But then aren't we back to square one.. YOU swap out ONE required spec for another.. I can see it now and I know that is how some do it.. They send in the Meat Shield plate class uniquely geared and spect to take a beating for a few seconds.. ONCE he has mobs attention, the rest of the group chimes in and DPS's mob.... How is that any different then a normal tank and taunt? People/Guilds will go back to saying "LF Tank spec'd this way, pst"..... GW2 already is doing that indirectly..
If the AI does indeed work as intended, the makeshift tank will not be able to keep the mobs attention indefinitely, because the mob will notice who it should be attacking instead.
Was there a genuine backlash against the trinity or was it a marketing gimmick for games like GW2 that unsuccessfully tried to break away from tradition? I lost interest in WoW years ago but not because of the way it handled classes.
I feel like this whole 'sandbox vs. theme park' meme is also a marketing gimmick meant to encourage simplistic thinking. It turns people into reactionary extremists incapable of defining exactly what they want in an MMO without first putting it through a 'right or wrong' filter. I really wish people would resist using these terms because it takes shades of gray completely out of the conversation.
Wow I could not of said it better myself.
"if u forcefully insert foriegn objects into my? body, i will die"
Show me a heroic raid fight that simple in WoW , and ill clap for you...
Every possible boss fight scenerio that happens in a non trinity game, can (and does) happen in trinity games...where as, there are mechanics in trinity games that couldnt possible be done in non trinity (having healer do specific things like heal the boss to a certain level as well as keeping the raid alive, keep the entire group at a certain level or more damage happens, dispell certain deseases at a certain amount of stacks etc). There are some fights that require healers doing specific things as to not have DPS loss if the DPS do it...there are literally 1000s of diff mechanics that are possible simply because the trinity exists. I have not seen a single mechanic on any boss in any dungon iv done in GW2 that I had not already done as a healer or DPS in WoW.
Dont want all the adds going to the tank only? make them untauntable or have no threat table (as happens on fights every single tier). The examples are endless.
Thats not to say non trinity fights cannot be challenging....but to try and claim trinity is "spoon fed", its quite the awsome statement I have come to expect from MMORPG.com forum posters
That's exactly the problem. To keep fights in a trinity-based game interesting, you need to pile additional mechanics on top that temporarily break the trinity or interfere with it. Think about those examples you just named. What actually makes them interesting is always that you don't just stay within your trinity roles, that you actually make players have to do other things than just tank or just heal.
That is where tactics, skill and coordination actually come into play. When the trinity fails.
I'm sorry ... having class defined trinity is too much spoon fed for me. Tanks only do tanking, healers only do healing, and nothing else. Mobs always go for the tank, and nobody else. The healer heals the tank and mob AoE of there is any
Yay ... so much fun .......
In Gw2 some of us actually figured the aggro patterns and adjust our tactics toward that.
Show me a heroic raid fight that simple in WoW , and ill clap for you...
Every possible boss fight scenerio that happens in a non trinity game, can (and does) happen in trinity games...where as, there are mechanics in trinity games that couldnt possible be done in non trinity (having healer do specific things like heal the boss to a certain level as well as keeping the raid alive, keep the entire group at a certain level or more damage happens, dispell certain deseases at a certain amount of stacks etc). There are some fights that require healers doing specific things as to not have DPS loss if the DPS do it...there are literally 1000s of diff mechanics that are possible simply because the trinity exists. I have not seen a single mechanic on any boss in any dungon iv done in GW2 that I had not already done as a healer or DPS in WoW.
Dont want all the adds going to the tank only? make them untauntable or have no threat table (as happens on fights every single tier). The examples are endless.
Thats not to say non trinity fights cannot be challenging....but to try and claim trinity is "spoon fed", its quite the awsome statement I have come to expect from MMORPG.com forum posters
Seriously ? You put WoW as an example of fun trinity? But to answer your question ... soloing Arah is pretty damn epic. Breaking the stage 30 of the fractals is pretty damn epic. Winning sPvP tournament for the first time is pretty damn epic. 3-manning most paths in Arah is still pretty damn epic
The so called holy trinity narrows your game way too much. The DPS just puts out damage and doesn't give much crap of whats going around them. The healers make sure everyone is alive and well but they don't do anything beyond that (as in you know, evading mobs, crowd control, etc). The tanks line up infront of the heroic raid with panties down and bend over to be whipped for the next hour or so. This is so epic I'm going to explode .....
In Gw2 you manage your own conditions. If you are guardian you can dispel others. So does the mesmer and many other classes. It is called teamwork. You have a choice, to keep the skill for yourself when you get "sick" which could happen the next second, or blow it off at your conditioned teammate which could be retarded and get even more conditions. It makes you think twice before doing stuff. The guy who mash buttons have a tendency to die. I consider the dungeon a failure if we wipe. We 3-manned the new aetherblade dungeon when it was on and we did not wipe. You can put more pressure on your group if you take people out.
Show me a heroic raid fight that simple in WoW , and ill clap for you...
Every possible boss fight scenerio that happens in a non trinity game, can (and does) happen in trinity games...where as, there are mechanics in trinity games that couldnt possible be done in non trinity (having healer do specific things like heal the boss to a certain level as well as keeping the raid alive, keep the entire group at a certain level or more damage happens, dispell certain deseases at a certain amount of stacks etc). There are some fights that require healers doing specific things as to not have DPS loss if the DPS do it...there are literally 1000s of diff mechanics that are possible simply because the trinity exists. I have not seen a single mechanic on any boss in any dungon iv done in GW2 that I had not already done as a healer or DPS in WoW.
Dont want all the adds going to the tank only? make them untauntable or have no threat table (as happens on fights every single tier). The examples are endless.
Thats not to say non trinity fights cannot be challenging....but to try and claim trinity is "spoon fed", its quite the awsome statement I have come to expect from MMORPG.com forum posters
That's exactly the problem. To keep fights in a trinity-based game interesting, you need to pile additional mechanics on top that temporarily break the trinity or interfere with it. Think about those examples you just named. What actually makes them interesting is always that you don't just stay within your trinity roles, that you actually make players have to do other things than just tank or just heal.
That is where tactics, skill and coordination actually come into play. When the trinity fails.
What part of what I said regarding the examples I gave being on top of the standard "boss also doing massive damage to raid and tank, keep raid alive" etc. did you not understand? BTW, the example i gave about healers needing to manage deseases and debuff and healing bosses dont break the trinity.....they just add more things to do with your abilities....healing X instead of Y doesnt break the trinity....
I want to stop before I start crapping on GW2, because its a good game and I think its PVP is some of the best around....but god....the PVE is off the charts simple, its really shocking to me. Go read the tactics or strats for any fractal boss in GW2, then go read the "easiest" heoric boss in any of the last 5 WoW tiers...which goes back to my earlier point. There is not a single thing a dev can put into a non trinity boss fight that cant or hanst already been done in a trinity one...but there are 1000s more in trinity fights that cant be done in non trinity.
And finally....thats not to say non trinity cannot be hard...there have been a few examples in the thread alone showing it, I just hope the guys at SoE are good...
Show me a heroic raid fight that simple in WoW , and ill clap for you...
Every possible boss fight scenerio that happens in a non trinity game, can (and does) happen in trinity games...where as, there are mechanics in trinity games that couldnt possible be done in non trinity (having healer do specific things like heal the boss to a certain level as well as keeping the raid alive, keep the entire group at a certain level or more damage happens, dispell certain deseases at a certain amount of stacks etc). There are some fights that require healers doing specific things as to not have DPS loss if the DPS do it...there are literally 1000s of diff mechanics that are possible simply because the trinity exists. I have not seen a single mechanic on any boss in any dungon iv done in GW2 that I had not already done as a healer or DPS in WoW.
Dont want all the adds going to the tank only? make them untauntable or have no threat table (as happens on fights every single tier). The examples are endless.
Thats not to say non trinity fights cannot be challenging....but to try and claim trinity is "spoon fed", its quite the awsome statement I have come to expect from MMORPG.com forum posters
That's exactly the problem. To keep fights in a trinity-based game interesting, you need to pile additional mechanics on top that temporarily break the trinity or interfere with it. Think about those examples you just named. What actually makes them interesting is always that you don't just stay within your trinity roles, that you actually make players have to do other things than just tank or just heal.
That is where tactics, skill and coordination actually come into play. When the trinity fails.
You have got to be kidding me. Have you ever played FFXI. Have you ever played a thief needing to use sata. Have you ever used skill chains with ancient magic to take down a mob you shouldn t necessarily be fighting quickly, if not properly coordinated you will fail the skill chain, and probably die. Have you ever played a Paladin in FFXI, and used heals on the player with aggro to get it back, not just taunts. Theres many more examples. I love how people think trinity is just, tank rush in , dps mash buttons, healer spams heals on tank. Some games sure, but those are no worse then what GW2 accomplished, by ridding it of the trinity.
I'm sorry ... having class defined trinity is too much spoon fed for me. Tanks only do tanking, healers only do healing, and nothing else. Mobs always go for the tank, and nobody else. The healer heals the tank and mob AoE of there is any
Yay ... so much fun .......
In Gw2 some of us actually figured the aggro patterns and adjust our tactics toward that.
Show me a heroic raid fight that simple in WoW , and ill clap for you...
Every possible boss fight scenerio that happens in a non trinity game, can (and does) happen in trinity games...where as, there are mechanics in trinity games that couldnt possible be done in non trinity (having healer do specific things like heal the boss to a certain level as well as keeping the raid alive, keep the entire group at a certain level or more damage happens, dispell certain deseases at a certain amount of stacks etc). There are some fights that require healers doing specific things as to not have DPS loss if the DPS do it...there are literally 1000s of diff mechanics that are possible simply because the trinity exists. I have not seen a single mechanic on any boss in any dungon iv done in GW2 that I had not already done as a healer or DPS in WoW.
Dont want all the adds going to the tank only? make them untauntable or have no threat table (as happens on fights every single tier). The examples are endless.
Thats not to say non trinity fights cannot be challenging....but to try and claim trinity is "spoon fed", its quite the awsome statement I have come to expect from MMORPG.com forum posters
Seriously ? You put WoW as an example of fun trinity? But to answer your question ... soloing Arah is pretty damn epic. Breaking the stage 30 of the fractals is pretty damn epic. Winning sPvP tournament for the first time is pretty damn epic. 3-manning most paths in Arah is still pretty damn epic
Yes....healing Heroic Tsulong in ToES in WoW (last tier) is some of the msot fin I have ever had in an MMO...what MMO does trinity raid mechanics better? Please do tell, cuz id love to give it a go around...
Dude seriously ... a 40-man raid of which 10 are tanks is not difficult. Regardless of how you put it or what stats you suck out of your fingers. Gw2's content is balanced for 5 players. WoW has 40-man raids, big deal. Of course it will have crazy stats after all it has to be challenging to 40 top geared people ..... Say whatever you want, Gw2's combat is EONS ahead of WoW. Whoever disagrees just doesn't get it apparently and is fragbait everywhere else but PvE.
Can you storm a 50-man zerg and survive in Gw2? Because I do that shit daily. I'd call this pretty damn epic
Some really simplistic thinking is going on here... You can be the designated tank of a group without the taunt based tanking many are used to:
In FFXI, for a good while the best tanks were Ninjas. Because they were capable of high damage, and wouldn't get hit due to their shadow-clones. This worked out well because the whole group worked together to make certain tactics work. For example, the thief had some of the highest burst damage capabilities in the game, and he had a "pass the blame" type ability that he would use. He would position himself behind the ninja, A mage would uber nuke the mob, drawing its attention, then the thief would activate the "pass the blame" ability, and use his biggest move - A backstab type ability. This would cause extreme damage, but the ninja would get all the hate. The mob received tons of damage, and the ninja got all the hate, but couldn't be touched because of the shadow clones.
In EQN, I can see things going much further. People here are still thinking on a 2 dimentional flat terrain. Remember they stated that you can use the environment within your tactics as well. digging pits and causing mobs to get stuck. Bringing up walls, preventing the mobs from progressing. Growing vines limiting movement. Teleporting across terrain traps to keep mobs on other side of cliffs and such. A tank... the designated person to keep the hate focus doesn't need to rely exclusively on getting hit to be the tank. He could have crowd control moves that can be just as effective. If you can't move to the person with a gun because a big brute is holding onto your legs... who are you going to smack? Yep, you try to smack the crap out of the brute until you can break free and go after the gun toting wizard (err person :-P ).
Personally I am excited, because ROLES are being expanded beyond the Trinity, even though the traditional trinity will still be possible.
Dude seriously ... a 40-man raid of which 10 are tanks is not difficult. Regardless of how you put it or what stats you suck out of your fingers. Gw2's content is balanced for 5 players. WoW has 40-man raids, big deal. Of course it will have crazy stats after all it has to be challenging to 40 top geared people ..... Say whatever you want, Gw2's combat is EONS ahead of WoW. Whoever disagrees just doesn't get it apparently and is fragbait everywhere else but PvE.
Can you storm a 50-man zerg and survive in Gw2? Because I do that shit daily
WoW has not had 40 man raids in 7 years....
WoW's heroic raids take months with the top guilds in the world raiding 16 hours a day non stop to clear....but I guess thats just because they suck right?
You should prob research your venom before posting ;-)
I have seen - and still see with every update - complex, challenging and socially-interactive encounters created for trinity-based MMOs.
I have never seen - encounters that are nearly as complex, challenging and socially-interactive created for a non-trinity-based MMO.
For this reason, I would prefer to keep the trinity (and player inter-dependence) intact.
I have seen excellent encounters in action-combat games.
I have seen excellent encounters in games with limited hotbars. I still found the button mashing rather repetitive, but the challenge of encounters and coordinatiion with others were still there.
I have seen excellent encounters in games that have freeform or hybrid class systems.
In each of the three experiences above, encounters were still trinity-based, so this is why i firmly believe that it is the trinity that enabled the design of challenging and cooperation-driven encounters.
Is it possible that great encounters can one day be made without a trinity? Sure. Anything is possible. I just haven't seen it done and given that there is still tons of opportunity to be innovative and challenging using the trinity system, I don't see the need to re-invent this particular mousetrap.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
The simple of what i would say is if your ONLY reason is to avoid waiting for a certain class,that is a really poor excuse and one i do not buy into it.I feel there is a different truth,which i have mentioned in other posts.
Anyhow if that is their only excuse,then make mercs,they already have it in EQ2,so again no excuse.That way if a party needs a certain class they got it.Mercs in Eq2 are quite good and with healing you re good to go,definitely no worse than a total chaotic zerg attack.
In essence that is exactly what EVERY battle becomes in a non organized structure,a ZERG.In reality most groups play that way anyhow even with a Trinity system,but art least with set roles,you have a better organized group and each player knows exactly his/her role.
Perhaps an even bigger factor is you can create a MUCH more difficult and creative combat system with Trinity,otherwise you are creating battles that are based on each solo player.You see with a definitive Tank you have that added defense to survive long enough to get heals.However in a non Trinity you can't make every player that strong or the game is too easy and if you don't ,then each player can easily be killed which is not fun either.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Soki123 Have you ever played a thief needing to use sata. Have you ever used skill chains with ancient magic to take down a mob you shouldn t necessarily be fighting quickly, if not properly coordinated you will fail the skill chain, and probably die. Have you ever played a Paladin in FFXI, and used heals on the player with aggro to get it back, not just taunts. Theres many more examples. I love how people think trinity is just, tank rush in , dps mash buttons, healer spams heals on tank. Some games sure, but those are no worse then what GW2 accomplished, by ridding it of the trinity.
Hah! I wasn't aware we had some FFXI junkies in this threat as well... yeah, Sneak Attack/Trick Attack (sata) is what I was referring to in my post, but the skill move names were redundant I thought since I didn't think anyone knew of that.
This is what I wanted to show in my post.
As for those saying that the "zerg -fest" that GW2 turned into is skilled play... I guess its all about perspective. I am sure an autistic kid loves playing with his rubber ball, and swears its the best game around... personally I would not be entertained by that, but who am I to say his perspective is wrong? To HIM it is...
So more power to you GW2 players... keep on playing. But I need a little more meat on the bones of the game I play.
Can you storm a 50-man zerg and survive in Gw2? Because I do that shit daily.
I don't get this comment. It is supposed to be sarcastic? From what i've seen of GW2's 50-man content, it pretty much all IS a massive zerg, where everyone just does their own thing without consideration or cooperation. I remember doing several of the massive raids and being dead for like 90% of the time, yet the event still being beaten and me getting a reward despite being totally fail.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by Soki123 Have you ever played a thief needing to use sata. Have you ever used skill chains with ancient magic to take down a mob you shouldn t necessarily be fighting quickly, if not properly coordinated you will fail the skill chain, and probably die. Have you ever played a Paladin in FFXI, and used heals on the player with aggro to get it back, not just taunts. Theres many more examples. I love how people think trinity is just, tank rush in , dps mash buttons, healer spams heals on tank. Some games sure, but those are no worse then what GW2 accomplished, by ridding it of the trinity.
Hah! I wasn't aware we had some FFXI junkies in this threat as well... yeah, Sneak Attack/Trick Attack (sata) is what I was referring to in my post, but the skill move names were redundant I thought since I didn't think anyone knew of that.
This is what I wanted to show in my post.
As for those saying that the "zerg -fest" that GW2 turned into is skilled play... I guess its all about perspective. I am sure an autistic kid loves playing with his rubber ball, and swears its the best game around... personally I would not be entertained by that, but who am I to say his perspective is wrong? To HIM it is...
So more power to you GW2 players... keep on playing. But I need a little more meat on the bones of the game I play.
I still have a sub to it, to this day FFXI had some of the most coordinated, tactical, thought out fights I ve ever witnessed. You had to always be on your toes. On top of that, if you got an add, man the group had to scramble to properly use their 2 hours, hopefully the paladin used his/hers after the WHM Benidiction, or the group will wipe, if not near a zone
I have seen - and still see with every update - complex, challenging and socially-interactive encounters created for trinity-based MMOs.
I have never seen - encounters that are nearly as complex, challenging and socially-interactive created for a non-trinity-based MMO.
For this reason, I would prefer to keep the trinity (and player inter-dependence) intact.
This sums it up perfectly. I hope SoE can brainstorm and deliver.
Arieste and dood... just because you haven't seen complex, chanllenging and socially interactive non-trinity encounters in games, doesn't mean these do not exist. You just haven't not been playing the correct game long enough. This style of gaming was paramount in FFXI, and I am sure other games had it as well. In fact, you couldn't kill some of the God mobs in that game if you only focused on the trinity, and I am sure most game out there couldn't hold a candle to how complex, challenging and socially interactive FFXI got.
The simple of what i would say is if your ONLY reason is to avoid waiting for a certain class,that is a really poor excuse and one i do not buy into it.
I really doubt that this is the main or only reason. EQN's class design already solves this without having to remove the trinity. Just look at games like Rift and TSW - both are trinity-based games without set classes. If you're missing a set class, chances are someone can change to that class/spec and off you go. So the multi-classing solves the "LF Healer" issue, no need to remove the trinity to do it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I have seen - and still see with every update - complex, challenging and socially-interactive encounters created for trinity-based MMOs.
I have never seen - encounters that are nearly as complex, challenging and socially-interactive created for a non-trinity-based MMO.
For this reason, I would prefer to keep the trinity (and player inter-dependence) intact.
This sums it up perfectly. I hope SoE can brainstorm and deliver.
Arieste and dood... just because you haven't seen complex, chanllenging and socially interactive non-trinity encounters in games, doesn't mean these do not exist. You just haven't not been playing the correct game long enough. This style of gaming was paramount in FFXI, and I am sure other games had it as well. In fact, you couldn't kill some of the God mobs in that game if you only focused on the trinity, and I am sure most game out there couldn't hold a candle to how complex, challenging and socially interactive FFXI got.
You are correct, I am sure they are out there, but I have not seen them. Im baisng myself mostly on GW2. I have said all along, I am sure there are complex challening non trinity fights and mechanics that encourage gorup diversaty and synergy, I just hope SoE can deliver.
That's fairly easy to explain. No trinity sounded freaking awesome. So people were optimistic about it, then when they tried it they realized it didn't work and are now wanting the system back. I myself NEVER liked the idea of no trinity because I love to tank and see no reason I should be forced into being a glass cannon.
Very much this. Anet did a great job of spinning the "no-trinity" concept in their GW2 Manifesto, and it got a lot of people hyped up.
Arieste and dood... just because you haven't seen complex, chanllenging and socially interactive non-trinity encounters in games, doesn't mean these do not exist. You just haven't not been playing the correct game long enough. This style of gaming was paramount in FFXI, and I am sure other games had it as well. In fact, you couldn't kill some of the God mobs in that game if you only focused on the trinity, and I am sure most game out there couldn't hold a candle to how complex, challenging and socially interactive FFXI got.
Well, we can only go by what we know. I couldn't stand FFXI, so i quit about 10 levels in, so you're right, i didn't see they combat. It's been ages since i played, but i was sure FFXI had trinity-based combat. A quick look at their Wiki page tells me the same thing (quote below) - are you saying it's wrong? (you've played the game, so you tell me, i'm genuinely interested).
From the wiki:
"Players are forced to band into parties in order to defeat more powerful monsters and gain experience points efficiently. A regular party has room for six members. Like in many other games, a well balanced party will consist of several archetypes- namely a healer, a tank (the party member with high defense that will be the main target of the monster), and the damage dealer. The enmity system comes into play heavily in parties, as players try to keep the monsters attention off fragile jobs and on the tanks. A well balanced team working together is the only way to defeat many of the game's enemies. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XI)
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Oh sweet another MMORPG not sticking to the trinity style that so many other games have in the past. This is on my list of must play. Glad I dont need to wait on a role or need a certain role for hard boss fight, me and my team will have to pay attention to details and use our skills. Loved that flame n frost dungeon in gw2, any way take care guys, try to support games that dont follow the norm.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Arieste and dood... just because you haven't seen complex, chanllenging and socially interactive non-trinity encounters in games, doesn't mean these do not exist. You just haven't not been playing the correct game long enough. This style of gaming was paramount in FFXI, and I am sure other games had it as well. In fact, you couldn't kill some of the God mobs in that game if you only focused on the trinity, and I am sure most game out there couldn't hold a candle to how complex, challenging and socially interactive FFXI got.
Well, we can only go by what we know. I couldn't stand FFXI, so i quit about 10 levels in, so you're right, i didn't see they combat. It's been ages since i played, but i was sure FFXI had trinity-based combat. A quick look at their Wiki page tells me the same thing (quote below) - are you saying it's wrong? (you've played the game, so you tell me, i'm genuinely interested).
From the wiki:
"Players are forced to band into parties in order to defeat more powerful monsters and gain experience points efficiently. A regular party has room for six members. Like in many other games, a well balanced party will consist of several archetypes- namely a healer, a tank (the party member with high defense that will be the main target of the monster), and the damage dealer. The enmity system comes into play heavily in parties, as players try to keep the monsters attention off fragile jobs and on the tanks. A well balanced team working together is the only way to defeat many of the game's enemies. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XI)
"Non-trinity Encounters" is what I said... not that the whole game didn't have a trinity. The game did have the trinity, specially before you could unlock ninjas. Ninjas were non-traditional tanks, who relied on others and their own dps for hate generation, and a non-traditional way of avoiding damage, instead of plate armor. Due to their method of avoidance, they could survive without a tank, and sometimes even without a healer.
While the game HAD a trinity you could use, the most effective parties used ninjas, thieves & black mages, as well as some nicely planned skill-chains (Attacks that fed off other attacks from other players to cause additional effects/damage).
In any case, this whole conversation is not about this game not having a trinity, because it does, it is that people CLAIM that because of the mechanics in the game, the trinity is broken. Which is false. We have been trying to prove that you do not need to be an iron clad sword wielding meat-shield with a taunt mechanic to be a successful tank. That was the purpose of my post. Using proper in game skils, mechanics and terrain, you can be a very effective Tank, and still keep the "trinity" viable.
Originally posted by RizelStar Oh sweet another MMORPG not sticking to the trinity style that so many other games have in the past. This is on my list of must play. Glad I dont need to wait on a role or need a certain role for hard boss fight, me and my team will have to pay attention to details and use our skills. Loved that flame n frost dungeon in gw2, any way take care guys, try to support games that dont follow the norm.
Ah yes, gotta love those boss fights with 2 special abilities.../lol
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If the AI does indeed work as intended, the makeshift tank will not be able to keep the mobs attention indefinitely, because the mob will notice who it should be attacking instead.
Wow I could not of said it better myself.
"if u forcefully insert foriegn objects into my? body, i will die"
That's exactly the problem. To keep fights in a trinity-based game interesting, you need to pile additional mechanics on top that temporarily break the trinity or interfere with it. Think about those examples you just named. What actually makes them interesting is always that you don't just stay within your trinity roles, that you actually make players have to do other things than just tank or just heal.
That is where tactics, skill and coordination actually come into play. When the trinity fails.
Seriously ? You put WoW as an example of fun trinity?
But to answer your question ... soloing Arah is pretty damn epic. Breaking the stage 30 of the fractals is pretty damn epic. Winning sPvP tournament for the first time is pretty damn epic. 3-manning most paths in Arah is still pretty damn epic
The so called holy trinity narrows your game way too much. The DPS just puts out damage and doesn't give much crap of whats going around them. The healers make sure everyone is alive and well but they don't do anything beyond that (as in you know, evading mobs, crowd control, etc). The tanks line up infront of the heroic raid with panties down and bend over to be whipped for the next hour or so. This is so epic I'm going to explode .....
In Gw2 you manage your own conditions. If you are guardian you can dispel others. So does the mesmer and many other classes. It is called teamwork. You have a choice, to keep the skill for yourself when you get "sick" which could happen the next second, or blow it off at your conditioned teammate which could be retarded and get even more conditions. It makes you think twice before doing stuff. The guy who mash buttons have a tendency to die. I consider the dungeon a failure if we wipe. We 3-manned the new aetherblade dungeon when it was on and we did not wipe. You can put more pressure on your group if you take people out.
What part of what I said regarding the examples I gave being on top of the standard "boss also doing massive damage to raid and tank, keep raid alive" etc. did you not understand? BTW, the example i gave about healers needing to manage deseases and debuff and healing bosses dont break the trinity.....they just add more things to do with your abilities....healing X instead of Y doesnt break the trinity....
I want to stop before I start crapping on GW2, because its a good game and I think its PVP is some of the best around....but god....the PVE is off the charts simple, its really shocking to me. Go read the tactics or strats for any fractal boss in GW2, then go read the "easiest" heoric boss in any of the last 5 WoW tiers...which goes back to my earlier point. There is not a single thing a dev can put into a non trinity boss fight that cant or hanst already been done in a trinity one...but there are 1000s more in trinity fights that cant be done in non trinity.
And finally....thats not to say non trinity cannot be hard...there have been a few examples in the thread alone showing it, I just hope the guys at SoE are good...
You have got to be kidding me. Have you ever played FFXI. Have you ever played a thief needing to use sata. Have you ever used skill chains with ancient magic to take down a mob you shouldn t necessarily be fighting quickly, if not properly coordinated you will fail the skill chain, and probably die. Have you ever played a Paladin in FFXI, and used heals on the player with aggro to get it back, not just taunts. Theres many more examples. I love how people think trinity is just, tank rush in , dps mash buttons, healer spams heals on tank. Some games sure, but those are no worse then what GW2 accomplished, by ridding it of the trinity.
Yes....healing Heroic Tsulong in ToES in WoW (last tier) is some of the msot fin I have ever had in an MMO...what MMO does trinity raid mechanics better? Please do tell, cuz id love to give it a go around...
Dude seriously ... a 40-man raid of which 10 are tanks is not difficult. Regardless of how you put it or what stats you suck out of your fingers. Gw2's content is balanced for 5 players. WoW has 40-man raids, big deal. Of course it will have crazy stats after all it has to be challenging to 40 top geared people ..... Say whatever you want, Gw2's combat is EONS ahead of WoW. Whoever disagrees just doesn't get it apparently and is fragbait everywhere else but PvE.
Can you storm a 50-man zerg and survive in Gw2? Because I do that shit daily. I'd call this pretty damn epic
Some really simplistic thinking is going on here... You can be the designated tank of a group without the taunt based tanking many are used to:
In FFXI, for a good while the best tanks were Ninjas. Because they were capable of high damage, and wouldn't get hit due to their shadow-clones. This worked out well because the whole group worked together to make certain tactics work. For example, the thief had some of the highest burst damage capabilities in the game, and he had a "pass the blame" type ability that he would use. He would position himself behind the ninja, A mage would uber nuke the mob, drawing its attention, then the thief would activate the "pass the blame" ability, and use his biggest move - A backstab type ability. This would cause extreme damage, but the ninja would get all the hate. The mob received tons of damage, and the ninja got all the hate, but couldn't be touched because of the shadow clones.
In EQN, I can see things going much further. People here are still thinking on a 2 dimentional flat terrain. Remember they stated that you can use the environment within your tactics as well. digging pits and causing mobs to get stuck. Bringing up walls, preventing the mobs from progressing. Growing vines limiting movement. Teleporting across terrain traps to keep mobs on other side of cliffs and such. A tank... the designated person to keep the hate focus doesn't need to rely exclusively on getting hit to be the tank. He could have crowd control moves that can be just as effective. If you can't move to the person with a gun because a big brute is holding onto your legs... who are you going to smack? Yep, you try to smack the crap out of the brute until you can break free and go after the gun toting wizard (err person :-P ).
Personally I am excited, because ROLES are being expanded beyond the Trinity, even though the traditional trinity will still be possible.
WoW has not had 40 man raids in 7 years....
WoW's heroic raids take months with the top guilds in the world raiding 16 hours a day non stop to clear....but I guess thats just because they suck right?
You should prob research your venom before posting ;-)
For me, it comes down to this:
I have seen - and still see with every update - complex, challenging and socially-interactive encounters created for trinity-based MMOs.
I have never seen - encounters that are nearly as complex, challenging and socially-interactive created for a non-trinity-based MMO.
For this reason, I would prefer to keep the trinity (and player inter-dependence) intact.
I have seen excellent encounters in action-combat games.
I have seen excellent encounters in games with limited hotbars. I still found the button mashing rather repetitive, but the challenge of encounters and coordinatiion with others were still there.
I have seen excellent encounters in games that have freeform or hybrid class systems.
In each of the three experiences above, encounters were still trinity-based, so this is why i firmly believe that it is the trinity that enabled the design of challenging and cooperation-driven encounters.
Is it possible that great encounters can one day be made without a trinity? Sure. Anything is possible. I just haven't seen it done and given that there is still tons of opportunity to be innovative and challenging using the trinity system, I don't see the need to re-invent this particular mousetrap.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
The simple of what i would say is if your ONLY reason is to avoid waiting for a certain class,that is a really poor excuse and one i do not buy into it.I feel there is a different truth,which i have mentioned in other posts.
Anyhow if that is their only excuse,then make mercs,they already have it in EQ2,so again no excuse.That way if a party needs a certain class they got it.Mercs in Eq2 are quite good and with healing you re good to go,definitely no worse than a total chaotic zerg attack.
In essence that is exactly what EVERY battle becomes in a non organized structure,a ZERG.In reality most groups play that way anyhow even with a Trinity system,but art least with set roles,you have a better organized group and each player knows exactly his/her role.
Perhaps an even bigger factor is you can create a MUCH more difficult and creative combat system with Trinity,otherwise you are creating battles that are based on each solo player.You see with a definitive Tank you have that added defense to survive long enough to get heals.However in a non Trinity you can't make every player that strong or the game is too easy and if you don't ,then each player can easily be killed which is not fun either.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This sums it up perfectly. I hope SoE can brainstorm and deliver.
Hah! I wasn't aware we had some FFXI junkies in this threat as well... yeah, Sneak Attack/Trick Attack (sata) is what I was referring to in my post, but the skill move names were redundant I thought since I didn't think anyone knew of that.
This is what I wanted to show in my post.
As for those saying that the "zerg -fest" that GW2 turned into is skilled play... I guess its all about perspective. I am sure an autistic kid loves playing with his rubber ball, and swears its the best game around... personally I would not be entertained by that, but who am I to say his perspective is wrong? To HIM it is...
So more power to you GW2 players... keep on playing. But I need a little more meat on the bones of the game I play.
I don't get this comment. It is supposed to be sarcastic? From what i've seen of GW2's 50-man content, it pretty much all IS a massive zerg, where everyone just does their own thing without consideration or cooperation. I remember doing several of the massive raids and being dead for like 90% of the time, yet the event still being beaten and me getting a reward despite being totally fail.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I still have a sub to it, to this day
FFXI had some of the most coordinated, tactical, thought out fights I ve ever witnessed. You had to always be on your toes. On top of that, if you got an add, man the group had to scramble to properly use their 2 hours, hopefully the paladin used his/hers after the WHM Benidiction, or the group will wipe, if not near a zone 
Arieste and dood... just because you haven't seen complex, chanllenging and socially interactive non-trinity encounters in games, doesn't mean these do not exist. You just haven't not been playing the correct game long enough. This style of gaming was paramount in FFXI, and I am sure other games had it as well. In fact, you couldn't kill some of the God mobs in that game if you only focused on the trinity, and I am sure most game out there couldn't hold a candle to how complex, challenging and socially interactive FFXI got.
I really doubt that this is the main or only reason. EQN's class design already solves this without having to remove the trinity. Just look at games like Rift and TSW - both are trinity-based games without set classes. If you're missing a set class, chances are someone can change to that class/spec and off you go. So the multi-classing solves the "LF Healer" issue, no need to remove the trinity to do it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
You are correct, I am sure they are out there, but I have not seen them. Im baisng myself mostly on GW2. I have said all along, I am sure there are complex challening non trinity fights and mechanics that encourage gorup diversaty and synergy, I just hope SoE can deliver.
I do not mind the approach without a hard trinity of roles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SWkpRtfRjYU
The question about the trinity is asked at 38:30 and debunked for several minutes to 42:00
I happen to agree with the Devs on this view.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Very much this. Anet did a great job of spinning the "no-trinity" concept in their GW2 Manifesto, and it got a lot of people hyped up.
Well, we can only go by what we know. I couldn't stand FFXI, so i quit about 10 levels in, so you're right, i didn't see they combat. It's been ages since i played, but i was sure FFXI had trinity-based combat. A quick look at their Wiki page tells me the same thing (quote below) - are you saying it's wrong? (you've played the game, so you tell me, i'm genuinely interested).
From the wiki:
"Players are forced to band into parties in order to defeat more powerful monsters and gain experience points efficiently. A regular party has room for six members. Like in many other games, a well balanced party will consist of several archetypes- namely a healer, a tank (the party member with high defense that will be the main target of the monster), and the damage dealer. The enmity system comes into play heavily in parties, as players try to keep the monsters attention off fragile jobs and on the tanks. A well balanced team working together is the only way to defeat many of the game's enemies. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XI)
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
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"Non-trinity Encounters" is what I said... not that the whole game didn't have a trinity. The game did have the trinity, specially before you could unlock ninjas. Ninjas were non-traditional tanks, who relied on others and their own dps for hate generation, and a non-traditional way of avoiding damage, instead of plate armor. Due to their method of avoidance, they could survive without a tank, and sometimes even without a healer.
While the game HAD a trinity you could use, the most effective parties used ninjas, thieves & black mages, as well as some nicely planned skill-chains (Attacks that fed off other attacks from other players to cause additional effects/damage).
In any case, this whole conversation is not about this game not having a trinity, because it does, it is that people CLAIM that because of the mechanics in the game, the trinity is broken. Which is false. We have been trying to prove that you do not need to be an iron clad sword wielding meat-shield with a taunt mechanic to be a successful tank. That was the purpose of my post. Using proper in game skils, mechanics and terrain, you can be a very effective Tank, and still keep the "trinity" viable.
Ah yes, gotta love those boss fights with 2 special abilities.../lol