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Would you play a MMORPG without character-progression?
Yalexy
Member UncommonPosts: 1,058
Hello there.
I'm really bored to death by all the leveling and skill-progression-systems in MMOs and RPGs.
Lately I've played ME:Trilogy and TES:Skyrim LE, and what struck me was the fact, that I absolutely could've lived without any character-progression at all, but rather have your character setup in the beginning (applying skillpoints into talents you want to play with) and then only have some slight item-progression of maybe 20% stronger then the starter-gear. Especially TES:Skyrim would've totally profited from this kind of system.
Back in the days when I was playing Pen&Paper RPGs, there was this awesome title of Shadowrun, where you didn't have any character-progression at all, but only some variation in equipment and the possibility to enhance your character with implants, which came with drawbacks.
Would you play a MMORPG, where there wouldn't be any character-progression, but only some little variation in item-strength. There would be a gazillion of different skins however, so that you could make your character look like noone else.
The reason to play a MMORPG for me is the RPG-part, and this doesn't require any character-progression, and it would make balancing the game way easier to start with aswell.
In addition, instead of making a skill- or level-system the devs could spend way more time in creating content.
Comments
We must be running out of things to discuss here.
How about an MMO that just consists of creating a character. Like you know a gazillion options for character creation. When your done with your character the game never loads because there is no game, you just make another character.
I can come up dumb ideas for MMO's all day long.
There wouldn't be less features actually. You just wouldn't need to level up first or otherwise improve character-skills.
Look at Skyrim for example and let's say you're given 60 skill-perks at charcter-creation to build your character the way you want. This wouldn't take anything away from the game imho.
For you it may be a stupid idea, but I'm rather serious about this topic, as I want to see more RPG in my MMO and less character-progression.
In a MMORPG this would lead to a situation, where people would've characters not able to do certain content on their own, because they didn't chose the skills to do so, and suddenly they would be required to team up with others, who would have the macthing skill-set.
No balancing-issues aswell, as the devs could tune the skills right away. And it would be awesome for open world PvP, as every player would be as strong as the others right away... no ganking noobs anymore.
i would prefer that same example but without the 60 skill perks at the beginning. Instead i just earn them by doing any tipe of content, even crafting. Instead of having numbers on my character to level up. As i keep gaining points to improve my character by just playing the game it still feels like i am progressing while my character gets stronger and stills remains with zero levels. TSW tried this but did it wrong, instead they put the levels on the skills so its basically on the same boat as a character level based game unlocking skills on a linear chain and with an exp bar.
Why would you need to get your character stronger over time? It has nothing to do with roleplaying actually.
There's tons of games without character-progression, like Battlefield for example and they still have a campaign to play through and you can only somewhat tweak your equipment.
Leveling up, be it character-level or skills allways leads to the fact, that there'll be content you can't access right away, requiring you to grind your way up first, and that's exactly the thing I hate the most.
I played EvE Online for 7 years, because you could take part in the universe right away, even if you just started playing the game. And yes, even in a Rifter you were a valuable asset, if you listened to the veterans and did what they wanted you to do.
No better memories really than flying in a fleet a week after joining EvE, flying a Slacher equipped with nothing but a MWD and a warp-disruptor
Exactly, such a game would emphasize on roleplaying actually then just beating the content.
Sure, there would be lot's of PvE-content aswell, but you could choose the the content right away you'd like to do, instead of having to follow the leveling-stuff first. Or you could create a crafter or a gatherer or whatever and join a guild to conquer some territory and build a castle etc. You could aswell create an explorer with a set of skills needed to do non-combat PvE-content, solving riddles, picking locks, etc.
There's so much more possibilities.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Where did it ever say, that you need character-progression to make it an MMORPG? Like I said, there was Pen&Paper RPGs like Shadowrun that didn't have character-progression.
I guess I am having trouble understanding an RPG with no progression (levels, skills, anything) or development of any sort. That's typically considered a staple. I have never played Shadowrun. But every RPG I ever played had a form of progression. Do you have any examples that are recent computer games?
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
I'm definitely on the same page as you. I'm hoping to see something like this in Everquest Next, but those are just hopes and I'll likely be disappointed. Removing character progression would also allow players to mod the game easier in order to create fun content that devs wouldn't necessarily spend their valuable time on. It could be like a foundry but with a much much larger range of options. I could easily reference Minecraft for this. Modded additions to Minecraft are so common and add vast amounts of items, machines, etc. that definitely enhance the gameplay and overall playability of the game. I've been waiting for a game like this for a while.
Any idea that removes even more from the genre in place of convenience or vanity is a bad idea. but that's just my opinion and I know these days I am the minority. So bring on the fluffy hats and bunny slippers and don't forget to put them all in the cash shop.
I guess I am having trouble understanding an RPG with no progression (levels, skills, anything) or development of any sort. That's typically considered a staple. I have never played Shadowrun. But every RPG I ever played had a form of progression. Do you have any examples that are recent computer games?
If you play the campaign of Battlefield or Call of Duty you don't gain levels or skillpoints either, and these campaigns play basically like a RPG.
Or take Baldurs Gate. Allthough there's progression, the progression is so little, that it could've lived without it actually. After playing through the whole game your char was what, LvL 9 or 10 maybe.
I don't wanna do away customization, but I want it in the very beginning when you create your character, and the progression would be more in the way of some better equipment that is maybe some 20% better in the tops compared to the starter-gear.
The progression isn't really needed, when the game is more about roleplaying, politics, waging wars against other guilds, being the best crafter or trader, or being the guy that knows every little corner of the world etc.
The progression would be to make yourself a name in the game everyone remembers.
Look at EvE Online. Allthough there's character-progression, the character-progression is not what the game is about really and some of the most respected and known persons never even fired a single shot, like Chribba.
I'm not talking about vanity-items in a cashshop at all. I'm speaking of a P2P or B2P without cashshop here.
Basically I'm speaking of something like EvE Online without character-progression, but with the system of creating your character at the beginning, choosing the skills you want to play with.
I'm speaking of a game, where all stuff is crafted by players and PvE only rewards you with ressources needed to craft those items.
I'm speaking of a game, where the crafters can experiment with their recipies, adding different stats, different colours, different designs etc, being reliant on others who gather these materials, because if you chose to be a crafter you would've no real combat-skills to run dungeons for example, but you would only be given the option of doing non-combat-missions.
It would basically be real roleplaying again.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
This is why I love topics like this.
I agree with both the OP and Bigmamajama on this.
Got me a real good laugh out of it too, thank you!
There were always be progress. I'm guessing what you mean is leveling. You would still need to upgrade your character over time. Template characters with say a stamp on when you can redesign your template would work and as suggested, it would see min/ maxing and FotM templating in under a month of launch but if each aspect of a template was distinct and there wasn't a hard focus on specific aspects of game play it would work.
Would I try an MMO that offered a custom system of templates over leveling? Of course. EVE has how many ships, each with a Job? SWG PreCU had 250 points, you could distribute and redistribute. Many games have sub skills you can move about like traits in LotRO. Final Fantasy games had you find Espers and Materia that you equipped and those defined your abilities.
It can be done, it has been done. It's about finding the right combination of features though. MMO's seem to want to sell on one defining feature and that seems to be the downfall.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I have played such a game...and it is probably one of the more fun MMOs I've experienced. It has progression, BUT that progression lies in your own skill at the game. The MMO of which I speak is World War II Online (aka Battlefield Europe).
There are some unlocks which I wouldn't really call progression...more horizontal really. As I said, the real progression involves you as a player getting better. No leveling or uber gear crutches.
This sounds like my PnP Game Master to be honest. Every time my friends and I get together with him, he throws a new RPG system at us and asks us to roll up characters. We never play an actual adventure anymore....
I'm totally joking but I can see how this would actually be appealing to some people. Character creation means little to nothing to me, its all about character development while your playing. Give me a blank slate of a character and let me build him from scratch bit by bit through gameplay, improving my skills based on what I enjoy doing, drawing a bow, jumping, sprinting etc.