Originally posted by nerovipus32 Of course there is it's a wow clone.
This.
Yawn, we have had treasure in our RPG's long before your WoW.
Even your precious Guild Wars 2 that was going to revolutionize the way people played RPG's with no gear progression has abandoned that failed and not very well thought out philosophy once they saw how little retention it brought them.
My 'precious' GW2? you are mistaking me with someone else. So your attempt to hurt me is completely wasted.
And yes we had treasures in RPG long before WOW but WOW is the game that made hamster gear treadmill famous. You know it and i know it..everyone else knows it that FFXIV ARR has been remade to cash in on WOW's formula. Denial doesn't change the reality. When the idea of remaking FFXIV was just in it is infancy, YOSHI was pondering and taking surveys regarding implementing more WOW features into FFXIV.
I'm not a hamster, I play for gear for the same reasons I always did in RPG's. It is fun. You go out you complete a challenge and you are rewarded with some treasure for it. It might look neat, it might have stats I want, it might be an upgrade for something I already have.
I very well might pass it to a friend because they want it. I join groups with complete strangers just to help them get a piece of armor they want. It feels very much like a human behavior to me. I kinda feel bad for people who don't see the appeal of all that.
I'm sorry you sound so angry with WoW and FFXIV. That sounds terrible how Yoshi could do that to a poor infant. What a monster, if only you had been there to save us from him back then. You really put a lot of effort into continually pushing the whole "WoW clone" argument. They seem like pretty different experiences to me. Anyways, I'll be over here enjoying RPG's with treasure in them as I have long before WoW came out, but please continue to tell me how they are all raped by WoW and I'm just in denial about how much of a slave to the man I am.
It is a very compelling argument and I'm almost convinced. I think you just need to call me a few more names and you'll win me over to your perspective.
Names? who called you names bud? i think you are reading things which aren't even there.
And no i don't need to push any 'WOW clone' argument because that is what FFXIV it is when it comes to its end game. The experince you described is similar to WOW's raiding and the other endless clones which copied it.
I am not angry..this is not how angry individuals type really. Yoshi did what he had to do to bring more players back to FFXIV and the easiest way was to copy WOW's features. I am just calling it what it is.
Angry individuals tend to lurk on forums of games they don't like so they can repeatedly spam their arguments in the hopes that some similarly disgruntled person will come along to reaffirm their arguments.
Reading your other posts I thought you had come to the conclusion that this game will fail and go F2P because it doesn't bring anything new to the table and is just a WoW clone? So isn't the easiest thing to do to make a F2P cash shop, make vague statements and promises about how innovative and genius you are and call the game "revolutionary", genre changing, and earth shattering?
Call it whatever you want. We had endgame gear progression loooooooong before WoW, and while you may have other options today with games that promise to do away with all that. I think treasure will always have a home in RPG's. Which is good because a lot of people enjoy the hunt.
Really you don't think they will add any more? Everyone I know who still plays it from time to time certainly hopes they will.
I don't get the outrage. Some people like having something to aim for in their games, I know someone in the past might have hurt you and made you feel bad about not having something in an MMORPG. But not all players are like that. The very existence of desirable treasure doesn't take away anything from you.
Oh well different playstyles I guess. Anyways this game definitely has treasure, lots of gear sets to collect, and lots of progression. If you find those abhorrent then you can avoid them, but if you can't live in a world where others can have them too I guess this really isn't the game for you.
Probably because you play with people who've been conditioned to the treadmills.While in GW2 most people are playing it because they're absolutely sick of being a hamster running the treadmill endlessly.
You don't get the outrage? Having horizontal progression is one of GW2's biggest attractions, i.e a place for people to escape the gears treadmill that is so common in MMORPGs. It's been more than half a year since A.net introduced ascended gears, they've had plenty of opportunities since then to add more, but still they haven't, for good reason.
GW2 has treasures to chase just like every other MMORPGs, but they're cosmetic, you're not forced to chase them if you just want to experience new content.
Angry individuals tend to lurk on forums of games they don't like so they can repeatedly spam their arguments. Like how you are doing with saying this game is a WoW close. Is that the behavior of someone having fun?
Reading your other posts I thought you had come to the conclusion that this game will fail and go F2P because it doesn't bring anything new to the table and is just a WoW clone? So isn't the easiest thing to do to make a F2P cash shop, make vague statements and promises about how innovative and genius you are and call the game "revolutionary", genre changing, and earth shattering?
Call it whatever you want. We had endgame gear progression loooooooong before WoW, and while you may have other options today with games that promise to do away with all that. I think treasure will always have a home in RPG's. Which is good because a lot of people enjoy the hunt.
I am sorry Dr. Phil but i do not agree with your psychoanalysis of angry individuals. My discussion regarding payment models has nothing to do with FFXIV being good or bad. Find me a post where i said FFXIV is bad or sucks...you can't because i never said anything like that.
A lot of good games have gone F2P, because if i start believing that P2P and good MMO are relatives than... WOW was the only last good themepark MMO ever made.
Once again, the end game progression in FFXIV isn't the same as the end game progression which existed long before WOW. The design of WOW's end game was nothing like EQ, UO, Asheron Call or even Meridian. Stop making s*** up please.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Really you don't think they will add any more? Everyone I know who still plays it from time to time certainly hopes they will.
I don't get the outrage. Some people like having something to aim for in their games, I know someone in the past might have hurt you and made you feel bad about not having something in an MMORPG. But not all players are like that. The very existence of desirable treasure doesn't take away anything from you.
Oh well different playstyles I guess. Anyways this game definitely has treasure, lots of gear sets to collect, and lots of progression. If you find those abhorrent then you can avoid them, but if you can't live in a world where others can have them too I guess this really isn't the game for you.
Probably because you play with people who've been conditioned to the treadmills.While in GW2 most people are playing it because they're absolutely sick of being a hamster running the treadmill endlessly.
You don't get the outrage? Having horizontal progression is one of GW2's biggest attractions, i.e a place for people to escape the gears treadmill that is so common in MMORPGs. It's been more than half a year since A.net introduced ascended gears, they've had plenty of opportunities since then to add more, but still they haven't, for good reason.
GW2 has treasures to chase just like every other MMORPGs, but they're cosmetic, you're not forced to chase them if you just want to experience new content.
I've been conditioned?
Really? Interesting. So when I think hey it would be neat if after I beat this really challenging dragon if I could obtain something to make my character more powerful, that is just the borg speaking. You are lucky to be free of that with your cosmetic only gear.
I mean we have cosmetic gear too, but you are free from the tyranny of progression. What a blessing that must be, sadly I have been assimilated. I must progress my character, must play FFXIV for years, must grow attached to my character always looking forward to new content, and new rewards.
Help me!! I'm trapped, they are forcing me to do terrible things alongside my friends we are all trapped. Don't listen to us when we cheer for each other as we get "loot". We hate RPG's we just want.... nothing. End it please. Free us from our worldly (virtual worldly at least) desires for power and booty.
I also don't think you understand horizontal progression, it is still continual progression not simply a lack of it. XI, Vanguard, and EQ1 all had horizontal progression in the form of "clickies" and gear swapping that allowed multiple paths to make your character more powerful so they could accomplish greater feats.
Angry individuals tend to lurk on forums of games they don't like so they can repeatedly spam their arguments. Like how you are doing with saying this game is a WoW close. Is that the behavior of someone having fun?
Reading your other posts I thought you had come to the conclusion that this game will fail and go F2P because it doesn't bring anything new to the table and is just a WoW clone? So isn't the easiest thing to do to make a F2P cash shop, make vague statements and promises about how innovative and genius you are and call the game "revolutionary", genre changing, and earth shattering?
Call it whatever you want. We had endgame gear progression loooooooong before WoW, and while you may have other options today with games that promise to do away with all that. I think treasure will always have a home in RPG's. Which is good because a lot of people enjoy the hunt.
I am sorry Dr. Phil but i do not agree with your psychoanalysis of angry individuals. My discussion regarding payment models has nothing to do with FFXIV being good or bad. Find me a post where i said FFXIV is bad or sucks...you can't because i never said anything like that.
A lot of good games have gone F2P, because if i start believing that P2P and good MMO are relatives than... WOW was the only last good themepark MMO ever made.
Once again, the end game progression in FFXIV isn't the same as the end game progression which existed long before WOW. The design of WOW's end game was nothing like EQ, UO, Asheron Call or even Meridian. Stop making s*** up please.
Epic Weapon quests, tiered progression, yep these things were in Everquest 1 and FFXI (an Everquest 1 "clone"). Did you think people only raided and did content in that game for the experience, there was loot there and it was highly sought after. Tell me more of end game progression in FFXIV though since you are the expert.
How is it fundamentally like WoW and not Everquest? Wait let me guess.... it's a clone of WoW duh.
I enjoy when a game tries to step away from vertical progression gear treadmills. But I also don't mind those gear treadmills when they're done well. "Done well" being subjective.
Angry individuals tend to lurk on forums of games they don't like so they can repeatedly spam their arguments. Like how you are doing with saying this game is a WoW close. Is that the behavior of someone having fun?
Reading your other posts I thought you had come to the conclusion that this game will fail and go F2P because it doesn't bring anything new to the table and is just a WoW clone? So isn't the easiest thing to do to make a F2P cash shop, make vague statements and promises about how innovative and genius you are and call the game "revolutionary", genre changing, and earth shattering?
Call it whatever you want. We had endgame gear progression loooooooong before WoW, and while you may have other options today with games that promise to do away with all that. I think treasure will always have a home in RPG's. Which is good because a lot of people enjoy the hunt.
I am sorry Dr. Phil but i do not agree with your psychoanalysis of angry individuals. My discussion regarding payment models has nothing to do with FFXIV being good or bad. Find me a post where i said FFXIV is bad or sucks...you can't because i never said anything like that.
A lot of good games have gone F2P, because if i start believing that P2P and good MMO are relatives than... WOW was the only last good themepark MMO ever made.
Once again, the end game progression in FFXIV isn't the same as the end game progression which existed long before WOW. The design of WOW's end game was nothing like EQ, UO, Asheron Call or even Meridian. Stop making s*** up please.
Epic Weapon quests, tiered progression, yep these things were in Everquest 1 and FFXI (an Everquest 1 "clone"). Did you think people only raided and did content in that game for the experience, there was loot there and it was highly sought after. Tell me more of end game progression in FFXIV though since you are the expert.
How is it fundamentally like WoW and not Everquest? Wait let me guess.... it's a clone of WoW duh.
I am talking about end game raiding not epic weapon quests. EQ's end game has nothing in common with WOW'e end game. That is what you claimed that this style of end game existed long before WOW..which is completely false. None of the MMOS that came before WOW had hamster wheel gear grind where players were completely dependent on endless dungeon grind for PVE progression.
Like i said stop trying to make stuff up to suit your argument. To even suggest that FFXIV's end game progression is more akin to MMOS like EQ, UO, Meridian or AC is just laughable and absurd.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Angry individuals tend to lurk on forums of games they don't like so they can repeatedly spam their arguments. Like how you are doing with saying this game is a WoW close. Is that the behavior of someone having fun?
Reading your other posts I thought you had come to the conclusion that this game will fail and go F2P because it doesn't bring anything new to the table and is just a WoW clone? So isn't the easiest thing to do to make a F2P cash shop, make vague statements and promises about how innovative and genius you are and call the game "revolutionary", genre changing, and earth shattering?
Call it whatever you want. We had endgame gear progression loooooooong before WoW, and while you may have other options today with games that promise to do away with all that. I think treasure will always have a home in RPG's. Which is good because a lot of people enjoy the hunt.
I am sorry Dr. Phil but i do not agree with your psychoanalysis of angry individuals. My discussion regarding payment models has nothing to do with FFXIV being good or bad. Find me a post where i said FFXIV is bad or sucks...you can't because i never said anything like that.
A lot of good games have gone F2P, because if i start believing that P2P and good MMO are relatives than... WOW was the only last good themepark MMO ever made.
Once again, the end game progression in FFXIV isn't the same as the end game progression which existed long before WOW. The design of WOW's end game was nothing like EQ, UO, Asheron Call or even Meridian. Stop making s*** up please.
Epic Weapon quests, tiered progression, yep these things were in Everquest 1 and FFXI (an Everquest 1 "clone"). Did you think people only raided and did content in that game for the experience, there was loot there and it was highly sought after. Tell me more of end game progression in FFXIV though since you are the expert.
How is it fundamentally like WoW and not Everquest? Wait let me guess.... it's a clone of WoW duh.
I am talking about end game raiding not epic weapon quests. EQ's end game has nothing in common with WOW'e end game. That is what you claimed that this style of end game existed long before WOW..which is completely false. None of the MMOS that came before WOW had hamster wheel gear grind where players were completely dependent on endless dungeon grind for PVE progression.
Like i said stop trying to make stuff up to suit your argument. To even suggest that FFXIV's end game progression is more akin to MMOS like EQ, UO, Meridian or AC is just laughable and absurd.
How did people progress in Everquest PvE once they maxed out their level and AA through hundreds of hours of grinding, if not from farming content? Because that is what most raiding guilds did with the majority of their playtime.
Also when did I bring up UO/Meridean or AC of course it isn't like those games. Nothing has been since those games. I don't particularly care for their games, or use them as a point of reference for anything. It is however like a traditional RPG, you kill things you get treasure. You use that treasure to become stronger, then you go kill more things. That is not WoW exclusive, I'm sorry.
You keep using buzz words like "hamster wheel" and "gear grind", can you expand on these at all and how FFXIV will suffer from them? It seems to me it has a great variety of enjoyable endgame content which eliminates the "grind", at least for those who enjoy it. It certainly won't be as Grindy as FFXI or EQ was because super rare RNG drops are not a part of the plan for this game. It also promises a much faster and more loaded pace of content updates, something not possible in that age of MMORPG's (though imo FFXI had more content than most modern disposable MMORPG's by far).
As for hamster wheel, I'm sorry I don't know what this means. Can you explain it in a way that doesn't just sound like you are describing every single RPG that has wearable treasure?
I also don't think you understand horizontal progression, it is still continual progression not simply a lack of it. XI, Vanguard, and EQ1 all had horizontal progression in the form of "clickies" and gear swapping that allowed multiple paths to make your character more powerful so they could accomplish greater feats.
And GW2 has them too, in the form of different sets of gears that provide different stats for different playstlye, but you'd not know it don't you.
Want to know the most harmful thing about vertical progression? Everytime new tier of gears is introduced, every time the level cap is raised, older content quickly become worthless and you'll find less and less people willing to run through older content with you because there's little that benefits them, so in practice, endgame content doesn't add up, but replaced, kinda like the temporary content that you trash so much in GW2
Not to mention in PvP the stats imbalance can become so great that newbies life expectancy in battles is less than 10 seconds, to put it generiously.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Of course there is it's a wow clone.
This.
Yawn, we have had treasure in our RPG's long before your WoW.
Even your precious Guild Wars 2 that was going to revolutionize the way people played RPG's with no gear progression has abandoned that failed and not very well thought out philosophy once they saw how little retention it brought them.
My 'precious' GW2? you are mistaking me with someone else. So your attempt to hurt me is completely wasted.
And yes we had treasures in RPG long before WOW but WOW is the game that made hamster gear treadmill famous. You know it and i know it..everyone else knows it that FFXIV ARR has been remade to cash in on WOW's formula. Denial doesn't change the reality. When the idea of remaking FFXIV was just in it is infancy, YOSHI was pondering and taking surveys regarding implementing more WOW features into FFXIV.
After all the reading I have done on crafting I know you are wrong! Sorry try again!
I also don't think you understand horizontal progression, it is still continual progression not simply a lack of it. XI, Vanguard, and EQ1 all had horizontal progression in the form of "clickies" and gear swapping that allowed multiple paths to make your character more powerful so they could accomplish greater feats.
And GW2 has them too, in the form of different sets of gears that provide different stats for different playstlye, but you'd not know it don't you.
Want to know the most harmful thing about vertical progression? Everytime new tier of gears is introduced, every time the level cap is raised, older content quickly become worthless and you'll find less and less people willing to run through older content with you because there's little that benefits them, so in practice, endgame content doesn't add up, but replaced, kinda like the temporary content that you trash so much in GW2
Not to mention in PvP the stats imbalance can become so great that newbies life expectancy in battles is less than 10 seconds, to put it generiously.
All of this create huge barriers for newcomers.
That's really not unique to GW2. Pretty much every MMORPG has situational gear options. It doesn't make it different. What made FFXI and EQ1/Vangaurd hell even early WoW/Vanguard truly great examples of horizontal progression is that gear stayed relevant due to the ability to use it without having to choose to equip it over something else (situational or not). GW2 is simply lack of progression. Nothing fancier.
I'd agree with you about endgame content being replaced except FFXIV addresses that by having semi-tiered progression. You need to get certain gear at 50, which makes you better equipped to take on raids and other more challenging content.
Once content becomes unpopular it is altered in order to keep it relevant. Drops from the dungeon can be farmed and turned into Grand Companies, or turned into more valuable tiers of Materia that can be affixed to new gear.
Players can level sync and even people who have passed lower content tiers in their progression can still benefit, and add to their own progression by going back and helping others.
Primal fights that no longer bring signficant numbers of people to their instance can be moved into the open world and take a new form. Not as solely providers of loot, but as summons your group can tame and then unleash in a powerful pact for a one time devastating effect.
Ticks my boxes, and addresses my complaints with vertical progression ()though I still miss gear swaps and clickies). Hmmmm maybe Doogiehowser can explain how all this was merely co-opted from World of Warcraft.
That's really not unique to GW2. Pretty much every MMORPG has situational gear options. It doesn't make it different. What made FFXI and EQ1/Vangaurd hell even early WoW/Vanguard truly great examples of horizontal progression is that gear stayed relevant due to the ability to use it without having to choose to equip it over something else (situational or not). GW2 is simply lack of progression. Nothing fancier.
Yep, the only reason gears stayed relevant in early WoW was because the stats imbalance was so great that comparing a fresh 60 to a geared 60 is like comparing a 50 to a 60, that's how bad it was.
And no, I don't tihnk you understand what horizontal progression means, purely horizontal progression is a flat line, like GW2, while yours example is something that came out of twisted world.
I'd agree with you about endgame content being replaced except FFXIV addresses that by having semi-tiered progression. You need to get certain gear at 50, which makes you better equipped to take on raids and other more challenging content.
Once content becomes unpopular it is altered in order to keep it relevant. Drops from the dungeon can be farmed and turned into Grand Companies, or turned into more valuable tiers of Materia that can be affixed to new gear.
Essentially like the badges system, didn't help at all.
Players can level sync and even people who have passed lower content tiers in their progression can still benefit, and add to their own progression by going back and helping others.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Of course there is it's a wow clone.
This.
Yawn, we have had treasure in our RPG's long before your WoW.
Even your precious Guild Wars 2 that was going to revolutionize the way people played RPG's with no gear progression has abandoned that failed and not very well thought out philosophy once they saw how little retention it brought them.
My 'precious' GW2? you are mistaking me with someone else. So your attempt to hurt me is completely wasted.
And yes we had treasures in RPG long before WOW but WOW is the game that made hamster gear treadmill famous. You know it and i know it..everyone else knows it that FFXIV ARR has been remade to cash in on WOW's formula. Denial doesn't change the reality. When the idea of remaking FFXIV was just in it is infancy, YOSHI was pondering and taking surveys regarding implementing more WOW features into FFXIV.
After all the reading I have done on crafting I know you are wrong! Sorry try again!
What has end game dungeon grind got anything to do with crafting? unless you are telling me that stuff you make from crafting is better than dungeon drops? is that it?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
How did people progress in Everquest PvE once they maxed out their level and AA through hundreds of hours of grinding, if not from farming content? Because that is what most raiding guilds did with the majority of their playtime.
Also when did I bring up UO/Meridean or AC of course it isn't like those games. Nothing has been since those games. I don't particularly care for their games, or use them as a point of reference for anything. It is however like a traditional RPG, you kill things you get treasure. You use that treasure to become stronger, then you go kill more things. That is not WoW exclusive, I'm sorry.
You keep using buzz words like "hamster wheel" and "gear grind", can you expand on these at all and how FFXIV will suffer from them? It seems to me it has a great variety of enjoyable endgame content which eliminates the "grind", at least for those who enjoy it. It certainly won't be as Grindy as FFXI or EQ was because super rare RNG drops are not a part of the plan for this game. It also promises a much faster and more loaded pace of content updates, something not possible in that age of MMORPG's (though imo FFXI had more content than most modern disposable MMORPG's by far).
As for hamster wheel, I'm sorry I don't know what this means. Can you explain it in a way that doesn't just sound like you are describing every single RPG that has wearable treasure?
One thing is crystal clear to me that you never played EQ because if you did you would never make comparison of FFXIV's dungeon grind with that of EQ. Your original argument was that end game that now exists in FFXIV which is heavily based on grinding for armor drops with better stats existed before WOW is completely wrong. That is why i mentioned older MMOS. I have played a lot of older RPGS but never came across one where groups of 5 or 6 people continuously bash on same end boss over and over again..day after day just to get the drop they need. That is akin to hamster running on the wheel (don't know what is so hard to understand here). This style of end game was made famous by WOW and no it didn't exist in older RPGS or older MMOS. And i didn't know that 'gear grind' is a buzz word now.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
I think a lot of you are missing the point of what the term "gear grind" actually ends up meaning, which is this:
You get maybe 2-3 drops from end-game boss's and you are trying to gear out an entire guild!
You do it because they are your friends and your guildmates and you like to see them rewarded, to some degree, the same as you enjoy it for yourself!
You might get lucky and get some of your XX'teenth slots upgraded after just 1-2 runs but you know you will also need help from those who you count on to stick it out even after they are full BIS to date, which is why you are willing to do the same.
Upgrading your gear to me was always almost the entire point, or at least the center wheel around which all other sub-content revolved.
And on WoW treadmill.. wait a minute.. that almost sounds like a complaint about TOO much content... I'm by no means a WoW apologist after what its become.. just sayin.
How did people progress in Everquest PvE once they maxed out their level and AA through hundreds of hours of grinding, if not from farming content? Because that is what most raiding guilds did with the majority of their playtime.
Also when did I bring up UO/Meridean or AC of course it isn't like those games. Nothing has been since those games. I don't particularly care for their games, or use them as a point of reference for anything. It is however like a traditional RPG, you kill things you get treasure. You use that treasure to become stronger, then you go kill more things. That is not WoW exclusive, I'm sorry.
You keep using buzz words like "hamster wheel" and "gear grind", can you expand on these at all and how FFXIV will suffer from them? It seems to me it has a great variety of enjoyable endgame content which eliminates the "grind", at least for those who enjoy it. It certainly won't be as Grindy as FFXI or EQ was because super rare RNG drops are not a part of the plan for this game. It also promises a much faster and more loaded pace of content updates, something not possible in that age of MMORPG's (though imo FFXI had more content than most modern disposable MMORPG's by far).
As for hamster wheel, I'm sorry I don't know what this means. Can you explain it in a way that doesn't just sound like you are describing every single RPG that has wearable treasure?
One thing is crystal clear to me that you never played EQ because if you did you would never make comparison of FFXIV's dungeon grind with that of EQ. Your original argument was that end game that now exists in FFXIV which is heavily based on grinding for armor drops with better stats existed before WOW is completely wrong. That is why i mentioned older MMOS. I have played a lot of older RPGS but never came across one where groups of 5 or 6 people continuously bash on same end boss over and over again..day after day just to get the drop they need. That is akin to hamster running on the wheel (don't know what is so hard to understand here). This style of end game was made famous by WOW and no it didn't exist in older RPGS or older MMOS. And i didn't know that 'gear grind' is a buzz word now.
Seriously you are saying no one farmed gear in EQ raids.
Whatever man, I guess we have very different memories of RPG's if you think that no one enjoyed farming gear until WoW came out. I don't even know how to argue with someone like you who can just wrap yourself in this fantasy that WoW invented everything.
People beating on "end bosses" over and over again until they dropped the loot they wanted is pretty much Everquest in a nutshell.
I think WoW is probably the oldest RPG you have ever played judging from your posts.
Seriously you are saying no one farmed gear in EQ raids.
Whatever man, I guess we have very different memories of RPG's if you think that no one enjoyed farming gear until WoW came out. I don't even know how to argue with someone like you who can just wrap yourself in this fantasy that WoW invented everything.
People beating on "end bosses" over and over again until they dropped the loot they wanted is pretty much Everquest in a nutshell.
I think WoW is probably the oldest RPG you have ever played judging from your posts.
Never speak to me again. Welcome to my ignore list.
It is ironic really that someone who compares FFXIV's end game of gear grind to EQ is telling me that WOW is the oldest RPG i have ever played. And adding me to ignore list isn't going to change that. Talk about being childish, throwing your toys out of the pram when things don't go your way. EQ's dungeon progression have nothing in common with FFXIV or WOW. Only because there is dungeon and there are bosses doesn't mean it is same design. Even in Diablo players farmed gear so i guess it is the same thing as in FFXIV.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Very likely. Despite those crying that gear grind sucks, chances are if there was none, they probably would be the first to finish then drop the game instantly. We want no gear grind but once we got the gear we have no reason to play your game and drop it. Its one of those catch 22s, people wanting more content to play but calling for less to do/work for.
Originally posted by Purutzil Very likely. Despite those crying that gear grind sucks, chances are if there was none, they probably would be the first to finish then drop the game instantly. We want no gear grind but once we got the gear we have no reason to play your game and drop it. Its one of those catch 22s, people wanting more content to play but calling for less to do/work for.
could not be further from the truth. most pve'rs who do not like to raid have plenty of other things to keep them interested in a game. that's the thing, they neither need nor want a single path of entertainment in an mmo. and a gear grind via raiding is exactly that. gear is cool and fun to get, but its simply not a primary focus.
now, another difference (at least from the tone of your post) is that for the most part we don't begrudge the raiders their raids. we're happy for them and like to hear their stories. we like the fact that there are options out there for people to enjoy the game.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Seriously you are saying no one farmed gear in EQ raids.
Whatever man, I guess we have very different memories of RPG's if you think that no one enjoyed farming gear until WoW came out. I don't even know how to argue with someone like you who can just wrap yourself in this fantasy that WoW invented everything.
People beating on "end bosses" over and over again until they dropped the loot they wanted is pretty much Everquest in a nutshell.
I think WoW is probably the oldest RPG you have ever played judging from your posts.
Never speak to me again. Welcome to my ignore list.
It is ironic really that someone who compares FFXIV's end game of gear grind to EQ is telling me that WOW is the oldest RPG i have ever played. And adding me to ignore list isn't going to change that. Talk about being childish, throwing your toys out of the pram when things don't go your way. EQ's dungeon progression have nothing in common with FFXIV or WOW. Only because there is dungeon and there are bosses doesn't mean it is same design. Even in Diablo players farmed gear so i guess it is the same thing as in FFXIV.
Oh brilliant yeah Diablo is totally not a gear grind. No one farms in those games. Are you just posting ironically or do you seriously buy this stuff you are saying?
I just have to assume you are trolling me at this point, oh wait I said I'd put on you ignore. Let me get right on that.
Seriously you are saying no one farmed gear in EQ raids.
Whatever man, I guess we have very different memories of RPG's if you think that no one enjoyed farming gear until WoW came out. I don't even know how to argue with someone like you who can just wrap yourself in this fantasy that WoW invented everything.
People beating on "end bosses" over and over again until they dropped the loot they wanted is pretty much Everquest in a nutshell.
I think WoW is probably the oldest RPG you have ever played judging from your posts.
Never speak to me again. Welcome to my ignore list.
It is ironic really that someone who compares FFXIV's end game of gear grind to EQ is telling me that WOW is the oldest RPG i have ever played. And adding me to ignore list isn't going to change that. Talk about being childish, throwing your toys out of the pram when things don't go your way. EQ's dungeon progression have nothing in common with FFXIV or WOW. Only because there is dungeon and there are bosses doesn't mean it is same design. Even in Diablo players farmed gear so i guess it is the same thing as in FFXIV.
Oh brilliant yeah Diablo is totally not a gear grind. No one farms in those games. Are you just posting ironically or do you seriously buy this stuff you are saying?
I just have to assume you are trolling me at this point, oh wait I said I'd put on you ignore. Let me get right on that.
Jesus.
I gave example of Diablo just to show that only if a RPG has gear farming grind doesn't mean it is same as what exists in WOW or FFXIV. EQ and Diablo end game has nothing in common neither does FFXIV with EQ.
No where i said Diablo doesn't have gear farming. Your inability to read and comprehend is staggering really.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Comments
Angry individuals tend to lurk on forums of games they don't like so they can repeatedly spam their arguments in the hopes that some similarly disgruntled person will come along to reaffirm their arguments.
Reading your other posts I thought you had come to the conclusion that this game will fail and go F2P because it doesn't bring anything new to the table and is just a WoW clone? So isn't the easiest thing to do to make a F2P cash shop, make vague statements and promises about how innovative and genius you are and call the game "revolutionary", genre changing, and earth shattering?
Call it whatever you want. We had endgame gear progression loooooooong before WoW, and while you may have other options today with games that promise to do away with all that. I think treasure will always have a home in RPG's. Which is good because a lot of people enjoy the hunt.
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Probably because you play with people who've been conditioned to the treadmills.While in GW2 most people are playing it because they're absolutely sick of being a hamster running the treadmill endlessly.
You don't get the outrage? Having horizontal progression is one of GW2's biggest attractions, i.e a place for people to escape the gears treadmill that is so common in MMORPGs. It's been more than half a year since A.net introduced ascended gears, they've had plenty of opportunities since then to add more, but still they haven't, for good reason.
GW2 has treasures to chase just like every other MMORPGs, but they're cosmetic, you're not forced to chase them if you just want to experience new content.
I am sorry Dr. Phil but i do not agree with your psychoanalysis of angry individuals. My discussion regarding payment models has nothing to do with FFXIV being good or bad. Find me a post where i said FFXIV is bad or sucks...you can't because i never said anything like that.
A lot of good games have gone F2P, because if i start believing that P2P and good MMO are relatives than... WOW was the only last good themepark MMO ever made.
Once again, the end game progression in FFXIV isn't the same as the end game progression which existed long before WOW. The design of WOW's end game was nothing like EQ, UO, Asheron Call or even Meridian. Stop making s*** up please.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
I've been conditioned?
Really? Interesting. So when I think hey it would be neat if after I beat this really challenging dragon if I could obtain something to make my character more powerful, that is just the borg speaking. You are lucky to be free of that with your cosmetic only gear.
I mean we have cosmetic gear too, but you are free from the tyranny of progression. What a blessing that must be, sadly I have been assimilated. I must progress my character, must play FFXIV for years, must grow attached to my character always looking forward to new content, and new rewards.
Help me!! I'm trapped, they are forcing me to do terrible things alongside my friends we are all trapped. Don't listen to us when we cheer for each other as we get "loot". We hate RPG's we just want.... nothing. End it please. Free us from our worldly (virtual worldly at least) desires for power and booty.
I also don't think you understand horizontal progression, it is still continual progression not simply a lack of it. XI, Vanguard, and EQ1 all had horizontal progression in the form of "clickies" and gear swapping that allowed multiple paths to make your character more powerful so they could accomplish greater feats.
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Epic Weapon quests, tiered progression, yep these things were in Everquest 1 and FFXI (an Everquest 1 "clone"). Did you think people only raided and did content in that game for the experience, there was loot there and it was highly sought after. Tell me more of end game progression in FFXIV though since you are the expert.
How is it fundamentally like WoW and not Everquest? Wait let me guess.... it's a clone of WoW duh.
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I enjoy when a game tries to step away from vertical progression gear treadmills. But I also don't mind those gear treadmills when they're done well. "Done well" being subjective.
I am talking about end game raiding not epic weapon quests. EQ's end game has nothing in common with WOW'e end game. That is what you claimed that this style of end game existed long before WOW..which is completely false. None of the MMOS that came before WOW had hamster wheel gear grind where players were completely dependent on endless dungeon grind for PVE progression.
Like i said stop trying to make stuff up to suit your argument. To even suggest that FFXIV's end game progression is more akin to MMOS like EQ, UO, Meridian or AC is just laughable and absurd.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
How did people progress in Everquest PvE once they maxed out their level and AA through hundreds of hours of grinding, if not from farming content? Because that is what most raiding guilds did with the majority of their playtime.
Also when did I bring up UO/Meridean or AC of course it isn't like those games. Nothing has been since those games. I don't particularly care for their games, or use them as a point of reference for anything. It is however like a traditional RPG, you kill things you get treasure. You use that treasure to become stronger, then you go kill more things. That is not WoW exclusive, I'm sorry.
You keep using buzz words like "hamster wheel" and "gear grind", can you expand on these at all and how FFXIV will suffer from them? It seems to me it has a great variety of enjoyable endgame content which eliminates the "grind", at least for those who enjoy it. It certainly won't be as Grindy as FFXI or EQ was because super rare RNG drops are not a part of the plan for this game. It also promises a much faster and more loaded pace of content updates, something not possible in that age of MMORPG's (though imo FFXI had more content than most modern disposable MMORPG's by far).
As for hamster wheel, I'm sorry I don't know what this means. Can you explain it in a way that doesn't just sound like you are describing every single RPG that has wearable treasure?
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And GW2 has them too, in the form of different sets of gears that provide different stats for different playstlye, but you'd not know it don't you.
Want to know the most harmful thing about vertical progression? Everytime new tier of gears is introduced, every time the level cap is raised, older content quickly become worthless and you'll find less and less people willing to run through older content with you because there's little that benefits them, so in practice, endgame content doesn't add up, but replaced, kinda like the temporary content that you trash so much in GW2
Not to mention in PvP the stats imbalance can become so great that newbies life expectancy in battles is less than 10 seconds, to put it generiously.
All of this create huge barriers for newcomers.
After all the reading I have done on crafting I know you are wrong! Sorry try again!
That's really not unique to GW2. Pretty much every MMORPG has situational gear options. It doesn't make it different. What made FFXI and EQ1/Vangaurd hell even early WoW/Vanguard truly great examples of horizontal progression is that gear stayed relevant due to the ability to use it without having to choose to equip it over something else (situational or not). GW2 is simply lack of progression. Nothing fancier.
I'd agree with you about endgame content being replaced except FFXIV addresses that by having semi-tiered progression. You need to get certain gear at 50, which makes you better equipped to take on raids and other more challenging content.
Once content becomes unpopular it is altered in order to keep it relevant. Drops from the dungeon can be farmed and turned into Grand Companies, or turned into more valuable tiers of Materia that can be affixed to new gear.
Players can level sync and even people who have passed lower content tiers in their progression can still benefit, and add to their own progression by going back and helping others.
Primal fights that no longer bring signficant numbers of people to their instance can be moved into the open world and take a new form. Not as solely providers of loot, but as summons your group can tame and then unleash in a powerful pact for a one time devastating effect.
Ticks my boxes, and addresses my complaints with vertical progression ()though I still miss gear swaps and clickies). Hmmmm maybe Doogiehowser can explain how all this was merely co-opted from World of Warcraft.
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What has end game dungeon grind got anything to do with crafting? unless you are telling me that stuff you make from crafting is better than dungeon drops? is that it?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
One thing is crystal clear to me that you never played EQ because if you did you would never make comparison of FFXIV's dungeon grind with that of EQ. Your original argument was that end game that now exists in FFXIV which is heavily based on grinding for armor drops with better stats existed before WOW is completely wrong. That is why i mentioned older MMOS. I have played a lot of older RPGS but never came across one where groups of 5 or 6 people continuously bash on same end boss over and over again..day after day just to get the drop they need. That is akin to hamster running on the wheel (don't know what is so hard to understand here). This style of end game was made famous by WOW and no it didn't exist in older RPGS or older MMOS. And i didn't know that 'gear grind' is a buzz word now.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
I think a lot of you are missing the point of what the term "gear grind" actually ends up meaning, which is this:
You get maybe 2-3 drops from end-game boss's and you are trying to gear out an entire guild!
You do it because they are your friends and your guildmates and you like to see them rewarded, to some degree, the same as you enjoy it for yourself!
You might get lucky and get some of your XX'teenth slots upgraded after just 1-2 runs but you know you will also need help from those who you count on to stick it out even after they are full BIS to date, which is why you are willing to do the same.
Upgrading your gear to me was always almost the entire point, or at least the center wheel around which all other sub-content revolved.
And on WoW treadmill.. wait a minute.. that almost sounds like a complaint about TOO much content... I'm by no means a WoW apologist after what its become.. just sayin.
Seriously you are saying no one farmed gear in EQ raids.
Whatever man, I guess we have very different memories of RPG's if you think that no one enjoyed farming gear until WoW came out. I don't even know how to argue with someone like you who can just wrap yourself in this fantasy that WoW invented everything.
People beating on "end bosses" over and over again until they dropped the loot they wanted is pretty much Everquest in a nutshell.
I think WoW is probably the oldest RPG you have ever played judging from your posts.
Here you go:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/eq:raid_progression_guide
Never speak to me again. Welcome to my ignore list.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
It is ironic really that someone who compares FFXIV's end game of gear grind to EQ is telling me that WOW is the oldest RPG i have ever played. And adding me to ignore list isn't going to change that. Talk about being childish, throwing your toys out of the pram when things don't go your way. EQ's dungeon progression have nothing in common with FFXIV or WOW. Only because there is dungeon and there are bosses doesn't mean it is same design. Even in Diablo players farmed gear so i guess it is the same thing as in FFXIV.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
could not be further from the truth. most pve'rs who do not like to raid have plenty of other things to keep them interested in a game. that's the thing, they neither need nor want a single path of entertainment in an mmo. and a gear grind via raiding is exactly that. gear is cool and fun to get, but its simply not a primary focus.
now, another difference (at least from the tone of your post) is that for the most part we don't begrudge the raiders their raids. we're happy for them and like to hear their stories. we like the fact that there are options out there for people to enjoy the game.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Well that's the basic paradoxon of making a finite progression the gameplay core of a technically infinite game.
If you are one of the people who play for bigger numbers, what are you playing for if they can't get any bigger anymore?
Oh brilliant yeah Diablo is totally not a gear grind. No one farms in those games. Are you just posting ironically or do you seriously buy this stuff you are saying?
I just have to assume you are trolling me at this point, oh wait I said I'd put on you ignore. Let me get right on that.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Jesus.
I gave example of Diablo just to show that only if a RPG has gear farming grind doesn't mean it is same as what exists in WOW or FFXIV. EQ and Diablo end game has nothing in common neither does FFXIV with EQ.
No where i said Diablo doesn't have gear farming. Your inability to read and comprehend is staggering really.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney