I have to agree with you. I love raiding, but I would give it all up in a minute for a game like pre-CU SWG. I have the fondest memories of that game and it isn't all nostalgia. I truly loved that game. My wife and I both miss it.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Absolutely. Giving everyone in a group the tools to Control mobs, mitigate damage, heal a little bit and still do damage brings a much more dynamic and interactive group scenario, why would you need any one person in the group to fill one specific task. The trinity is highly restrictive and very boring where non trinity group play is more about coordination a tactics. In my opinion Teamwork exists more in a non trinity system.
Not sure I see how non-trin is better teamwork. In a trinity (or 4rinity with cc), everyone has to depend on each other or it falls apart. You can't just dps everything and resurrect the people who die and keep going. Even the dps has to control how much damage he does to not draw agro (and if he does healer has to adjust or cc save him, tank has to re-engage mob). Non-trin seems to be everyone out for self, all able to defend/dodge or heal themselves. Not saying trinity is perfect (it could use improvement to make more dynamic, but it does foster more teamwork-group usually wiped if people not good at their role. I believe non-trin could work well if improved upon to create some dependency on each other, or maybe some type of combining parts of both ideas, like giving more classes ability to do other roles to support each other-backup healer with dps, or wizzie that could buff self temporarily to help tank, or other-should be possible in EQN since they will have multiclassing skills (i think i read that.)
The thing is that I think a lot of these people never raided, or if they did, they did it in PUGS. They don't understand the mechanics behind it, or they wouldn't make statements like giving everyone all the abilities makes for more teamwork.......
Eh, the teamwork will be the same - thats up to the actual players.
And yes, I have raided in EQ, EQ2, AO, WoW... I know what you are trying to say, but its just not correct. In every game I have raided in it always boiled down to the same thing - Learn the strat and then do the dance. As long as you followed the choreography, you were almost certain to win (so long as your healer didn't fall asleep, the tank doesn't go LD and the one DPSer didn't decide "Oh hey, I will just have my kid play for a few minutes while I sneak out for a smoke" and draw aggro...).
And lord forbid your main tank decided that going to the movies with his wife would be more fun than raiding, or the healer decided that going to the ER for a ruptured appendix was more important than the guild raid. Nothing more fun than waiting for a backup to log in or spamming general for anyone who had experience in said raid for hours on end.
The whole point of EQNs system is that yes, while you can still play those roles and they would make life easier, you don't have to have them to proceed.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Originally posted by Theocritus I like the trinity...It gives players a defined role to play (remember role playing game).......Non trinity to me that everyone deals damage as fast as they can and you handle your own healing....That isnt roleplaying....Thats a lazy way to make players overpowered and take away the RPG part of the game.
It works great in Super Mario Bros though....
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Absolutely. Giving everyone in a group the tools to Control mobs, mitigate damage, heal a little bit and still do damage brings a much more dynamic and interactive group scenario, why would you need any one person in the group to fill one specific task. The trinity is highly restrictive and very boring where non trinity group play is more about coordination a tactics. In my opinion Teamwork exists more in a non trinity system.
Not sure I see how non-trin is better teamwork. In a trinity (or 4rinity with cc), everyone has to depend on each other or it falls apart. You can't just dps everything and resurrect the people who die and keep going. Even the dps has to control how much damage he does to not draw agro (and if he does healer has to adjust or cc save him, tank has to re-engage mob). Non-trin seems to be everyone out for self, all able to defend/dodge or heal themselves. Not saying trinity is perfect (it could use improvement to make more dynamic, but it does foster more teamwork-group usually wiped if people not good at their role. I believe non-trin could work well if improved upon to create some dependency on each other, or maybe some type of combining parts of both ideas, like giving more classes ability to do other roles to support each other-backup healer with dps, or wizzie that could buff self temporarily to help tank, or other-should be possible in EQN since they will have multiclassing skills (i think i read that.)
The thing is that I think a lot of these people never raided, or if they did, they did it in PUGS. They don't understand the mechanics behind it, or they wouldn't make statements like giving everyone all the abilities makes for more teamwork.......
Eh, the teamwork will be the same - thats up to the actual players.
And yes, I have raided in EQ, EQ2, AO, WoW... I know what you are trying to say, but its just not correct. In every game I have raided in it always boiled down to the same thing - Learn the strat and then do the dance. As long as you followed the choreography, you were almost certain to win (so long as your healer didn't fall asleep, the tank doesn't go LD and the one DPSer didn't decide "Oh hey, I will just have my kid play for a few minutes while I sneak out for a smoke" and draw aggro...).
And lord forbid your main tank decided that going to the movies with his wife would be more fun than raiding, or the healer decided that going to the ER for a ruptured appendix was more important than the guild raid. Nothing more fun than waiting for a backup to log in or spamming general for anyone who had experience in said raid for hours on end.
The whole point of EQNs system is that yes, while you can still play those roles and they would make life easier, you don't have to have them to proceed.
Not really. Not if the fight doesn't require it. Just look at GW2...... Hopefully SOE can come up with something that involves something more.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Although I like the trinity setup, I believe a non-trinity setup can work too. Using GW2 as an example, it seemed every class was able to do everything(heal, tank, DPS, support). Some did cetain aspects better but still could do everything. If the roles of the classes were more open than a player could decide that he or she wants to be a do everything character but he or she could also be more of a straight tank. The game needs designed where each is a viable and useful option. Only time will tell if that is the case for EQN. I am rooting for the devs at SOE to get it right.
I think aggro control is a more appropriate discussion than trinty vs. non-trinity. If aggro control is designed properly than I don't believe the trinity will be as important. Using GW2 again, I didn't feel that the game had much of any aggro control and believe that is what made some turn away from the non-trinity setup.
the problem is theyve replaced the trinity with a unity (if you get what i mean).
3 roles has now gone down to one tank/healer/dps -> dps.
I dont think the trinity needs to be used but the system they use to replace it has to have some sort of dependance on other characters otherwise there wont be any real teamwork.
it changes teamwork to everyone is doing dps on the same target and tries to survive.
i don't understand the ranting... the ppl who are complaining about the lack of trinity must not have watched the full char panel video.. they showed some of the alternatives to traditional tank/healer/dps.. in a fantasy universe warriors are not the only chars that can tank.. or cc. priests/mages aren't the only ones who can heal. there is nothing wrong with breaking the traditional mold and making it something more. mages use the environment to create shields... that has a lot of potential.. why ignore that fact? i'm sure they have even more planned...
I for one read lots of fantasy books.. and I've never seen a single situation.. where a tank stands in front of a mob.. doesn't move.. and maintains its attention until the battle is over.. .it doesn't happen. they want to get everyone involved in the combat... nothing is wrong with that... as long as the char abilities support and sustain each other in group play there isn't a problem.
I dont mind there being hybrids and classes that can heal/tank, but the problem is theyre removing the dedicated classes completely.
If they had both I would be happier, you could easily design a system where tanks/healers and hybrids could fulfill the roles interchangeably ie 1 healers = 2 healer/dps hybrids working together.
Also the system doesnt necessarily have to be a traditional system. eg a tank can lose the attention due to the mob deciding it wants to kill the dps, but then you could have it so the tank has to get in front of him and shield bash + stun him to stop him to distract him and force the mob to try and get the tank out of the way.
The attitude coming from the panels is that by healing and tanking you arent 'getting involved' and theyre doing us a favour by removing these classes, but i love healing to me dps i boring. if this is all thats going to be the game then unfortunately its not the game for me which sucks because i like the sound of everything else.
I don't think they meant they were removing them completely.. I think they were removing tanks/heals/dps... meaning that what they are creating wouldn't fit the strict mold of what everyone considers a tank... most ppl when they think tank.. they tank taunts... so if you remove taunts you are effectively removing the tank role.. I feel they just simplified their terminology and just didn't give out much info..
Its difficult to decide what the combat will be like when the dev's chose to leave the audience without information. I feel that everyone should reserve their judgement until the dev's describe what mechanic they are replacing it with.
but honestly your description sounds like what the game will play like... to me a tank can tank without taunting.. there are other mechanics that can be used instead. the point is that the tanking won't be 100% fool proof and that it will be more like 60-70% effective, which will add an element of danger and excitement to the game.
I could get that the tanking could potentially be that but from what theyve said theyve completely removed the dedicated healer/support role @ 24:50
Theyre taking the choice of being a damage dealer or not out of it and in groups i have no interest in being the damage dealer, its boring to me. The combat could be amazing and itll be a game that I enjoy playing solo but thats not what i would like to do in an mmo all the time.
With the current information we have the group play aspect of this game is dead to me.
I would not mind a Soft trinity, whee the roles of it are existent in the combat mechanics but do not limit player possibilities.
Plainly locking a class to one role of either DPS TANKING of HEALING and SUPPORT I think is a very artificial, mechanical and innorganic approach...
On the other hand it would seem to make sense that a character in full plate armor be able to take on more damage than one in leather or cloth.
But I think maybe the multiclass system is there for just that purpose.
What if someone combines a Warrior with a Ranger? How about if that combo permits one to wear heavy armor but use a Bow as the main weapon instead?
They should be able to tank better than lets say a mage/healer combo wearing cloth or leather.
So maybe in reality in EQ next there are Trinity mehcanics but the Trinity is not set in stone in the sense that a player can switch to different roles with the same character as they feel like without being limited by the class to one single role. Yet, the roles per se are still there in the actual combat...
So it depends upon what one chooses to wear maybe allong side what classes they choose to have active?
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I would not mind a Soft trinity, whee the roles of it are existent in the combat mechanics but do not limit player possibilities.
Plainly locking a class to one role of either DPS TANKING of HEALING and SUPPORT I think is a very artificial, mechanical and innorganic approach...
On the other hand it would seem to make sense that a character in full plate armor be able to take on more damage than one in leather or cloth.
But I think maybe the multiclass system is there for just that purpose.
What if someone combines a Warrior with a Ranger? How about if that combo permits one to wear heavy armor but use a Bow as the main weapon instead?
They should be able to tank better than lets say a mage/healer combo wearing cloth or leather.
So maybe in reality in EQ next there are Trinity mehcanics but the Trinity is not set in stone in the sense that a player can switch to different roles with the same character as they feel like without being limited by the class to one single role. Yet, the roles per se are still there in the actual combat...
So it depends upon what one chooses to wear maybe allong side what classes they choose to have active?
From what they said this isnt possible. The way it works is that you choose a primary class which decides what armour and weapons you can use so mix and matching that isnt possible. It could change though ofc.
Originally posted by TyranusPrime (Let's add to the mix here.. Say the game being discussed isn't an 8 button masher type, but more of the multi-ability of Warcraft or Rift or something.. Does the addition of abilities and tactics change your view on trinity-use?)
Well, a few things to consider about the Trinity debate.
1) It's already been proven that the Trinity is not necessary to have a good RPG. Non-MMO RPGs have been doing this for over a decade now, and there have even been a few MMOs to pull this off successfully (and yes, GW2 is one).
2) MMO gamers, as much as they won't admit it, are extremely opposed to any real change. This is something many developers have learned over the years, and one of the main reasons why we don't get many games that are 'too different'. Other genres have been showing viable alternatives to the trinity system, but heres the thing:
- The trinity system is easy. You don't have to think much in a trinity setup. You have your tank, your healer, and your damage. There is no grey areas, there's very little needed customization. You get your optimal group and win. The tank & the healer take on most of the responsibility for the group, while everyone else just mashes their DPS rotations.
- Non trinity systems put more responsibility on each individual. If you screw up, it's on you, and everyone knows it. This makes a lot of players feel stupid, bad, or cheated when they can't get a hang of the system. We've seen this a lot w/ GW2 for example.
- Non trinity systems also take away the feeling certain players get of being irreplaceable. In non-trinity games it's usually skill that determines who is needed, and who is not. This means people used to being the tank, or healer, are no longer that class that a party NEEDS if they want to complete anything.
Neither way is necessarily better than the other, but they ARE matters of preference. Personally, I prefer games that are challenging, that make you think, buildcraft, and have to figure out new ways to approach each encounter. While both methods can have this to some degree, I find that non-trinity games do this to a much greater degree.
That said, I also enjoy more traditional trinity games. They're a lot simpler, and easy to hop into and just have fun. There's a lot less thinking involved.
- My only wish is that more people would stop being so close minded towards MMO mechanics, and start embracing or experimenting with new game mechanics. Otherwise, we have no one to blame but ourselves when we don't have interesting enough games.
1. Of course there is no trinity in a single player game. It is after all a single player game. The mechanics are completely different when you include other people and desire them to team up for content. If you don't have mechanics to match that then you end up with the GW2 feeling where a lot of people feel like they are playing around other people and not with them.
2. You obviously never raided in a progression guild at a high level or you wouldn't say that. It takes some skill even to play DPS effectively and that goes without saying when it comes to healing and tanking.
1) RPGs aren't split up into MMOs & Single player. And even in the single player RPGs, many of them were based around group dynamics. One example being Xeno Gears. I also look at a game like Dragon's Dogma and think 'there is no reason why this couldn't be an MMO. It doesn't rely on healers, but instead on each party member playing smart and covering each other's weaknesses; in addition to learning your enemy's & exploiting them.
2) I have raided, and I have been in progression guilds in the past. The reason why I don't anymore, is because the time commitment is too much. Given my career I can't afford to have a 2nd weekly job.
The 'difficulty' wasn't in the combat. It was in getting every on the same page (organizing the group), and in learning the boss mechanics. I don't honestly think anyone believes otherwise. This isn't to say that I've never been challenged (some of the fights in vanilla FFXI & WoW were rough), but it had nothing to do w/ it being a trinity game. Most of the time it was due to gear or a first run through learning the mechanics.
Absolutely. Giving everyone in a group the tools to Control mobs, mitigate damage, heal a little bit and still do damage brings a much more dynamic and interactive group scenario, why would you need any one person in the group to fill one specific task. The trinity is highly restrictive and very boring where non trinity group play is more about coordination a tactics. In my opinion Teamwork exists more in a non trinity system.
Not sure I see how non-trin is better teamwork. In a trinity (or 4rinity with cc), everyone has to depend on each other or it falls apart. You can't just dps everything and resurrect the people who die and keep going. Even the dps has to control how much damage he does to not draw agro (and if he does healer has to adjust or cc save him, tank has to re-engage mob). Non-trin seems to be everyone out for self, all able to defend/dodge or heal themselves. Not saying trinity is perfect (it could use improvement to make more dynamic, but it does foster more teamwork-group usually wiped if people not good at their role. I believe non-trin could work well if improved upon to create some dependency on each other, or maybe some type of combining parts of both ideas, like giving more classes ability to do other roles to support each other-backup healer with dps, or wizzie that could buff self temporarily to help tank, or other-should be possible in EQN since they will have multiclassing skills (i think i read that.)
The thing is that I think a lot of these people never raided, or if they did, they did it in PUGS. They don't understand the mechanics behind it, or they wouldn't make statements like giving everyone all the abilities makes for more teamwork.......
Eh, the teamwork will be the same - thats up to the actual players.
And yes, I have raided in EQ, EQ2, AO, WoW... I know what you are trying to say, but its just not correct. In every game I have raided in it always boiled down to the same thing - Learn the strat and then do the dance. As long as you followed the choreography, you were almost certain to win (so long as your healer didn't fall asleep, the tank doesn't go LD and the one DPSer didn't decide "Oh hey, I will just have my kid play for a few minutes while I sneak out for a smoke" and draw aggro...).
And lord forbid your main tank decided that going to the movies with his wife would be more fun than raiding, or the healer decided that going to the ER for a ruptured appendix was more important than the guild raid. Nothing more fun than waiting for a backup to log in or spamming general for anyone who had experience in said raid for hours on end.
The whole point of EQNs system is that yes, while you can still play those roles and they would make life easier, you don't have to have them to proceed.
Not really. Not if the fight doesn't require it. Just look at GW2...... Hopefully SOE can come up with something that involves something more.
Again, that was one developer. I am sure SOE looked at GW2 as a lesson on how not to do it.
At least one can hope.
We will all just have to wait and see.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Not sure I see how non-trin is better teamwork. In a trinity (or 4rinity with cc), everyone has to depend on each other or it falls apart. You can't just dps everything and resurrect the people who die and keep going. Even the dps has to control how much damage he does to not draw agro (and if he does healer has to adjust or cc save him, tank has to re-engage mob). Non-trin seems to be everyone out for self, all able to defend/dodge or heal themselves. Not saying trinity is perfect (it could use improvement to make more dynamic, but it does foster more teamwork-group usually wiped if people not good at their role. I believe non-trin could work well if improved upon to create some dependency on each other, or maybe some type of combining parts of both ideas, like giving more classes ability to do other roles to support each other-backup healer with dps, or wizzie that could buff self temporarily to help tank, or other-should be possible in EQN since they will have multiclassing skills (i think i read that.)
Eh, the teamwork will be the same - thats up to the actual players.
And yes, I have raided in EQ, EQ2, AO, WoW... I know what you are trying to say, but its just not correct. In every game I have raided in it always boiled down to the same thing - Learn the strat and then do the dance. As long as you followed the choreography, you were almost certain to win (so long as your healer didn't fall asleep, the tank doesn't go LD and the one DPSer didn't decide "Oh hey, I will just have my kid play for a few minutes while I sneak out for a smoke" and draw aggro...).
And lord forbid your main tank decided that going to the movies with his wife would be more fun than raiding, or the healer decided that going to the ER for a ruptured appendix was more important than the guild raid. Nothing more fun than waiting for a backup to log in or spamming general for anyone who had experience in said raid for hours on end.
The whole point of EQNs system is that yes, while you can still play those roles and they would make life easier, you don't have to have them to proceed.
Not really, with trinity you have to use teamwork or you die. In non-trin games it seems to be set-up that you can succeed without coordination or only minimal teamwork, if any at all. That might not be the non-trin styles fault, but because they made the content too easy.
I do agree it is annoying/time consuming to have to wait for a tank/healer to have a group and i agree that it can get boring doing the same process in combat over and over (but this is the fault of limited mob AI, if more dynamic/random AI, any combat will be more exciting/challenging.
That's why I suggested having other classes able to tank/cc/heal,etc. instead of just a few. That way you wouldn't have to wait on 1 or 2 specific classes (although they would be better at it) to be successful. You would still need the role filled, but maybe 2 classes specced to tank could handle it. And with the multi-skill system you could build them, and it would make the combat different with each combination in group. ex. Ranger built to be support/heal over dps-he could back up heal and cc and would be a unique (or maybe flexible is better term) class-build. You wouldn't have as much trouble getting group together, the combat would be more varied as far as tactics and you could make some fun builds instead of min/max limitations in usual trinity games. People keep saying those that like trinity are resistant to change and should embrace non-trin, but maybe a better Trinity system is the answer.
Not sure I see how non-trin is better teamwork. In a trinity (or 4rinity with cc), everyone has to depend on each other or it falls apart. You can't just dps everything and resurrect the people who die and keep going. Even the dps has to control how much damage he does to not draw agro (and if he does healer has to adjust or cc save him, tank has to re-engage mob). Non-trin seems to be everyone out for self, all able to defend/dodge or heal themselves. Not saying trinity is perfect (it could use improvement to make more dynamic, but it does foster more teamwork-group usually wiped if people not good at their role. I believe non-trin could work well if improved upon to create some dependency on each other, or maybe some type of combining parts of both ideas, like giving more classes ability to do other roles to support each other-backup healer with dps, or wizzie that could buff self temporarily to help tank, or other-should be possible in EQN since they will have multiclassing skills (i think i read that.)
Eh, the teamwork will be the same - thats up to the actual players.
And yes, I have raided in EQ, EQ2, AO, WoW... I know what you are trying to say, but its just not correct. In every game I have raided in it always boiled down to the same thing - Learn the strat and then do the dance. As long as you followed the choreography, you were almost certain to win (so long as your healer didn't fall asleep, the tank doesn't go LD and the one DPSer didn't decide "Oh hey, I will just have my kid play for a few minutes while I sneak out for a smoke" and draw aggro...).
And lord forbid your main tank decided that going to the movies with his wife would be more fun than raiding, or the healer decided that going to the ER for a ruptured appendix was more important than the guild raid. Nothing more fun than waiting for a backup to log in or spamming general for anyone who had experience in said raid for hours on end.
The whole point of EQNs system is that yes, while you can still play those roles and they would make life easier, you don't have to have them to proceed.
Not really, with trinity you have to use teamwork or you die. In non-trin games it seems to be set-up that you can succeed without coordination or only minimal teamwork, if any at all. That might not be the non-trin styles fault, but because they made the content too easy.
I do agree it is annoying/time consuming to have to wait for a tank/healer to have a group and i agree that it can get boring doing the same process in combat over and over (but this is the fault of limited mob AI, if more dynamic/random AI, any combat will be more exciting/challenging.
That's why I suggested having other classes able to tank/cc/heal,etc. instead of just a few. That way you wouldn't have to wait on 1 or 2 specific classes (although they would be better at it) to be successful. You would still need the role filled, but maybe 2 classes specced to tank could handle it. And with the multi-skill system you could build them, and it would make the combat different with each combination in group. ex. Ranger built to be support/heal over dps-he could back up heal and cc and would be a unique (or maybe flexible is better term) class-build. You wouldn't have as much trouble getting group together, the combat would be more varied as far as tactics and you could make some fun builds instead of min/max limitations in usual trinity games. People keep saying those that like trinity are resistant to change and should embrace non-trin, but maybe a better Trinity system is the answer.
Again, its not really about teamwork in the trinity system, Its about having the proper cards in hand to play the flush. In a trinity system its all about having the proper team layout. Sure, people have to pay attention, but that is true in non-trin systems as well.
And again, they stated that they did not go GW2 and abolish the trinity. They even stated its still there. The problem is, unlike your normal mob AI, just having the trinity will not always be the best option. And thats what I like. They want a fight to feel like a challenge again, not the whole "Well, this isn't working... brb while I look up the proper spec/strat for this encounter....". They don't want people feeling they are forced to have roles A, B and C on hand to be effective. They want people to experiment, to figure things out on their own terms and to have fun.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Originally posted by TyranusPrime (Let's add to the mix here.. Say the game being discussed isn't an 8 button masher type, but more of the multi-ability of Warcraft or Rift or something.. Does the addition of abilities and tactics change your view on trinity-use?)
Well, a few things to consider about the Trinity debate.
1) It's already been proven that the Trinity is not necessary to have a good RPG. Non-MMO RPGs have been doing this for over a decade now, and there have even been a few MMOs to pull this off successfully (and yes, GW2 is one).
2) MMO gamers, as much as they won't admit it, are extremely opposed to any real change. This is something many developers have learned over the years, and one of the main reasons why we don't get many games that are 'too different'. Other genres have been showing viable alternatives to the trinity system, but heres the thing:
- The trinity system is easy. You don't have to think much in a trinity setup. You have your tank, your healer, and your damage. There is no grey areas, there's very little needed customization. You get your optimal group and win. The tank & the healer take on most of the responsibility for the group, while everyone else just mashes their DPS rotations.
- Non trinity systems put more responsibility on each individual. If you screw up, it's on you, and everyone knows it. This makes a lot of players feel stupid, bad, or cheated when they can't get a hang of the system. We've seen this a lot w/ GW2 for example.
- Non trinity systems also take away the feeling certain players get of being irreplaceable. In non-trinity games it's usually skill that determines who is needed, and who is not. This means people used to being the tank, or healer, are no longer that class that a party NEEDS if they want to complete anything.
Neither way is necessarily better than the other, but they ARE matters of preference. Personally, I prefer games that are challenging, that make you think, buildcraft, and have to figure out new ways to approach each encounter. While both methods can have this to some degree, I find that non-trinity games do this to a much greater degree.
That said, I also enjoy more traditional trinity games. They're a lot simpler, and easy to hop into and just have fun. There's a lot less thinking involved.
- My only wish is that more people would stop being so close minded towards MMO mechanics, and start embracing or experimenting with new game mechanics. Otherwise, we have no one to blame but ourselves when we don't have interesting enough games.
1. Of course there is no trinity in a single player game. It is after all a single player game. The mechanics are completely different when you include other people and desire them to team up for content. If you don't have mechanics to match that then you end up with the GW2 feeling where a lot of people feel like they are playing around other people and not with them.
2. You obviously never raided in a progression guild at a high level or you wouldn't say that. It takes some skill even to play DPS effectively and that goes without saying when it comes to healing and tanking.
1) RPGs aren't split up into MMOs & Single player. And even in the single player RPGs, many of them were based around group dynamics. One example being Xeno Gears. I also look at a game like Dragon's Dogma and think 'there is no reason why this couldn't be an MMO. It doesn't rely on healers, but instead on each party member playing smart and covering each other's weaknesses; in addition to learning your enemy's & exploiting them.
Again, there is a big difference between a SRPG and an MMO. The mechanics are completely different. What works in a SRPG isn't necessarily going to work well with a group. I have played Dragon's Dogma. It isn't even close, though I did like the game and the world. AI henchmen are much different then real people.
2) I have raided, and I have been in progression guilds in the past. The reason why I don't anymore, is because the time commitment is too much. Given my career I can't afford to have a 2nd weekly job.
The 'difficulty' wasn't in the combat. It was in getting every on the same page (organizing the group), and in learning the boss mechanics. I don't honestly think anyone believes otherwise. This isn't to say that I've never been challenged (some of the fights in vanilla FFXI & WoW were rough), but it had nothing to do w/ it being a trinity game. Most of the time it was due to gear or a first run through learning the mechanics.
There is a huge difference between people that can play their classes and play them well and people who can't. There are lots of people that can't hack it in a progression raiding guild simply because of this. They cause the party to wipe. It does beyond the footwork and memorizing the patterns. Reacting to situations when things go wrong, managing things like mana for healers, DPS being able to control the damage at just the right level so that they don't draw aggro but maximized enough to burn down the health properly. Vanilla WoW through BC had plenty of tough raids that required people to really work together. To say that a game like GW2 has anything comparable is just ludicrous.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Originally posted by drivendawn Trinity and Non-Trinity are just styles of combat. Some people like one, some the other. It's a taste thing, to me this thread is pointless.
Heh.. This thread is hardly pointless.. In fact, it has done exactly what I wanted.. To stimulate discussion over the trinity vs. non-trinity systems and to see vastly different viewpoints..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
I think a system similar to GW1 would work really well especially with the whole multi-classing system and building your character for a specific encounter. There wasn't really a traditional trinity, they had all the typical classes but because of the multi class system any class could fulfil any role but there was never one build to rule them all.
There was no tanking except for certain abilities that would either mitigate all damage or reduce damage for a period of time but even a warrior wasn't safe once those wore off. You had to rely on team synergy using cc positioning and clever use of skills such as interrupts/energy burns/slows/knockbacks etc. There was no aggro or taunts, although you could use your body to block enemies or your minions and funnel them into a choke point while the squishy team members stand behind you. There was no fixed agro either the mobs will attack whoever they feel like and will usually go for the most important players on your team. They will interrupt your heals or even disable your skills completely. You could dummy cast to force them to use their skills without disabling yours.
This was further reinforced with every mob using the same skills that were available to players which made the game feel more like pvp in a sense. Creatures could use the same energy burning abilities as you could and for someone with low energy pool such as the warrior this could potentially disable him, unable to use any of his abilities. There were obviously exceptions with adrenaline skills and such but generally speaking that was the case. Which if I remember correctly something that was talked about in one of the panels where pve will feel more like pvp and monsters will be able to use similar if not the same skills as those available to you.
Since this core mechanic of stationary tank n spank type gameplay is slowly being transformed into reactive and action based that focuses on movement, the holy trinity would become inefficient. You become more reliant on positioning and reacting to the actions of your enemies. Maybe they could have a similar system like doding in GW2 but instead of dodging different primary classes could have their own method of avoiding damage.
In GW2 any class will dodge like 2 times before depleting their energy pool. What if a warrior could raise his shield for a couple of seconds to block some of the big hitting attacks while a rogue type character would do a dodge instead. Maybe the warrior even creates a type of bubble in front of him so anyone behind him will be safe. This would work nicely with the GW1 positioning and enemy funneling type mechanic for a warrior who could pull the enemies then block them in a narrow path way while the rogue could run around and be more nimble then quickly dodge behind the warriors shield to avoid being focused. I can see the voxel destruction/creation play a huge role in this as well. As we saw in the presentation where a crystal wall appeared out of the ground and then collapsing the bridge, we could trap and direct enemies by altering the environment itself.
Obviously the skill system will be more simplified than that of GW1 but I can see this working very well and actually require team work in harder encounters unlike the zerg spam fest of GW2. Even though there are some cool encounters that are quite difficult, at it's core it's all about timing your dodges and doing the most dps until the next thing comes around that you need to dodge again so the classes you bring hardly ever matter. 4 warriors and a guardian will probably suffice for most encounters.
Although majority of what I just said will probably not work without body blocking so hopefully that's in. I hope it will also have a balance between movement and stationary combat. If everyone just teleporting all over the field and double jumping like crazy it can get pretty chaotic and boring. Even if this is not how EQN will turn out phasing through enemies is pretty lame.
2) I have raided, and I have been in progression guilds in the past. The reason why I don't anymore, is because the time commitment is too much. Given my career I can't afford to have a 2nd weekly job
The 'difficulty' wasn't in the combat. It was in getting every on the same page (organizing the group), and in learning the boss mechanics. I don't honestly think anyone believes otherwise. This isn't to say that I've never been challenged (some of the fights in vanilla FFXI & WoW were rough), but it had nothing to do w/ it being a trinity game. Most of the time it was due to gear or a first run through learning the mechanics.
There is a huge difference in people that can play their classes and play them well and people who can't. There are lots of people that can't hack it in a progression raiding guild simply because of this. They cause the party to wipe. It does beyond the footwork and memorizing the patterns. Reacting to situations when things go wrong, managing things like mana for healers, DPS being able to control the damage at just the right level so that they don't draw aggro but maximized enough to burn down the health properly. Vanilla WoW through BC had plenty of tough raids that required people to really work together. To say that a game like GW2 has anything comparable is just ludicrous.
Thing is, this is only true if the person telling the story wants it to be true. Raiding in WoW was pretty damned easy. It was all pretty much Have the right gear, Have the right classes, Learn the dance, stay awake and hope the lag didn't get you. The only raid I can think of that was a pain was when we first entered Sunwell - But by then most of us were bored of the raid game and the quest for loot.
As far as having people who could raid effectively, I agree. There are some people who don't have the reactions or the attention spans to raid in a hardcore raid guild. And after a while I actually started to see things from their point of view. Every raid was the same - Learn the strat, memorize the positions. Hit the button, move to the left to avoid aoe. Hit the button several more times, run to the wall, count to 10 to avoid the nuke and run back into range to continue hitting your rotations. Rinse/repeat. You know it got bad when you were getting praise for being an awesome healer because everyone lived, meanwhile they had no idea you were watching TV the whole time and just keeping rhythm/timing by tapping your foot (tap, tap, tap, tap, heal, tap, tap, tap, cleanse...).
As for GW2, the reason it didn't have something comparable is because the devs made sure it didn't. SOE knows people like to raid, they know people like the bigger group picture. I doubt they will be a foolish as Anet was in this regard.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
2) I have raided, and I have been in progression guilds in the past. The reason why I don't anymore, is because the time commitment is too much. Given my career I can't afford to have a 2nd weekly job
The 'difficulty' wasn't in the combat. It was in getting every on the same page (organizing the group), and in learning the boss mechanics. I don't honestly think anyone believes otherwise. This isn't to say that I've never been challenged (some of the fights in vanilla FFXI & WoW were rough), but it had nothing to do w/ it being a trinity game. Most of the time it was due to gear or a first run through learning the mechanics.
There is a huge difference in people that can play their classes and play them well and people who can't. There are lots of people that can't hack it in a progression raiding guild simply because of this. They cause the party to wipe. It does beyond the footwork and memorizing the patterns. Reacting to situations when things go wrong, managing things like mana for healers, DPS being able to control the damage at just the right level so that they don't draw aggro but maximized enough to burn down the health properly. Vanilla WoW through BC had plenty of tough raids that required people to really work together. To say that a game like GW2 has anything comparable is just ludicrous.
Thing is, this is only true if the person telling the story wants it to be true. Raiding in WoW was pretty damned easy. It was all pretty much Have the right gear, Have the right classes, Learn the dance, stay awake and hope the lag didn't get you. The only raid I can think of that was a pain was when we first entered Sunwell - But by then most of us were bored of the raid game and the quest for loot.
As far as having people who could raid effectively, I agree. There are some people who don't have the reactions or the attention spans to raid in a hardcore raid guild. And after a while I actually started to see things from their point of view. Every raid was the same - Learn the strat, memorize the positions. Hit the button, move to the left to avoid aoe. Hit the button several more times, run to the wall, count to 10 to avoid the nuke and run back into range to continue hitting your rotations. Rinse/repeat. You know it got bad when you were getting praise for being an awesome healer because everyone lived, meanwhile they had no idea you were watching TV the whole time and just keeping rhythm/timing by tapping your foot (tap, tap, tap, tap, heal, tap, tap, tap, cleanse...).
As for GW2, the reason it didn't have something comparable is because the devs made sure it didn't. SOE knows people like to raid, they know people like the bigger group picture. I doubt they will be a foolish as Anet was in this regard.
Nice try, but not really though. You might want to apply what you wrote to your 1337 self.......
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
One of my issues with non-trinity combat systems is the limits it places on encounters. Take World Encounters for example. Bosses have to be tuned to lowest common denominators. Without a tank, hits have to be toned down for the squishies etc etc. These boss encounters tend to turn into massive AOE fests. These huge badass looking boss mobs sit back and launch mob wave after mob wave while keeping some lame ass AOE DoT up. Jormag took so long because you spend half the time in Fear.
So while trinity or not, there will always be AOE to contend with, in a trinity system, there is so much more you can do with the bosses than what you can do in the non trinity where it's assumed everyone will be tanking at some point.
2) I have raided, and I have been in progression guilds in the past. The reason why I don't anymore, is because the time commitment is too much. Given my career I can't afford to have a 2nd weekly job
The 'difficulty' wasn't in the combat. It was in getting every on the same page (organizing the group), and in learning the boss mechanics. I don't honestly think anyone believes otherwise. This isn't to say that I've never been challenged (some of the fights in vanilla FFXI & WoW were rough), but it had nothing to do w/ it being a trinity game. Most of the time it was due to gear or a first run through learning the mechanics.
There is a huge difference in people that can play their classes and play them well and people who can't. There are lots of people that can't hack it in a progression raiding guild simply because of this. They cause the party to wipe. It does beyond the footwork and memorizing the patterns. Reacting to situations when things go wrong, managing things like mana for healers, DPS being able to control the damage at just the right level so that they don't draw aggro but maximized enough to burn down the health properly. Vanilla WoW through BC had plenty of tough raids that required people to really work together. To say that a game like GW2 has anything comparable is just ludicrous.
Thing is, this is only true if the person telling the story wants it to be true. Raiding in WoW was pretty damned easy. It was all pretty much Have the right gear, Have the right classes, Learn the dance, stay awake and hope the lag didn't get you. The only raid I can think of that was a pain was when we first entered Sunwell - But by then most of us were bored of the raid game and the quest for loot.
As far as having people who could raid effectively, I agree. There are some people who don't have the reactions or the attention spans to raid in a hardcore raid guild. And after a while I actually started to see things from their point of view. Every raid was the same - Learn the strat, memorize the positions. Hit the button, move to the left to avoid aoe. Hit the button several more times, run to the wall, count to 10 to avoid the nuke and run back into range to continue hitting your rotations. Rinse/repeat. You know it got bad when you were getting praise for being an awesome healer because everyone lived, meanwhile they had no idea you were watching TV the whole time and just keeping rhythm/timing by tapping your foot (tap, tap, tap, tap, heal, tap, tap, tap, cleanse...).
As for GW2, the reason it didn't have something comparable is because the devs made sure it didn't. SOE knows people like to raid, they know people like the bigger group picture. I doubt they will be a foolish as Anet was in this regard.
Nice try, but not really though. You might want to apply what you wrote to your 1337 self.......
So I am leet now because I don't agree with your opinion and instead found that once you learned the dance raids became boring? I guess punching wholes in your reasoning might have warrented this /shrug
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I don't think its the trinity people want back as much as team work.
MMOs were games where people FILLED roles with peers.
Players want to have roles. They know that now.
There's a psychological aspect to team work part of gaming people are clearly overlooking. Its community and teamwork that people want back; not tanking and healing. Find creative ways to have people support each other, help each other, and lead each other and people will play your game.
Originally posted by drivendawn Trinity and Non-Trinity are just styles of combat. Some people like one, some the other. It's a taste thing, to me this thread is pointless.
Heh.. This thread is hardly pointless.. In fact, it has done exactly what I wanted.. To stimulate discussion over the trinity vs. non-trinity systems and to see vastly different viewpoints..
the problem is that it's facilitating a discussion without any context to what the EQN system will actually be. i can argue all day long about what i like and dislike about game mechanics. i'm sure there is general consensus that any group game-play should actually promote teamwork and a sense of supporting each other to complete whatever adventure you're on. we saw a lot of teamwork promoted in the original EQ which was amplified by the penalty for failure (corpse run, lost XP). but few games are like original EQ anymore (none are). modern games with the trinity aren't necessarily so special but there are some stand out examples of games that just failed utterly to give a better experience by not having the trinity. i recommend just giving SOE a chance to talk and put some context in place because all these great arguments for or against trinity are pretty much a time waster. time would be better spent discussing what we like/dislike about what has actually been revealed. /justsayin
So, one of the primary topics now seems to be the lack of a trinity (or possible lack of it) for EQNext.. It wasn't very long ago that a great number of people (many of them being tired of WoW's mechanics) were screaming and yelling about being rid of the trinity all together.. This discontent seemed to almost directly spawn the genesis of GW2, which many heralded as amazing for its lack of trinity.. But now, hilariously enough, EQNext's not-too-clear stance on the trinity has brought out throngs of trinity-loving statements all over the place..
So.. If you were able to discuss the trinity with the next generation of game developers, what would you say? Where do you stand on the whole trinity issue.. Are you for it? Against it?
GW2 had a lot of blind hype for how the developers marketed it as the anti WoW from day 1.
many fans and verbal WoW haters joined in believing what Anet said, without thinking about why features like the trinity were created.
when players got their hands on the game they soon realized why a non trinity system is bad. I pointed this out in my first spotlight post here on this forum.
now those people who now feel mislead by the GW2 hype experience see just why the trinity is important after the situation with what GW2's lack of trinity shows them.
Why can't we have both in one game. For example, lets take the healer. Allow player A to choose the "trinity" healer and put all their experience into just becoming the best healer in the game. But also allow player B to be a multiclass healer who spends x points in healer and y points in another class. This way everyone is happy.
Personally, i would go for the multiclass healer/other just because I am not the raid healing type. I prefer to just free play with various mixed groups as a PLAYER not as a TRINITY HEALER.
That's still the trinity. Because min/maxers.
in WoW a paladin can heal and DPS and tank. But still trinity class that will be used in a min/max situation most of the time.
"Well, this isn't working... brb while I look up the proper spec/strat for this encounter....". They don't want people feeling they are forced to have roles A, B and C on hand to be effective. They want people to experiment, to figure things out on their own terms and to have fun.
I'm sorry but the fantasy world you forsee doesn't exsist as long as math exsists because their is always a best way and no one crunches numbers like mmo players. and when the most efficient thing is found you will use it or you wont be allowed to group with anyone. its just the way we work if you were late to work because you rode your bike your boss asks why you didnt drive and you said because i like to ride my bike more you wont have a job for long.
Comments
I have to agree with you. I love raiding, but I would give it all up in a minute for a game like pre-CU SWG. I have the fondest memories of that game and it isn't all nostalgia. I truly loved that game. My wife and I both miss it.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Eh, the teamwork will be the same - thats up to the actual players.
And yes, I have raided in EQ, EQ2, AO, WoW... I know what you are trying to say, but its just not correct. In every game I have raided in it always boiled down to the same thing - Learn the strat and then do the dance. As long as you followed the choreography, you were almost certain to win (so long as your healer didn't fall asleep, the tank doesn't go LD and the one DPSer didn't decide "Oh hey, I will just have my kid play for a few minutes while I sneak out for a smoke" and draw aggro...).
And lord forbid your main tank decided that going to the movies with his wife would be more fun than raiding, or the healer decided that going to the ER for a ruptured appendix was more important than the guild raid. Nothing more fun than waiting for a backup to log in or spamming general for anyone who had experience in said raid for hours on end.
The whole point of EQNs system is that yes, while you can still play those roles and they would make life easier, you don't have to have them to proceed.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
It works great in Super Mario Bros though....
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Not really. Not if the fight doesn't require it. Just look at GW2...... Hopefully SOE can come up with something that involves something more.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Although I like the trinity setup, I believe a non-trinity setup can work too. Using GW2 as an example, it seemed every class was able to do everything(heal, tank, DPS, support). Some did cetain aspects better but still could do everything. If the roles of the classes were more open than a player could decide that he or she wants to be a do everything character but he or she could also be more of a straight tank. The game needs designed where each is a viable and useful option. Only time will tell if that is the case for EQN. I am rooting for the devs at SOE to get it right.
I think aggro control is a more appropriate discussion than trinty vs. non-trinity. If aggro control is designed properly than I don't believe the trinity will be as important. Using GW2 again, I didn't feel that the game had much of any aggro control and believe that is what made some turn away from the non-trinity setup.
I could get that the tanking could potentially be that but from what theyve said theyve completely removed the dedicated healer/support role @ 24:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVqv78MfJus
Theyre taking the choice of being a damage dealer or not out of it and in groups i have no interest in being the damage dealer, its boring to me. The combat could be amazing and itll be a game that I enjoy playing solo but thats not what i would like to do in an mmo all the time.
With the current information we have the group play aspect of this game is dead to me.
I do not like the trinity.
or at least a hard-set one.
I would not mind a Soft trinity, whee the roles of it are existent in the combat mechanics but do not limit player possibilities.
Plainly locking a class to one role of either DPS TANKING of HEALING and SUPPORT I think is a very artificial, mechanical and innorganic approach...
On the other hand it would seem to make sense that a character in full plate armor be able to take on more damage than one in leather or cloth.
But I think maybe the multiclass system is there for just that purpose.
What if someone combines a Warrior with a Ranger? How about if that combo permits one to wear heavy armor but use a Bow as the main weapon instead?
They should be able to tank better than lets say a mage/healer combo wearing cloth or leather.
So maybe in reality in EQ next there are Trinity mehcanics but the Trinity is not set in stone in the sense that a player can switch to different roles with the same character as they feel like without being limited by the class to one single role. Yet, the roles per se are still there in the actual combat...
So it depends upon what one chooses to wear maybe allong side what classes they choose to have active?
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
From what they said this isnt possible. The way it works is that you choose a primary class which decides what armour and weapons you can use so mix and matching that isnt possible. It could change though ofc.
1) RPGs aren't split up into MMOs & Single player. And even in the single player RPGs, many of them were based around group dynamics. One example being Xeno Gears. I also look at a game like Dragon's Dogma and think 'there is no reason why this couldn't be an MMO. It doesn't rely on healers, but instead on each party member playing smart and covering each other's weaknesses; in addition to learning your enemy's & exploiting them.
2) I have raided, and I have been in progression guilds in the past. The reason why I don't anymore, is because the time commitment is too much. Given my career I can't afford to have a 2nd weekly job.
The 'difficulty' wasn't in the combat. It was in getting every on the same page (organizing the group), and in learning the boss mechanics. I don't honestly think anyone believes otherwise. This isn't to say that I've never been challenged (some of the fights in vanilla FFXI & WoW were rough), but it had nothing to do w/ it being a trinity game. Most of the time it was due to gear or a first run through learning the mechanics.
Again, that was one developer. I am sure SOE looked at GW2 as a lesson on how not to do it.
At least one can hope.
We will all just have to wait and see.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Not really, with trinity you have to use teamwork or you die. In non-trin games it seems to be set-up that you can succeed without coordination or only minimal teamwork, if any at all. That might not be the non-trin styles fault, but because they made the content too easy.
I do agree it is annoying/time consuming to have to wait for a tank/healer to have a group and i agree that it can get boring doing the same process in combat over and over (but this is the fault of limited mob AI, if more dynamic/random AI, any combat will be more exciting/challenging.
That's why I suggested having other classes able to tank/cc/heal,etc. instead of just a few. That way you wouldn't have to wait on 1 or 2 specific classes (although they would be better at it) to be successful. You would still need the role filled, but maybe 2 classes specced to tank could handle it. And with the multi-skill system you could build them, and it would make the combat different with each combination in group. ex. Ranger built to be support/heal over dps-he could back up heal and cc and would be a unique (or maybe flexible is better term) class-build. You wouldn't have as much trouble getting group together, the combat would be more varied as far as tactics and you could make some fun builds instead of min/max limitations in usual trinity games. People keep saying those that like trinity are resistant to change and should embrace non-trin, but maybe a better Trinity system is the answer.
Again, its not really about teamwork in the trinity system, Its about having the proper cards in hand to play the flush. In a trinity system its all about having the proper team layout. Sure, people have to pay attention, but that is true in non-trin systems as well.
And again, they stated that they did not go GW2 and abolish the trinity. They even stated its still there. The problem is, unlike your normal mob AI, just having the trinity will not always be the best option. And thats what I like. They want a fight to feel like a challenge again, not the whole "Well, this isn't working... brb while I look up the proper spec/strat for this encounter....". They don't want people feeling they are forced to have roles A, B and C on hand to be effective. They want people to experiment, to figure things out on their own terms and to have fun.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Heh.. This thread is hardly pointless.. In fact, it has done exactly what I wanted.. To stimulate discussion over the trinity vs. non-trinity systems and to see vastly different viewpoints..
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
I think a system similar to GW1 would work really well especially with the whole multi-classing system and building your character for a specific encounter. There wasn't really a traditional trinity, they had all the typical classes but because of the multi class system any class could fulfil any role but there was never one build to rule them all.
There was no tanking except for certain abilities that would either mitigate all damage or reduce damage for a period of time but even a warrior wasn't safe once those wore off. You had to rely on team synergy using cc positioning and clever use of skills such as interrupts/energy burns/slows/knockbacks etc. There was no aggro or taunts, although you could use your body to block enemies or your minions and funnel them into a choke point while the squishy team members stand behind you. There was no fixed agro either the mobs will attack whoever they feel like and will usually go for the most important players on your team. They will interrupt your heals or even disable your skills completely. You could dummy cast to force them to use their skills without disabling yours.
This was further reinforced with every mob using the same skills that were available to players which made the game feel more like pvp in a sense. Creatures could use the same energy burning abilities as you could and for someone with low energy pool such as the warrior this could potentially disable him, unable to use any of his abilities. There were obviously exceptions with adrenaline skills and such but generally speaking that was the case. Which if I remember correctly something that was talked about in one of the panels where pve will feel more like pvp and monsters will be able to use similar if not the same skills as those available to you.
Since this core mechanic of stationary tank n spank type gameplay is slowly being transformed into reactive and action based that focuses on movement, the holy trinity would become inefficient. You become more reliant on positioning and reacting to the actions of your enemies. Maybe they could have a similar system like doding in GW2 but instead of dodging different primary classes could have their own method of avoiding damage.
In GW2 any class will dodge like 2 times before depleting their energy pool. What if a warrior could raise his shield for a couple of seconds to block some of the big hitting attacks while a rogue type character would do a dodge instead. Maybe the warrior even creates a type of bubble in front of him so anyone behind him will be safe. This would work nicely with the GW1 positioning and enemy funneling type mechanic for a warrior who could pull the enemies then block them in a narrow path way while the rogue could run around and be more nimble then quickly dodge behind the warriors shield to avoid being focused. I can see the voxel destruction/creation play a huge role in this as well. As we saw in the presentation where a crystal wall appeared out of the ground and then collapsing the bridge, we could trap and direct enemies by altering the environment itself.
Obviously the skill system will be more simplified than that of GW1 but I can see this working very well and actually require team work in harder encounters unlike the zerg spam fest of GW2. Even though there are some cool encounters that are quite difficult, at it's core it's all about timing your dodges and doing the most dps until the next thing comes around that you need to dodge again so the classes you bring hardly ever matter. 4 warriors and a guardian will probably suffice for most encounters.
Although majority of what I just said will probably not work without body blocking so hopefully that's in. I hope it will also have a balance between movement and stationary combat. If everyone just teleporting all over the field and double jumping like crazy it can get pretty chaotic and boring. Even if this is not how EQN will turn out phasing through enemies is pretty lame.
Thing is, this is only true if the person telling the story wants it to be true. Raiding in WoW was pretty damned easy. It was all pretty much Have the right gear, Have the right classes, Learn the dance, stay awake and hope the lag didn't get you. The only raid I can think of that was a pain was when we first entered Sunwell - But by then most of us were bored of the raid game and the quest for loot.
As far as having people who could raid effectively, I agree. There are some people who don't have the reactions or the attention spans to raid in a hardcore raid guild. And after a while I actually started to see things from their point of view. Every raid was the same - Learn the strat, memorize the positions. Hit the button, move to the left to avoid aoe. Hit the button several more times, run to the wall, count to 10 to avoid the nuke and run back into range to continue hitting your rotations. Rinse/repeat. You know it got bad when you were getting praise for being an awesome healer because everyone lived, meanwhile they had no idea you were watching TV the whole time and just keeping rhythm/timing by tapping your foot (tap, tap, tap, tap, heal, tap, tap, tap, cleanse...).
As for GW2, the reason it didn't have something comparable is because the devs made sure it didn't. SOE knows people like to raid, they know people like the bigger group picture. I doubt they will be a foolish as Anet was in this regard.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Nice try, but not really though. You might want to apply what you wrote to your 1337 self.......
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
One of my issues with non-trinity combat systems is the limits it places on encounters. Take World Encounters for example. Bosses have to be tuned to lowest common denominators. Without a tank, hits have to be toned down for the squishies etc etc. These boss encounters tend to turn into massive AOE fests. These huge badass looking boss mobs sit back and launch mob wave after mob wave while keeping some lame ass AOE DoT up. Jormag took so long because you spend half the time in Fear.
So while trinity or not, there will always be AOE to contend with, in a trinity system, there is so much more you can do with the bosses than what you can do in the non trinity where it's assumed everyone will be tanking at some point.
So I am leet now because I don't agree with your opinion and instead found that once you learned the dance raids became boring? I guess punching wholes in your reasoning might have warrented this /shrug
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I don't think its the trinity people want back as much as team work.
MMOs were games where people FILLED roles with peers.
Players want to have roles. They know that now.
There's a psychological aspect to team work part of gaming people are clearly overlooking. Its community and teamwork that people want back; not tanking and healing. Find creative ways to have people support each other, help each other, and lead each other and people will play your game.
the problem is that it's facilitating a discussion without any context to what the EQN system will actually be. i can argue all day long about what i like and dislike about game mechanics. i'm sure there is general consensus that any group game-play should actually promote teamwork and a sense of supporting each other to complete whatever adventure you're on. we saw a lot of teamwork promoted in the original EQ which was amplified by the penalty for failure (corpse run, lost XP). but few games are like original EQ anymore (none are). modern games with the trinity aren't necessarily so special but there are some stand out examples of games that just failed utterly to give a better experience by not having the trinity. i recommend just giving SOE a chance to talk and put some context in place because all these great arguments for or against trinity are pretty much a time waster. time would be better spent discussing what we like/dislike about what has actually been revealed. /justsayin
GW2 had a lot of blind hype for how the developers marketed it as the anti WoW from day 1.
many fans and verbal WoW haters joined in believing what Anet said, without thinking about why features like the trinity were created.
when players got their hands on the game they soon realized why a non trinity system is bad. I pointed this out in my first spotlight post here on this forum.
now those people who now feel mislead by the GW2 hype experience see just why the trinity is important after the situation with what GW2's lack of trinity shows them.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
That's still the trinity. Because min/maxers.
in WoW a paladin can heal and DPS and tank. But still trinity class that will be used in a min/max situation most of the time.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I'm sorry but the fantasy world you forsee doesn't exsist as long as math exsists because their is always a best way and no one crunches numbers like mmo players. and when the most efficient thing is found you will use it or you wont be allowed to group with anyone. its just the way we work if you were late to work because you rode your bike your boss asks why you didnt drive and you said because i like to ride my bike more you wont have a job for long.