Grouping and player interaction is what makes an MMO an MMO for me. Otherwise I could easily play a single player game with bots and scripted teammates and perform. There is something to be said for teamwork and coordination to overcome an objective and that is tons of fun for me. I also prefer other people to grind with because it makes the game far more interesting to me. I miss leveling in old EQ and FF11 where grouping was way more efficient than soloing and thus people actively sought groups for their every day play experience.
If you like the setting and the combat mechanics of a MMO, there is no reason why you shouldn't play MMO as a SP game. Whether the game is a MMO or not, is irrelevant.
I like Star Trek. I like STO ship combat. I don't see another Sp game in which i can drive a refitted constitution class star ship. So i play STO .. and sometimes like a SP game. I don't play it for its MMO-ness, i play it for its setting and mechanics.
Well I already know based on your previous posts that you dislike grouping, Cephus404. I think your attitude of play how I want to play and don't adapt is a self fufilling prophecy about why you dislike grouping. That is your choice however.
Yes it is my choice, however, I don't dislike grouping, I dislike the majority of people I'm forced to group with. Give me an entirely better class of people to group with, that have the same style of gameplay and are not obnoxious gits and I'll be happy to group.
Grouping and player interaction is what makes an MMO an MMO for me. Otherwise I could easily play a single player game with bots and scripted teammates and perform. There is something to be said for teamwork and coordination to overcome an objective and that is tons of fun for me. I also prefer other people to grind with because it makes the game far more interesting to me. I miss leveling in old EQ and FF11 where grouping was way more efficient than soloing and thus people actively sought groups for their every day play experience.
Trust me, if there were enough single-player games out there to play, I wouldn't bother with MMOs. However, the majority of FPS games out there have a very short SP mode and then all online PvP mode. No thanks.
Nowdays I see more people avoiding each other. Heavily scripted quest content makes grouping up for tasks awkward and inefficient. Even dungeons and raids are being given "solo options" where you get queued in to go with a group but no one talks, and the instance is nerfed so interaction is needed much less than before.
Mostly because the people they'd have to play with are generally dicks. I don't blame people for not wanting to group up, owing to the generally low-quality people you'd have to group with.
Game developers have lessened the need for finding and adapting ones own play to the play of others and in doing so they have lessened the social bonds that tie people to the game. And then those same game devs wonder why the player base leaves and goes to another game and they have to go FTP to get people back in....
F2P makes more money than P2P, sorry.
Other people are what makes an MMO an MMO and they are CRITICAL to the long term fun of an MMO.
In your opinion and you're certainly welcome to it. It's not the case for many, perhaps even most people who play MMOs.
Other people are what makes an MMO an MMO and they are CRITICAL to the long term fun of an MMO.
In your opinion and you're certainly welcome to it. It's not the case for many, perhaps even most people who play MMOs.
I want to add to the point. Aside from some people on this forum, i doubt if many players even care if a game is a proper MMO. Other people is not critical to the long term fun of games. Many play Diablo 2 solo for years. Surely D2 may not be a MMO .. but most don't care about that distinction.
Heck, people can play MMOs like SP games if they want to, can they not?
But why would you complain about feeling obligated to solo solo content?
Why wouldn't you choose the game's group content, if group content is what you want?
Where is this mythical game that has group content at all stages of the game? Because I can't find one. All modern MMO's are about soloing for a large section, then a group instance at the end. Then move on to the next section and do exactly the same. Let's take The Secret World as an example, you enter Kingsmouth, you solo all the way through Kingsmouth, then at the end of Kingsmouth there's the Polaris group instance. The only group content up until that point. Then you move on to the Savage Coast, solo all the Savage Coast, then group for Hell Fallen instance at the end.
If modern MMO's had group content throughout the whole game - and I'm not talking about grouping up for the sake of grouping up, I mean actual challenging content that needed a group to get through it - I'd be as happy as a pig in s**t. Unfortunately, they don't.
I want to add to the point. Aside from some people on this forum, i doubt if many players even care if a game is a proper MMO. Other people is not critical to the long term fun of games. Many play Diablo 2 solo for years. Surely D2 may not be a MMO .. but most don't care about that distinction.
Heck, people can play MMOs like SP games if they want to, can they not?
Other people are not critical to the fun of games, you can see that in single player games, however, they are critical to the life of a game. Modern MMO's can be played like single player games, but if that's all people are playing them for then that too affects the life of the game. It can be seen in single player games - people buy them, play them, complete them, throw them in the cupboard and maybe go back to them again sometime in the future. More often than not, they remain gathering dust in the cupboard.
MMO's rely on a steady income to keep them operational. If the games are played as single player games and designed as such, it gives people no reason to stay, so the amount of players drop, the income drops for the company, less players mean less options for those who have decided to stay and work on the group content. Eventually you see server merges, free trials and the inevitable change to F2P.
This is one of the things that really confuses me about modern MMO development. Why are they making single player games with multiplayer elements? Games designed with multiplayer as the focus last for years - for MMO's look at EverQuest, still going strong and still releasing expansions, for other games look at Counterstrike which people are still playing to this day, or Starcraft, especially in the Asian market.
Single player games are meant to be consumed and discarded, they're little chunks of fun to fill our time. MMO developers really need to realise this fact, or they're just going to keep facing failure after failure.
Other people are not critical to the fun of games, you can see that in single player games, however, they are critical to the life of a game. Modern MMO's can be played like single player games, but if that's all people are playing them for then that too affects the life of the game. It can be seen in single player games - people buy them, play them, complete them, throw them in the cupboard and maybe go back to them again sometime in the future. More often than not, they remain gathering dust in the cupboard.
Sure. And plenty of players "finish" MMOs and move on.
MMO's rely on a steady income to keep them operational. If the games are played as single player games and designed as such, it gives people no reason to stay, so the amount of players drop, the income drops for the company, less players mean less options for those who have decided to stay and work on the group content. Eventually you see server merges, free trials and the inevitable change to F2P.
That is where you are wrong. MMOs no longer plan on, or need a steady income. See all the F2P games. See B2P successes. So what if MMOs are planned to be completed in 3 months, and people can move onto the next game? Many games have healthy budgets. MMO can too.
This is one of the things that really confuses me about modern MMO development. Why are they making single player games with multiplayer elements? Games designed with multiplayer as the focus last for years - for MMO's look at EverQuest, still going strong and still releasing expansions, for other games look at Counterstrike which people are still playing to this day, or Starcraft, especially in the Asian market.
Because you don't need to last for years to make money. Isn't that kind of obvious? Sure SC2 last for years .. how many are like that? Look at Halo .. each installment last only for a while but all make huge amount.
Single player games are meant to be consumed and discarded, they're little chunks of fun to fill our time. MMO developers really need to realise this fact, or they're just going to keep facing failure after failure.
SP games can make tons of money and be successful too. There is no reason why that success model cannot be transplanted to MMOs .. in fact, GW1 & 2 are good examples of that success.
I want to add to the point. Aside from some people on this forum, i doubt if many players even care if a game is a proper MMO. Other people is not critical to the long term fun of games. Many play Diablo 2 solo for years. Surely D2 may not be a MMO .. but most don't care about that distinction.
Heck, people can play MMOs like SP games if they want to, can they not?
Other people are not critical to the fun of games, you can see that in single player games, however, they are critical to the life of a game. Modern MMO's can be played like single player games, but if that's all people are playing them for then that too affects the life of the game. It can be seen in single player games - people buy them, play them, complete them, throw them in the cupboard and maybe go back to them again sometime in the future. More often than not, they remain gathering dust in the cupboard.
MMO's rely on a steady income to keep them operational. If the games are played as single player games and designed as such, it gives people no reason to stay, so the amount of players drop, the income drops for the company, less players mean less options for those who have decided to stay and work on the group content. Eventually you see server merges, free trials and the inevitable change to F2P.
This is one of the things that really confuses me about modern MMO development. Why are they making single player games with multiplayer elements? Games designed with multiplayer as the focus last for years - for MMO's look at EverQuest, still going strong and still releasing expansions, for other games look at Counterstrike which people are still playing to this day, or Starcraft, especially in the Asian market.
Single player games are meant to be consumed and discarded, they're little chunks of fun to fill our time. MMO developers really need to realise this fact, or they're just going to keep facing failure after failure.
The vast majority of gamers move on to new games constantly. Take Half-Life. I loved the game, but I haven't played it in a long time. No, correction, I replayed it when they did the Black Mesa fan version, but for most old games, I never replay them. It's one and done. I've got so many games, I could never hope to play through them more than once, twice at the outside. So why do you think that MMOs ought to be any different? Play them until you get tired of them, then go do something else!
MMOs are just games, like anything else. I think you have unrealistic expectation of them.
The vast majority of gamers move on to new games constantly. Take Half-Life. I loved the game, but I haven't played it in a long time. No, correction, I replayed it when they did the Black Mesa fan version, but for most old games, I never replay them. It's one and done. I've got so many games, I could never hope to play through them more than once, twice at the outside. So why do you think that MMOs ought to be any different? Play them until you get tired of them, then go do something else!
MMOs are just games, like anything else. I think you have unrealistic expectation of them.
And i don't think we need to worry about game companies. They understand churn MUCH better than we do and they analyze that data day in and day out.
Even WOW ... many players quit before reaching max level.
I am quite sure they don't expect everyone to stick around, and they don't need everyone to stick around to make money.
While this was not an official and technically representative poll, it does show that 70% of voters find the social aspect a very important, if not crucial, element of MMO gameplay.
A smart game will be one that fosters interrelationships that these voters value so highly.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
While this was not an official and technically representative poll, it does show that 70% of voters find the social aspect a very important, if not crucial, element of MMO gameplay.
A smart game will be one that fosters interrelationships that these voters value so highly.
Yet games can't do a damn thing about it. You cannot force people who have nothing in common to enjoy working together and be social together. The MMO community is fundamentally different than it was back in the days of UO and EQ. It will never, ever, ever go back to the way it was back then.
Stop living in a fantasy world and deal with the reality as it actually is.
Voted 75% or more. In multiplayer games for obvious reasons, other players is an absolute neccessity for my enjoyement since other people is infact a requirement to be multiplayer. If we are talking singleplayer games with multiplayer components like for example starcraft 2 then it really depends on which part is the most well made.
Depends. If it's open PVP the less people I see the happier I am. I don't like being bothered while questing and I have EVE level paranoia. It's hard to play fun that way.
For a PvE perspective I love it when things are completely overrun with players (assuming I don't have to compete for mobs).
Where is this mythical game that has group content at all stages of the game? Because I can't find one. All modern MMO's are about soloing for a large section, then a group instance at the end. Then move on to the next section and do exactly the same. Let's take The Secret World as an example, you enter Kingsmouth, you solo all the way through Kingsmouth, then at the end of Kingsmouth there's the Polaris group instance. The only group content up until that point. Then you move on to the Savage Coast, solo all the Savage Coast, then group for Hell Fallen instance at the end.
If modern MMO's had group content throughout the whole game - and I'm not talking about grouping up for the sake of grouping up, I mean actual challenging content that needed a group to get through it - I'd be as happy as a pig in s**t. Unfortunately, they don't.
Well in WOW after level 15 you can purely group (in group content, obviously) all the way to the very end of endgame. Does WOW still qualify as a modern MMORPG?
A couple of my characters did it, and I had a ton of fun (especially because they were tanks which resulted in no queue time, and the ability to dynamically control the difficulty of the dungeon based on how many mobs I pulled at once. The more mobs I pulled, the greater the difficulty, and the faster the rewards.)
Overall I do agree with you that we need to see more group-focused games. WOW's group play being so far ahead of any other MMORPG I've tried is part of why I've stuck with it and lost interest in those other games. We need a new CoX.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by nerovipus32 If people weren't crucial then i'd be playing single player games wouldn't I. Silly question really.
You can always play a MMO like a SP game. There is no reason force yourself to play with others just because it is a mmo.
Who said anything about forcing Nari?
Playing with other people is just a better way to enjoy an MMO. So you are saying that because we can play them as if they are single player, then we should?? Go ahead if you want to, but what is wrong with enjoying the game with other people?
Ding!!! Theres the bell Nari, time that you move on to your next single player experience.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by nerovipus32 If people weren't crucial then i'd be playing single player games wouldn't I. Silly question really.
You can always play a MMO like a SP game. There is no reason force yourself to play with others just because it is a mmo.
Who said anything about forcing Nari?
Playing with other people is just a better way to enjoy an MMO. So you are saying that because we can play them as if they are single player, then we should?? Go ahead if you want to, but what is wrong with enjoying the game with other people?
Ding!!! Theres the bell Nari, time that you move on to your next single player experience.
No. I am saying if you don't like other people, play a MMO as a SP. I am saying it is silly to dismiss a MMO just because a player don't like others.
And who says what is a better way to enjoy a MMO? I enjoy STO much better when i ignore everyone and play the missions solo. I don't see why i have to be forced to play with others just because it is a MMO.
Originally posted by Boneserino You aren't forced. Group content is for groups. Therefore it is not for you as you are not a group. That is a "choice" Nari.
Great. So you agree you don't have to group to enjoy MMO and the solo choice is a good thing?
Of course!! Solo away if that is your style. I do it often too. Mainly because it is hard to find that right group of people that you want to play with. But its definitely worth looking for them and if you find a good group, it opens up a whole lot of extra fun! I mean you can play golf solo in real life too but what is the point? Much more fun to have someone to compete with, to share the good shots and bad shots and just to generally joke around and have fun with.
Its the same with MMO's.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Comments
If you like the setting and the combat mechanics of a MMO, there is no reason why you shouldn't play MMO as a SP game.
Whether the game is a MMO or not, is irrelevant.
I like Star Trek. I like STO ship combat. I don't see another Sp game in which i can drive a refitted constitution class star ship. So i play STO .. and sometimes like a SP game. I don't play it for its MMO-ness, i play it for its setting and mechanics.
Why shouldn't i if that is fun to me?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I want to add to the point. Aside from some people on this forum, i doubt if many players even care if a game is a proper MMO. Other people is not critical to the long term fun of games. Many play Diablo 2 solo for years. Surely D2 may not be a MMO .. but most don't care about that distinction.
Heck, people can play MMOs like SP games if they want to, can they not?
Where is this mythical game that has group content at all stages of the game? Because I can't find one. All modern MMO's are about soloing for a large section, then a group instance at the end. Then move on to the next section and do exactly the same. Let's take The Secret World as an example, you enter Kingsmouth, you solo all the way through Kingsmouth, then at the end of Kingsmouth there's the Polaris group instance. The only group content up until that point. Then you move on to the Savage Coast, solo all the Savage Coast, then group for Hell Fallen instance at the end.
If modern MMO's had group content throughout the whole game - and I'm not talking about grouping up for the sake of grouping up, I mean actual challenging content that needed a group to get through it - I'd be as happy as a pig in s**t. Unfortunately, they don't.
Other people are not critical to the fun of games, you can see that in single player games, however, they are critical to the life of a game. Modern MMO's can be played like single player games, but if that's all people are playing them for then that too affects the life of the game. It can be seen in single player games - people buy them, play them, complete them, throw them in the cupboard and maybe go back to them again sometime in the future. More often than not, they remain gathering dust in the cupboard.
MMO's rely on a steady income to keep them operational. If the games are played as single player games and designed as such, it gives people no reason to stay, so the amount of players drop, the income drops for the company, less players mean less options for those who have decided to stay and work on the group content. Eventually you see server merges, free trials and the inevitable change to F2P.
This is one of the things that really confuses me about modern MMO development. Why are they making single player games with multiplayer elements? Games designed with multiplayer as the focus last for years - for MMO's look at EverQuest, still going strong and still releasing expansions, for other games look at Counterstrike which people are still playing to this day, or Starcraft, especially in the Asian market.
Single player games are meant to be consumed and discarded, they're little chunks of fun to fill our time. MMO developers really need to realise this fact, or they're just going to keep facing failure after failure.
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
The vast majority of gamers move on to new games constantly. Take Half-Life. I loved the game, but I haven't played it in a long time. No, correction, I replayed it when they did the Black Mesa fan version, but for most old games, I never replay them. It's one and done. I've got so many games, I could never hope to play through them more than once, twice at the outside. So why do you think that MMOs ought to be any different? Play them until you get tired of them, then go do something else!
MMOs are just games, like anything else. I think you have unrealistic expectation of them.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
And i don't think we need to worry about game companies. They understand churn MUCH better than we do and they analyze that data day in and day out.
Even WOW ... many players quit before reaching max level.
I am quite sure they don't expect everyone to stick around, and they don't need everyone to stick around to make money.
While this was not an official and technically representative poll, it does show that 70% of voters find the social aspect a very important, if not crucial, element of MMO gameplay.
A smart game will be one that fosters interrelationships that these voters value so highly.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Yet games can't do a damn thing about it. You cannot force people who have nothing in common to enjoy working together and be social together. The MMO community is fundamentally different than it was back in the days of UO and EQ. It will never, ever, ever go back to the way it was back then.
Stop living in a fantasy world and deal with the reality as it actually is.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
this.
Currently bored with MMO's.
People are critical to my game play in this sense:
-They buy the items I craft
- They are present to fight me .
-They are present to help answer questions I might have
-They are there to lend a helping hand on a quest I simply cannot do alone.
Well in WOW after level 15 you can purely group (in group content, obviously) all the way to the very end of endgame. Does WOW still qualify as a modern MMORPG?
A couple of my characters did it, and I had a ton of fun (especially because they were tanks which resulted in no queue time, and the ability to dynamically control the difficulty of the dungeon based on how many mobs I pulled at once. The more mobs I pulled, the greater the difficulty, and the faster the rewards.)
Overall I do agree with you that we need to see more group-focused games. WOW's group play being so far ahead of any other MMORPG I've tried is part of why I've stuck with it and lost interest in those other games. We need a new CoX.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You can always play a MMO like a SP game. There is no reason force yourself to play with others just because it is a mmo.
Who said anything about forcing Nari?
Playing with other people is just a better way to enjoy an MMO. So you are saying that because we can play them as if they are single player, then we should?? Go ahead if you want to, but what is wrong with enjoying the game with other people?
Ding!!! Theres the bell Nari, time that you move on to your next single player experience.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
No. I am saying if you don't like other people, play a MMO as a SP. I am saying it is silly to dismiss a MMO just because a player don't like others.
And who says what is a better way to enjoy a MMO? I enjoy STO much better when i ignore everyone and play the missions solo. I don't see why i have to be forced to play with others just because it is a MMO.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Great. So you agree you don't have to group to enjoy MMO and the solo choice is a good thing?
Of course!! Solo away if that is your style. I do it often too. Mainly because it is hard to find that right group of people that you want to play with. But its definitely worth looking for them and if you find a good group, it opens up a whole lot of extra fun! I mean you can play golf solo in real life too but what is the point? Much more fun to have someone to compete with, to share the good shots and bad shots and just to generally joke around and have fun with.
Its the same with MMO's.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!