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I hope this game isn't "fun"
Seventhprophet
Member Posts: 6
There are many "fun" games out now, with smooth combat and quick action. These games are awesome, and hold our attention for maybe a month or so. No matter how novel the mechanics of a games combat system is, the truth is, you'll master it, and It will be boring.
The last few big name mmorpgs have tried to capture this video game combat style and have succeeded to a small degree. Combat is fun. But it comes at a trade off.
Class roles become almost non existent. Everyone become some form of dps bot, jumping and flipping around for no reason. So much so that no one really talks any more. There is no reason to formulate a plan. No reason to ask about builds or anything really. You just go, and treat it like the action game that mmorpgs have evolved into. If things go badly, fingers are blindly pointed. Where at one time you would know if it were an agro issue or dps or healing style, Now, outside of seeing someone stand in the fire, people only have a vague notion of what's going wrong when things go bad. Usually groups disband with finger pointing and "newb" declarations.
Where in classic MMOs you would see a group change tactics, talk it out, try new things and spend hours in a single dungeon. It's where friendships and memories were made. It's a huge reason why we clung to those games for so long. It kept our interest. And yes, when you had that many moving parts it took a lot of concentration, skill and awareness in order to succeed. The more modern games move towards video game controller action, the more dumbed down and simplistic they get. If you know how to jump around and click two to four buttons quickly, identify an attack animation and pick the right way to duck, you're a pro. Outside of that, what does class choice matter at that point?
I'm hoping that the "next" thing in MMOs isn't the same old thing that seem to be destroying them the last couple of years. Yes those MMOs were fun. But how many really kept the attention of the masses for any amount of time?
Comments
Troll? But I'll Bite.
Every MMO that has kept peoples attention has been 'fun'. What your describing is a quick fix. The so called failed MMOs with action combat are anything but actual failures they are just not your cup of tea. Fun is mandatory for every game including MMOs. Also the word Fun is subjective by everyone. What is Fun to you, is not Fun to someone else.
Its also likely that your burned out of MMOs. Your post screams of needing an addiction and not a fix.
I like your comments here OP. I think game pacing and voice are a part of this problem.
In a game like EQ/UO TeamSpeak's code wasn't even written yet. People communicated in game via text, and it allowed for more frequent, casual role-play.
The game pacing understood that you couldn't call out things on TeamSpeak/Vent and therefore the game's were paced much slower to allow for tactics, etc while you fought. A wipe would cause considerable conversation on strategy as the consequences were also typically more intense.
I hope this game isn't action- style as well. There are plenty of titles (and good ones) for action players, especially single player games.
So you didn't like GW2 action combat and lump them all into that one group ?
GW2 had non-trinity mechanics. It wasn't for everyone...I hated it.
Tera had action combat that was trinity based and the best combat I've played in any mmo.
Both action combat and they sit on opposite ends of my fun scale.
I had the exact opposite experience, interestingly enough.
I hated the rooting and animation locks in TERA and loved GW2 combat.
If only i could get GW2's combat in a trinity based system with specific combat roles, then I'd be happy.
I guess the trinity mechanic of it does play a part, I've never played Tera, so I can't comment on it. I really do think the lack of accurate targeting really cripples this style of play more than anything. Was Tera a tab target system? I think what bugs me the most of the new action style is how dumbed down the game gets in order to amp up reaction times and speed of play.
I know you can't target any one game mechanic and say that is the the core of what's missing from an experience. I don't think the trinity mechanic is at fault. Neverwinter attempted trinity combat with soft target combat, and it seems watered down again.
You did make a good point though
I agree it would be interesting. I'm not against the trinity, I just stated I needed a break from it, and I've had one now, so if anything comes along with a trinity that has GOOD combat, I'll probably like it. And I also agree about TERA. "True action combat" that wasn't true action combat. 2 out of 3 ain't bad, I hear.
I'd like to see a combat system with the best of both worlds - where players can aim attacks and be mobile without requiring a hard target and where there are also specific roles to be filled out for group play. As long as players can still progress in the traditional RPG manner and build their skills the way they want, there's nothing less "tactical" about action combat.
Some skills were lock on like single target heals. You'd target a player, use the skill to lock it, then use it again to heal. Tera had what most people consider soft targeting. You had a target on screen and where you aimed it is where you're attack went. It had lock on targets for skills that needed it and FPS style aiming for melee/range and ground targeting for AOE.
Neverwinter was just watered down everything.
This sentence contains the most clarity of truth in a given situation that I have ever seen. It defines, in a complete way, every single person on this site. Its why so much hate builds here. Its why we're considered among the most vitriol filled posters on the net. Our drugs have stopped working and we cannot find a new one to fill the void.
You might have said that part from the cuff and without realizing it....but it is elegant in its simplicity and a perfectly executed thesis on this entire site.
I suspect your definition of fun is not on par with everyone else's. Or you wouldn't say something so silly as the words you posted.
When in the genre's existence did it become necessary to correlate fun with bad? Sounds ass backwards to me. If the game is fun, doesn't mean it can't also be hard, engaging and provide longevity. I honestly believe your missing the mark here. A game can be fun but also provide plenty of longevity.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
+1 I've stated similar things before, but of course people threw vegetables. Who brings tomatoes to an MMO forum anyway?
Good points. OP,you gave me a headache with your rant. I didn't like GW2 but there are many who love it. Different strokes...
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I agree with OP.
From how I read it, "fun" is now equal to easy mode. DPS DPS DPS, no team work, no "skill", no real challenge. Just get in there, mash a small number of buttons, win, and get a prize. I think this is why so many games don't succeed. There just isn't a challenge or reason to keep coming back.
As much as devs and society in general tries to make everyone a winner, I think that deep down we want to fail. I do at least. When I run into a mob or player, I want a high chance of losing. Trying, failing, and trying again is what makes us better and want to keep coming back.
It's been so long since I lost badly in a game, logged off, and came back the next time more determined then ever. It's usually, win win win, that was "fun", guess I'll come back again...until I don't.
I like GW2/Tera combat and hope some of it makes it into EQN, but I also like a bit more depth to playing and higher chance of losing. That can come from harder content in general, but to me, requires a system where team work and a larger skill/ability pool is needed. Not so much as WoW, where you are playing against the UI more then the game itself, but a healthy mix.
I hope EQN is extremely "fun", but I hope that comes from being challenged constantly and never mastering anything.
When you can't get any better, learn anything new, and simply win all the time, the game has failed. I think this happens in PVE just as much in PVP. I've watched many PVP/FFA games die because individuals and guilds hit that skill cap so quickly and find they have no challenge. Running over unskilled players or mob AI is only mildly amusing for so long.
I hope EQN requires more then hitting a sequence of buttons correctly or giving up on real life to run raids over and over to get sparkly gear and instantly becoming better than those that can't do the same.
We need to get back to having to use our grey matter. Be it solo or hopefully in a group and have distinct roles and tactics. I know the younger generations have less attention spans these days, but I would love to get back to fights that take a while and go back and forth, not one side wins or loses in blink of an eye.
Not sure if this is what the OP was going for, but that is what I am hoping "fun" looks like in EQN.
First off.. Stop using Fun like its a swear word.. LOL Fun is completely perception based and a personal taste issue. Saying that you hope the game isn't "fun" and then listing the reasons other games are not to your taste is basically saying that you find the games fun but don't like them at the same time. Complete oxymoron.
Better to say "I hope this game has everything I want and nothing that "Fill in random release from the last 5 years here" . And to be honest, until they actually tell us what the game will and wont have its all just guessing and hoping.
I really fear for these forums once the reveal on August 2nd happens. Its going to be a bloody nasty mess in here for a while because no matter what, EQN wont have everything that every person (Particularly some of the more vocal posters around here) want and the blow back is going to be troll fest.
I would to see in EQN an hybrid combat system...i like some of the innovations introduced in GW2 but not all, i like a faster and more dinamic combat as GW2, i dont like dodge based on the player's reflexes.
I think that defensive skills like dodge, parry, block should be based on your race characteristic scores, on your class and on your class build.
So for example an halfling should have an higher % do dodge than an ogre, a defensive warrior should have an higher % of parry than a dps warrior and so on.
So in general i agree with OP.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
I think you missed the point here.
I'm also sure the OP completely understands that games need a level of "fun" to them. Yet there are many that feel an MMO needs something more than just "fun" to be a truly sustainable experience. Otherwise we're left with games, rather than community experiences. Which if that floats your boat good for you, I just prefer to get that from games that do it better (single-player or co-op).
Games centered around "fun", (notice the quotations... Which implies in my usage games that focus on minute by minute activity that leads to nothing) stagnate fairly quickly in this day and age. I feel that's because the developers completely ignore meaningful additions to their games. They instead rely on small distractions to keep people mesmerized rather than truly entertained. A good example of this is the backlash GW2 has been getting for their "fun" additions. Typically from those who want something deeper to keep them occupied for longer periods of time. This really has nothing to do with being addicted, it's simply a matter of game additions creating longevity for their collective players.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
From a developer point of view, they should stop focussing on creating a fun game experience first and for all and then create a world around that.
instead they should build a world where its fun and exciting to be in..
While it almost sounds the same, it will yield so much different results.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Pretty good way to sum it up, too bad many do not know the difference.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I agree really. I like action combat on a console since it tends to be really well done.
The issue with putting it an mmo is that it will not be as good and action combat kills socialising since it's a button mashing fest. GW2 and Tera is the opposite of what EQ was about, they're console games.
I hope EQNext has tactical group gameplay, although since it might come to PS4 I won't get my hopes up too much.
In EQ1 clerics had a 10 second cast full heal .
In Rift if I cast a heal that took 10 seconds the tank would be dead .
Combat is a lot more fast paced in Rift compared to EQ1 .
I remember playing enchanter and keeping mobs mezed so group could single target mobs .
In RIFT , people use AOE and crowd control is unknown in that game .
The mechanics in todays games are a bit more advanced but it would be nice to have more CC in games .
I think you can have action combat without having horrible pve (GW2). Just because its called action combat, doesn't mean it has to be nonstop action. EQ had a lot of downtime which fostered other group activities like actually communicating. I hope to see some downtime again in EQ Next, even if its not to such a drastic degree.
OK if you think EQ clerics only had a low mana cost 10 sec massive heal then you haven't played the game for about 10 years .You never played a chanter or healer in EQ if you think it is slow paced . Just because it don't have that silly jumping about all over the place and using the same silly moves for every fight that make the game way too easy like TERA don't make the game slow paced.
Because we can have time to chat between pulls and go have a ciggy or what ever don't make it slow paced. Action combat is for single player games where you can pull the whole zone and if you die well i will just reload. It don't work in mmo because if you have a whole group rolling about dodging hits and hitting the ground with your sword instead of the mob you will get agro from other mobs unless you make it like tera or other mmos where the mobs are too easy or they are so spaced apart it is also too easy.
Tab targeting works in mmos because it means the whole group can work as one not as 6 solo players in the same spot.
No, I don't think I did. Re-Read his post. He makes examples about groups failing and the inevitable insults that occur. The reason this did not happen as much when MMORPGs were not popular is because people remembered your name. It wasn't just a random nobody that you would ever run into again, it was someone you probably already ran by a few times.
Not to mention I remember waiting hours in AO, EQ2, DAOC to get groups to level up in. I remember soloing being completely useless unless you twinked the crap out of your character and chose a specific class that was good at soloing(not so much EQ2). I also remember if you didn't do those things and tried to solo it was still more worth while to sit in a local hub for a couples hours trying to get a group than soloing.
This issue here and he plainly states is that he needs a game that fills an addiction, not a game to be played and enjoyed.
And if you read what I said the word Fun is a completely subjective word. Fun for him could be reading an Organic Chemistry Text book and answering all the questions. Fun could be cooking food, or baking, cleaning house. Its a completely subjective word that represents an positive emotional response to stimuli.
The so called small distractions claim are there are in every single old MMO you have ever played. The difference is you don't have a tight nit community that you want to prove something to, so sitting and waiting/starting a group for 2 hours before you actually play the game is a deal breaker.
I hate to say such a cliche thing but his post just screams nostalgia of a time that no longer exists. That tight nit community for MMOs is out there, but you have to find that tight nit group now otherwise your just a nobody and is why games feel empty to you.
I've enjoyed both - games with the classic combat system and with "action combat". I honestly don't care which one EQN uses. As long as there is no f***Ing global cooldown. That's a terrible feature that makes all combat really lame and choppy.
As far as people not talking, I think it's more the fault of the auto-grouping tools that have become popular. In EQ2 (manual grouping), no matter how bad your pickup group for a dungeon is, people still talk - say hello, discuss buffs, discuss strats/scripts, etc.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
New mmorpg combat like GW2 and Tera are more situational.
Old mmorpg combat is situational to a small degree, but mostly you attack the same way to do the most damage, heal the most etc. Tanks are pretty much the most situational role in old mmorpgs but not close to the combat of new mmorpg combat.
If they want to do it right, Vanguard has a very good combat system except it could need an autoattack and a bit more movement included. I really liek the chain, defensive and spell skills you get. 1 skill when you crit, 1 skill to support allies and 1 skill to reflect an attack/a spell.