Underlying Issue -The main cause of resentment seems to be bad game designs, with no risk of punishment for the griefer. In the scenarios given people are getting killed/camped with no recourse, and the camper has no fear of punishment. Who would want that? Come on devs you can do better!
How surprising -the underlying issue turns out to be exactly what bcbully already posted in ten different threads before he made this one to find out. This conclusion comes as a result of noone pointing at "bad design" as to why they "hate PvP". A large number of responders start their post with "I do NOT hate PvP, I just like to chose when," which is pretty much how most MMOs are designed.
Confirmation bias is a wonderful thing.
You know, (maybe not) I was conscious of confirmation bias when I wrote that. I know you have not read the thread, there's a lot here.
The underlying issue comes from my observation. Bad game design has allowed or even encourage (by not discouraging) these terrible situations many posters have experienced. The ganker disrupting and sometimes insulting without any risk of punishment or retribution. Thus these anti-social people are free to wreck havoc.
In my opinion this is bad game design. When the ganker stands to lose more than what he gains from this type behavior, the behavior will cease, if not entirely, enough to create civility. The bad behavior becomes the outlier as opposed to the norm. The reason being, it just doesn't make sense.
The majority of people who have posted here have not experienced anything else. I understand their perspective.
If you have a chance to read the thread as I have, you should. It's a very good read.
It really depends on the game for me. But the most discouraging aspect is factional or class based imbalances which lead to a really once sided experience. If you are constantly losing or experiencing an unacceptable win/loss ratio (which is really a subjective thing), you are not going to be earning those factional rewards which the opposition is winning. As time goes on, those class/factional imbalances widen do to uneven perks and rewards earned by the opposition and you lose even more. Meanwhile, the rewards you sought take longer and longer, and seem unattainable and you lose interest or incentive.
Couple this with the fact that there are some out there that like to rub salt into the wound when you are already having a discouraging experience, and there is little reason to return for more punishment. I am there to have fun also. I'm not there to entertain you by getting stomped and then tea bagged, lol. That's great entertainment for a certain subset of player, but the others it can be an unnecessary impediment to enjoyment as people tend to do what gives them some kind of enjoyment and fulfillment. Based on that fact, with other avenues for advancement, it's much easier to go in another direction, ie pve, crafting, or rp, which provides some kind of reward or enjoyment.
Some people say...faction imbalance....what faction imbalance...the Evil faction has better players than the Good faction. In most cases, they are either expressing some kind of factional pride, or have become wrapped up in the illusion that there is actually something different from one person who chooses one faction over another. There are no horde or alliance players, for example: there are only players, utilizing their classes, abilities, armor, weapons and perks.
The final imbalance lies with hardcore versus casual. A hardcore player has a much deeper understanding and therefore a greater edge over a casual. That's not to say that is necessarily wrong, but hardcore players are much fewer than casual, and the difficulty for casuals to thrive in an environment against someone using food/drink/potion/scroll/trinket/armor bonus buffs with macros and coordinating their fight over voice with strategy and 100+ hours of practice. The gulf between hardcore and casual can be extreme and once sided, and yet players are too often lumped together based on level or class as opposed to experience.
These are just some of the problems I have noted. Having said that, have I played mmos and enjoyed pvp. Hell yeah! But those games are rare gems, and while they also were flawed and imperfect, I still found those experiences rewarding. In fact, most of my most cherished mmo moments involve pvp.
You know (maybe not) I'm conscious of confirmation bias. I know you have not read the thread, there's a lot here.
The underlying issue comes from my observation. Bad game design has allowed or even encourage (by not discouraging) these terrible situations many poster have experienced in this thread. The ganker disrupting and sometimes insulting without any risk of punishment or retribution. Thus these anti-social people are free to wreck havoc.
In my opinion this is bad game design. When the ganker stands to lose more than what he gains from this type behavior, the behavior will cease, if not entirely, enough to create civility. The bad behavior becomes the outlier as opposed to the norm, because it just doesn't make since.
The majority of people who have posted here have not experienced anything else. I understand their perspective.
If you have a chance to read the thread as I have, you should. It's a very good read.
You are reading what you want to read.
I PvPed from the beginning in open world PvP games. I played UO pre trammel, I played a ton of DAoC, I even played EQ when they tried out the RvR servers.
I'm not currently against open world PvP because of being ganked (sure I've been ganked, and I've ganked, and I've had amazing fun and exciting battles of all kinds). It is because if I have limited play time I want to log in to do WHAT I WANT TO DO. Not have other players able to dictate what I can do by killing people running into a given quest or area. It has nothing to do with ganking and has everything to do with wanting to do what I want when I want.
That is the core that makes up most people who don't want or enjoy open world PvP. Thinking it is because there is a lack of punishment for ganking or griefing is completely missing the entire point. Even with such punishments a person can still get in the way of what someone else wants to do with their hour of playtime.
That is why battlegrounds are a far more popular option than open world PvP. It allows people to PvP when that is what they want to do with their time and not PvP when they want to do PvE with their time. It will always be the most popular option because it works for the most people.
I just think my definition of PvP may differ from others. Killing lowbies on your max level toon is not PvP, Camping lowbies is not PvP, standing out side safe zones to kill new players is not PvP. And that is what seems to happen more than anything in open world PvP games.
Everyone the same level fighting, group v group, raid v raid, ect is my definition of PvP. Pretty much everyone on basically equal terms and level is the PvP I enjoy. If I win/ lose its not because the guy was 10 levels above me and 1 shotted me in the open world. Its because I was out played or out played my opponent.
Some people may enjoy playing in a griefer rich environment. I personally do not and neither do many others. There are games that cater to each crowd so there should be something out there everyone can enjoy.
I just prefer PVE that's all. I'm not sure why "I just don't like it" is not reason enough. I don't hate PVP it's just not what I enjoy doing so I will not play a game with forced PVP.
The only way to truely enjoy both PVP and PVE is to keep them as far away from eachother as possible. You can never prevent or disuade a pvper to not gank or harass lower level players. I think when you start implementing restrictions on the pvp community they will start to complain that its not open pvp and its carebearish at best. You generally cannot help one side without hurting the other, which is why I feel different servers are better in the long run.
You know (maybe not) I'm conscious of confirmation bias. I know you have not read the thread, there's a lot here.
The underlying issue comes from my observation. Bad game design has allowed or even encourage (by not discouraging) these terrible situations many poster have experienced in this thread. The ganker disrupting and sometimes insulting without any risk of punishment or retribution. Thus these anti-social people are free to wreck havoc.
In my opinion this is bad game design. When the ganker stands to lose more than what he gains from this type behavior, the behavior will cease, if not entirely, enough to create civility. The bad behavior becomes the outlier as opposed to the norm, because it just doesn't make since.
The majority of people who have posted here have not experienced anything else. I understand their perspective.
If you have a chance to read the thread as I have, you should. It's a very good read.
You are reading what you want to read.
I PvPed from the beginning in open world PvP games. I played UO pre trammel, I played a ton of DAoC, I even played EQ when they tried out the RvR servers.
I'm not currently against open world PvP because of being ganked (sure I've been ganked, and I've ganked, and I've had amazing fun and exciting battles of all kinds). It is because if I have limited play time I want to log in to do WHAT I WANT TO DO. Not have other players able to dictate what I can do by killing people running into a given quest or area. It has nothing to do with ganking and has everything to do with wanting to do what I want when I want.
That is the core that makes up most people who don't want or enjoy open world PvP. Thinking it is because there is a lack of punishment for ganking or griefing is completely missing the entire point. Even with such punishments a person can still get in the way of what someone else wants to do with their hour of playtime.
That is why battlegrounds are a far more popular option than open world PvP. It allows people to PvP when that is what they want to do with their time and not PvP when they want to do PvE with their time. It will always be the most popular option because it works for the most people.
I've read this many times in this thread. That's why it's listed under reasons. You must not have read that
Due to the games made over the last 8 years not having punishment or any risk at all to the ganker, it happens far to often, and is far to disruptive.
If you are of the mindset that once is too many, or that any amount of time is too much, then we are at an impasse. We will have to agree to disagree.
First i will say i am a long standing pvpr`longer than a MMORPG player.
You need to narrow the question down to MMORPG pvp.
Reason i don`t like it in mmorpg`s,is it is done REALLY bad,like on a scale of 1-10 a TWO !.
Criteria..
map layout in MMORPG`s there is basically zero map layout designed for pvp,i do mean ZERO.
objects for both offense and defense
Z-Axis fighting
weapon variety=short,mid range and long range,splash and AOE and multi functional.
Balance so hard almost impossible to do in a RPG.,this can still be pulled off using a rock paper scissors but that again limits the pvp and your choices of fight.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Shmackpappy I just prefer PVE that's all. I'm not sure why "I just don't like it" is not reason enough. I don't hate PVP it's just not what I enjoy doing so I will not play a game with forced PVP.
I understand you just don't like pvp. I asked why.
As I have said earlier. There has never been an mmorpg that has forced you to pvp, and no player has ever been forced to pvp. You have always had choice.
I'm a big PVP fan, but the fact that the OP doesn't know why people don't like it suggests an overwhelming naivite. It isn't that people don't like playing against other players when they choose to do so, it is that they don't like being jumped repeatedly while simply going about their business or high levels killing lowbies so they can get their jollies. Throw in people that regularly grief and lowbie gank for most of the day because they aren't good enough to play against players their own level and you have a recipe for one player to be able to ruin the fun of another.
I have always loved the thrill of questing and running into an enemy player my level, but even I am amazed that virtually no MMO stops high level players from ganking players that are much lower level. There are easy solutions to prevent PVP mechanics from being abused, but they are rarely employed.
Currently playing: Rift Played: SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot World of Warcraft, AoC
Originally posted by Shmackpappy I just prefer PVE that's all. I'm not sure why "I just don't like it" is not reason enough. I don't hate PVP it's just not what I enjoy doing so I will not play a game with forced PVP.
I understand you just don't like pvp. I asked why.
As I have said earlier. There has never been an mmorpg that has forced you to pvp, and no player has ever been forced to pvp. You have always had choice.
You know (maybe not) I'm conscious of confirmation bias. I know you have not read the thread, there's a lot here.
The underlying issue comes from my observation. Bad game design has allowed or even encourage (by not discouraging) these terrible situations many poster have experienced in this thread. The ganker disrupting and sometimes insulting without any risk of punishment or retribution. Thus these anti-social people are free to wreck havoc.
In my opinion this is bad game design. When the ganker stands to lose more than what he gains from this type behavior, the behavior will cease, if not entirely, enough to create civility. The bad behavior becomes the outlier as opposed to the norm, because it just doesn't make since.
The majority of people who have posted here have not experienced anything else. I understand their perspective.
If you have a chance to read the thread as I have, you should. It's a very good read.
You are reading what you want to read.
I PvPed from the beginning in open world PvP games. I played UO pre trammel, I played a ton of DAoC, I even played EQ when they tried out the RvR servers.
I'm not currently against open world PvP because of being ganked (sure I've been ganked, and I've ganked, and I've had amazing fun and exciting battles of all kinds). It is because if I have limited play time I want to log in to do WHAT I WANT TO DO. Not have other players able to dictate what I can do by killing people running into a given quest or area. It has nothing to do with ganking and has everything to do with wanting to do what I want when I want.
That is the core that makes up most people who don't want or enjoy open world PvP. Thinking it is because there is a lack of punishment for ganking or griefing is completely missing the entire point. Even with such punishments a person can still get in the way of what someone else wants to do with their hour of playtime.
That is why battlegrounds are a far more popular option than open world PvP. It allows people to PvP when that is what they want to do with their time and not PvP when they want to do PvE with their time. It will always be the most popular option because it works for the most people.
I've read this many times in this thread. That's why it's listed under reasons. You must not have read that
Due to the games made over the last 8 years not having punishment or any risk at all to the ganker, it happens far to often, and is far to disruptive.
If you are of the mindset that once is too many, or that any amount of time is too much, then we are at an impasse. We will have to agree to disagree.
Just like everyone else in this thread. You haven't convinced anyone to start liking open world PvP. So I guess you have to agree to disagree with 90% of the MMORPG playerbase because the majority don't want it and never will.
Yes, if I have limited playtime and a player can ever once kill me while I'm trying to do what I want to do, it is too much. In a busy life with a full time job, a house, a spouse, family, having the hour or two you get to play in a week disrupted by someone who wants the thrill of killing someone who doesn't even care to fight back is not an enriching experience.
My question for you is why do you feel the need to try to convince others that their reasons aren't good enough or that they are in someway wrong or lesser as a person for not liking what you like? There are games like Darkfall for you. There are servers (although mostly dead because so few like the style of play) in many MMOs that offer what you're looking for. Why do you feel the need to try to go on a crusade and get more people to like it (which will never ever happen)?
Originally posted by rochrist Because it's a stomping ground for obnoxious bro-holes who equate PVP skill with penis size. Thanks, but not thanks.
It ain't the meat, it's the motion...oh, never mind,
Even though I love PvP and matching wits against other humans, there are times when I don't want to pay that much attention to what I'm doing. I feel the same way about raids and dungeon runs. That's why I prefer PvP in designated parts of the open world (I hate scenario E-sport PvP) to do it...like in DAoC, GW2, ESO, etc. If I go to the PvP area it's because I'm ready, willing and able. When I'm solo questing I'm often doing it while I watch TV, talk to friends and family, whatever... some MMO activities can be done that way but PvP isn't one of them if you're going to do it well.
Yes there are obnoxious kiddies who play MMOs and can annoy us in all kinds of ways--not just PvP: there's the guy who enjoys wiping a party on purpose in PvE dungeons, the resource thief who will grab the node while you fight off the mobs guarding it, those who enjoy griefing (in all kinds of ways...remember trains?) and do so to get their jollies, and we all know the general chat channel trolls.
Some use PvP as a way to do it but PvE is not free from them either.
So whenever I hear someone say that they hate PvP because of the type of people who do it, with all due respect, I have to call bullshit. There's some other reason why you don't like it that you'd rather not say. The fact that there are obnoxious idiots who do it just doesn't cut it....those same idiots are everywhere in any massive community.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I understand you just don't like pvp. I asked why.
At this point you may be starting to drown your "why" question with your forum-PvP.
Back on page one, I answered "war itself is the enemy". People reading this discussion may worry that it is generating more conflict than understanding - that the question itself has started to be asked aggressively. Some may stop posting entirely. Some may post, but no longer engage the "why" question itself, instead switching to discussing how to most quickly end the source conflict (the "lets agree to disagree" escape). That's what I believe you saw in the post you were responding to.
I'm a big PVP fan, but the fact that the OP doesn't know why people don't like it suggests an overwhelming naivite. It isn't that people don't like playing against other players when they choose to do so, it is that they don't like being jumped repeatedly while simply going about their business or high levels killing lowbies so they can get their jollies. Throw in people that regularly grief and lowbie gank for most of the day because they aren't good enough to play against players their own level and you have a recipe for one player to be able to ruin the fun of another.
I have always loved the thrill of questing and running into an enemy player my level, but even I am amazed that virtually no MMO stops high level players from ganking players that are much lower level. There are easy solutions to prevent PVP mechanics from being abused, but they are rarely employed.
Would not being able to attack a player 5+ levels below your own level unless attacked first be a solution? 5 levels can mean a lot in stats and gear if it's that type of game.
I PvPed from the beginning in open world PvP games. I played UO pre trammel, I played a ton of DAoC, I even played EQ when they tried out the RvR servers.
I'm not currently against open world PvP because of being ganked (sure I've been ganked, and I've ganked, and I've had amazing fun and exciting battles of all kinds). It is because if I have limited play time I want to log in to do WHAT I WANT TO DO. Not have other players able to dictate what I can do by killing people running into a given quest or area. It has nothing to do with ganking and has everything to do with wanting to do what I want when I want.
That is the core that makes up most people who don't want or enjoy open world PvP. Thinking it is because there is a lack of punishment for ganking or griefing is completely missing the entire point. Even with such punishments a person can still get in the way of what someone else wants to do with their hour of playtime.
That is why battlegrounds are a far more popular option than open world PvP. It allows people to PvP when that is what they want to do with their time and not PvP when they want to do PvE with their time. It will always be the most popular option because it works for the most people.
I've read this many times in this thread. That's why it's listed under reasons. You must not have read that
Due to the games made over the last 8 years not having punishment or any risk at all to the ganker, it happens far to often, and is far to disruptive.
If you are of the mindset that once is too many, or that any amount of time is too much, then we are at an impasse. We will have to agree to disagree.
I think you are still missing the point We, the ones who don't like PvP cannot care less if the attacker is punished or not. It is NOT punishment I want. I want him NOT TO BE ABLE to attack me. NEVER, not even once, if I don't agree with it. That is the only design element I can accept. Otherwise the game is unplayable for me.
Just an example which perhaps can make you understand:
let's say there is a game where another player can force you to sit for 2 mins and sing along with him. You're playing your game, enjoying whatever you're doing, perhaps killing a great monster with your friends when a player comes to you,clicks a button and bumm...you are out of action, you are sitting on the ground singing ! Wouldn't that be extremely annoying ? You aren't paying for a game to be forced to do stupid, boring activities ! How that other player dare to make you content for himself ! He can explain that he doesn't do it often, he can try to convince you that singing together is the best part of the game, that won't make you any happier. If you don't want to sing, you won't enjoy it. Simple as that.
I gave you a reason why I don't like to PvP. Here are some reasons why I don't like non-consensual PvP games:
1. I don't PvP because killing others make me feel bad.
2. I hate when I'm disturbed in my free time by players who think I should entertain them. No, I'm not willing to entertain them. I may be selfish, but I pay for the game just as much as they do, so leave me alone.
3. I hate a significant part of the PvP community. These players are the most obnoxious ones I've ever met, they spread lies about others, not only in game but even on forum, they stir up conflicts with no reason and even proud of that. They call that metagame, and that's something that makes me want to throw up.
Reading through this thread proved me that I'm not the only one who feels this way. So why don't you just copy my reasons to your OP instead of the wrong conclusions you seemed to get out of our posts ?
Originally posted by Shmackpappy I just prefer PVE that's all. I'm not sure why "I just don't like it" is not reason enough. I don't hate PVP it's just not what I enjoy doing so I will not play a game with forced PVP.
I understand you just don't like pvp. I asked why.
As I have said earlier. There has never been an mmorpg that has forced you to pvp, and no player has ever been forced to pvp. You have always had choice.
Eve Online says "Hi". PvP was always around the corner, no matter where you were, whether you liked it or not. Even Jita can be fatal.
A lot of people like PvP that don't like forced PvP. GW2 segregates the PvP from the PvE completely, and craploads of people enjoy that immensely. When I want to PvP I can go to WvW or structured PvP and have my fill. I can choose balanced PvP or chaotically delivered PvP, my choice. I can also do max level content without the specter of unwanted PvP hiding behind the next tree if I wish. Another choice. It's all about choices. Hell, give people the choice of fully optional PvP that in no way affects their PvE and you'll turn a lot of folks that "hated" PvP before into parts of the crazed mobs running around the PvP zones simply because, knowing it's a choice, they'll be more likely to give it a try.
Originally posted by free2play Nobody hates PvP. People don't like forced PvP. It's a shoddy way to throttle weak PvE content. Having to stop and entertain some jughead when all you logged in to do was chop some trees or farm some hides.
Why not beat the guy (or lose) and go about your business. You win some you lose some. YOu can even run, I'm sure there is another node right around the corner. Is it that big of a deal?
Because if you die, he takes your axe and you go back to bind point? Or because you only have 30 minutes to play and you need enough wood to finish the house you're working on and you don't want to screw around with some epeener for 5 minutes.
You know how when you go to a movie, and the people in front of you are talking and standing up constantly and and obstructing your view? Why does it bother you? Because they are interfering with your enjoyment of the movie. Same thing for non-consensual PVP.
I don't hate PvP, what I hate to the typical crowd it attracts.
EVE is a prime example. The leader of goon squad or whatever publicly told people to antagonize a player to push him to commit suicide. This is pathetic and despicable behavior but that is the nature of people who play PvP. And Smeldy's association with that group is a major negative mark in my book. How someone, especially in his postion, would tolerate that group after that is beyond me. If what people say is true about him being part of goon. Both in EVE and DF:UW people grief players who are struggling early on to learn the game, while it might be true to a certain extent that this behavior does not reflect the PvP community as a whole it does reflect a significant portion of the community.
I'm all for PvP and do think that an increased risk should equate to an increase reward which is the essence of EVE. However there should be designated areas of PvP and certain paths that those who do not want it have that option to pursue and not have to be constantly on the lookout to the point of paranoia. Which is the case of EVE and that it completely sucks the fun out of the game for some or many.
I strongly believe in that a major pillar for any game should be PvP but it should not be the only pillar and not forced upon the whole community.
If SOE developers a system when it takes all aspects of the community to work together while not forcing different playstyles onto people then I'd be all for it.
It's not like you die IRL. It's a game sometimes you win sometimes you lose. Is it because -
You lose a lot?
You can't get better?
It's scary?
To much adrenalin?
It makes you angry?
PvP'rs are mean?
Outside of "I just don't like it" which is not an explanation, this is what I ask myself when I hear someone say "I wish there was no pvp"
I mean to me PVP is the pinnacle off multiplayer gaming. You test your skills against mine. We use what we found in the world and see if it works.
Why, please tell me. Maybe developers have done studies and stuff, but I haven't, I really don't get it.
Update - Top reasons
Lack of time
Mean player/ Nasty attitudes
Not a competitive person
OBSERVATION - Every scenario given by those against PvP involves being the person that gets killed. Check it out for yourself.
There's some really good stuff in here Thank you to those who are giving their time.
edit- they red text is not meant to demean. It's an observation, a true observation. If we reach the heart of the problem maybe it can be fixed. I made the observation text smaller and changed it back to white from red, for sake of civility.
Underlying Issue -The main cause of resentment seems to be bad game designs, with no risk of punishment for the griefer. In the scenarios given people are getting killed/camped with no recourse, and the camper has no fear of punishment. Who would want that? Come on devs you can do better!
I love PvP. I hate Ganking, camping or any of the other BS that takes place in open and forced PvP scenarios. A semi-even playing field where people with similar skills/qualifications/experience can compete, sure. Or even an open place where I know going in I am open to whatever comes at me I am good with.
But when I am half afk drinking coffee, going over the morning news, I am not interested in some 'leetkid' camping my corps, b/c S/he is 40 levels over me and there is nothing I can do about it. That isn't pvp imo that is akin to cyber bullying being honest.
Anyway, as usual just my opinions, and I am sure they aren't popular.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Comments
You know, (maybe not) I was conscious of confirmation bias when I wrote that. I know you have not read the thread, there's a lot here.
The underlying issue comes from my observation. Bad game design has allowed or even encourage (by not discouraging) these terrible situations many posters have experienced. The ganker disrupting and sometimes insulting without any risk of punishment or retribution. Thus these anti-social people are free to wreck havoc.
In my opinion this is bad game design. When the ganker stands to lose more than what he gains from this type behavior, the behavior will cease, if not entirely, enough to create civility. The bad behavior becomes the outlier as opposed to the norm. The reason being, it just doesn't make sense.
The majority of people who have posted here have not experienced anything else. I understand their perspective.
If you have a chance to read the thread as I have, you should. It's a very good read.
It really depends on the game for me. But the most discouraging aspect is factional or class based imbalances which lead to a really once sided experience. If you are constantly losing or experiencing an unacceptable win/loss ratio (which is really a subjective thing), you are not going to be earning those factional rewards which the opposition is winning. As time goes on, those class/factional imbalances widen do to uneven perks and rewards earned by the opposition and you lose even more. Meanwhile, the rewards you sought take longer and longer, and seem unattainable and you lose interest or incentive.
Couple this with the fact that there are some out there that like to rub salt into the wound when you are already having a discouraging experience, and there is little reason to return for more punishment. I am there to have fun also. I'm not there to entertain you by getting stomped and then tea bagged, lol. That's great entertainment for a certain subset of player, but the others it can be an unnecessary impediment to enjoyment as people tend to do what gives them some kind of enjoyment and fulfillment. Based on that fact, with other avenues for advancement, it's much easier to go in another direction, ie pve, crafting, or rp, which provides some kind of reward or enjoyment.
Some people say...faction imbalance....what faction imbalance...the Evil faction has better players than the Good faction. In most cases, they are either expressing some kind of factional pride, or have become wrapped up in the illusion that there is actually something different from one person who chooses one faction over another. There are no horde or alliance players, for example: there are only players, utilizing their classes, abilities, armor, weapons and perks.
The final imbalance lies with hardcore versus casual. A hardcore player has a much deeper understanding and therefore a greater edge over a casual. That's not to say that is necessarily wrong, but hardcore players are much fewer than casual, and the difficulty for casuals to thrive in an environment against someone using food/drink/potion/scroll/trinket/armor bonus buffs with macros and coordinating their fight over voice with strategy and 100+ hours of practice. The gulf between hardcore and casual can be extreme and once sided, and yet players are too often lumped together based on level or class as opposed to experience.
These are just some of the problems I have noted. Having said that, have I played mmos and enjoyed pvp. Hell yeah! But those games are rare gems, and while they also were flawed and imperfect, I still found those experiences rewarding. In fact, most of my most cherished mmo moments involve pvp.
You are reading what you want to read.
I PvPed from the beginning in open world PvP games. I played UO pre trammel, I played a ton of DAoC, I even played EQ when they tried out the RvR servers.
I'm not currently against open world PvP because of being ganked (sure I've been ganked, and I've ganked, and I've had amazing fun and exciting battles of all kinds). It is because if I have limited play time I want to log in to do WHAT I WANT TO DO. Not have other players able to dictate what I can do by killing people running into a given quest or area. It has nothing to do with ganking and has everything to do with wanting to do what I want when I want.
That is the core that makes up most people who don't want or enjoy open world PvP. Thinking it is because there is a lack of punishment for ganking or griefing is completely missing the entire point. Even with such punishments a person can still get in the way of what someone else wants to do with their hour of playtime.
That is why battlegrounds are a far more popular option than open world PvP. It allows people to PvP when that is what they want to do with their time and not PvP when they want to do PvE with their time. It will always be the most popular option because it works for the most people.
I actually enjoy PvP .
I just think my definition of PvP may differ from others. Killing lowbies on your max level toon is not PvP, Camping lowbies is not PvP, standing out side safe zones to kill new players is not PvP. And that is what seems to happen more than anything in open world PvP games.
Everyone the same level fighting, group v group, raid v raid, ect is my definition of PvP. Pretty much everyone on basically equal terms and level is the PvP I enjoy. If I win/ lose its not because the guy was 10 levels above me and 1 shotted me in the open world. Its because I was out played or out played my opponent.
Some people may enjoy playing in a griefer rich environment. I personally do not and neither do many others. There are games that cater to each crowd so there should be something out there everyone can enjoy.
I've read this many times in this thread. That's why it's listed under reasons. You must not have read that
Due to the games made over the last 8 years not having punishment or any risk at all to the ganker, it happens far to often, and is far to disruptive.
If you are of the mindset that once is too many, or that any amount of time is too much, then we are at an impasse. We will have to agree to disagree.
And let's not forget PvP servers too, I've had many alts on various game's PvP server.
It can be alot of fun if I WISH to PvP one day. I sometimes do.
But most days I don't. PvE / PvP servers means I can chose, and I think it is an excellent design.
I hate pvp because My name is Indigo Omnifish and pvp killed my father
Now, prepare to die!!!
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
First i will say i am a long standing pvpr`longer than a MMORPG player.
You need to narrow the question down to MMORPG pvp.
Reason i don`t like it in mmorpg`s,is it is done REALLY bad,like on a scale of 1-10 a TWO !.
Criteria..
map layout in MMORPG`s there is basically zero map layout designed for pvp,i do mean ZERO.
objects for both offense and defense
Z-Axis fighting
weapon variety=short,mid range and long range,splash and AOE and multi functional.
Balance so hard almost impossible to do in a RPG.,this can still be pulled off using a rock paper scissors but that again limits the pvp and your choices of fight.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I understand you just don't like pvp. I asked why.
As I have said earlier. There has never been an mmorpg that has forced you to pvp, and no player has ever been forced to pvp. You have always had choice.
I'm a big PVP fan, but the fact that the OP doesn't know why people don't like it suggests an overwhelming naivite. It isn't that people don't like playing against other players when they choose to do so, it is that they don't like being jumped repeatedly while simply going about their business or high levels killing lowbies so they can get their jollies. Throw in people that regularly grief and lowbie gank for most of the day because they aren't good enough to play against players their own level and you have a recipe for one player to be able to ruin the fun of another.
I have always loved the thrill of questing and running into an enemy player my level, but even I am amazed that virtually no MMO stops high level players from ganking players that are much lower level. There are easy solutions to prevent PVP mechanics from being abused, but they are rarely employed.
Currently playing:
Rift
Played:
SWToR, Aion,EQ, Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft, AoC
The choice you imply is to not play?
Just like everyone else in this thread. You haven't convinced anyone to start liking open world PvP. So I guess you have to agree to disagree with 90% of the MMORPG playerbase because the majority don't want it and never will.
Yes, if I have limited playtime and a player can ever once kill me while I'm trying to do what I want to do, it is too much. In a busy life with a full time job, a house, a spouse, family, having the hour or two you get to play in a week disrupted by someone who wants the thrill of killing someone who doesn't even care to fight back is not an enriching experience.
My question for you is why do you feel the need to try to convince others that their reasons aren't good enough or that they are in someway wrong or lesser as a person for not liking what you like? There are games like Darkfall for you. There are servers (although mostly dead because so few like the style of play) in many MMOs that offer what you're looking for. Why do you feel the need to try to go on a crusade and get more people to like it (which will never ever happen)?
To be fair, that arrogance and eliteism flourishes in PvE too.
"LFG Dark Scary Place 4/6 Need XP, Skill, and outgear the dungeon 10/1. No nubs, please."
It ain't the meat, it's the motion...oh, never mind,
Even though I love PvP and matching wits against other humans, there are times when I don't want to pay that much attention to what I'm doing. I feel the same way about raids and dungeon runs. That's why I prefer PvP in designated parts of the open world (I hate scenario E-sport PvP) to do it...like in DAoC, GW2, ESO, etc. If I go to the PvP area it's because I'm ready, willing and able. When I'm solo questing I'm often doing it while I watch TV, talk to friends and family, whatever... some MMO activities can be done that way but PvP isn't one of them if you're going to do it well.
Yes there are obnoxious kiddies who play MMOs and can annoy us in all kinds of ways--not just PvP: there's the guy who enjoys wiping a party on purpose in PvE dungeons, the resource thief who will grab the node while you fight off the mobs guarding it, those who enjoy griefing (in all kinds of ways...remember trains?) and do so to get their jollies, and we all know the general chat channel trolls.
Some use PvP as a way to do it but PvE is not free from them either.
So whenever I hear someone say that they hate PvP because of the type of people who do it, with all due respect, I have to call bullshit. There's some other reason why you don't like it that you'd rather not say. The fact that there are obnoxious idiots who do it just doesn't cut it....those same idiots are everywhere in any massive community.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
At this point you may be starting to drown your "why" question with your forum-PvP.
Back on page one, I answered "war itself is the enemy". People reading this discussion may worry that it is generating more conflict than understanding - that the question itself has started to be asked aggressively. Some may stop posting entirely. Some may post, but no longer engage the "why" question itself, instead switching to discussing how to most quickly end the source conflict (the "lets agree to disagree" escape). That's what I believe you saw in the post you were responding to.
Would not being able to attack a player 5+ levels below your own level unless attacked first be a solution? 5 levels can mean a lot in stats and gear if it's that type of game.
I think you are still missing the point
We, the ones who don't like PvP cannot care less if the attacker is punished or not. It is NOT punishment I want. I want him NOT TO BE ABLE to attack me. NEVER, not even once, if I don't agree with it. That is the only design element I can accept. Otherwise the game is unplayable for me.
Just an example which perhaps can make you understand:
let's say there is a game where another player can force you to sit for 2 mins and sing along with him. You're playing your game, enjoying whatever you're doing, perhaps killing a great monster with your friends when a player comes to you,clicks a button and bumm...you are out of action, you are sitting on the ground singing ! Wouldn't that be extremely annoying ? You aren't paying for a game to be forced to do stupid, boring activities ! How that other player dare to make you content for himself ! He can explain that he doesn't do it often, he can try to convince you that singing together is the best part of the game, that won't make you any happier. If you don't want to sing, you won't enjoy it. Simple as that.
I gave you a reason why I don't like to PvP. Here are some reasons why I don't like non-consensual PvP games:
1. I don't PvP because killing others make me feel bad.
2. I hate when I'm disturbed in my free time by players who think I should entertain them. No, I'm not willing to entertain them. I may be selfish, but I pay for the game just as much as they do, so leave me alone.
3. I hate a significant part of the PvP community. These players are the most obnoxious ones I've ever met, they spread lies about others, not only in game but even on forum, they stir up conflicts with no reason and even proud of that. They call that metagame, and that's something that makes me want to throw up.
Reading through this thread proved me that I'm not the only one who feels this way. So why don't you just copy my reasons to your OP instead of the wrong conclusions you seemed to get out of our posts ?
Eve Online says "Hi". PvP was always around the corner, no matter where you were, whether you liked it or not. Even Jita can be fatal.
A lot of people like PvP that don't like forced PvP. GW2 segregates the PvP from the PvE completely, and craploads of people enjoy that immensely. When I want to PvP I can go to WvW or structured PvP and have my fill. I can choose balanced PvP or chaotically delivered PvP, my choice. I can also do max level content without the specter of unwanted PvP hiding behind the next tree if I wish. Another choice. It's all about choices. Hell, give people the choice of fully optional PvP that in no way affects their PvE and you'll turn a lot of folks that "hated" PvP before into parts of the crazed mobs running around the PvP zones simply because, knowing it's a choice, they'll be more likely to give it a try.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Because if you die, he takes your axe and you go back to bind point? Or because you only have 30 minutes to play and you need enough wood to finish the house you're working on and you don't want to screw around with some epeener for 5 minutes.
You know how when you go to a movie, and the people in front of you are talking and standing up constantly and and obstructing your view? Why does it bother you? Because they are interfering with your enjoyment of the movie. Same thing for non-consensual PVP.
I don't hate PvP, what I hate to the typical crowd it attracts.
EVE is a prime example. The leader of goon squad or whatever publicly told people to antagonize a player to push him to commit suicide. This is pathetic and despicable behavior but that is the nature of people who play PvP. And Smeldy's association with that group is a major negative mark in my book. How someone, especially in his postion, would tolerate that group after that is beyond me. If what people say is true about him being part of goon. Both in EVE and DF:UW people grief players who are struggling early on to learn the game, while it might be true to a certain extent that this behavior does not reflect the PvP community as a whole it does reflect a significant portion of the community.
I'm all for PvP and do think that an increased risk should equate to an increase reward which is the essence of EVE. However there should be designated areas of PvP and certain paths that those who do not want it have that option to pursue and not have to be constantly on the lookout to the point of paranoia. Which is the case of EVE and that it completely sucks the fun out of the game for some or many.
I strongly believe in that a major pillar for any game should be PvP but it should not be the only pillar and not forced upon the whole community.
If SOE developers a system when it takes all aspects of the community to work together while not forcing different playstyles onto people then I'd be all for it.
I love PvP. I hate Ganking, camping or any of the other BS that takes place in open and forced PvP scenarios. A semi-even playing field where people with similar skills/qualifications/experience can compete, sure. Or even an open place where I know going in I am open to whatever comes at me I am good with.
But when I am half afk drinking coffee, going over the morning news, I am not interested in some 'leetkid' camping my corps, b/c S/he is 40 levels over me and there is nothing I can do about it. That isn't pvp imo that is akin to cyber bullying being honest.
Anyway, as usual just my opinions, and I am sure they aren't popular.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.