Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P. More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.
Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.
You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.
What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?
I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.
The difference will be clear later in the game. Those games shared one thing in common. Resources were invested early in teh game experience but fell off the map later on. I didn't play AOC, but read up where enough people said the game was great early, but fell apart after a certain zone. SWTOR is great game while leveling. But hitting cap in a week and very limited options to do after that are what killed the sub base. Had SWTOR had anything that even closely resebled an Endgame, it probably would still be Sub based. These games failed in their own rights, not because players don't want P2P games anymore. Will FF14 be different? I can't say just yet. I can only hope. But I'm willing enough to give it a shot.
And in 3 months when end game is not living up to what you or others want, is it worth 15 bucks a month then? Or like most P2P games, once they have failed you its rare you ever go back? I have been burned by X game because it fell short, so am I willing to drop 15 bucks to see if its changed? Thats one area P2P loses. I got really mad at GW2 but because its F2P I have gone back to check it out on and off and I am a little shocked for a game that made me so mad I am playing it again. If it had a sub I would not have. I have dropped money on the game as well =-)
How many people who play FF14 will love it from launch? You know there is a % of the gamers that will drop it. How many could they win back if they had F2P with a sub option to join end game? How many people that pass on buying the game would buy it and sub if they got to try it risk free to end game? This is another area pure P2P games fail at.
I'm sure I'll be fine. I remained Subbed to Rift right up until SL Xpac. I tried SL and didn't like it. but up to then, I thought Rift was well worth it for me. I'm sure FF14 will be right up my alley. Well, for as long as they don't have a Cash Shop.
Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P. More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.
Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.
You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.
What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?
I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.
The difference will be clear later in the game. Those games shared one thing in common. Resources were invested early in teh game experience but fell off the map later on. I didn't play AOC, but read up where enough people said the game was great early, but fell apart after a certain zone. SWTOR is great game while leveling. But hitting cap in a week and very limited options to do after that are what killed the sub base. Had SWTOR had anything that even closely resebled an Endgame, it probably would still be Sub based. These games failed in their own rights, not because players don't want P2P games anymore. Will FF14 be different? I can't say just yet. I can only hope. But I'm willing enough to give it a shot.
And in 3 months when end game is not living up to what you or others want, is it worth 15 bucks a month then? Or like most P2P games, once they have failed you its rare you ever go back? I have been burned by X game because it fell short, so am I willing to drop 15 bucks to see if its changed? Thats one area P2P loses. I got really mad at GW2 but because its F2P I have gone back to check it out on and off and I am a little shocked for a game that made me so mad I am playing it again. If it had a sub I would not have. I have dropped money on the game as well =-)
How many people who play FF14 will love it from launch? You know there is a % of the gamers that will drop it. How many could they win back if they had F2P with a sub option to join end game? How many people that pass on buying the game would buy it and sub if they got to try it risk free to end game? This is another area pure P2P games fail at.
I'm sure I'll be fine. I remained Subbed to Rift right up until SL Xpac. I tried SL and didn't like it. but up to then, I thought Rift was well worth it for me. I'm sure FF14 will be right up my alley. Well, for as long as they don't have a Cash Shop.
Well you're going to be exhausted because there are a lot of us. Just look at the thread you're posting in. There are enough anti-cash shop players to fill up a subscription only server.
Buying experience potions are strictly P2W in any scenario. If you feel that is an opinion, good for you. But quite honestly I'm not alone and eventually a game (or server) will come out that caters to our crowd.
Cash shops also break immersion. The cash shop makes no sense in the virtual world. The cash shop is a window on your screen that takes real world money and makes things happen in game. That is retarded. That isn't even a gaming experience. It makes no sense in the roleplaying setting.This is a strong opinion felt by many. Once a less greedy company comes up with a server or game that caters to immersion, you will see it become very popular amongst hardcore players. Maybe EQN will do it, maybe not. But the desire for it will still be there until a game offers it.
Someone else's level has nothing to do with you or your enjoyment. Unless your enjoyment is based solely on Powerleveling and getting a "server first" to cap, or being the first person to loot an item. If that is where you derive your happiness, then I would say the problem with MMORPGs are you. I surely hope you're not one of those.
Microtransactions aren't going anywhere. They're pretty much the future for the gaming industry in general. Especially for online games where putting a body in the world is extremely valuable, even if they don't pay.
If you can't feel "immersed" in a game because there's a UI button you can press to access a cash shop, then you got some serious problems to contend with on an individual level.
And no, the numbers don't lie. "P2P hardcores", like myself, and maybe you, are a drastic minority. Calling that playerbase niche is even stretch. It's a tiny fraction of the gaming community, sadly, but a reality non-the-less.
This statement is absolutely ridiculous. The reason people play MMO's and spend time working toward their goals is so they can show off their accomplishments to everyone. Whether you believe it or not, people like to brag what they've worked hard for. In-game levels are no exception to this.
When you introduce content that is purchasable with real currency, all of the equivalent in-game assets will instantly have less worth. If I spent 100 hours farming and grinding for a certain item or level, and then player B just comes out and is able to get the same accomplishment just buy purchasing it with real money - that content I worked so hard for won't be nearly as satisfying nor accomplishing.
And arguing that players don't or shouldn't care about what other people attain in-game is absurd because this is literally why we play multi-player games. We enjoy sharing our experiences and accomplishments with other people.
It's literally the way YOU play multi-player games. Speak for yourself. If you want to tie your sense of accomplishment and achievement to what others do and how others perceive you then go for it, but don't speak as though that is what we all do when clearly there are those who don't feel or play that way.
By your logic you don't even need a cash shop to invalidate your accomplishments. If you take 100 hours to do something that someone else does in 2 then your accomplishment means nothing. For example raiders have sold slots to raids to gear up players. They can gear up in a matter of hours what might take you weeks or months to accomplish. That can and has been done fully under p2p.
Exactly. SOE's cash shops have nothing that hurt the game or the community. So what if someone pays $1000 in exp potions and beats you to lvl 50 a week or two before you do. Does that somehow invalidate your accomplishments? Are you some how less accomplished because of this? It makes no sense. Enjoy the game and shut up. Come August 2nd you guys are going to be begging for beta keys. Why? Because SOE's games are awesome and EQ is king. Enough said.
Well you're going to be exhausted because there are a lot of us. Just look at the thread you're posting in. There are enough anti-cash shop players to fill up a subscription only server.
Buying experience potions are strictly P2W in any scenario. If you feel that is an opinion, good for you. But quite honestly I'm not alone and eventually a game (or server) will come out that caters to our crowd.
Cash shops also break immersion. The cash shop makes no sense in the virtual world. The cash shop is a window on your screen that takes real world money and makes things happen in game. That is retarded. That isn't even a gaming experience. It makes no sense in the roleplaying setting.This is a strong opinion felt by many. Once a less greedy company comes up with a server or game that caters to immersion, you will see it become very popular amongst hardcore players. Maybe EQN will do it, maybe not. But the desire for it will still be there until a game offers it.
Someone else's level has nothing to do with you or your enjoyment. Unless your enjoyment is based solely on Powerleveling and getting a "server first" to cap, or being the first person to loot an item. If that is where you derive your happiness, then I would say the problem with MMORPGs are you. I surely hope you're not one of those.
Microtransactions aren't going anywhere. They're pretty much the future for the gaming industry in general. Especially for online games where putting a body in the world is extremely valuable, even if they don't pay.
If you can't feel "immersed" in a game because there's a UI button you can press to access a cash shop, then you got some serious problems to contend with on an individual level.
And no, the numbers don't lie. "P2P hardcores", like myself, and maybe you, are a drastic minority. Calling that playerbase niche is even stretch. It's a tiny fraction of the gaming community, sadly, but a reality non-the-less.
This statement is absolutely ridiculous. The reason people play MMO's and spend time working toward their goals is so they can show off their accomplishments to everyone. Whether you believe it or not, people like to brag what they've worked hard for. In-game levels are no exception to this.
When you introduce content that is purchasable with real currency, all of the equivalent in-game assets will instantly have less worth. If I spent 100 hours farming and grinding for a certain item or level, and then player B just comes out and is able to get the same accomplishment just buy purchasing it with real money - that content I worked so hard for won't be nearly as satisfying nor accomplishing.
And arguing that players don't or shouldn't care about what other people attain in-game is absurd because this is literally why we play multi-player games. We enjoy sharing our experiences and accomplishments with other people.
It's literally the way YOU play multi-player games. Speak for yourself. If you want to tie your sense of accomplishment and achievement to what others do and how others perceive you then go for it, but don't speak as though that is what we all do when clearly there are those who don't feel or play that way.
By your logic you don't even need a cash shop to invalidate your accomplishments. If you take 100 hours to do something that someone else does in 2 then your accomplishment means nothing. For example raiders have sold slots to raids to gear up players. They can gear up in a matter of hours what might take you weeks or months to accomplish. That can and has been done fully under p2p.
Explain to me why exactly this is even an issue and why this thread exists if it's "literally just me"? What would be the purpose of progression in an online multiplayer game if it weren't for boasting and showing off our accomplishments? You're literally living in a dream world if you think humans don't like to brag. If you can't understand this, I refer you to this:
People's skills in a video-game have no detrimental causes to my accomplishment, this is an aspect of reality that can't be changed and therefor plays no unfair advantage. It just seems you completely missed my point. Cash shop items provide and unfair advantage and handicap to those with the deepest pockets, regardless of you what you define as "pay to win." Content is content.
This pretty much depends on the game design, for me.
If it is a game which is based on design where you quickly level to max level, get capped and then char progression stops, it is not a big deal. Not that I would be interested in such game anyway.
However, in a game which is based on design with longterm vertical character progression, it may represent a serious problem.
Based on SOE's history - they've added experience potions, fast mounts, larger bags, and tried to add power-ups to PS2, you can bet there is going to be some P2W stuff in the item shop, and the item shop is going to be shoved in your face every time you log in.
They can't help themselves. They've shown no history of being able to control themselves, so there's basically no evidence that supports they will be able to control themselves now, just because they have a new game.
All I am hoping is that the imbalance issues are not too glaring, and that the OOH BUY ME NOW, pop-ups aren't too prevalent.
I trust them to make a good game, and I'm excited about it, but based on history and applying a little logic, you can see that the bean counters are making these decisions, not the game makers.
None of the things you listed are P2W in the slightest.
The fact that there's a UI button to buy cash shop items is hardly "in your face".
No actually all of the thing he mentioned are 100% P2W. Winning in an MMO is purely player crafting and player accomplishments. There is no "You Won!" end game. It is a real virtual world that is continuous, with achievements throughout the lifespan of your character.
Buying these achievements is pay to win. Let's look at all his examples that you claim are not pay to win.
hypothetical products in cash shop:
Large backpack - Player 1 could have crafted and sold this item. He would have made in game money, experience and possibly friends (depending on if there is an auction house). But nope, just throw all that in the trash. Player 2 just bought a backpack in the cash shop. Player 1 "lost" at this aspect of the game.
Experience potions - Let's take a PVP scenario. Player 1 buys an XP potion in the cash shop. He levels faster, buys more potions, keeps leveling. More levels = stronger stats and access to more powerful spells/abilities. Player 1 goes into a battleground and kills Player 2 who is a lower level but spent just as much time trying to level but didn't purchase tons of xp potions. Player 1 just payed to win. A flat rate subscription could have avoided this issue. Also, take away the cash shop and have high level PLAYERS make XP potions. That is not only fair, but it adds to the gameplay. Cash shops take away from gameplay.
Fast mounts - Mounts could be caught, trained and sold by players. Or they could be rare high level achievements that add to the gameplay experience. Or Player 1 could just buy one. Player 2 earned one but who cares right? Nothing is special at that point. Your achievements directly affect the social aspect of the game. (this is a massive multi player game, so don't throw the "who cares what other people think" statement at me. play offline games if that is your attitude.)
ANYTHING sold in a cash shop takes away from the game, the players, the crafting, the immersion, you name it.
Can you imagine if you had a character on Amazon and you bought items and weapons to dress it up? Have you ever played Playstation Home? It is a horrible experience and sadly more MMO's are becoming like that.
Then I guess according to your definition of P2W almost every MMO out now must be P2W
Guess your mmo pickings in the future are gonna be SLIMMMMM if you consider these items P2W...........
Yeah, I don't know. This is the thing that keeps me fairly skeptical about EQN. It can be the best game ever, but the cash shop may ruin it.
I don't really like the way EQII's cash shop is done. It's too visible, too obvious, and getting constant reminders about a sub doesn't help. I want to forget the cash shop exists. I don't care what's good for companies, but I am not convinced F2P is that great for players.
There were really only 2 games where I didn't mind some sort of a real world cash tie, which were GW2 and EVE. Mostly because, in both cases, they were integrated into the game in a hidden manner. Rift wasn't that bad, as well, but I am not sure where they're going with it, and Rift developed issues with immersion breaking earlier than that.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Originally posted by niceguy3978 Is there a f2p game that has a cash shop with nothing other than vanity items? I can't think of any that don't at least have xp boosts.
Path of Exile, Dota 2, Guild Wars 1, Team Fortress 2, etc
It's entirely possible to be profitable and only sell vanity items.
Originally posted by niceguy3978 Is there a f2p game that has a cash shop with nothing other than vanity items? I can't think of any that don't at least have xp boosts.
Path of Exile, Dota 2, Guild Wars 1, Team Fortress 2, etc
It's entirely possible to be profitable and only sell vanity items.
I should have been more specific about mmo's as a more apples to apples comparison. I really can't think of a f2p mmo that has only vanity items. While it is debatable if Guild Wars is/was an mmo, it was never f2p.
And in 3 months when end game is not living up to what you or others want, is it worth 15 bucks a month then? Or like most P2P games, once they have failed you its rare you ever go back? I have been burned by X game because it fell short, so am I willing to drop 15 bucks to see if its changed? Thats one area P2P loses. I got really mad at GW2 but because its F2P I have gone back to check it out on and off and I am a little shocked for a game that made me so mad I am playing it again. If it had a sub I would not have. I have dropped money on the game as well =-)
How many people who play FF14 will love it from launch? You know there is a % of the gamers that will drop it. How many could they win back if they had F2P with a sub option to join end game? How many people that pass on buying the game would buy it and sub if they got to try it risk free to end game? This is another area pure P2P games fail at.
I'm sure I'll be fine. I remained Subbed to Rift right up until SL Xpac. I tried SL and didn't like it. but up to then, I thought Rift was well worth it for me. I'm sure FF14 will be right up my alley. Well, for as long as they don't have a Cash Shop.
Way to go at dodging my post and the questions.
I'm not dodging your question, I just don't think it's valid. Your question is entirely subjective and based on an assumption I don't think will happen as you say. (unless you have a crystal ball that I don't know about)
I meant what I said about Rift. I liked that game and stayed with it until the SL Xpac. I am certain that FF is at least as good as Rift. And even then, if it goes like Rift, 2 years before F2P, then that's 2 more years of a game with no Cash Shop I get to play.
Since we have no common ground to form a conversation on this topic, it's kind of pointless to continue, don't you think?
I am kinda strange when it comes to this issue. I don't like cash shops, but could care less if they sell health or exp potions or that kind of stuff. The things I hate to see them sell is the vanity items, there the stuff I see in game and kills all my sense of a world for me.
Nothing like seeing everybody running around looking all uber at level ten, riding these mounts and they hadn't done anything in game to get them. Everybody gives in on the Vanity items and I just can't rap my head around it, what was the point in playing the game?
What Ill never understand about all of this is, why do people care if someone beats them to max level and said person spends their own money doing it? I dont see getting beat to max level (for example, LOTRO, SWTOR) as a game breaking thing to me. Its a damn game. You are supposed to be playing it for your enjoyment and not worrying about what everyone else is doing in game.
A lot of old school EQ fans are very adamant about shinies and fame being earned, not handed out. I would much rather have subscription based compared to F2P, unfortunately it's very unlikely to happen after smed's very clear comments on how all games in this genre should be F2P now.
So we're left with this, people want a sub. server, thats not going to happen, at least not as clean cut as it sounds. If anything, they should have 'Legends' type servers that are only available to certain SOE customers that sign-up for station perks, not necessarily in-game things.
Originally posted by donjuanagain You are supposed to be playing it for your enjoyment and not worrying about what everyone else is doing in game.
Except this is MMO's we're talking about. They're all about what everyone else is doing in the game, that's the whole freaking point of playing an MMO in the first place.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Originally posted by niceguy3978 Is there a f2p game that has a cash shop with nothing other than vanity items? I can't think of any that don't at least have xp boosts.
It will seem like a "skill game" at first but when you are deep into it (they hope too deep to want to quit) you will realize it is actually a "money game".
Take a look at the FF14 threads. There are so many people willing to buy this game just on the basis that it has no cash shop. I'm one of them. At this point, the game doesn't even have to be the best game ever. It only needs to be decent and I'm all in. Who do I throw my money at? I've been in the beta and I love what I see so far. So, even if the game doesn't ever get any better, I'll be happy and I'll have my new "home" for as long as that game remains P2P. More and more people are beginning to see through the facade of a "Non-P2W" cash shop and realizing that it's not about what they sell, it's the fact they exist. They ruin the games and we are tired of seeing them.
Weird that that wasn't a hot topic when TOR was coming out, which was a "decent" themepark like FF14. I found the two games to be pretty similar actually, both focus on story, feature stylized art, have so so combat systems, sectioned off worlds (walls). Both adhere to the quest hub design, and both drew heavy inspiration from games like WOW. Character creation was also fairly similar.
You could draw a similar comparison with AOC, LOTOR,etc.. Yet the Sub only, no cash shop approach did nothing for any of those games in the end.
What's to stop the same thing happening to FF14?
I actually do like FF14 based on my time in Beta, felt the same way about TOR and AOC during their Beta's. I still like AOC quite a bit.
The difference will be clear later in the game. Those games shared one thing in common. Resources were invested early in teh game experience but fell off the map later on. I didn't play AOC, but read up where enough people said the game was great early, but fell apart after a certain zone. SWTOR is great game while leveling. But hitting cap in a week and very limited options to do after that are what killed the sub base. Had SWTOR had anything that even closely resebled an Endgame, it probably would still be Sub based. These games failed in their own rights, not because players don't want P2P games anymore. Will FF14 be different? I can't say just yet. I can only hope. But I'm willing enough to give it a shot.
And in 3 months when end game is not living up to what you or others want, is it worth 15 bucks a month then? Or like most P2P games, once they have failed you its rare you ever go back? I have been burned by X game because it fell short, so am I willing to drop 15 bucks to see if its changed? Thats one area P2P loses. I got really mad at GW2 but because its F2P I have gone back to check it out on and off and I am a little shocked for a game that made me so mad I am playing it again. If it had a sub I would not have. I have dropped money on the game as well =-)
How many people who play FF14 will love it from launch? You know there is a % of the gamers that will drop it. How many could they win back if they had F2P with a sub option to join end game? How many people that pass on buying the game would buy it and sub if they got to try it risk free to end game? This is another area pure P2P games fail at.
Actually...I have done this MANY times over the years with WoW. I quit for 6 months, pay $15 come back and check out what's new sometimes I stay longer than that month sometimes not.
Honestly....if $15 is an amount you have to even think about spending I really don't think gaming is for that person. Just my 2c....gaming is a luxury (mostly) in varying degrees.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Originally posted by niceguy3978 Is there a f2p game that has a cash shop with nothing other than vanity items? I can't think of any that don't at least have xp boosts.
League of Legends (not an RPG but MMO for sure).
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
I agree with you, this is why i would to play in subscription only server without a cash shop.
Howether i know that this kind of server will probably not implemented, so i hope that, at least, cash shop will sell only vanity items.
If EQN wil be a P2W game i will simply not play it.
No matter what someone will call it P2W because they cant afford the items offered in the store that they want.
Some people still live in the stone age and think that any cash shop is P2W and is immersive breaking. Which is as far from the truth as one can get. Cash shops designed with convenience in mind is perfectly acceptable because it allows some of us the possibility to exchange real life cash for time spent in game. I harken it back to my hate with WoW when you had those guys hanging around at the bank or the AH riding their leet mounts with top of the line gear, thinking they were king shit because they could waste 12+ hours a day playing a video game. Well a good cash shop will allow me to compete with those same asshats and their leetist mentality by buying things to make my life easier and to support the company more. The majority of people who are against them are the same ones like the OP who feel entitled to some special privileged In a video game because they spend more time in it.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I agree with you, this is why i would to play in subscription only server without a cash shop.
Howether i know that this kind of server will probably not implemented, so i hope that, at least, cash shop will sell only vanity items.
If EQN wil be a P2W game i will simply not play it.
No matter what someone will call it P2W because they cant afford the items offered in the store that they want.
Some people still live in the stone age and think that any cash shop is P2W and is immersive breaking. Which is as far from the truth as one can get. Cash shops designed with convenience in mind is perfectly acceptable because it allows some of us the possibility to exchange real life cash for time spent in game. I harken it back to my hate with WoW when you had those guys hanging around at the bank or the AH riding their leet mounts with top of the line gear, thinking they were king shit because they could waste 12+ hours a day playing a video game. Well a good cash shop will allow me to compete with those same asshats and their leetist mentality by buying things to make my life easier and to support the company more. The majority of people who are against them are the same ones like the OP who feel entitled to some special privileged In a video game because they spend more time in it.
You had me with you right up to the special privilege line. If there are rewards to be gained from playing the game over time, then they will accrue to players that play more first. That is not a special privilege.
Being able to buy those things online is taking a shortcut for cash, I guess that is why people call it Pay to Win.
I agree with you, this is why i would to play in subscription only server without a cash shop.
Howether i know that this kind of server will probably not implemented, so i hope that, at least, cash shop will sell only vanity items.
If EQN wil be a P2W game i will simply not play it.
No matter what someone will call it P2W because they cant afford the items offered in the store that they want.
Some people still live in the stone age and think that any cash shop is P2W and is immersive breaking. Which is as far from the truth as one can get. Cash shops designed with convenience in mind is perfectly acceptable because it allows some of us the possibility to exchange real life cash for time spent in game. I harken it back to my hate with WoW when you had those guys hanging around at the bank or the AH riding their leet mounts with top of the line gear, thinking they were king shit because they could waste 12+ hours a day playing a video game. Well a good cash shop will allow me to compete with those same asshats and their leetist mentality by buying things to make my life easier and to support the company more. The majority of people who are against them are the same ones like the OP who feel entitled to some special privileged In a video game because they spend more time in it.
But everyone's still approaching this from a Themepark mentality where It's OK as long as they Keep P2W items out. But EQN is supposed to be a sandbox.Traditionally, gear in sandbox games isn't permanent. It gets destroyed over time, lost, stolen looted then players have to constantly replace their stuff. Most items aren't character bound and can be traded so in a sandbox, gold is the balancer. And being able to buy gold in a sandbox is as P2W as it gets.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
It is snobbish.
And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it. SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games. I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).
Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.
One thing is clear. You and I have polar opposite taste in MMOs. And that's OK, I was introduced to FF14 beta by a friend who had 2 FF11 accounts and gave me one of his FF14 betas. I took the invite half heartedly recalling the last FF14 fiasco. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. 8/27 won't come soon enough.
So, if what I enjoy is snobbish to you, Call me a snob then. But I am more than ready willing and able to pay for a P2P game to have the real world isolated from my fantasy world. My feelings have nothing to do with P2W or unfair advantages or who gets what. What I care about are these Cash Shop driven games with their somewhat less than subtle filtering mechanics that "encourage" cash shop purchases. And the overall economic effect real money on a large scale has on the game itself.
No one is forcing you to play EQN, a game that will be free to play.
If you like FFXIV:ARR, awesome, play it. That game and EQN are completely different style of MMOs. FFXIV:ARR is more themepark and not that explorable -- dont let the zones outside cities fool you, its not really explorable. Combat is your typical tab target type system with "combo" twist and party twist stuff. If that is what you like, more power to you, I dont think Themepark games should be an insult, some love it and some want different.
I find it funny all the odd standards gamers are getting. Here is mine....
I will play any game thats fun and charges a FAIR price. Do that with P2P, B2P or F2P I dont care as long as they are charging a fair price for a fun game. If its pay to win and cost me 5 bucks a month to do so, Im fine with that. If its B2P with a vanity only cash shop, Im fine with that. If a stranger at the corner is giving away the game for a ride in his car, price is to high. Gamers are getting way to snobbish.
It's not snobbish. Many of us want a pure experience untainted by the outside world. What I want to play is a game with 100% equal opportunity across the board for all. I'll pay a fair price for that.
It is snobbish.
And nanfoodle is right, it's about the cost and how they handle it. SOE's models are amazingly fair and for me, personally, have been generally equal or less in price than P2P games. I have never felt that anyone has had a +1 over me because of the cash shop and they offer a great subscription model for all their games that allow you to experience the game to the fullest, outside of buying expansions (reasonable).
Have fun in FFXIV, I've been playing the beta and it's not even worth mentioning, frankly.
One thing is clear. You and I have polar opposite taste in MMOs. And that's OK, I was introduced to FF14 beta by a friend who had 2 FF11 accounts and gave me one of his FF14 betas. I took the invite half heartedly recalling the last FF14 fiasco. Well, I was very pleasantly surprised. 8/27 won't come soon enough.
So, if what I enjoy is snobbish to you, Call me a snob then. But I am more than ready willing and able to pay for a P2P game to have the real world isolated from my fantasy world. My feelings have nothing to do with P2W or unfair advantages or who gets what. What I care about are these Cash Shop driven games with their somewhat less than subtle filtering mechanics that "encourage" cash shop purchases. And the overall economic effect real money on a large scale has on the game itself.
No one is forcing you to play EQN, a game that will be free to play.
If you like FFXIV:ARR, awesome, play it. That game and EQN are completely different style of MMOs. FFXIV:ARR is more themepark and not that explorable -- dont let the zones outside cities fool you, its not really explorable. Combat is your typical tab target type system with "combo" twist and party twist stuff. If that is what you like, more power to you, I dont think Themepark games should be an insult, some love it and some want different.
What does any of that have to do with the effect real money will have on EQN's crafting and economy?
Comments
I'm sure I'll be fine. I remained Subbed to Rift right up until SL Xpac. I tried SL and didn't like it. but up to then, I thought Rift was well worth it for me. I'm sure FF14 will be right up my alley. Well, for as long as they don't have a Cash Shop.
All depends on the game how fun it is and how reasonable the prices are to me.
I liked TSWs' item shop, I thought Rift has a pretty good one atm. I also liked how LOTRO gave you some currency for the item shop as well.
Im more a B2P fan myself but to me I'd have to see all the parts before I judge the whole.
Playing: TSW, D&D NW, Defiance (more the tv show than game >.> ) LotRO, DCUO
Way to go at dodging my post and the questions.
Exactly. SOE's cash shops have nothing that hurt the game or the community. So what if someone pays $1000 in exp potions and beats you to lvl 50 a week or two before you do. Does that somehow invalidate your accomplishments? Are you some how less accomplished because of this? It makes no sense. Enjoy the game and shut up. Come August 2nd you guys are going to be begging for beta keys. Why? Because SOE's games are awesome and EQ is king. Enough said.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Explain to me why exactly this is even an issue and why this thread exists if it's "literally just me"? What would be the purpose of progression in an online multiplayer game if it weren't for boasting and showing off our accomplishments? You're literally living in a dream world if you think humans don't like to brag. If you can't understand this, I refer you to this:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304451104577390392329291890.html
People's skills in a video-game have no detrimental causes to my accomplishment, this is an aspect of reality that can't be changed and therefor plays no unfair advantage. It just seems you completely missed my point. Cash shop items provide and unfair advantage and handicap to those with the deepest pockets, regardless of you what you define as "pay to win." Content is content.
Then I guess according to your definition of P2W almost every MMO out now must be P2W
Guess your mmo pickings in the future are gonna be SLIMMMMM if you consider these items P2W...........
Yeah, I don't know. This is the thing that keeps me fairly skeptical about EQN. It can be the best game ever, but the cash shop may ruin it.
I don't really like the way EQII's cash shop is done. It's too visible, too obvious, and getting constant reminders about a sub doesn't help. I want to forget the cash shop exists. I don't care what's good for companies, but I am not convinced F2P is that great for players.
There were really only 2 games where I didn't mind some sort of a real world cash tie, which were GW2 and EVE. Mostly because, in both cases, they were integrated into the game in a hidden manner. Rift wasn't that bad, as well, but I am not sure where they're going with it, and Rift developed issues with immersion breaking earlier than that.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Path of Exile, Dota 2, Guild Wars 1, Team Fortress 2, etc
It's entirely possible to be profitable and only sell vanity items.
I should have been more specific about mmo's as a more apples to apples comparison. I really can't think of a f2p mmo that has only vanity items. While it is debatable if Guild Wars is/was an mmo, it was never f2p.
I'm not dodging your question, I just don't think it's valid. Your question is entirely subjective and based on an assumption I don't think will happen as you say. (unless you have a crystal ball that I don't know about)
I meant what I said about Rift. I liked that game and stayed with it until the SL Xpac. I am certain that FF is at least as good as Rift. And even then, if it goes like Rift, 2 years before F2P, then that's 2 more years of a game with no Cash Shop I get to play.
Since we have no common ground to form a conversation on this topic, it's kind of pointless to continue, don't you think?
I am kinda strange when it comes to this issue. I don't like cash shops, but could care less if they sell health or exp potions or that kind of stuff. The things I hate to see them sell is the vanity items, there the stuff I see in game and kills all my sense of a world for me.
Nothing like seeing everybody running around looking all uber at level ten, riding these mounts and they hadn't done anything in game to get them. Everybody gives in on the Vanity items and I just can't rap my head around it, what was the point in playing the game?
A lot of old school EQ fans are very adamant about shinies and fame being earned, not handed out. I would much rather have subscription based compared to F2P, unfortunately it's very unlikely to happen after smed's very clear comments on how all games in this genre should be F2P now.
So we're left with this, people want a sub. server, thats not going to happen, at least not as clean cut as it sounds. If anything, they should have 'Legends' type servers that are only available to certain SOE customers that sign-up for station perks, not necessarily in-game things.
Except this is MMO's we're talking about. They're all about what everyone else is doing in the game, that's the whole freaking point of playing an MMO in the first place.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Path of Exile
They will probably play it smart.
It will seem like a "skill game" at first but when you are deep into it (they hope too deep to want to quit) you will realize it is actually a "money game".
Actually...I have done this MANY times over the years with WoW. I quit for 6 months, pay $15 come back and check out what's new sometimes I stay longer than that month sometimes not.
Honestly....if $15 is an amount you have to even think about spending I really don't think gaming is for that person. Just my 2c....gaming is a luxury (mostly) in varying degrees.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
League of Legends (not an RPG but MMO for sure).
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Some people still live in the stone age and think that any cash shop is P2W and is immersive breaking. Which is as far from the truth as one can get. Cash shops designed with convenience in mind is perfectly acceptable because it allows some of us the possibility to exchange real life cash for time spent in game. I harken it back to my hate with WoW when you had those guys hanging around at the bank or the AH riding their leet mounts with top of the line gear, thinking they were king shit because they could waste 12+ hours a day playing a video game. Well a good cash shop will allow me to compete with those same asshats and their leetist mentality by buying things to make my life easier and to support the company more. The majority of people who are against them are the same ones like the OP who feel entitled to some special privileged In a video game because they spend more time in it.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
You had me with you right up to the special privilege line. If there are rewards to be gained from playing the game over time, then they will accrue to players that play more first. That is not a special privilege.
Being able to buy those things online is taking a shortcut for cash, I guess that is why people call it Pay to Win.
But everyone's still approaching this from a Themepark mentality where It's OK as long as they Keep P2W items out. But EQN is supposed to be a sandbox.Traditionally, gear in sandbox games isn't permanent. It gets destroyed over time, lost, stolen looted then players have to constantly replace their stuff. Most items aren't character bound and can be traded so in a sandbox, gold is the balancer. And being able to buy gold in a sandbox is as P2W as it gets.
No one is forcing you to play EQN, a game that will be free to play.
If you like FFXIV:ARR, awesome, play it. That game and EQN are completely different style of MMOs. FFXIV:ARR is more themepark and not that explorable -- dont let the zones outside cities fool you, its not really explorable. Combat is your typical tab target type system with "combo" twist and party twist stuff. If that is what you like, more power to you, I dont think Themepark games should be an insult, some love it and some want different.
What does any of that have to do with the effect real money will have on EQN's crafting and economy?
No game will ever give you that feeling again.
Most dislike it if something is hard to get so they give everyone a house with a few mouse clicks.
Kids dictate everything.