Personally i love the crafting side, from my early playing mmo with WoW getting them rare recipies etc. then i found the GEM
EvE - The crafting is most most awesome, I am currently a T2 producer, i run 4 different spreadsheets of my own making(yes im a complete geek)
I love the depth of the crafting, from starting with the considering supply and demand looking at what is profitable today, remember in EvE the market can change in 24hours to such a point what made a killing yesterday will lose money today, moving my alts from production from Prod A to Prod X because market movers
Invention and all the chance based that goes with this 48.8% base chance is actually 52.1% success (from last 10,000 inventions ive done)
To then deciding when is best time to buy raw mats, but not just that, to decide if component A is actually cheaper to buy than to build myself (one week it might the next not)
To finally building the end product, but not just that, to plugging the build jobs in to maximize my factories, basically dont want jobs finishing whilst im at work for 8 more hours, so plugging say 10hour build jobs @ 1800 to then replace before work with 12-18hour build jobs (depending where im working)
All of this on 4 toons, takes soo many hours, but i love eve, and i love hte completexity.. this game is what makes it for me and for me its the building / manufacturing thats the cherry on top
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types. I come from an Asheron's Call MMO background where Loot played a major role in the longevity of the game and to this day I fail to see how Crafting can be as rewarding as finding that 1 in a million rare drop. Now I am not talking about doing instance raids, as I hate that style of loot acquisition but instead I prefer a more Diablo/ARPG style approach to acquiring gear, through random drops and luck of the draw.
I've never played a Crafting Centric sandbox where gear is predominantly attained via crafting but I fail to see the appeal in it, and it is a prime concern for me when discussing EQN. Why would I go out hunting, exploring and grinding mobs when I know theres little value in doing so......This is also a primary reason for me quitting games like GW2 and now Neverwinter. Both Crafting Centric and Raid/Party Specific styles of MMO are on opposite ends of the spectrum, where both styles either remove the option or require a group. If this makes any sense let me just explain it like this. We are not grouped 24/7 in an MMO in fact my time spent in a group is on the order of 5%. What this means is that 95% of my time is spent by myself solo, when this happens I want to do what I enjoy....things like explore and hunting but when I know my time is spent wasted because I will never acquire anything useful I get bored rather quick. Does this make sense? Its hard to describe but I decided to quit Neverwinter because my enjoyment has waned even though I enjoyed the combat and the Foundry but there was something missing and it took me a few days to figure it out. It all boils down to not being properly rewarded for doing what I enjoy and to me the best way to reward me is through random loot drops. It's what I enjoyed so much about Asheron's Call, it kept me playing for longer then any MMO because I never knew what I would get.
So you're saying you want the same rewards for soloing as grouping?
You don't want a social experience when playing a game? Go play a single player RPG.
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types.
I see you never played SWG, just about everything was player created, yet a fully crafting focused character had no way to hunt for things like Krayt scales which were required to make top end equipment. Hence where community oriented design came into play, a combat player gathered these things and sold or traded them to a crafter, giving that combat oriented character plenty of reasons to hunt harder mobs.
On top of that exploring uncovered far more valuable resources. Which a crafter could place equipment that collected said resource.
Nope I was too engrossed in Asheron's Call at the time. Again I am a product of my first MMO I guess, like most people, I grew up in the genre on the AC model. (which is basically a Diablo on steroids model) I fail to see how hunting and adventuring for craftable materials is fun, to me just like the other side of the spectrum with requiring a raid or a group to acquire items I find them both unfun for a lack of a better word. I would guess my love of randomly finding gear the by-product of my first MMO. It's such a shame more games do not follow the AC style approach. I loved hunting and killing mobs because I had incentive to do so. (EDIT) the Randomness is also a key part why I like it better. In a crafting centric game I know exactly what I am going to get once completed which would reduce my will to continue over time because once I am done collecting my need to continue drops. Whereas in the AC model I am always looking for an upgrade.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types. I come from an Asheron's Call MMO background where Loot played a major role in the longevity of the game and to this day I fail to see how Crafting can be as rewarding as finding that 1 in a million rare drop. Now I am not talking about doing instance raids, as I hate that style of loot acquisition but instead I prefer a more Diablo/ARPG style approach to acquiring gear, through random drops and luck of the draw.
I've never played a Crafting Centric sandbox where gear is predominantly attained via crafting but I fail to see the appeal in it, and it is a prime concern for me when discussing EQN. Why would I go out hunting, exploring and grinding mobs when I know theres little value in doing so......This is also a primary reason for me quitting games like GW2 and now Neverwinter. Both Crafting Centric and Raid/Party Specific styles of MMO are on opposite ends of the spectrum, where both styles either remove the option or require a group. If this makes any sense let me just explain it like this. We are not grouped 24/7 in an MMO in fact my time spent in a group is on the order of 5%. What this means is that 95% of my time is spent by myself solo, when this happens I want to do what I enjoy....things like explore and hunting but when I know my time is spent wasted because I will never acquire anything useful I get bored rather quick. Does this make sense? Its hard to describe but I decided to quit Neverwinter because my enjoyment has waned even though I enjoyed the combat and the Foundry but there was something missing and it took me a few days to figure it out. It all boils down to not being properly rewarded for doing what I enjoy and to me the best way to reward me is through random loot drops. It's what I enjoyed so much about Asheron's Call, it kept me playing for longer then any MMO because I never knew what I would get.
So you're saying you want the same rewards for soloing as grouping?
You don't want a social experience when playing a game? Go play a single player RPG.
You want a social experience? Go meet some friends at the pub
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types. I come from an Asheron's Call MMO background where Loot played a major role in the longevity of the game and to this day I fail to see how Crafting can be as rewarding as finding that 1 in a million rare drop. Now I am not talking about doing instance raids, as I hate that style of loot acquisition but instead I prefer a more Diablo/ARPG style approach to acquiring gear, through random drops and luck of the draw.
In a crafting centric game all the classes work together. You love to hunt and explore, a crafter needs all those bones that you are looting and consider trash. He/she pays you handsomely while you are farming for X. X is the variable here because you aren't farming for that 2H mace but instead for a stack of dragon tissues to go into them.
It's all about changing your mindset because the systems aren't that different. Using the above bones and tissues, you have a chance to find a 1 in a million drop. To you it seems like junk but in the hands of the right crafter, it could become the most powerful weapon on the server. I remember in SWG there we're two guys who people feared in PvP because of the geo pistol and scythe blade they used.
It's all about flavor. When you know what you want, it's very exciting to see it drop after running through packs of elites or dragons. It's no different in a sandbox, however, you could farm for days and never get what you want. That is the main difference between the crafting centric games and loot focused games. You know the loot is going to drop and in other games you know where. I understand the randomization off D3 and other ARPGs but I think a few things are lost. But again, it's all about flavor. To loot materials and get a few crafting crits--amazing.
No one can convince you that crafting centric sandboxes are the way to go but they are more exciting, I think. You get the opporunity to make/have made an item that is very unique. You can give it it's own colors and name and change how it functions (damage, attack speed, accuracy, durability). In Diablo it's very possible for hundreds or thousands of players to share the same helm/weapon/chest/other equipment. In SWG it was very possible to have a weapon that no one else could ever get.
EDIT: The main point I wanted to make. In loot based games that is the fun of the games, finding the next best loot or best loot available. Parties are expendable, and sometimes the experiences that go along with them, because they are a means to an end. In the sandboxes it's apart of the system but it's not the game itself. Sure, you want to acquire better gear but you spend most of your time exploring, grouping and dying to krayt dragons, building camps and making online friends. The incentive to group is larger and the focus is on your interaction with the playerbase and less about gaining your N.Valor stacks. You get to enjoy the world. I loved GW2 but it's still not that true experience you get in a crafting centric sandbox.
The primary appeal of the crafting games is they tend to focus on community and the steps that go along with it. They are often more social and require you to interact to advance. You can still go solo and experience and fun and expansive world but those games feel empty alone.
Thanks for the reply and the way you posit it gives me a good ideal of what your talking of. Appreciate the detail of your post. Although I feel the Asheron's Call model is more to my liking I now see the issue from your point of view. AC's focus on community was just as important because of the social interaction within the guild setting, the use of an allegiance system and the use of needing a group to complete hard quests. Loot in AC was a separate issue to the community aspect and I prefer the ability to acquire loot solo if I want but the community required to complete quests. I suppose they're a differ breed of games and each ahs their own camp.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types. I come from an Asheron's Call MMO background where Loot played a major role in the longevity of the game and to this day I fail to see how Crafting can be as rewarding as finding that 1 in a million rare drop. Now I am not talking about doing instance raids, as I hate that style of loot acquisition but instead I prefer a more Diablo/ARPG style approach to acquiring gear, through random drops and luck of the draw.
In a crafting centric game all the classes work together. You love to hunt and explore, a crafter needs all those bones that you are looting and consider trash. He/she pays you handsomely while you are farming for X. X is the variable here because you aren't farming for that 2H mace but instead for a stack of dragon tissues to go into them.
It's all about changing your mindset because the systems aren't that different. Using the above bones and tissues, you have a chance to find a 1 in a million drop. To you it seems like junk but in the hands of the right crafter, it could become the most powerful weapon on the server. I remember in SWG there we're two guys who people feared in PvP because of the geo pistol and scythe blade they used.
It's all about flavor. When you know what you want, it's very exciting to see it drop after running through packs of elites or dragons. It's no different in a sandbox, however, you could farm for days and never get what you want. That is the main difference between the crafting centric games and loot focused games. You know the loot is going to drop and in other games you know where. I understand the randomization off D3 and other ARPGs but I think a few things are lost. But again, it's all about flavor. To loot materials and get a few crafting crits--amazing.
No one can convince you that crafting centric sandboxes are the way to go but they are more exciting, I think. You get the opporunity to make/have made an item that is very unique. You can give it it's own colors and name and change how it functions (damage, attack speed, accuracy, durability). In Diablo it's very possible for hundreds or thousands of players to share the same helm/weapon/chest/other equipment. In SWG it was very possible to have a weapon that no one else could ever get.
EDIT: The main point I wanted to make. In loot based games that is the fun of the games, finding the next best loot or best loot available. Parties are expendable, and sometimes the experiences that go along with them, because they are a means to an end. In the sandboxes it's apart of the system but it's not the game itself. Sure, you want to acquire better gear but you spend most of your time exploring, grouping and dying to krayt dragons, building camps and making online friends. The incentive to group is larger and the focus is on your interaction with the playerbase and less about gaining your N.Valor stacks. You get to enjoy the world. I loved GW2 but it's still not that true experience you get in a crafting centric sandbox.
The primary appeal of the crafting games is they tend to focus on community and the steps that go along with it. They are often more social and require you to interact to advance. You can still go solo and experience and fun and expansive world but those games feel empty alone.
Thanks for the reply and the way you posit it gives me a good ideal of what your talking of. Appreciate the detail of your post. Although I feel the Asheron's Call model is more to my liking I now see the issue from your point of view. AC's focus on community was just as important because of the social interaction within the guild setting, the use of an allegiance system and the use of needing a group to complete hard quests. Loot in AC was a separate issue to the community aspect and I prefer the ability to acquire loot solo if I want but the community required to complete quests. I suppose they're a differ breed of games and each ahs their own camp.
Awesome! I am glad you found my post helpful because I spent much lunchtime at work typing it out :P
Azza, I too am from AC so I will try to explain it in an AC centric way.
In AC we would hunt for hours on end, for that low quality max stats gear, that could be tinkered to max. We would also hunt hours for high quality materials that we could then tinker with. That Q10 Sunstone, or Granite bag that was saved for tink no 10 was ever so valuable. Tinkering became the gear game, finding loot was still great, but it could be trash with the failure to apply. Just imagine in a craft centric game, we gather everything, so instead of finding a max sword with max mods, we now hunt for all of our materials to make the sword as well as enhance it to its maximum possible.
Not saying EQN though will be like this, but a perfect crafting system would be AC's Tinkering system with the added property of weapon creation, it may happen someday, what if in AC you found 10 Q 10 hilts that could be combined by a max level crafter and 10 Q 10 blades that could also be combined, now find something that can remove a major sword buff and apply it in the process, etc.
In my old vanalla WoW days I made way more by harvesting only than crafting ever could.....I had sooo much gold I could buy anything the game had to offer, 10x over......Crafting never pays !.....Also in most mmos it was hard to find a crafter that could craft stuff for their own level
You keep pulling your hair out crafting, and I'll keep making money off you !
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types.
I see you never played SWG, just about everything was player created, yet a fully crafting focused character had no way to hunt for things like Krayt scales which were required to make top end equipment. Hence where community oriented design came into play, a combat player gathered these things and sold or traded them to a crafter, giving that combat oriented character plenty of reasons to hunt harder mobs.
On top of that exploring uncovered far more valuable resources. Which a crafter could place equipment that collected said resource.
Nope I was too engrossed in Asheron's Call at the time. Again I am a product of my first MMO I guess, like most people, I grew up in the genre on the AC model. (which is basically a Diablo on steroids model) I fail to see how hunting and adventuring for craftable materials is fun, to me just like the other side of the spectrum with requiring a raid or a group to acquire items I find them both unfun for a lack of a better word. I would guess my love of randomly finding gear the by-product of my first MMO. It's such a shame more games do not follow the AC style approach. I loved hunting and killing mobs because I had incentive to do so. (EDIT) the Randomness is also a key part why I like it better. In a crafting centric game I know exactly what I am going to get once completed which would reduce my will to continue over time because once I am done collecting my need to continue drops. Whereas in the AC model I am always looking for an upgrade.
I was constantly looking for upgrades in SWG as well, there was always the fun in respecing , which would require new skill tapes and weapons (upgrades) which would also need to be crafted (and components found through trade or exploring). As I mentioned in another reply in your thread, there was still the thrill of finding rare items (weapons), the crafting aspect simply added another layer of synergy between players.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by page975 In my old vanalla WoW days I made way more by harvesting only than crafting ever could.....I had sooo much gold I could buy anything the game had to offer, 10x over......Crafting never pays !.....Also in most mmos it was hard to find a crafter that could craft stuff for their level
Profit margins tend to the the opposite of what the majority finds fun.
A niche is profitable if there isn't much competition. If there isn't much competition, it presumably means that most other people aren't doing it. If they aren't doing it, they must not find it fun.
( this is why I usually seperate selling from crafting in these discussion as being as two seperate playstyles )
In my old vanalla WoW days I made way more by harvesting only than crafting ever could.....I had sooo much gold I could buy anything the game had to offer, 10x over......Crafting never pays !.....Also in most mmos it was hard to find a crafter that could craft stuff for their own level
You keep pulling your hair out crafting, and I'll keep making money off you !
this is the problem with loot based MMO , where items are not dropped as loot then the crafter holds all the cards, come to eve and show me how mining will earn you more than my crafting
Also, just become some dicks dont know how to manage the market doens't mean the crafting is broke, in WoW what i used to do was buy the cloth and craft bandages then sell to npc as crafted bandages and would make upwards of 100% markup so yes crafting even in WoW had its profitable items, i would oftren be found stood by ogrimmar AH crafting 1000s of bandages on weekends. (neverweave was the best money maker in them days)
Azza, I too am from AC so I will try to explain it in an AC centric way.
In AC we would hunt for hours on end, for that low quality max stats gear, that could be tinkered to max. We would also hunt hours for high quality materials that we could then tinker with. That Q10 Sunstone, or Granite bag that was saved for tink no 10 was ever so valuable. Tinkering became the gear game, finding loot was still great, but it could be trash with the failure to apply. Just imagine in a craft centric game, we gather everything, so instead of finding a max sword with max mods, we now hunt for all of our materials to make the sword as well as enhance it to its maximum possible.
Not saying EQN though will be like this, but a perfect crafting system would be AC's Tinkering system with the added property of weapon creation, it may happen someday, what if in AC you found 10 Q 10 hilts that could be combined by a max level crafter and 10 Q 10 blades that could also be combined, now find something that can remove a major sword buff and apply it in the process, etc.
You're right on the tinkering aspect and I loved that about the game as well but the real fun was still finding the perfect Amuli coat and Legs with matching trim and in my case containing Major Life, Axe, Melee Defense, and Arcane Lore.
Appreciate this post as well, it helps allays any fears I have about a crafting centric MMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
When I talk about Crafting focused or Crafting Centric I am not talking about building like Minecraft But having little to no loot drops and instead all Armor and Weapons being crafted.
My biggest reason is I fail to see the incentive to actually hunting and exploring, let alone tackling tough boss mob types. I come from an Asheron's Call MMO background where Loot played a major role in the longevity of the game and to this day I fail to see how Crafting can be as rewarding as finding that 1 in a million rare drop. Now I am not talking about doing instance raids, as I hate that style of loot acquisition but instead I prefer a more Diablo/ARPG style approach to acquiring gear, through random drops and luck of the draw.
I've never played a Crafting Centric sandbox where gear is predominantly attained via crafting but I fail to see the appeal in it, and it is a prime concern for me when discussing EQN. Why would I go out hunting, exploring and grinding mobs when I know theres little value in doing so......This is also a primary reason for me quitting games like GW2 and now Neverwinter. Both Crafting Centric and Raid/Party Specific styles of MMO are on opposite ends of the spectrum, where both styles either remove the option or require a group. If this makes any sense let me just explain it like this. We are not grouped 24/7 in an MMO in fact my time spent in a group is on the order of 5%. What this means is that 95% of my time is spent by myself solo, when this happens I want to do what I enjoy....things like explore and hunting but when I know my time is spent wasted because I will never acquire anything useful I get bored rather quick. Does this make sense? Its hard to describe but I decided to quit Neverwinter because my enjoyment has waned even though I enjoyed the combat and the Foundry but there was something missing and it took me a few days to figure it out. It all boils down to not being properly rewarded for doing what I enjoy and to me the best way to reward me is through random loot drops. It's what I enjoyed so much about Asheron's Call, it kept me playing for longer then any MMO because I never knew what I would get.
In order to craft better gear you fight them tough boss encounters for crafting items to make said loot. SWG worked well and kept many scouts/rangers/explorer's/ employed. It really gave a sense of community pride and working together on a large scale. Guild pride was also very strong and in your face. I prefer crafting and player driven economies as I have played them, they create so many politics and fueds on a social and pvp level that it gives you player driven content.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Originally posted by azzamasin Or you could read my post and learn that I also do not like this method of gear acquisition either.
Basically same thing - you kill 1 specific mob over and over or just kill random mobs over and over.
I am pretty much all the opposite - I do not understand what the "fun" is in complete randomness of item stats. It kills any economy/market since supply - demand cannot really work that way, and I see it as an utter waste of time and heap of frustration(there is no goal to achieve, all is random).
Azza, I too am from AC so I will try to explain it in an AC centric way.
In AC we would hunt for hours on end, for that low quality max stats gear, that could be tinkered to max. We would also hunt hours for high quality materials that we could then tinker with. That Q10 Sunstone, or Granite bag that was saved for tink no 10 was ever so valuable. Tinkering became the gear game, finding loot was still great, but it could be trash with the failure to apply. Just imagine in a craft centric game, we gather everything, so instead of finding a max sword with max mods, we now hunt for all of our materials to make the sword as well as enhance it to its maximum possible.
Not saying EQN though will be like this, but a perfect crafting system would be AC's Tinkering system with the added property of weapon creation, it may happen someday, what if in AC you found 10 Q 10 hilts that could be combined by a max level crafter and 10 Q 10 blades that could also be combined, now find something that can remove a major sword buff and apply it in the process, etc.
You're right on the tinkering aspect and I loved that about the game as well but the real fun was still finding the perfect Amuli coat and Legs with matching trim and in my case containing Major Life, Axe, Melee Defense, and Arcane Lore.
Appreciate this post as well, it helps allays any fears I have about a crafting centric MMO.
ahh mine was the Covenant Armor, loved that look, actually built a mage build around it, I was the first Cove Mage, which was a build of specced Life, Missile( had to reach 400+ buffed missile defense to activate my armor, Creature. Was so much fun, I was a mage tank who didnt even have offensive spells (outside of life drains) All I would do was debuff the shit out of everything while holding aggro while my fellowship burned down the mobs in the Valley of Death.
Or you could read my post and learn that I also do not like this method of gear acquisition either.
Basically same thing - you kill 1 specific mob over and over or just kill random mobs over and over.
I am pretty much all the opposite - I do not understand what the "fun" is in complete randomness of item stats. It kills any economy/market since supply - demand cannot really work that way, and I see it as an utter waste of time and heap of frustration(there is no goal to achieve, all is random).
play Asheron's Call and you would see it, we would form adventures rather then just farming one boss over and over waiting for drop. My Fellowship (group of 9) would meet up every morning at 2 am at the entrance to the Valley of Death, we had one person whose sole job was looting, grabbing crafting materials, and examining objects, it was a full time job, that we sometimes had to stop and wait for him to catch up. The other 8 would simply just GO in any direction, killing everything in our path. It was great times, great exp, great loot, at the end of our session each day we would divide up the Singularity keys (top end chest unlocking item, and top currency item on my server) and go over the loot. All the items we would salvage would be transferred to our groups Tinkering Mule, who we perched on a hill nearby to share exp with in order to help us all.
We just played and had fun, didnt worry about xxxboss and we liked it like that, any mob we killed could drop a top item at anytime, so we killed everything, we didnt try to skip trash or avoid pulls like other games
as to your supply demand theory, you couldnt be more wrong, it creates economy, because there is no "best gear" that eventually everyone has farmed, there is constantly items changing hands, being passed down, cause there was no BOE either
Know it or not, you have just explained the success of WoW to the general public. Blizzard learned from Diablo that players got a "burst of joy" from loot drops, especially rare ones. That is why the loot tables in WoW are so important and so many sites track WoW loot drops. The Human Animal enjoys their "Big O" from loot drops, and focus on games that provide the "Big O" experience. Most games that "Fail", do not provide the "Big O" experience.
You are right, a sandbox game that doesn't incorporate loot drops, will lose players. Case in point, SWG. I had mining and skinning on my main. I got my "Big O" from looking for good sampling nodes at the beginning of the week and harvest meat, bone, and hides.
Here is the thing, everyone's needs are different. A player's "Bartle Quotient" determines how much the need a loot drop system. I believe that a player that has a strong Achiever component will need loot drops. A player that has a low Achiever quotient will not. Now I am not saying that these games compartmentalize their satisfaction vectors. But these vectors are not direct.
I haven't played NeverWinter Online yet, but like SWG I expect that for a Killer Quotient bases quest, the player is rewarded with in game credits. This monetary reward can now be traded with a crafter (Achiever) for a crafted reward (loot drop). The crafter will be valued and praised for the quality of their items, the rarity of their loot drop. This is a form of "Forced Social Interaction." If you are not a fan of social interaction, then you will not be a fan of this type of game.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I am pretty much all the opposite - I do not understand what the "fun" is in complete randomness of item stats. It kills any economy/market since supply - demand cannot really work that way, and I see it as an utter waste of time and heap of frustration(there is no goal to achieve, all is random).
it all boils down to preferences.
And random stats gear is highly successful in games from Diablo 1 to 3. Millions of players are engaging in what you think is "utter waste of time" for long while.
What is the point? What you think is "utter waste of time" is fun entertainment for others.
EVE is not what I see as craft based. It's a player driven manufacturing system that regulates the economy and most people in EVE never build anything more than Ammo or T1 modules. EVE econ is a digital cartel that is influenced heavily by RMT. It works in EVE, the manufacturing lines of SP are very woven in to the game but the RMT side show the dangers in allowing a player base to control deep, core mechanics.
Besides SWG I haven't really played a true crafting to econ based game. Almost all games I have played since that don't have the decay to support crafting.You never replace anything in those games. SWG was also the only game with dynamic resources in the gathering system. From Naboo Berries to Yavinian Wooly hide, there were thousands of version of every resource in the game over its life. Each one having unique stats and each one having a very specific life cycle that it could be harvested on.
Star Wars Galaxies PreCU defined MMO crafting and Gathering and it is unmatched to this day. You really had to play that game to appreciate what it gave to the Genre and what it gave to that game. It was as much an adventure as any quest or storyline ever created for an MMO. It was pure gaming.
I think the ideal system would be, instead of those random "epic" loot drops, there should be epic crafting mats dropping from bosses, so theres still that sense of achievement to go out and hunt monsters to craft that epic sword... with tons and tons of different possible mats to collect with different stats...
Funny you bring up Minecraft...i love to craft in most MMOs but hated Minecraft.....As for crafting focused MMOs some of us just simply enjoy the time relaxing and making things to sell to other players or give to our alts......I'd much rather play a crafting MMO than a full loot PVP MMO any day.
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Personally i love the crafting side, from my early playing mmo with WoW getting them rare recipies etc. then i found the GEM
EvE - The crafting is most most awesome, I am currently a T2 producer, i run 4 different spreadsheets of my own making(yes im a complete geek)
I love the depth of the crafting, from starting with the considering supply and demand looking at what is profitable today, remember in EvE the market can change in 24hours to such a point what made a killing yesterday will lose money today, moving my alts from production from Prod A to Prod X because market movers
Invention and all the chance based that goes with this 48.8% base chance is actually 52.1% success (from last 10,000 inventions ive done)
To then deciding when is best time to buy raw mats, but not just that, to decide if component A is actually cheaper to buy than to build myself (one week it might the next not)
To finally building the end product, but not just that, to plugging the build jobs in to maximize my factories, basically dont want jobs finishing whilst im at work for 8 more hours, so plugging say 10hour build jobs @ 1800 to then replace before work with 12-18hour build jobs (depending where im working)
All of this on 4 toons, takes soo many hours, but i love eve, and i love hte completexity.. this game is what makes it for me and for me its the building / manufacturing thats the cherry on top
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
So you're saying you want the same rewards for soloing as grouping?
You don't want a social experience when playing a game? Go play a single player RPG.
Nope I was too engrossed in Asheron's Call at the time. Again I am a product of my first MMO I guess, like most people, I grew up in the genre on the AC model. (which is basically a Diablo on steroids model) I fail to see how hunting and adventuring for craftable materials is fun, to me just like the other side of the spectrum with requiring a raid or a group to acquire items I find them both unfun for a lack of a better word. I would guess my love of randomly finding gear the by-product of my first MMO. It's such a shame more games do not follow the AC style approach. I loved hunting and killing mobs because I had incentive to do so. (EDIT) the Randomness is also a key part why I like it better. In a crafting centric game I know exactly what I am going to get once completed which would reduce my will to continue over time because once I am done collecting my need to continue drops. Whereas in the AC model I am always looking for an upgrade.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
You want a social experience? Go meet some friends at the pub
Thanks for the reply and the way you posit it gives me a good ideal of what your talking of. Appreciate the detail of your post. Although I feel the Asheron's Call model is more to my liking I now see the issue from your point of view. AC's focus on community was just as important because of the social interaction within the guild setting, the use of an allegiance system and the use of needing a group to complete hard quests. Loot in AC was a separate issue to the community aspect and I prefer the ability to acquire loot solo if I want but the community required to complete quests. I suppose they're a differ breed of games and each ahs their own camp.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Spot on mate!
+ Progression through hard work and (mostly) social interaction
(instead of killing the same mob 999x till it drops the epic loot you want)
STOOPID
When someone does something so utterly moronic that it kills your brain cells at the very thought of it.
You fail to see how many players have fun?
If you don't get that combat is fun, and random drop is fun, then may be you should go to another genre. May be minecraft?
Awesome! I am glad you found my post helpful because I spent much lunchtime at work typing it out :P
Azza, I too am from AC so I will try to explain it in an AC centric way.
In AC we would hunt for hours on end, for that low quality max stats gear, that could be tinkered to max. We would also hunt hours for high quality materials that we could then tinker with. That Q10 Sunstone, or Granite bag that was saved for tink no 10 was ever so valuable. Tinkering became the gear game, finding loot was still great, but it could be trash with the failure to apply. Just imagine in a craft centric game, we gather everything, so instead of finding a max sword with max mods, we now hunt for all of our materials to make the sword as well as enhance it to its maximum possible.
Not saying EQN though will be like this, but a perfect crafting system would be AC's Tinkering system with the added property of weapon creation, it may happen someday, what if in AC you found 10 Q 10 hilts that could be combined by a max level crafter and 10 Q 10 blades that could also be combined, now find something that can remove a major sword buff and apply it in the process, etc.
In my old vanalla WoW days I made way more by harvesting only than crafting ever could.....I had sooo much gold I could buy anything the game had to offer, 10x over......Crafting never pays !.....Also in most mmos it was hard to find a crafter that could craft stuff for their own level
You keep pulling your hair out crafting, and I'll keep making money off you !
I was constantly looking for upgrades in SWG as well, there was always the fun in respecing , which would require new skill tapes and weapons (upgrades) which would also need to be crafted (and components found through trade or exploring). As I mentioned in another reply in your thread, there was still the thrill of finding rare items (weapons), the crafting aspect simply added another layer of synergy between players.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Profit margins tend to the the opposite of what the majority finds fun.
A niche is profitable if there isn't much competition. If there isn't much competition, it presumably means that most other people aren't doing it. If they aren't doing it, they must not find it fun.
( this is why I usually seperate selling from crafting in these discussion as being as two seperate playstyles )
this is the problem with loot based MMO , where items are not dropped as loot then the crafter holds all the cards, come to eve and show me how mining will earn you more than my crafting
Also, just become some dicks dont know how to manage the market doens't mean the crafting is broke, in WoW what i used to do was buy the cloth and craft bandages then sell to npc as crafted bandages and would make upwards of 100% markup so yes crafting even in WoW had its profitable items, i would oftren be found stood by ogrimmar AH crafting 1000s of bandages on weekends. (neverweave was the best money maker in them days)
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
You're right on the tinkering aspect and I loved that about the game as well but the real fun was still finding the perfect Amuli coat and Legs with matching trim and in my case containing Major Life, Axe, Melee Defense, and Arcane Lore.
Appreciate this post as well, it helps allays any fears I have about a crafting centric MMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I can't trade in AH in a SP RPG.
I can't show off my gear in a SP RPG.
Social experience is not the only reason to have other players around you in a game.
In order to craft better gear you fight them tough boss encounters for crafting items to make said loot. SWG worked well and kept many scouts/rangers/explorer's/ employed. It really gave a sense of community pride and working together on a large scale. Guild pride was also very strong and in your face. I prefer crafting and player driven economies as I have played them, they create so many politics and fueds on a social and pvp level that it gives you player driven content.
Basically same thing - you kill 1 specific mob over and over or just kill random mobs over and over.
I am pretty much all the opposite - I do not understand what the "fun" is in complete randomness of item stats. It kills any economy/market since supply - demand cannot really work that way, and I see it as an utter waste of time and heap of frustration(there is no goal to achieve, all is random).
ahh mine was the Covenant Armor, loved that look, actually built a mage build around it, I was the first Cove Mage, which was a build of specced Life, Missile( had to reach 400+ buffed missile defense to activate my armor, Creature. Was so much fun, I was a mage tank who didnt even have offensive spells (outside of life drains) All I would do was debuff the shit out of everything while holding aggro while my fellowship burned down the mobs in the Valley of Death.
play Asheron's Call and you would see it, we would form adventures rather then just farming one boss over and over waiting for drop. My Fellowship (group of 9) would meet up every morning at 2 am at the entrance to the Valley of Death, we had one person whose sole job was looting, grabbing crafting materials, and examining objects, it was a full time job, that we sometimes had to stop and wait for him to catch up. The other 8 would simply just GO in any direction, killing everything in our path. It was great times, great exp, great loot, at the end of our session each day we would divide up the Singularity keys (top end chest unlocking item, and top currency item on my server) and go over the loot. All the items we would salvage would be transferred to our groups Tinkering Mule, who we perched on a hill nearby to share exp with in order to help us all.
We just played and had fun, didnt worry about xxxboss and we liked it like that, any mob we killed could drop a top item at anytime, so we killed everything, we didnt try to skip trash or avoid pulls like other games
as to your supply demand theory, you couldnt be more wrong, it creates economy, because there is no "best gear" that eventually everyone has farmed, there is constantly items changing hands, being passed down, cause there was no BOE either
Know it or not, you have just explained the success of WoW to the general public. Blizzard learned from Diablo that players got a "burst of joy" from loot drops, especially rare ones. That is why the loot tables in WoW are so important and so many sites track WoW loot drops. The Human Animal enjoys their "Big O" from loot drops, and focus on games that provide the "Big O" experience. Most games that "Fail", do not provide the "Big O" experience.
You are right, a sandbox game that doesn't incorporate loot drops, will lose players. Case in point, SWG. I had mining and skinning on my main. I got my "Big O" from looking for good sampling nodes at the beginning of the week and harvest meat, bone, and hides.
Here is the thing, everyone's needs are different. A player's "Bartle Quotient" determines how much the need a loot drop system. I believe that a player that has a strong Achiever component will need loot drops. A player that has a low Achiever quotient will not. Now I am not saying that these games compartmentalize their satisfaction vectors. But these vectors are not direct.
I haven't played NeverWinter Online yet, but like SWG I expect that for a Killer Quotient bases quest, the player is rewarded with in game credits. This monetary reward can now be traded with a crafter (Achiever) for a crafted reward (loot drop). The crafter will be valued and praised for the quality of their items, the rarity of their loot drop. This is a form of "Forced Social Interaction." If you are not a fan of social interaction, then you will not be a fan of this type of game.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
it all boils down to preferences.
And random stats gear is highly successful in games from Diablo 1 to 3. Millions of players are engaging in what you think is "utter waste of time" for long while.
What is the point? What you think is "utter waste of time" is fun entertainment for others.
EVE is not what I see as craft based. It's a player driven manufacturing system that regulates the economy and most people in EVE never build anything more than Ammo or T1 modules. EVE econ is a digital cartel that is influenced heavily by RMT. It works in EVE, the manufacturing lines of SP are very woven in to the game but the RMT side show the dangers in allowing a player base to control deep, core mechanics.
Besides SWG I haven't really played a true crafting to econ based game. Almost all games I have played since that don't have the decay to support crafting.You never replace anything in those games. SWG was also the only game with dynamic resources in the gathering system. From Naboo Berries to Yavinian Wooly hide, there were thousands of version of every resource in the game over its life. Each one having unique stats and each one having a very specific life cycle that it could be harvested on.
Star Wars Galaxies PreCU defined MMO crafting and Gathering and it is unmatched to this day. You really had to play that game to appreciate what it gave to the Genre and what it gave to that game. It was as much an adventure as any quest or storyline ever created for an MMO. It was pure gaming.
I think the ideal system would be, instead of those random "epic" loot drops, there should be epic crafting mats dropping from bosses, so theres still that sense of achievement to go out and hunt monsters to craft that epic sword... with tons and tons of different possible mats to collect with different stats...