you are poor and cant afford gaming yet can afford a gaming computer
you are cheap and like not paying for entertainment and believe people should labor for free to entertain you
you are wealthy and like to pay to dominate poor people
you are a child and have no means to pay
I guess I could add that you just hop around games too much to bother with paying for any one game.
F2P games are fine for what they are I guess, my problem is when you do end up liking the game, it costs way more than a p2p game to have it all and compete. If you love a game its hard not to pay for full access and all the bells and whistles..and that price tag is typically $500+ and in some games, to compete...well over $5000
Or I can just play a p2p game, have no surprises, no new cash shop item that I must have for $40-$60
People don't want to see F2P and b2p games (which are just f2p games with a box price) for what they are...and that's a better means to screw players by hitting the big spenders hard...theres too much propaganda..people would rather see a p2p game they want to play go f2p than paying for it and enjoying the full game and fair gamefield as everyone else.
Funny thing is now we are starting to see the f2p games implode...and since they are already f2p...theres no back up plan...and when a f2p game shuts down...well people who spent tons of money soon learn...like when a life time subber to a p2p game sees his game go f2p..it sucks.
Vengesunsolar may be having posting issues but the question remains:
CoH was launched in 2004 and became F2P in September 2011. "Going Rogue" was released in 2010. What is the name of the expansion you think was launched after CoH went F2P?
Also EQ and EQ2 went F2P very recently, they have consistently put out several years of expansions and updates while P2P. After going F2P they seem to be doing both updates and expansions, but it is early days to say that F2P is maintaining the tradition of good updating. In another couple of years you could make a fair comparison.
Having said that so far so good for EQ and EQ2, I accept that those two seem to be doing OK.
Vengesunsolar may be having posting issues but the question remains:
CoH was launched in 2004 and became F2P in September 2011. "Going Rogue" was released in 2010. What is the name of the expansion you think was launched after CoH went F2P?
Also EQ and EQ2 went F2P very recently, they have consistently put out several years of expansions and updates while P2P. After going F2P they seem to be doing both updates and expansions, but it is early days to say that F2P is maintaining the tradition of good updating. In another couple of years you could make a fair comparison.
Having said that so far so good for EQ and EQ2, I accept that those two seem to be doing OK.
Wurm works more with a freemium model granted but you can work your way towards being free 2 play quite easily without spending a dime... oh and how could I have forgotten the sandbox that makes grindcore fans say "that's too much grind...":
STO as we all know was P2P for longer than SWtOR and yet saw it's only expansion to date well over a year into its free 2 play iteration.
TL;DR version: If the game is good payment model does not matter it will continue to evolve and see iteration.
Do you have any idea how insanely expensive Entropia is to play?
Do you even know that POE isn't a mmorpg?
Do you realize how terrible the other games you listed were?
Look threads like this are completely pointless. Pro F2P camp says whatever, their mind will never change, Pro P2P says whatever, their minds will never change.
Oh and whoever suggested that someones parents pay his bills because he doesn't deem $15 a month to be a lot: you sir need to get priorities straight, if $15 is too steep...you shouldn't be buying gaming rigs and shouldn't be wasting so much time gaming. Get a second job or some education to help dig you out of that financial hole. Games can wait. I found this to be one of the more depressing posts...it makes me sad to see people struggling financially but doing nothing to help themselves get out of that situation.
Look threads like this are completely pointless. Pro F2P camp says whatever, their mind will never change, Pro P2P says whatever, their minds will never change.
The difference is that one group deals in facts. The other rejects them; spouting anecdotes, insults, and the ever frustrating dismissal of concrete data. That is what makes these threads pointless. It's like explaining carbon dating to a Young Earth creationist.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Vengesunsolar may be having posting issues but the question remains:
CoH was launched in 2004 and became F2P in September 2011. "Going Rogue" was released in 2010. What is the name of the expansion you think was launched after CoH went F2P?
Also EQ and EQ2 went F2P very recently, they have consistently put out several years of expansions and updates while P2P. After going F2P they seem to be doing both updates and expansions, but it is early days to say that F2P is maintaining the tradition of good updating. In another couple of years you could make a fair comparison.
Having said that so far so good for EQ and EQ2, I accept that those two seem to be doing OK.
I just don't see the point of arguing it anymore.
The fact is the rate of updates/year for ALL the games I mentioned have been the same.
LOTRO, COH, EQ, EQ2, STO.
Yes it is early days. Things may change in the future. Howver at this time to say that the companies are putting out less updates after the conversion is factually false.
edit - your agruments were irrelevant to the discussion. The discussion was if f2p or freemium conversion made the updates less frequent.
You argued the dates of lotro f2p, and yes you were right, however agreed that the number of updates were the same and even agreed with this, therefore the frequency of updates were the same.
You argued the number of expansions before and after CoH, which is correct, however the rate of updates were the same, 2.8/year before f2p, 3 after f2p. Even the rate of expansions were the same, 2 in 7 years before f2p making less than one per year, or 5 years without an expansion, and none for the year it was f2p. - therefore the frequency of updates, and expansions for that matter are the same.
Your argument was irrelevant to the discussion so I didn't feel like continuing it anymore.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Look threads like this are completely pointless. Pro F2P camp says whatever, their mind will never change, Pro P2P says whatever, their minds will never change.
The difference is that one group deals in facts. The other rejects them; spouting anecdotes, insults, and the ever frustrating dismissal of concrete data. That is what makes these threads pointless. It's like explaining carbon dating to a Young Earth creationist.
Completely pointless? You erroneously assume the point is to convince others.
That is rarely the goal on the internet. Anyone who has spent any time on the internet knows that is impossible.
Debate is about having some fun while the work day is slow. Think of it as forum pvp. And thread like this makes a great F2P arena.
Look threads like this are completely pointless. Pro F2P camp says whatever, their mind will never change, Pro P2P says whatever, their minds will never change.
The difference is that one group deals in facts. The other rejects them; spouting anecdotes, insults, and the ever frustrating dismissal of concrete data. That is what makes these threads pointless. It's like explaining carbon dating to a Young Earth creationist.
Completely pointless? You erroneously assume the point is to convince others.
That is rarely the goal on the internet. Anyone who has spent any time on the internet knows that is impossible.
Debate is about having some fun while the work day is slow. Think of it as forum pvp. And thread like this makes a great F2P arena.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Look threads like this are completely pointless. Pro F2P camp says whatever, their mind will never change, Pro P2P says whatever, their minds will never change.
The difference is that one group deals in facts. The other rejects them; spouting anecdotes, insults, and the ever frustrating dismissal of concrete data. That is what makes these threads pointless. It's like explaining carbon dating to a Young Earth creationist.
Are you referring to those statistics that come from those two completely disinterested sources? Aside from the argument of credible sources, the fact is that statistics are an interpretation/opinion of a data set, and citing them as facts is silly at best.
Look threads like this are completely pointless. Pro F2P camp says whatever, their mind will never change, Pro P2P says whatever, their minds will never change.
The difference is that one group deals in facts. The other rejects them; spouting anecdotes, insults, and the ever frustrating dismissal of concrete data. That is what makes these threads pointless. It's like explaining carbon dating to a Young Earth creationist.
Are you referring to those statistics that come from those two completely disinterested sources? Aside from the argument of credible sources, the fact is that statistics are an interpretation/opinion of a data set, and citing them as facts is silly at best.
Um no. Statistics are just raw data, even improperly collected statistics are just raw data, the stat themselves are fact. There is no opinion on the statistics themselves.
It's the conclusion drawn from stats that is opinion, and frought with error.
It's the conclusion that needs to be justified based on the stats, and if the stats are not collected properly will not hold up the opinion.
Again stats are just raw data.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Um no. Statistics are just raw data, even improperly collected statistics are just raw data, the stat themselves are fact. There is no opinion on the statistics themselves.
It's the conclusion drawn from stats that is opinion, and frought with error.
It's the conclusion that needs to be justified based on the stats, and if the stats are not collected properly will not hold up the opinion.
Um no. Statistics are just raw data, even improperly collected statistics are just raw data, the stat themselves are fact. There is no opinion on the statistics themselves.
It's the conclusion drawn from stats that is opinion, and frought with error.
It's the conclusion that needs to be justified based on the stats, and if the stats are not collected properly will not hold up the opinion.
When I hear a game is F2P about to go F2P, I immediately just avoid the game like the plague. I don't know why this is really, but its just the way I feel - from my experience of F2P games up until now. They are always terrible. Plus I'm seriously aggravated by the free to play app model where they give you a game and then attempt to charge you $50 to buy special super bananas or whatever the hell to actually play it.
These games are always totally awful anyway so it just grates on me.
Oh for the days when games were made for the love of the process and result rather than the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I don't understand the recent boom in popularity about the F2P model, Everyone's mom is talking about F2P. I ask, why?
Every F2P game I have played has been very under whelming.
- The graphics are "meh."
- The game play is always generic questing with the yellow Exclamation mark.
- Never more than 3-4 classes, usually genaric.
- Never anything new, always just recycled ideas done a billion times over.
- The combat and overall game feels like it was made in some ones garage.
Besides being a cheap @ss, what do people see in these games?
What f2p games are you referring to?
Rift, SWTOR, LoTRO, EQ2, PS2, NWO, AoC... well I think you get my point. F2P in itself means little besides describing the business model. There are varying degrees of quality and such among the games that use this business model.
I prefer buy to play but I am not totally against free to play. I like free to play for one reason and one reason only. Some games can be fun to a degree but they simply lack that special something that makes them worth paying monthly for or paying for at all. Free to play allows me to enjoy those games or at least aspects of those games for free where as I would have written them off otherwise.
Buy to play for me is the best model.
Pay to play is great if and only if the game warrants it and sadly very few ever do.
Look threads like this are completely pointless. Pro F2P camp says whatever, their mind will never change, Pro P2P says whatever, their minds will never change.
The difference is that one group deals in facts. The other rejects them; spouting anecdotes, insults, and the ever frustrating dismissal of concrete data. That is what makes these threads pointless. It's like explaining carbon dating to a Young Earth creationist.
Are you referring to those statistics that come from those two completely disinterested sources? Aside from the argument of credible sources, the fact is that statistics are an interpretation/opinion of a data set, and citing them as facts is silly at best.
A perfect example of what we are dealing with. Thank you. You may now go back to riding your raptor, TT.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I hate the p2w system devs are taking into account BUT what it does do is helps me know what games are going to be shitfests and not to keep up on information about the game until its released, then play it 2 weeks and drop it. Where as with the games with subs I know its probably going to be a decently made game therefore I can put some time into learning about the game and getting a little hyped up for it as it will probably hold my attention a little bit longer.
Basically when a game goes f2p they might as well be saying this game is just some trash coming out that you will have a couple of days fun and throw aside. A sort of a rating system if you will.
Subscription games are on a even playing field where wealthy people get no advantage:
-Wealthy always have an advantage, be it from buying gold, rare loot with real money which has happened in every single online game, to paying to be power leveled or achievements, etc. The only difference is if you are paying some other players or the company itself. Do you not see what micro transactions really did? They cut out the 'Chinese gold seller' middlemen and took their role and use that as an income. I mean there was no getting rid of them anyways, so why not profit off of it?
First, the number of people resorting to a third party before was tiny compared to how it is today where a cash shop is shoved in everyone's face. Second, in the past if someone I knew did that I could just tell them they are cheating scum and refuse to play with them. Now games have legitimized it.
Before if you wanted something powerful, cool, or fun you had to work together to go out and find it and earn it. Now, even in the most well designed of f2p games, there is always someone in my gaming groups who just instantly buys all this cool stuff. What's the point of working together if my partner or gaming group is always going to have all this cool stuff right from the start. I really hate that there is no cap on the cost of these games. Before everyone was equal because everyone payed the same entry fee. Now that there is no limit to what that entry fee is there is always someone who is willing to spend more and buys their way to superiority even if it is just cosmetic superiority. Part of the fun for me was comparing my progress to my friends and guild mates. That is gone now.
Subscription games are on a even playing field where wealthy people get no advantage:
-Wealthy always have an advantage, be it from buying gold, rare loot with real money which has happened in every single online game, to paying to be power leveled or achievements, etc. The only difference is if you are paying some other players or the company itself. Do you not see what micro transactions really did? They cut out the 'Chinese gold seller' middlemen and took their role and use that as an income. I mean there was no getting rid of them anyways, so why not profit off of it?
First, the number of people resorting to a third party before was tiny compared to how it is today where a cash shop is shoved in everyone's face. Second, in the past if someone I knew did that I could just tell them they are cheating scum and refuse to play with them. Now games have legitimized it.
Before if you wanted something powerful, cool, or fun you had to work together to go out and find it and earn it. Now, even in the most well designed of f2p games, there is always someone in my gaming groups who just instantly buys all this cool stuff. What's the point of working together if my partner or gaming group is always going to have all this cool stuff right from the start. I really hate that there is no cap on the cost of these games. Before everyone was equal because everyone payed the same entry fee. Now that there is no limit to what that entry fee is there is always someone who is willing to spend more and buys their way to superiority even if it is just cosmetic superiority. Part of the fun for me was comparing my progress to my friends and guild mates. That is gone now.
Comparing the effect of a cash shop on a MMO to gold sellers just does not wash. Like he said the numbers using cash shops are much larger. Posters on here have mentioned studies showing between a third and a half of players use the cash shop. That will distort the economy and more importantly render a level playing field impossible. Oh yes and it is more fun to achieve things in a game with friends than buying them.
This is the mentality of posers down the mall overriding the gaming ethos which made these games so great. The achievement of difficult quests on your own or the challenge of raids has been replaced by a shopping trip to the mall.
Comments
The appeal is:
you are poor and cant afford gaming yet can afford a gaming computer
you are cheap and like not paying for entertainment and believe people should labor for free to entertain you
you are wealthy and like to pay to dominate poor people
you are a child and have no means to pay
I guess I could add that you just hop around games too much to bother with paying for any one game.
F2P games are fine for what they are I guess, my problem is when you do end up liking the game, it costs way more than a p2p game to have it all and compete. If you love a game its hard not to pay for full access and all the bells and whistles..and that price tag is typically $500+ and in some games, to compete...well over $5000
Or I can just play a p2p game, have no surprises, no new cash shop item that I must have for $40-$60
People don't want to see F2P and b2p games (which are just f2p games with a box price) for what they are...and that's a better means to screw players by hitting the big spenders hard...theres too much propaganda..people would rather see a p2p game they want to play go f2p than paying for it and enjoying the full game and fair gamefield as everyone else.
Funny thing is now we are starting to see the f2p games implode...and since they are already f2p...theres no back up plan...and when a f2p game shuts down...well people who spent tons of money soon learn...like when a life time subber to a p2p game sees his game go f2p..it sucks.
Vengesunsolar may be having posting issues but the question remains:
CoH was launched in 2004 and became F2P in September 2011. "Going Rogue" was released in 2010. What is the name of the expansion you think was launched after CoH went F2P?
Also EQ and EQ2 went F2P very recently, they have consistently put out several years of expansions and updates while P2P. After going F2P they seem to be doing both updates and expansions, but it is early days to say that F2P is maintaining the tradition of good updating. In another couple of years you could make a fair comparison.
Having said that so far so good for EQ and EQ2, I accept that those two seem to be doing OK.
Wurm works more with a freemium model granted but you can work your way towards being free 2 play quite easily without spending a dime... oh and how could I have forgotten the sandbox that makes grindcore fans say "that's too much grind...":
STO as we all know was P2P for longer than SWtOR and yet saw it's only expansion to date well over a year into its free 2 play iteration.
TL;DR version: If the game is good payment model does not matter it will continue to evolve and see iteration.
Do you have any idea how insanely expensive Entropia is to play?
Do you even know that POE isn't a mmorpg?
Do you realize how terrible the other games you listed were?
Look threads like this are completely pointless. Pro F2P camp says whatever, their mind will never change, Pro P2P says whatever, their minds will never change.
Oh and whoever suggested that someones parents pay his bills because he doesn't deem $15 a month to be a lot: you sir need to get priorities straight, if $15 is too steep...you shouldn't be buying gaming rigs and shouldn't be wasting so much time gaming. Get a second job or some education to help dig you out of that financial hole. Games can wait. I found this to be one of the more depressing posts...it makes me sad to see people struggling financially but doing nothing to help themselves get out of that situation.
Close enough. Many MMOs has the same playstyle .. instanced co-op play + some public zone as the lobby.
Don't be narrow minded. I don't just play MMORPGs .. do you?
The difference is that one group deals in facts. The other rejects them; spouting anecdotes, insults, and the ever frustrating dismissal of concrete data. That is what makes these threads pointless. It's like explaining carbon dating to a Young Earth creationist.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I just don't see the point of arguing it anymore.
The fact is the rate of updates/year for ALL the games I mentioned have been the same.
LOTRO, COH, EQ, EQ2, STO.
Yes it is early days. Things may change in the future. Howver at this time to say that the companies are putting out less updates after the conversion is factually false.
edit - your agruments were irrelevant to the discussion. The discussion was if f2p or freemium conversion made the updates less frequent.
You argued the dates of lotro f2p, and yes you were right, however agreed that the number of updates were the same and even agreed with this, therefore the frequency of updates were the same.
You argued the number of expansions before and after CoH, which is correct, however the rate of updates were the same, 2.8/year before f2p, 3 after f2p. Even the rate of expansions were the same, 2 in 7 years before f2p making less than one per year, or 5 years without an expansion, and none for the year it was f2p. - therefore the frequency of updates, and expansions for that matter are the same.
Your argument was irrelevant to the discussion so I didn't feel like continuing it anymore.
Completely pointless? You erroneously assume the point is to convince others.
That is rarely the goal on the internet. Anyone who has spent any time on the internet knows that is impossible.
Debate is about having some fun while the work day is slow. Think of it as forum pvp. And thread like this makes a great F2P arena.
DDO too
http://www.ddo.com/en/game/release-notes
EQ2 fan sites
I would rather say if devs want to entertainment for free, why should i refuse?
I don't hold a gun to their head to give me free games.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I suppose it never occurred to you that those might also not be MMORPGs?
I think this is where we add the " black kettle " statement.
Are you referring to those statistics that come from those two completely disinterested sources? Aside from the argument of credible sources, the fact is that statistics are an interpretation/opinion of a data set, and citing them as facts is silly at best.
Um no. Statistics are just raw data, even improperly collected statistics are just raw data, the stat themselves are fact. There is no opinion on the statistics themselves.
It's the conclusion drawn from stats that is opinion, and frought with error.
It's the conclusion that needs to be justified based on the stats, and if the stats are not collected properly will not hold up the opinion.
Again stats are just raw data.
Obvious the fact that i say "close enough" is evidence that i know they are not MMORPGs.
The difference is that i don't care if they are not. "Close enough" .. means just that .. they are not MMORPGs but close enough for me.
Do you seriously think that whether PoE is labelled a MMORPG would change my mind about the game?
/facepalm
That is not how I used the term.
Ya. That doesn't really back up your view.
I have to agree.
When I hear a game is F2P about to go F2P, I immediately just avoid the game like the plague. I don't know why this is really, but its just the way I feel - from my experience of F2P games up until now. They are always terrible. Plus I'm seriously aggravated by the free to play app model where they give you a game and then attempt to charge you $50 to buy special super bananas or whatever the hell to actually play it.
These games are always totally awful anyway so it just grates on me.
Oh for the days when games were made for the love of the process and result rather than the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
hallo ~_~
What f2p games are you referring to?
Rift, SWTOR, LoTRO, EQ2, PS2, NWO, AoC... well I think you get my point. F2P in itself means little besides describing the business model. There are varying degrees of quality and such among the games that use this business model.
I prefer buy to play but I am not totally against free to play. I like free to play for one reason and one reason only. Some games can be fun to a degree but they simply lack that special something that makes them worth paying monthly for or paying for at all. Free to play allows me to enjoy those games or at least aspects of those games for free where as I would have written them off otherwise.
Buy to play for me is the best model.
Pay to play is great if and only if the game warrants it and sadly very few ever do.
A perfect example of what we are dealing with. Thank you. You may now go back to riding your raptor, TT.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I hate the p2w system devs are taking into account BUT what it does do is helps me know what games are going to be shitfests and not to keep up on information about the game until its released, then play it 2 weeks and drop it. Where as with the games with subs I know its probably going to be a decently made game therefore I can put some time into learning about the game and getting a little hyped up for it as it will probably hold my attention a little bit longer.
Basically when a game goes f2p they might as well be saying this game is just some trash coming out that you will have a couple of days fun and throw aside. A sort of a rating system if you will.
First, the number of people resorting to a third party before was tiny compared to how it is today where a cash shop is shoved in everyone's face. Second, in the past if someone I knew did that I could just tell them they are cheating scum and refuse to play with them. Now games have legitimized it.
Before if you wanted something powerful, cool, or fun you had to work together to go out and find it and earn it. Now, even in the most well designed of f2p games, there is always someone in my gaming groups who just instantly buys all this cool stuff. What's the point of working together if my partner or gaming group is always going to have all this cool stuff right from the start. I really hate that there is no cap on the cost of these games. Before everyone was equal because everyone payed the same entry fee. Now that there is no limit to what that entry fee is there is always someone who is willing to spend more and buys their way to superiority even if it is just cosmetic superiority. Part of the fun for me was comparing my progress to my friends and guild mates. That is gone now.
Comparing the effect of a cash shop on a MMO to gold sellers just does not wash. Like he said the numbers using cash shops are much larger. Posters on here have mentioned studies showing between a third and a half of players use the cash shop. That will distort the economy and more importantly render a level playing field impossible. Oh yes and it is more fun to achieve things in a game with friends than buying them.
This is the mentality of posers down the mall overriding the gaming ethos which made these games so great. The achievement of difficult quests on your own or the challenge of raids has been replaced by a shopping trip to the mall.