bitching/complaining at everyone and taking their time healing players just right before they died...all I wanted to do was run out of the place yet stuck it out and we obtained some good items for everyone involved in it (This was back when the Ogre Shadowknight constantly summoned skeletons and that is as far as we made it).
Solo vs Group play goes hand in hand with the Casual Player vs Hardcore Gamer arguement I have seen on many a MMORPG forum. We are far removed from the early days of Everquest as alot of folks have some experience in MMORPGs and there are so many to choose from. Community is where its at in the long run and its been many years since I have truly experienced it in an MMORPG.
I think there should be equal rewards for time invested in the game, whether grouping or soloing.
I find a lot of hypocrisy in people who claim to love to group but who want the group rewards to be much better than soloing rewards. If you love grouping so much, then THAT is your reward...you get to play in the game mode you like best. You shouldn't get better drops. If you need better drops as an incentive to group, then you didn't really like grouping that much, did you?
In summary: Both grouping and soloing should give equivalent rewards for the amount of time invested in the game. Anything else amounts to the game saying "well, you can do that other thing, but I will punish you for it..."
Theres plenty of games out there already just for you. In fact, any MMO from the last decade to be specific, as well as a vast array of single player games like the elder scrolls series.
The rest of us are waiting for something different - a group oriented game - which is why we hope EQN will be the true spiritual successor of Everquest in that respect. The endless cries for solo MMOGs (massive MULTIPLAYER online games) is a plague upon the genre, and they've led to the trivialization of every new game.
We're waiting for something different and people need to learn to respect that.
Comments
Dunno if anyone has said this, but ther's a thing called level synch. In ffxi they added where your entire group would level down to a selected party member. Say you got a lvl 45 - 53 - 26 - 16 - 32, you can synch everyone down to the lvl 16, and get max xp for everyone, even the gear scaled down.
In vanguard ther's a thing called mentor, it level's down a person to match your level.
So ye group forced isn't all that bad, if they make it were you can synch down to your friends level and still gain really good xp.
But there was a flaw to that system though. In ffxi xp parties became nothing but qufim island parties, cause it was ez to get to and pretty fast xp. But going to the same area all the time really got old imo. I got so burned out on qufim island partyies. If only there was a way to balance it, and make it were you can't go to the same area, over and over again to level.
There are a good number of mentor systems out there but they rely on two things
There are several ways to alleviate this. Devs often try to solve this with zone or global chat, but while that opens the lines for communication, there is no tie of any kind between the players. Starting players out in an NPC guild (EVE) or quickly advancing them into an NPC guild of their choosing (AoW) are two ways that devs have helped create the ties that bring players into group gameplay when they are in a less than optimal grouping scenario.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Mentoring and similar systems do not work well. If I am level 40 and I can not find a group for a dungeon I want to complete, I will not ask chat for a group doing a level 20 dungeon. I have completed that dungeon, my gear is better than anything I could get there, and I feel like I have moved on from that. Even if it is with a friend, I would rather create a new character that keeps the level pace with my friend and play that character with them.
I go through content for two major reasons, exploration and gear. I may do something over and over again to get the gear, but once I have it, I am gone to the next thing to explore the world and never to come back on that character. I don't want to come back to it 20 levels later because I can't find a group my level.
I personally think solo play NEEDS to be not just viable, but fun to play for each class. Solo mechanics can be different than in groups, but really that only comes to play when the "trinity" is in full affect. GW2 (flavor of the last few months for me), kinda did away with the trinity...it works at times (but not all the time).
Group play should also be viable, fun to play and EASY TO FIND! One of the things that steered alot of people away from group play...when your friends are busy or not on, trying to find a PUG used to be a real pain the butt. Spending hours spamming chat looking for a group and if you were anything other than a tanky class or healer....GL with that. If they want more people to group, it needs to be easier to find one.
I would also like to see some content for smaller groups as well (2-3). There are games that have done this in the past and still do. Sometimes its just the family and I (Wife and son), a real dungeon isn't doable but it would be kinda cool to have something the 3 of us could do other than running the quest treadmill.
What I always thought would work -
Create "open world dungeons" in the game like the days of old - which are pretty much just a big section of map full of "elite" group-only mobs.
No need for quests, or story, or dynamic this or that.
Just good old fashion mobs and respawns.
Give bonus XP for grouping, give unique sets and chance for rare drops to these mobs.
Throw in some named NPC's and other such rares.
Maybe even throw in some mini-boss or "boss" type mobs to camp/farm.
Doesn't hurt the questing / solo experience one bit.
Dev time isn't very high as you don't have to spend tons of time on story, mobs can be the same from other regions or dungeons, just tweaked for group combat.
Give players the choice.
Solo quests, group dungeons, or open world group mob farming.
Choice is good.
TERA did something like this with BAMs didn't they? People seemed to enjoy that.
+1
Open world is a must. Contested content is a must.
Yes, I do not like instanced dungeons or combat. However, i think it would be great if some of the encounters are scripted. For instance:
You fight your way into a dungeon. You see a gnome in a cage. You talk to him and he tells you that if you help him escape, he will reward you handsomely. You open the cage and immediately guards come out to stop the escape. A fight occurs in which you must defeat waves of mobs and fight your way to the exit. Once you do this however, the event is over and if you go back in the dungeon, it is just a normal dungeon again. You go back to the cage, and the gnome has respawned, but you are unable to start the event again for a full day, or hour, or whatever the devs want. This makes sure that the event is always possible (no one camping the mobs/event the entire time and not allowing others to play the content), and it also stop the problem of an instanced dungeon. You don't have to do the event, there are plenty of mobs there that give good xp and loot, you can even choose to help someone else doing the event, but you and anyone that completed it can not receive a reward from it if you have done it in the last day or hour or whatever.
Think everyone would like stuff like that, but you don't have to create an instance to have scripted events.
So what you are saying is mentoring systems do not work well for you in gear-dependent MMOs. It seems like the problem there is the design of the content. Since exploration and gear are your interests, it sound like it would make it worth your while if those dungeons offered some kind of reward for your character's actual level or if those dungeons were less static (ex: Dungeon Runners, Vindictus)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Exactly. I am not sure why people say the advantage of instancing is that you can do scripted events. You can do that without instancing as well. It might be slightly more difficult, but it allows greater immerision. The only advantage that instancing has is that content is never contested. However, if someone has to leave group mid instance, you have to find someone willing to do only 2 out of 4 bosses. In non-instanced dungeons, you can do the 2nd two bosses, and go back for the frist two when they respawn, and then do the 2nd two again.
If you get gear for doing any content no matter what level it is or how hard it is, it gives you no anticipation. There is nothing to look forward to. If I get the same reward for doing a dungeon I know is easy and have done before as I do a dungeon I have never done, is new to me, and harder, why would I do the harder one.
Vanguard has a problem like this as well. It has the United Threstran quests, as well as the bounty hunter quests that are purely soloable that give yellow gear (system goes green, blue, yellow, and then some more colors) The quests are easy, they dont take long to do, but they give better gear than most dungeons that are hard and take a full group. Why do dungeons then if you can get a full set of gear by doing the UT quests?
You're further exemplifying that it is a problem in gear chasing mechanics and not a flaw in the mentoring system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, people generally play the game to explore, gain levels, and get better gear. The mentoring stops 2 of the 3 reasons in its tracks. You are not exploring when mentoring, you are doing content you have already done. You are also not getting better gear. All you are getting is xp and maybe a bit of gold.
One of the ways to fix the need for mentoring is to:
1. slow down level progess. Why do you need to gain a level every 2 hours? If it takes 8 hours to gain a level mid game then you are near your friends levels for much longer. If your friend goes on vacation it doesn't mean he can no longer play with you because he is 10 levels behind.
2. Decrease how drastic levels are in fighting. There is no reason why when you kill something 4 levels beneath you, you get little to no reward. There is also no reason why something 4 levels above you is impossible to kill. A full group of 5 or 6 should be able to kill mobs 5 levels above them. However, this would be more risky and take longer. This way, someone level 14 and someone level 19 can still play together and enjoy new content.
I really like the idea of Slowing level progression. If you do that though when you do get a level, it needs to really mean something and be exciting. Nothing would be worse than slowing down level progression, get next level and get...well nothing for leveling up. I remember back in the day getting half a level in some games would get you a new spell/skill or something. As of now, the fast leveling does little than get you to end game faster...there isn't that same sense of wow look what I got for leveling up like their used to be.
I would even be down for using a method that UO originated back in the day. As you use a weapon your skill goes up, as you use a magic school, your skill goes up (to a max number per the level you are)
I hope EQNext allows you to actually gain experience and level up the gear you are using.
I always thought that'd be a great mechanic.
You can use epic quests or drops or high level crafting to jump up a couple of levels, but you gear levels up on it's own so any dedicated player doing any activity can eventually earn "best in slots" - but the skilled players defeating the most challenging content and/or most dedicated/skilled crafters get to leap frog up first/faster.
I think FFXIV is doing something like that with their Materia system.
Your gear levels up, but in order to get the "best" gear, you take max level gear and turn it into Materia, which then goes into Materia slots in other max level gear.
And you have to be a max level crafter in a specific profession to slot the Materia into gear.
Gives a good reason for gear destruction/replacement without player looting, and involves crafting.
And allows non-hardcore players to still improve their gear through use - just slower.
IMO would be a perfect type system for EQNext too.
I've also thought that a crafting system in which later Tier item creation requires materials and pieces from earlier Tiers would be a great move.
Like, Tier 2 gear would require a piece of Tier 1 gear + some Tier 2 mats. Tier 3 requires Tier 1 and 2 pieces and Tier 3 mats. etc.
But here is the kicker - add in quality and allow players to specialize in different tiers / materials.
So an "end game" crafter could only make Tier 1 pieces and materials, but only a Tier 1 specialist could do it. So the Tier 3 specialist who makes the most top-end gear available has to work with a Tier 1 specialist and a Tier 2 specialist.
Anyway... just rambling.
If we are talking solely about WOW, LOTRO, EQ2 and their many variants, then, yes. It seems more and more that the gear issue is really, once again, just another example of how the Diku/PnP style level systems just don't translate well to MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't agree with anyone, hehe.
I think the only good solo content was in EQ because they didn't design for solo play, but built it in a way that players had tools to solo, and mobs that weren't tied so you could.
The broken part of new games is linked mobs. If they had mobs you could pull solo or gang tackle in a group then both types of players would be happy. If they made NPC's right then solo players could find the spots that allowed them to level.
Asdar
I like the way you ramble. Had something similar in mind myself. I've always disliked the need to have multiple items of the same kind for different situations or everyone having to have the same "best" gear. Would love to have a base set of items that you are able to modify (look, stats, effects, etc) as you adventure.
Limit the number of options so you can't have a pair of boots that makes you fly, run fast, invis, etc but still allow freedom to alter as we see fit. Also could have drawbacks to certain abilities like increased speed comes with decreased accuracy so we have to decide what is best for us instead of everyone having a pair of running boots in their bag.
Also would like to get away from the named gear that gets old real fast when you see clones running around with the same look/stats. Let us modify everything to our specific needs and goals.
Mr. Dragon shouldn't drop X weapons Y chest piece and a back pack (Dragons have backpacks? Blizzard...). Instead mobs should be taken for what they have, skin, blood, essence, fangs, etc that can be crafted into gear to make it better but best of all unique. Instead of 5 must have items to make an helm, we can choose from 100 different items that fit our needs.
Overall just want to get away from the carrot on the stick + forced down a track. Don't mind trying to reach some unobtainable "best" but I want it to be my best not what the devs or other players have decided is.
Simply said if Soloing provides as much benefit as Grouping then there wont be much emphasis on Grouping. Soloing Dungeons and areas with many dynamic MOBs should not exist in EQN as it doesn't even seem feasible in any way remotely resembling a truly immersive persistent world.
I can see Soloing as it was done in early Everquest by slowly, carefully, and strategically choosing your prey and attacking it in a good location open location without alot of wandering MOBs. Anything more then that shouldn't be feasible or sensible as the player wants to really feel immersed in the game they should be constantly aware of danger either from above, below, or nearby by MOBs moving to and fro throughout the given area. Kiting should exist in this game whatsoeva!
Wasn't it nice being stealth attacked by Griffon's in the Commonlands back in the day? Or smashed by a Hill Giant? Sand Giants in South and North Ro?
Players shouldn't feel comfortable Soloing in a MMORPG. They should feel more at ease in a Group since you have players who are there to work together and as they say more eyes are better then one.
If I designed a game even Groups would have to be on guard and TRAINs would be back in the game. It only makes sense that MOBs are going to attack targets of opportunity and if a player is weak or in trouble they should take the opportunity to put them out of the misery and even the score. I am all for making players work for their rewards.
Even a Raid Boss should lay waste to even the best of Raids before being taken down by a strategy handed down and repeated again and again to the point they are on a consistent camp timer allowed by the game mechanics. It should be a worthwhile and hearty fight with great reward to take down a Raid Boss as most MMORPGs have trivialized Raid Content to the point where it is laughable and no where near where it should be. I mean we are talking about killing Dragons, Gods, Demons, Giants, etc...Colossal Mobs should produce massive damage to more then just the freakin tank often ultra buffed and mega healed and insanely protected.
The first real raid upon Nagafen in Everquest resulted in a massive fear in which caused an entire wipe of the raid and I laughed out loud when I heard about it and viewed the screenshots. It wasn't long afterwards that it turned into a campfest as well as countless other Raid Mobs. So sorry to go on a tangent about Raiding but since when is a Raid boss going to focus damage on one particular target.
Back to Grouping or Soloing; If you want to be Fredrick the Rat Killer go solo a bunch of rats and get the title. Though if you want to Solo something well beyond your level or in any area that simply should be too risky for even the foolhearty you should be running back to your corpse like any other village idiot who ventured out to far cuz someone knocked over his ale and took his wench one fateful evening :P
I think there should be equal rewards for time invested in the game, whether grouping or soloing.
I find a lot of hypocrisy in people who claim to love to group but who want the group rewards to be much better than soloing rewards. If you love grouping so much, then THAT is your reward...you get to play in the game mode you like best. You shouldn't get better drops. If you need better drops as an incentive to group, then you didn't really like grouping that much, did you?
In summary: Both grouping and soloing should give equivalent rewards for the amount of time invested in the game. Anything else amounts to the game saying "well, you can do that other thing, but I will punish you for it..."
So what's the incentive to go through the hassle of putting a group together if the reward isn't better? People are going to take the path of least resistance so if the rewards are the same for soloing and grouping there aren't going to be many that will put in the time to get a group together. In order to create a community, there has to be the need to put one together.
You say there should be equal rewards for time invested. I disagree. People should be rewarded for their time invested and EFFORT put forth. It takes more effort to put together a group than it does to solo. Getting 6 people together takes much more effort in a non automatching group finder than it does to solo. Getting a raid together of 40-72 people takes much more effort than a group does. The rewards should scale accordingly.
If people don't like that, there's nearly 10 years worth of MMOs that you can solo to max and get top gear in no time at all. People who've played EQ when it was at it's peak have been screaming for something different than what's been considered the norm for years now. Not every game HAS to do this and this and this whole checklist of bullshit that's been considered standard features now. They've said they're using EQ1 as it's core or template if you will, I hope they stick true to that. There's plenty of other games, out now and coming up, that do what has been done. We want something different.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
Here here yes indeedy, if soloing is your thing then play classes suited for ambushing, overwhelming your surprised victim and then vanishing as a an Assassin. Sneak around Dungeons all you desire as a Rogue. Play a Ranger type tracking, felling a foe with your arrow whilst being camoflauged in the woods.
Though insisting on the same rewards (class/race specific and epic quest soloing scenerios being an exception here) Soloing vs Grouping, that is utter nonsense, and why even play a MMORPG? Go play a Single Player RPG or the numerous trivialized MMORPGs you can easily solo to max level and even aquire hearty lewtz.
A real sense of community needs to return to MMORPGs and grouping is a must if you really want to return to the good ol days where you had to group to overcome, prevail and gather riches and good items otherwise you experienced many a corpse run and rightly so...
I remember grouping in early Everquest and no one new hardly anything about crowd control and aggro management (please go beyond these borrowed, handed down time and again ad nauseum strategies which make a joke out of MOB AI) and being that I was the puller...guess who died alot simply because MMORPGs were new and this was the first 3D MMORPG and everyone was basically on the same learning curve. Players learned early on who was worthwhile to party with and who needed more learning experience as dying cost a player alot of gametime as it should imho.
Also remember my first dungeon experience being invited into Befallen as a level 7 Monk and being in a group with someone who beta tested Everquest and was playing female dwarven cleric named Rose who obviously wasn't female irl cuz all they were doing was bitching/complaining at everyone and taking their time healing players just right before they died...all I wanted to do was run out of the place yet stuck it out and we obtained some good items for everyone involved in it (This was back when the Ogre Shadowknight constantly summoned skeletons and that is as far as we made it).
Solo vs Group play goes hand in hand with the Casual Player vs Hardcore Gamer arguement I have seen on many a MMORPG forum. We are far removed from the early days of Everquest as alot of folks have some experience in MMORPGs and there are so many to choose from. Community is where its at in the long run and its been many years since I have truly experienced it in an MMORPG.
Theres plenty of games out there already just for you. In fact, any MMO from the last decade to be specific, as well as a vast array of single player games like the elder scrolls series.
The rest of us are waiting for something different - a group oriented game - which is why we hope EQN will be the true spiritual successor of Everquest in that respect. The endless cries for solo MMOGs (massive MULTIPLAYER online games) is a plague upon the genre, and they've led to the trivialization of every new game.
We're waiting for something different and people need to learn to respect that.