In GW2, you can be one shotted by bosses fairly easy. If you think that you can't PM me and I will bring you along for a dungeon crawl. Just prepared to be one shotted alot in the game. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
I do not doubt that... I also would like to assume that those same skills that can one-shot you are the ones that are telegraphed in advance, and not the regular auto-attack, unless you are just completely under geared for that encounter... If I am wrong, I am going to be very surprised.
It really depends on what kind of game you are trying to make...
If your game focuses around dungeon crawling, and groups larger than 3....the trinity system does a great job at allowing the players feel like they have a meaningful role in the experience.
That said, the second question is....are you okay with the game appealing to a niche audience? The problem WOW ran into, in their strive for 10million + subs, was dealing with the reality that "MOST" people want to be the one blowing things up. Support roles (Tanks, Buffers, Healers) are not as popular as damage dealing characters....and serve as a bottleneck for grouping in a system that is dependent on specific roles to be successful in dungeon crawling & boss encounters.
This results in longer than tolerable wait times for the damage dealing characters that don't have access to supporting roles....and that surpplus of damage dealers likely logging off & moving on to another game.
Other role based niche games (like Lineage 2) let the problem solve itself, where games that seek to meet the needs of the "mainstream" will tweak the content & encounters so that support roles are minimized....where a trinity dynamic isn't required.
This might be good for the casual "mainstream" gamers, because it minimizes their time commitment.....but terrible for the traditional MMO gamers that are looking for a more social or team experience. It also promotes an extremely fast burn-out rate among the playerbase, given all that you ever do is burn things down.
This is a good level-headed post.
I agree with the difference in the type of game you're building, but i also think - and it's been mentioned before - that the multi-classing concept on its own helps solve the issue of having enough people to play a certain roll. I know it certainly helped in Rift and TSW. Both those game had players switch to whatever role was needed for the encounter, so there was a lot less "lf healer or lf tank". Dropping the trinity roles altogether seems like an excessive measure if this is all they're trying to accomplish.
Agreed....WOW also tried to solve this issue by going with a new approach to grouping "Bring the Player, not the Class"
Right about that time, they introduced a feature that would allow players to have multiple specializations (which usually include a damage spec & some other support spec)
This "helped" the problem a little.....but didn't solve it. The PvP Scenarios in WOW auto groups everyone & anyone that queued up. The scenarios require similar roles as in PvE to be successful, but more times than not, every character that had the ability to heal refused to do so because they wanted to deal damage. And in some cases, they would rage at anyone that asked them to heal.
The PvE autogrouping mechanic does a little bit better of a job at this, but requiring people queueing up to indicate which roll they are queueing up for.....but even then, you had a disporportionate number of damage dealers to support players queueing up.....making wait times for damage dealers through the roof. Blizzard had to intermingle the pool of players looking for groups across servers to meet the demand. NOW you end up running a dungeon with someone on another server you'll likely never see again.....which introduces all kinds of other unintended consequences.
The only game I've played that didn't have a trinity dynamic, that was effective, was Ultima Online....but then again, that wasn't a scenario based dungeon crawler either.
Originally posted by RizelStar Oh sweet another MMORPG not sticking to the trinity style that so many other games have in the past. This is on my list of must play. Glad I dont need to wait on a role or need a certain role for hard boss fight, me and my team will have to pay attention to details and use our skills. Loved that flame n frost dungeon in gw2, any way take care guys, try to support games that dont follow the norm.
Ah yes, gotta love those boss fights with 2 special abilities.../sigh
You mean literally every traditional MMO that involves either occasional "stand out of fire" or stand in one spot and tank-n-spank?
I'm pretty sure well leveled newbies can do that without any guide
I'd like to see pretty geared newbies taking on dwayna arah path. Now that is fun Even though it got nerfed because of the major Q_Q of WoW kids like yourself it's still somewhat challenging, so yeah i would pretty much like to see you doing it
What? What is so complicated about watching for Dwayna to shoot her attack straight up and then double tapping?
That's it, that's Dwayna's challenging strategy.
Yet the fact remains, its the most failed path. Statistics, just that. Of course she got nerfed because of the WOW players used to tackling any raid with just time being of the essence. Fuck tactics there are no tactics in WOW. Its the same old same old trinity tactic. Let the tanks do their thing, have the healers keep the group alive and let the dps mash them up buttons. In the dwayna encounter at least you need timing ... If you are a good player you'll most likely finish it and get rewarded for it, but oh boy check them out WoW generation
P.S: Of course, lets not put Fractals over stage of 30. No WoW player can handle that :P At least the ones that are crying for trinity anyway
Originally posted by RizelStar Oh sweet another MMORPG not sticking to the trinity style that so many other games have in the past. This is on my list of must play. Glad I dont need to wait on a role or need a certain role for hard boss fight, me and my team will have to pay attention to details and use our skills. Loved that flame n frost dungeon in gw2, any way take care guys, try to support games that dont follow the norm.
Ah yes, gotta love those boss fights with 2 special abilities.../sigh
You mean literally every traditional MMO that involves either occasional "stand out of fire" or stand in one spot and tank-n-spank?
I'm pretty sure well leveled newbies can do that without any guide
I'd like to see pretty geared newbies taking on dwayna arah path. Now that is fun Even though it got nerfed because of the major Q_Q of WoW kids like yourself it's still somewhat challenging, so yeah i would pretty much like to see you doing it
What? What is so complicated about watching for Dwayna to shoot her attack straight up and then double tapping?
That's it, that's Dwayna's challenging strategy.
Yet the fact remains, its the most failed path. Statistics, just that. Of course she got nerfed because of the WOW players used to tackling any raid with just time being of the essence. Fuck tactics there are no tactics in WOW. Its the same old same old trinity tactic. Let the tanks do their thing, have the healers keep the group alive and let the dps mash them up buttons. In the dwayna encounter at least you need timing ... If you are a good player you'll most likely finish it and get rewarded for it, but oh boy check them out WoW generation
P.S: Of course, lets not put Fractals over stage of 30. No WoW player can handle that :P At least the ones that are crying for trinity anyway
Are you perhaps confusing Dwayna with one of the Balth, Grenth or even Lyssa? I'd think one of those examples would give more credibility to your argument. As it is, Malchor's Leap is probably the easiest of the fights.
Originally posted by RizelStar Oh sweet another MMORPG not sticking to the trinity style that so many other games have in the past. This is on my list of must play. Glad I dont need to wait on a role or need a certain role for hard boss fight, me and my team will have to pay attention to details and use our skills. Loved that flame n frost dungeon in gw2, any way take care guys, try to support games that dont follow the norm.
Ah yes, gotta love those boss fights with 2 special abilities.../sigh
You mean literally every traditional MMO that involves either occasional "stand out of fire" or stand in one spot and tank-n-spank?
I'm pretty sure well leveled newbies can do that without any guide
I'd like to see pretty geared newbies taking on dwayna arah path. Now that is fun Even though it got nerfed because of the major Q_Q of WoW kids like yourself it's still somewhat challenging, so yeah i would pretty much like to see you doing it
What? What is so complicated about watching for Dwayna to shoot her attack straight up and then double tapping?
That's it, that's Dwayna's challenging strategy.
Yet the fact remains, its the most failed path. Statistics, just that. Of course she got nerfed because of the WOW players used to tackling any raid with just time being of the essence. Fuck tactics there are no tactics in WOW. Its the same old same old trinity tactic. Let the tanks do their thing, have the healers keep the group alive and let the dps mash them up buttons. In the dwayna encounter at least you need timing ... If you are a good player you'll most likely finish it and get rewarded for it, but oh boy check them out WoW generation
P.S: Of course, lets not put Fractals over stage of 30. No WoW player can handle that :P At least the ones that are crying for trinity anyway
Are you perhaps confusing Dwayna with one of the Balth, Grenth or even Lyssa? I'd think one of those examples would give more credibility to your argument. As it is, Malchor's Leap is probably the easiest of the fights.
He says there are no tactics or stratagy in content that takes the top guilds in the world months to clear while raiding 16 hours a day with no gating....leave him be lol
The entire walkthrough+strat for the largest Malachor's leap orr guide (with every encounter detailed) I can find, is smaller and less complicated than 1 boss fight in Firelands lol
It really depends on what kind of game you are trying to make...
If your game focuses around dungeon crawling, and groups larger than 3....the trinity system does a great job at allowing the players feel like they have a meaningful role in the experience.
That said, the second question is....are you okay with the game appealing to a niche audience? The problem WOW ran into, in their strive for 10million + subs, was dealing with the reality that "MOST" people want to be the one blowing things up. Support roles (Tanks, Buffers, Healers) are not as popular as damage dealing characters....and serve as a bottleneck for grouping in a system that is dependent on specific roles to be successful in dungeon crawling & boss encounters.
This results in longer than tolerable wait times for the damage dealing characters that don't have access to supporting roles....and that surpplus of damage dealers likely logging off & moving on to another game.
Other role based niche games (like Lineage 2) let the problem solve itself, where games that seek to meet the needs of the "mainstream" will tweak the content & encounters so that support roles are minimized....where a trinity dynamic isn't required.
This might be good for the casual "mainstream" gamers, because it minimizes their time commitment.....but terrible for the traditional MMO gamers that are looking for a more social or team experience. It also promotes an extremely fast burn-out rate among the playerbase, given all that you ever do is burn things down.
This is a good level-headed post.
I agree with the difference in the type of game you're building, but i also think - and it's been mentioned before - that the multi-classing concept on its own helps solve the issue of having enough people to play a certain roll. I know it certainly helped in Rift and TSW. Both those game had players switch to whatever role was needed for the encounter, so there was a lot less "lf healer or lf tank". Dropping the trinity roles altogether seems like an excessive measure if this is all they're trying to accomplish.
Agreed....WOW also tried to solve this issue by going with a new approach to grouping "Bring the Player, not the Class"
Right about that time, they introduced a feature that would allow players to have multiple specializations (which usually include a damage spec & some other support spec)
This "helped" the problem a little.....but didn't solve it. The PvP Scenarios in WOW auto groups everyone & anyone that queued up. The scenarios require similar roles as in PvE to be successful, but more times than not, every character that had the ability to heal refused to do so because they wanted to deal damage. And in some cases, they would rage at anyone that asked them to heal.
The PvE autogrouping mechanic does a little bit better of a job at this, but requiring people queueing up to indicate which roll they are queueing up for.....but even then, you had a disporportionate number of damage dealers to support players queueing up.....making wait times for damage dealers through the roof. Blizzard had to intermingle the pool of players looking for groups across servers to meet the demand. NOW you end up running a dungeon with someone on another server you'll likely never see again.....which introduces all kinds of other unintended consequences.
The only game I've played that didn't have a trinity dynamic, that was effective, was Ultima Online....but then again, that wasn't a scenario based dungeon crawler either.
It actually goes beyond the simple Conceptual mechanics and how it should work for players. The way WoW evolved there was no real Social Interaction in it really.
Guild disbanding because the main Tank left not wanting to do a Job every day they logged in and Tank for the other 50 people in the Guild that wanted to get geared. Or healers leaving because of how they were treated.
Those two classes were the most blamed for every wipe, it was always their fault. Even DPS classes left and changed guilds in order to get their gear, if the Tank/Healers of a guild were not up to the raid they wanted gear from.
It became a "me myself and I" game. - because hat is the sole perceived goal of the game, in that game - Everything players do is progress their characters first with levels and then through gear. Everything else is really secondary.
The only social Interaction there was is inside Guilds only, when everyone sits there mashing buttons with the trinity and "socialising" over TS/Vent talking about...not even their in game adventures but exchanging their RL Gossip "More DPS please" yelling from time to time...
You call that a fun game for all?
You mentioned Healers not wanting to Heal in Battlegrounds, well, it is normal. PvP was the only Respit for some classes to actually have fun away from the responsibility of carrying everyone else upon their shoulders outside of them. Of course they could rage.
And that rage was indication of something deeply flawed in the game. For god's sake, a game is supposed to be fun for all, and not throw some people in to anxiety attacks.
Maybe in paper the Trinity "sounds" well and fine, but in practice, along side other mechanics of the game how at all plays together along with the perceived goal if the game by the players and combined with player attitudes...it can be the most self destructive approach.
So, community? What community? A forum full of people insulting one another, a game full of "me myselves and I" expecting everyone else to cater to their needs. Guilds forming and disbanding over Loot...for gods sake, it is just bits and bytes on some server.
DKP and all that Crap rendering the experience even more Organized than a Government Office. People changing guilds like if they change Shirts. Drama, Insensitive Insulting. And really only In guild interaction. That is not a community...that is a Chicken Farm...
UO may not have had the Dungeon Crawling Instanced Scenarios (It did have the Dungeons which were not instanced and Open), but man did it have a Community spirit, conductive to Bonds between people in mutual respect in all its features from PVE to PVP to Crafting to City Building and City management and beyond.
There was a real sense of teamwork i UO a real sense of Camaraderie. It was not about selfish goal seeking. It was about the experience in a Virtual world with everyone else.
What needs to be understood here is a that elements in a game are interrelated. It is not only about the Trinity, it is also about how it affects the rest of the game and is dependent of what the game is about. Because all the elements together will combine with player perception and affect player behavior..which in turn affects how the experience of the game actually feels.
A game that brings out the worst in people and not the best in people is not a good game in my book independently of how much money it brings in.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I'd love to see a game someday where a group of mages could go into a dungeon and using only spells and tactical teamwork do just as well as a trinity group. Unfortunately, MMO's have not reached the complexity yet to do this. That's why I'm so excited about the destructible environment as it opens up even more crowd control options so that tanks are unnecessary. I'd love it just as much if a group of tanks could do a dungeon too. I'm not against trinity roles as much as I am the fact that you always need to have tank, DPS, healer to be effective in group PvE. The more tactical options the better the way I see it. Football or any other sport would be dull if every team used the exact same strategy because it is the only one that was effective.
I went to Slave Pens heroic at the height of WoWs difficulty and two manned it with a Shadowpriest and Enhancement Shaman (both hybrids).
That was not an isolated occasion.
Just because you never tried it, doesnt mean it cant be done. Its actually extremely fun.
Quickly becoming tired of EQN topics turning into GW2 topics.
Please try the Queen's Gauntlet and see how far the devs have come in developing challenging solo material.
Or even Arah or the new AC to see how group material has evolved.
The challenge of a lack of trinity lies mostly in the difficulty of encounters.
The more hate EQN gets for potentially being like GW2, the more attractive it seems to me.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Comments
I do not doubt that... I also would like to assume that those same skills that can one-shot you are the ones that are telegraphed in advance, and not the regular auto-attack, unless you are just completely under geared for that encounter... If I am wrong, I am going to be very surprised.
Agreed....WOW also tried to solve this issue by going with a new approach to grouping "Bring the Player, not the Class"
Right about that time, they introduced a feature that would allow players to have multiple specializations (which usually include a damage spec & some other support spec)
This "helped" the problem a little.....but didn't solve it. The PvP Scenarios in WOW auto groups everyone & anyone that queued up. The scenarios require similar roles as in PvE to be successful, but more times than not, every character that had the ability to heal refused to do so because they wanted to deal damage. And in some cases, they would rage at anyone that asked them to heal.
The PvE autogrouping mechanic does a little bit better of a job at this, but requiring people queueing up to indicate which roll they are queueing up for.....but even then, you had a disporportionate number of damage dealers to support players queueing up.....making wait times for damage dealers through the roof. Blizzard had to intermingle the pool of players looking for groups across servers to meet the demand. NOW you end up running a dungeon with someone on another server you'll likely never see again.....which introduces all kinds of other unintended consequences.
The only game I've played that didn't have a trinity dynamic, that was effective, was Ultima Online....but then again, that wasn't a scenario based dungeon crawler either.
Yet the fact remains, its the most failed path. Statistics, just that. Of course she got nerfed because of the WOW players used to tackling any raid with just time being of the essence. Fuck tactics there are no tactics in WOW. Its the same old same old trinity tactic. Let the tanks do their thing, have the healers keep the group alive and let the dps mash them up buttons. In the dwayna encounter at least you need timing ... If you are a good player you'll most likely finish it and get rewarded for it, but oh boy check them out WoW generation
P.S: Of course, lets not put Fractals over stage of 30. No WoW player can handle that :P At least the ones that are crying for trinity anyway
Are you perhaps confusing Dwayna with one of the Balth, Grenth or even Lyssa? I'd think one of those examples would give more credibility to your argument. As it is, Malchor's Leap is probably the easiest of the fights.
He says there are no tactics or stratagy in content that takes the top guilds in the world months to clear while raiding 16 hours a day with no gating....leave him be lol
The entire walkthrough+strat for the largest Malachor's leap orr guide (with every encounter detailed) I can find, is smaller and less complicated than 1 boss fight in Firelands lol
His examples keep getting worse
It actually goes beyond the simple Conceptual mechanics and how it should work for players. The way WoW evolved there was no real Social Interaction in it really.
Guild disbanding because the main Tank left not wanting to do a Job every day they logged in and Tank for the other 50 people in the Guild that wanted to get geared. Or healers leaving because of how they were treated.
Those two classes were the most blamed for every wipe, it was always their fault. Even DPS classes left and changed guilds in order to get their gear, if the Tank/Healers of a guild were not up to the raid they wanted gear from.
It became a "me myself and I" game. - because hat is the sole perceived goal of the game, in that game - Everything players do is progress their characters first with levels and then through gear. Everything else is really secondary.
The only social Interaction there was is inside Guilds only, when everyone sits there mashing buttons with the trinity and "socialising" over TS/Vent talking about...not even their in game adventures but exchanging their RL Gossip "More DPS please" yelling from time to time...
You call that a fun game for all?
You mentioned Healers not wanting to Heal in Battlegrounds, well, it is normal. PvP was the only Respit for some classes to actually have fun away from the responsibility of carrying everyone else upon their shoulders outside of them. Of course they could rage.
And that rage was indication of something deeply flawed in the game. For god's sake, a game is supposed to be fun for all, and not throw some people in to anxiety attacks.
Maybe in paper the Trinity "sounds" well and fine, but in practice, along side other mechanics of the game how at all plays together along with the perceived goal if the game by the players and combined with player attitudes...it can be the most self destructive approach.
So, community? What community? A forum full of people insulting one another, a game full of "me myselves and I" expecting everyone else to cater to their needs. Guilds forming and disbanding over Loot...for gods sake, it is just bits and bytes on some server.
DKP and all that Crap rendering the experience even more Organized than a Government Office. People changing guilds like if they change Shirts. Drama, Insensitive Insulting. And really only In guild interaction. That is not a community...that is a Chicken Farm...
UO may not have had the Dungeon Crawling Instanced Scenarios (It did have the Dungeons which were not instanced and Open), but man did it have a Community spirit, conductive to Bonds between people in mutual respect in all its features from PVE to PVP to Crafting to City Building and City management and beyond.
There was a real sense of teamwork i UO a real sense of Camaraderie. It was not about selfish goal seeking. It was about the experience in a Virtual world with everyone else.
What needs to be understood here is a that elements in a game are interrelated. It is not only about the Trinity, it is also about how it affects the rest of the game and is dependent of what the game is about. Because all the elements together will combine with player perception and affect player behavior..which in turn affects how the experience of the game actually feels.
A game that brings out the worst in people and not the best in people is not a good game in my book independently of how much money it brings in.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I went to Slave Pens heroic at the height of WoWs difficulty and two manned it with a Shadowpriest and Enhancement Shaman (both hybrids).
That was not an isolated occasion.
Just because you never tried it, doesnt mean it cant be done. Its actually extremely fun.
http://lyrics.iztok.org/verse/Lynyrd_Skynyrd/Simple_Man/80615
Quickly becoming tired of EQN topics turning into GW2 topics.
Please try the Queen's Gauntlet and see how far the devs have come in developing challenging solo material.
Or even Arah or the new AC to see how group material has evolved.
The challenge of a lack of trinity lies mostly in the difficulty of encounters.
The more hate EQN gets for potentially being like GW2, the more attractive it seems to me.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2