Originally posted by bexinh This is exactly what i concern. No level ok but no tanks or heals its gonna be disaster. Imagine u wear heavy metal armor and casting fire balls, or everyone just go range dps and screw melee. Oh oh... so we can ping pong the boss from 1 side to the other. And there goes my last hope of MMO. Havent played any game for months and hoping for EQN to bring back my memory i will stay buy and play it give it a fair go but... we just gonna have to wait and see
That's just it, armor and healing can't mean anything in an action game unless everyone can use them and if everyone can use them, then the content is adjusted for it and you're stuck with doing damage, running away for a few seconds to avoid red area, then run back in and do damage, back and forth ad nauseum. It really promotes self preservation and takes away from team tactics and turns everything into "simon says". For me, it becomes exhausting, frustrating and is the reason why I fled from arcade games to RPGs and avoid console games like the plague.
You're still looking at this from a themepark perspective. Those roles and mechanics may not be optimum for themepark based progression like raids or dungeons but then again this isn't a themepark mmorpg. GW2's problem was they took a traditionally themepark system, like the holy trinity, and turned it on it's head without thinking through how to handle the gameplay elements that allowed it to thrive, namely raids and dungeons.
But in the case of EQN this is a sandbox mmorpg and the semi-action based mechanics may actually work in this setting. The only people that seem to have issue are those programed to think a themepark progression based way is the only way. I say wait for the gameplay elements to surface to see how their combat system can deal with it before condemning it.
I don't play themepark games, and I don't feel that way.
I feel like the combat will be bad because I understand how AI works, being a computer programmer. I also understand what made games good in the past, and its irrelevant to dungeons or raids, it was the mechanics that promoted player interdependence. Both the ability to switch classes on the fly, multi-class AND the removal of necessary roles in combat just does not make for intelligent combat. They already effectively removed the need for any player interdependence via class specific abilities by allowing players to switch and combine abilities, but going further and dumbing down combat (I don't care how much "emergent AI" there is) is just taking it too far. A combat system that allows players to succeed without any necessary roles will ALWAYS result in playing cat and mouse, kiting and button mashing dps. The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious that the whole system was designed to be viable on a handheld controller (Playstation 4 anyone?). Come on, a maximum of 4 class abilities? Get real.
Originally posted by Rydeson There is NOTHING new with action based twitch combat.. It's been done recently by a number of companies and NONE of them are Earth movers and shakers.. Every single action game has evolved into dps zerg fights for the most part.. To deny that is just denial to one self and others.. We'll see if EQN falls in line in being the next dps ZergQuest ..
Has it been done in a sandbox mmorpg before? If so please enlighten me. Because last time I checked all the sanbox mmorpgs I've played in the past used the traditional mmo mechanics and they were all zerg fights... There was no holy trinity, so try again.
WHAT? The style of combat has nothing to do with whether a game is theme park or sandbox..... You can have trinity (roles) in both , and you can have twitch in both... I fail to see what you're trying to discuss..
My point is zerg fighting has been part of the mmo genre far longer than action combat. More importantly zerg fighting was the only way to kill bigger world bosses and huge mobs that littered the sandbox world. This is because there were no hard coded trinity mechanics in games like UO, AC or SWG. Sure you could spec to take a few more hits, but there was no tanking a world boss in those games.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by bexinh This is exactly what i concern. No level ok but no tanks or heals its gonna be disaster. Imagine u wear heavy metal armor and casting fire balls, or everyone just go range dps and screw melee. Oh oh... so we can ping pong the boss from 1 side to the other. And there goes my last hope of MMO. Havent played any game for months and hoping for EQN to bring back my memory i will stay buy and play it give it a fair go but... we just gonna have to wait and see
That's just it, armor and healing can't mean anything in an action game unless everyone can use them and if everyone can use them, then the content is adjusted for it and you're stuck with doing damage, running away for a few seconds to avoid red area, then run back in and do damage, back and forth ad nauseum. It really promotes self preservation and takes away from team tactics and turns everything into "simon says". For me, it becomes exhausting, frustrating and is the reason why I fled from arcade games to RPGs and avoid console games like the plague.
You're still looking at this from a themepark perspective. Those roles and mechanics may not be optimum for themepark based progression like raids or dungeons but then again this isn't a themepark mmorpg. GW2's problem was they took a traditionally themepark system, like the holy trinity, and turned it on it's head without thinking through how to handle the gameplay elements that allowed it to thrive, namely raids and dungeons.
But in the case of EQN this is a sandbox mmorpg and the semi-action based mechanics may actually work in this setting. The only people that seem to have issue are those programed to think a themepark progression based way is the only way. I say wait for the gameplay elements to surface to see how their combat system can deal with it before condemning it.
I don't play themepark games, and I don't feel that way.
I feel like the combat will be bad because I understand how AI works, being a computer programmer. I also understand what made games good in the past, and its irrelevant to dungeons or raids, it was the mechanics that promoted player interdependence. Both the ability to switch classes on the fly, multi-class AND the removal of necessary roles in combat just does not make for intelligent combat. They already effectively removed the need for any player interdependence via class specific abilities by allowing players to switch and combine abilities, but going further and dumbing down combat (I don't care how much "emergent AI" there is) is just taking it too far. A combat system that allows players to succeed without any necessary roles will ALWAYS result in playing cat and mouse, kiting and button mashing dps. The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious that the whole system was designed to be viable on a handheld controller (Playstation 4 anyone?). Come on, a maximum of 4 class abilities? Get real.
You say intelligent combat and I say scripted combat. Never has there been a mmo to this date that had mobs smart enough to have players actually thinking. As a matter of fact, with so many players drunk off themepark mechanics making add-ons to "assist" with raids and such, thinking is the last thing these players are trying to accomplish.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by itchmon shouldnt we at least see a minute or two of game play before we say the game has unresolved issues? I'm not saying people cant theorycraft (or theoryquest) but lets not bury the poor game even before we have seen actual gameplay footage.
This is the kind of comments I saw on the SWTOR forums during beta. And we know how that turned out. I say, if the MMO community wanted Action combat then the community would be playing Tera or PlanetSide (1 or 2).
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Originally posted by itchmon shouldnt we at least see a minute or two of game play before we say the game has unresolved issues?
On these forums? Pfft.
A tech demo of a human female wizard and a male Kerran warrior had people crying about Disney graphics and making every unfounded doom and gloom prediction possible. Why would a few panels from SOE Live be any different?
It's too much to ask people to wait for real gameplay, more in depth info and real, hands-on experience before deciding that EQN is a failure for this, that or the other reason.
Every single MMOrpg i played has boring combat, every single one and no exception.
Combat: Combat is never the main reason i play a game - combat is a tool to me that i at times have to use to accomplish a task i want get done. If combat iooks nice its still a tool that simply looks nice and if it looks ugly its a tool that looks ugly but i am quite happy as long the tool does its job.
So if the task i have to combat for does not motivate me bcs i feel its mundane and has no impact whatsoever it does not matter if it is arcade or hotbar combat and if i am motivated it does not matter either.
The question is if the game offers me Motivation to combat, or craft, or explore or whatever i can do.
Look: The look and feel of the World matters somewhat, as long i find places i do not hate i am ok.
Very Urgent is the look and feel of my Avatar bcs it is my virtual "Alter Ego"! I do not accept the slightest weakness regarding to my Avatars look and feel. As Male i have the highest expectations for Male Avatars, and lower expectations the farther i move away from humanoid Avatars.
I do not feel any Motivation to play a Disney-Avatar of any Kind! I can laugh over the movies for the 1,5 or 2 hours i watch them but i dont feel the slightest interest to be like one of them, not even virtual!
The last good male Avatar i had was in "Pirates of the Burning Sea". They had a more reasonable shape while being spot on for the games theme.
Hype: What we have seen is Alpha footage, the Parcour thing is nice, i liked double jumping in Perfect World but i am underimpressed that they said this will happen automatically. I dont understand where the fun lies in automated gameplay...
Imho they have developed Lore, a World Engine Demo and some good to outstanding goals what they want to do but i doubt that they have even the slightest clue yet, how they will really get there. I dont expect them having more than some placeholder systems in their Alpha Demo yet.
So i hyped this game 8 purely for the Lore + Goals they have but the demo is actually a 4 or 5 and the Avatar look is 3: Shape, Size, Equipment, Colouring, Textures, everything is absurd and/or underwhelming!
And its SOE and i dont give a damn about their promises, they need to deliver!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
In GW2 if u don't have a plate class in the group, how exactly do u do a dungeon ? Guardians are almost mandatory.
Devs are removing the trinity because it's boring, they want new challenges for players and new ways of playing the game instead of having most of the DPS waiting ages to be in a group because they are just "another DPS".
We don't know how they'll handle the combat exactly, there can be crowd control, barriers, damage prevention, massive debuffs and all, u don't always need to just have a dude who keeps aggro and soaks damage along with a heal bot sitting behind, watching TV, reading a book, eating a hot dog and pressing his macros once in a while to keep his party healed.
People who cry for trinity are just lazy, reluctant to change and don't want the MMO genre to progress.
You can always play EQ1 and WoW they are still around and EQ's free btw. U got all the complete heal u want.
So says you.
The trinity or tank role is not only the foundation of rpg combat, but has existed in games since before the genre all the way back to pen and paper.
Everquest made the aggro system very enjoyable, and nothing even close to the trivial systems that exist in new MMOs or even EQ1 and EQ2 in their current state. The aggro management meta game was a very active, very challenging part of combat that required tanks to constantly fight against every other role to maintain threat. Every single fight mobs would run after enchanters, shamans, dps or healers at some point if things didn't work perfectly. With support trying to slow mobs, dps trying to kill as fast as possible, and healers having to heal as mobs ran among the squishy targets, it was only a matter of time before things went wrong. That was the nature of a good aggro system, and just because it doesn't exist as such today, doesn't mean it should be done away with. It should be brought back in full force with all the original challenging factors intact and more.
Sorry, but you're wrong on this. I've been playing Dungeons & Dragons since 1978. The Fighter has no ability to 'taunt' or hold 'aggro' within the rules (as I look at my 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Players Handbook). The class has the ability to wear heavy armor, use a shield, and has good hit points, but if that equates to 'tank' then that exists in EQN, because we know we have plate wearing characters. It wasn't until 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons that we saw anything at all like this (and it was largely panned as smacking of silly MMORPG mechanics by long-time players).
Furthermore, the cleric (or healer class of your trinity) was expected to get in there and swing their mace (they could only cast but a handful of spells each day as D&D utilizes what is commonly referred to as a 'Vancian' spell system (see the works of Jack Vance). Does that make them a DPS class? That seems closer to what EQN seems to be promoting. You can heal, but you can also do damage.
The truth is, EQN is far closer to D&D than any of the past MMORGs have been. DMs (Dungeon Masters) look at the battle as its happening and try to make the best decisions for the monsters. If I see some wizard or cleric in the back ranks trying to ruin my day with their silly spells, you can damn well be sure I'm going to try and put an end to it.
Don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but I see alot of people complaining about that fact it has 8 skill buttons, for the uninformed original EQ only had 8 skill buttons to (for casters) and if my memory serves me correctly the same for combat skills (although you could click the arrow to to get more)
It meant that you had to make hard choices as to what to have available to you, I know it meant you had to have SKILL to play and not just smash buttons...
Yes, but say for a caster, 4 are now weapon skills, not spells/abilities, and you cannot count attack, as it was not a gem, but a on/off, kick wasn't on there etc....
So if you are a caster now, you get 4 weapon skills, if I wanted to be a melee, I would play a melee class or a hybrid class...So we have to see what they do here....Also, from the sounds of it, you cannot spam abilities, so of your 4 abilities, it is probably only viable to have 2 at the most be offensive abilities....So as a cast I would have 2 offensive spells to do damage, that seems boring to me....Now this is not counting my weapon skills, and assuming that they are going to make you actually fight close quarters while you wait for your mana/stamina on your 4 main abilities to come back.
I am sorry, but having 1-2 offensive spells, verse say 5-6 spells or more in EQ1 is very different, and to just compare the number does not work. I even stacked 7 offensive on some raids and such as a necromancer, as you always had feign death up and it is utility....Yeah you had to keep track of your dots wearing off, to recast, threat management with FD, and such, but I had way more than 1-2 offensive spells....This is my worry, as I cannot see me having fun if I have 2 spells to cast that do damage...So unless they figure something out, which who knows maybe they will, but they sure didn't reveal it, so if they don't want us speculating or complaining, then they should of revealed how they will really solve these problems that they know exist.
They have a lot of problems, and to say they will have a successful answer for each, is not realistic imo, I am not a SoE hater, and EQ is a top 2 mmo for me, but say they have 5 major problems, if they solve 3, and they work great, that is huge imo....The other 2 having marginal answers will leave work for later or the next game maker.
EQ Next is a third-person shooter which will go through a 1-2 year PC test phase guised as a release. Once debugged, it will release as a Playstation exclusive in order to draw sales to said Playstation consoles.
Also, everyone complaining about people voicing concerns about their systems, NOW is the time to do so, no matter what they are saying....When do you propose people voice concerns and changes? The week of launch? When is it easier to change something? Right now, the further you go down the road, the less likely anything is going to be changed.
They said they read everything in the panel, so even if something small from someone that is 100% negative about EQN sparks something that may make a developer say, "That could work".
Yeah some of the stuff is never going to happen, BUT you may get a stand back utility class back, if people voice concerns enough, yeah they said you could do it, but they basically bit their toungue when they were going to pretty much say, yeah you could do it, but you would gimp your group, if you didn't go in and melee, because you are not in the design.
I also see huge problems with 4 actions and 40 classes, I see a lot of this being just visual/flash, as to balance things, I think it is going to be very hard for a combo to not be a fotm, unless most of the abilities about do the same thing, but have different graphics to make your abilities have a certain visual appearance...While cool, it is rather bland....So this is one huge area we have to see what they will do. I also have to see the 4 weapon skills, and how they handle this with what is traditionally a pure caster....Ahh...It did just pop into my head, in one article they said their would be guns, which they didn't get into at the convention I do not think, so I guess a stand back caster could have a gun....Kind of odd, but better than being melee as a caster I guess....I just remembered that part of the initial reveal article from the E3 reveal to MMORPG.
I am all for waiting to see, but equally, lets discuss it, critique it now, early and often, if you wait till open beta, not much will change.
SOE should really hire you guys, you seem to know so much about game development and what EQN is all about that they'd sure profit from your expertise.
I mean, we've seen some tiny tidbits of pre-alpha "gameplay" and you're all over the place with your predictions and judgments about how the combat and classes will work.
A lack of trinity only mean chaos and zerging if you keep the old PvE mechanics as you remove traditional tanking and healing. Have you ever considered the possibility that PvE in this game might not be the traditional MMO PvE with stupid mobs and scripted AI? That it maight involve a new concept of skillful play and player coordination, where the tired old tank n' spank mechanic becomes obsolete?
They've already mentioned that mob AI will be of a new and different kind, so at least wait until they've had a chance to prove this before writing the combat off as a no-skill zergfest.
This is exactly why some developers choose to keep their games secret, and it's exactly why betas are now paid-previews. Thousands of morons running around filling in the blanks with their own dumb ideas before they have all of the information.
If the game was even six months away from release, I might be inclined to chime in on some of this stuff, but it's more likely to be 1 to 1.5 years away from release, and is clearly in alpha or even pre-alpha form.
In the live stream, and within the first three minutes of the Class Panel video, the point is made by SOE that nothing is set in stone yet, especially with the classes. Not only that, SOE has set up the Round Table website to specifically ask players opinions about bits of the game that are still not set in stone.
If you have concerns, I suggest you put them together without your own made up assumptions thrown in. Make the point and wait for an answer. I've seen so many poorly thought out assumptions made on this site in the past week, that it almost makes me want to delete my account and move on. The stupid burns that bad.
For example, people who note that the mobs didn't move in the combat demo have no idea that we've already been told they were static mobs in a DEMO just to highlight the character movements and the destructability. Do you people really think all the mobs will just stand there and die in the release game?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
You know what, let SOE make EQN how they think we want to play it (minecraft, LoL, FPS). And we will just wait and make jokes like EQNdenburg when it goes down in flames.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Originally posted by Konfess You know what, let SOE make EQN how they think we want to play it (minecraft, LoL, FPS). And we will just wait and make jokes like EQNdenburg when it goes down in flames.
SOE has seemingly invited the player base to get involved in the development of the game, and they want feedback. What they don't want is a bunch of freaks screaming about ludicrous assumptions they have made up in their own heads.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
This is to soon to call fail. We only know a very small % of the class system. We know almost nothing. I was upset how little they told us. They didnt even say there was no trinity just that it was not required in their system. ESO has something just like that. You can tank/heal but the NPC catch on and you need to use other tactic as well. Maybe no tank skill but maybe with a spec or items you can have your attacks gain aggro. We really know next to nothing.
Don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but I see alot of people complaining about that fact it has 8 skill buttons, for the uninformed original EQ only had 8 skill buttons to (for casters) and if my memory serves me correctly the same for combat skills (although you could click the arrow to to get more)
It meant that you had to make hard choices as to what to have available to you, I know it meant you had to have SKILL to play and not just smash buttons...
Yes, but say for a caster, 4 are now weapon skills, not spells/abilities, and you cannot count attack, as it was not a gem, but a on/off, kick wasn't on there etc....
So if you are a caster now, you get 4 weapon skills, if I wanted to be a melee, I would play a melee class or a hybrid class...So we have to see what they do here....Also, from the sounds of it, you cannot spam abilities, so of your 4 abilities, it is probably only viable to have 2 at the most be offensive abilities....So as a cast I would have 2 offensive spells to do damage, that seems boring to me....Now this is not counting my weapon skills, and assuming that they are going to make you actually fight close quarters while you wait for your mana/stamina on your 4 main abilities to come back.
I am sorry, but having 1-2 offensive spells, verse say 5-6 spells or more in EQ1 is very different, and to just compare the number does not work. I even stacked 7 offensive on some raids and such as a necromancer, as you always had feign death up and it is utility....Yeah you had to keep track of your dots wearing off, to recast, threat management with FD, and such, but I had way more than 1-2 offensive spells....This is my worry, as I cannot see me having fun if I have 2 spells to cast that do damage...So unless they figure something out, which who knows maybe they will, but they sure didn't reveal it, so if they don't want us speculating or complaining, then they should of revealed how they will really solve these problems that they know exist.
They have a lot of problems, and to say they will have a successful answer for each, is not realistic imo, I am not a SoE hater, and EQ is a top 2 mmo for me, but say they have 5 major problems, if they solve 3, and they work great, that is huge imo....The other 2 having marginal answers will leave work for later or the next game maker.
There are a lot of blanks to be filled in in terms of combat for sure and they've already commented on this. Georgeson tweeted that they're planning on putting together a primer on how combat will work in the upcoming future. They also said in the Q&A that most of what was presented at SOE live was what they felt was different and that they barely touched on the items that are very similar to what we typically get in an mmo.
As far as the weapon abilities for casters, I'm keeping an open mind about how they might be utilized. For instance, wands and staffs may end up just channeling other class abilities for instance an aoe heal, maybe thumping your staff on the ground will be a stun or cause a fissure in the ground. Who knows. I highly doubt they'll force a wizard to melee though.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle This is to soon to call fail. We only know a very small % of the class system. We know almost nothing. I was upset how little they told us. They didnt even say there was no trinity just that it was not required in their system. ESO has something just like that. You can tank/heal but the NPC catch on and you need to use other tactic as well. Maybe no tank skill but maybe with a spec or items you can have your attacks gain aggro. We really know next to nothing.
That I don't have a problem with.. In fact I welcome a smarter AI that fights back with logic, but dammit, if the mobs peels off to go after a vulnerable player, I want to be able to have the skills to intervene such as CC or a life saving heal.. That was the beauty of playing a holy pally was the use of my spell "beacon of light".. I was able to heal tank and others at the same time.. LORD knows there was many of times people other then tanks were getting smashed by Adds and AOEs.. What does EQN have in place to deal with such things, other then said player FENDING for himself?
Your class made up part of your identity. Even in WoW, being a shadow priest or a feral druid helped you stand out out a bit. I don't really want to play a game where everyone is pretty much an rogue or a mage and no group co-ordination is needed. That would be a bore. Despite all the great ideas the game has, it could turn out to be incredibly dull if it just turns out to be GW2 all over again.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle This is to soon to call fail. We only know a very small % of the class system. We know almost nothing. I was upset how little they told us. They didnt even say there was no trinity just that it was not required in their system. ESO has something just like that. You can tank/heal but the NPC catch on and you need to use other tactic as well. Maybe no tank skill but maybe with a spec or items you can have your attacks gain aggro. We really know next to nothing.
That I don't have a problem with.. In fact I welcome a smarter AI that fights back with logic, but dammit, if the mobs peels off to go after a vulnerable player, I want to be able to have the skills to intervene such as CC or a life saving heal.. That was the beauty of playing a holy pally was the use of my spell "beacon of light".. I was able to heal tank and others at the same time.. LORD knows there was many of times people other then tanks were getting smashed by Adds and AOEs.. What does EQN have in place to deal with such things, other then said player FENDING for himself?
I cant see 40+ classes of DPS. There has to be classes like Enchanters and bard that had CC and other support. This is where tanking is not the only option and players will all need to get involved. Thats my guess but I will wait to see if this is just a GW2 rehash but I doubt it is.
Originally posted by Kiyoris Hm I think it also explains why it is PS4 now. You can't implement a good aggro and healing system on a PS4, so they picked the next best thing, make everyone DPS, limit the abilities and max 8 ability slots so you can use a controller. It is coming full circle now. Hmmmm.
Than how has Final Fantasy 11 worked on PS2 and 360 for the last 11 years and how is Final Fantasy XIV working on PS3 and PS4?
Originally posted by Nanfoodle This is to soon to call fail. We only know a very small % of the class system. We know almost nothing. I was upset how little they told us. They didnt even say there was no trinity just that it was not required in their system. ESO has something just like that. You can tank/heal but the NPC catch on and you need to use other tactic as well. Maybe no tank skill but maybe with a spec or items you can have your attacks gain aggro. We really know next to nothing.
That I don't have a problem with.. In fact I welcome a smarter AI that fights back with logic, but dammit, if the mobs peels off to go after a vulnerable player, I want to be able to have the skills to intervene such as CC or a life saving heal.. That was the beauty of playing a holy pally was the use of my spell "beacon of light".. I was able to heal tank and others at the same time.. LORD knows there was many of times people other then tanks were getting smashed by Adds and AOEs.. What does EQN have in place to deal with such things, other then said player FENDING for himself?
I cant see 40+ classes of DPS. There has to be classes like Enchanters and bard that had CC and other support. This is where tanking is not the only option and players will all need to get involved. Thats my guess but I will wait to see if this is just a GW2 rehash but I doubt it is.
We'll have to wait and see.. because if you can't heal more then 10% of someones health every 8 seconds.. If you can't CC a mob longer then 10 seconds, then it's just a waste of hotbar space.. It's like putting a bandaid on an arm that was cut off..
Where exactly does he says that? I watched this video of yours, couple of times and cant hear it. Maybe he part "everyone is involved in combat" which is more the matter of discussion, rather than concluding things straight ahead.
Or maybe im deaf afterall, i dont know xD
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2 Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
That makes no sense lol. I'm pretty sure that the old tank'n'spank holy trinity system is easier on resources then a twitchbased combat system. It think it has nothing to do with consoles, but more so with latency.
Good trinity systems have aggro, AE aggro, stun, assist function.
That's already 4 functions. That's 50% of the 8 buttons in EQNext.
Yes trinity requires more buttons. DPS is 1 button.
GW2 has has 10 buttons or something I heard. EQ has about 50 buttons.
What does this have to do with anything though? Didn't the original FF MMO have trinity mechanics? I also remember EQOA having them as well. You only need one button to heal or taunt.
Never played FF11 b ut FFXIV combat is terrible, and it's because of their severely limited skills.
Final Fantasy XIVs combat system is as traditional and old school as it gets. And you can slot up to 32 skills on the gamepad.
Comments
Actually I played the video - he never said that.
Way to go and misquote and mislead every single person who clickedo n this thread.
I don't play themepark games, and I don't feel that way.
I feel like the combat will be bad because I understand how AI works, being a computer programmer. I also understand what made games good in the past, and its irrelevant to dungeons or raids, it was the mechanics that promoted player interdependence. Both the ability to switch classes on the fly, multi-class AND the removal of necessary roles in combat just does not make for intelligent combat. They already effectively removed the need for any player interdependence via class specific abilities by allowing players to switch and combine abilities, but going further and dumbing down combat (I don't care how much "emergent AI" there is) is just taking it too far. A combat system that allows players to succeed without any necessary roles will ALWAYS result in playing cat and mouse, kiting and button mashing dps. The more I think about it the more it becomes obvious that the whole system was designed to be viable on a handheld controller (Playstation 4 anyone?). Come on, a maximum of 4 class abilities? Get real.
My point is zerg fighting has been part of the mmo genre far longer than action combat. More importantly zerg fighting was the only way to kill bigger world bosses and huge mobs that littered the sandbox world. This is because there were no hard coded trinity mechanics in games like UO, AC or SWG. Sure you could spec to take a few more hits, but there was no tanking a world boss in those games.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
You say intelligent combat and I say scripted combat. Never has there been a mmo to this date that had mobs smart enough to have players actually thinking. As a matter of fact, with so many players drunk off themepark mechanics making add-ons to "assist" with raids and such, thinking is the last thing these players are trying to accomplish.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
This is the kind of comments I saw on the SWTOR forums during beta. And we know how that turned out. I say, if the MMO community wanted Action combat then the community would be playing Tera or PlanetSide (1 or 2).
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
On these forums? Pfft.
A tech demo of a human female wizard and a male Kerran warrior had people crying about Disney graphics and making every unfounded doom and gloom prediction possible. Why would a few panels from SOE Live be any different?
It's too much to ask people to wait for real gameplay, more in depth info and real, hands-on experience before deciding that EQN is a failure for this, that or the other reason.
Every single MMOrpg i played has boring combat, every single one and no exception.
Combat:
Combat is never the main reason i play a game - combat is a tool to me that i at times have to use to accomplish a task i want get done.
If combat iooks nice its still a tool that simply looks nice and if it looks ugly its a tool that looks ugly but i am quite happy as long the tool does its job.
So if the task i have to combat for does not motivate me bcs i feel its mundane and has no impact whatsoever it does not matter if it is arcade or hotbar combat and if i am motivated it does not matter either.
The question is if the game offers me Motivation to combat, or craft, or explore or whatever i can do.
Look:
The look and feel of the World matters somewhat, as long i find places i do not hate i am ok.
Very Urgent is the look and feel of my Avatar bcs it is my virtual "Alter Ego"!
I do not accept the slightest weakness regarding to my Avatars look and feel.
As Male i have the highest expectations for Male Avatars, and lower expectations the farther i move away from humanoid Avatars.
I do not feel any Motivation to play a Disney-Avatar of any Kind!
I can laugh over the movies for the 1,5 or 2 hours i watch them but i dont feel the slightest interest to be like one of them, not even virtual!
The last good male Avatar i had was in "Pirates of the Burning Sea".
They had a more reasonable shape while being spot on for the games theme.
Hype:
What we have seen is Alpha footage, the Parcour thing is nice, i liked double jumping in Perfect World but i am underimpressed that they said this will happen automatically.
I dont understand where the fun lies in automated gameplay...
Imho they have developed Lore, a World Engine Demo and some good to outstanding goals what they want to do but i doubt that they have even the slightest clue yet, how they will really get there.
I dont expect them having more than some placeholder systems in their Alpha Demo yet.
So i hyped this game 8 purely for the Lore + Goals they have but the demo is actually a 4 or 5 and the Avatar look is 3:
Shape, Size, Equipment, Colouring, Textures, everything is absurd and/or underwhelming!
And its SOE and i dont give a damn about their promises, they need to deliver!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Sorry, but you're wrong on this. I've been playing Dungeons & Dragons since 1978. The Fighter has no ability to 'taunt' or hold 'aggro' within the rules (as I look at my 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Players Handbook). The class has the ability to wear heavy armor, use a shield, and has good hit points, but if that equates to 'tank' then that exists in EQN, because we know we have plate wearing characters. It wasn't until 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons that we saw anything at all like this (and it was largely panned as smacking of silly MMORPG mechanics by long-time players).
Furthermore, the cleric (or healer class of your trinity) was expected to get in there and swing their mace (they could only cast but a handful of spells each day as D&D utilizes what is commonly referred to as a 'Vancian' spell system (see the works of Jack Vance). Does that make them a DPS class? That seems closer to what EQN seems to be promoting. You can heal, but you can also do damage.
The truth is, EQN is far closer to D&D than any of the past MMORGs have been. DMs (Dungeon Masters) look at the battle as its happening and try to make the best decisions for the monsters. If I see some wizard or cleric in the back ranks trying to ruin my day with their silly spells, you can damn well be sure I'm going to try and put an end to it.
Yes, but say for a caster, 4 are now weapon skills, not spells/abilities, and you cannot count attack, as it was not a gem, but a on/off, kick wasn't on there etc....
So if you are a caster now, you get 4 weapon skills, if I wanted to be a melee, I would play a melee class or a hybrid class...So we have to see what they do here....Also, from the sounds of it, you cannot spam abilities, so of your 4 abilities, it is probably only viable to have 2 at the most be offensive abilities....So as a cast I would have 2 offensive spells to do damage, that seems boring to me....Now this is not counting my weapon skills, and assuming that they are going to make you actually fight close quarters while you wait for your mana/stamina on your 4 main abilities to come back.
I am sorry, but having 1-2 offensive spells, verse say 5-6 spells or more in EQ1 is very different, and to just compare the number does not work. I even stacked 7 offensive on some raids and such as a necromancer, as you always had feign death up and it is utility....Yeah you had to keep track of your dots wearing off, to recast, threat management with FD, and such, but I had way more than 1-2 offensive spells....This is my worry, as I cannot see me having fun if I have 2 spells to cast that do damage...So unless they figure something out, which who knows maybe they will, but they sure didn't reveal it, so if they don't want us speculating or complaining, then they should of revealed how they will really solve these problems that they know exist.
They have a lot of problems, and to say they will have a successful answer for each, is not realistic imo, I am not a SoE hater, and EQ is a top 2 mmo for me, but say they have 5 major problems, if they solve 3, and they work great, that is huge imo....The other 2 having marginal answers will leave work for later or the next game maker.
For the OP:
EQ Next is a third-person shooter which will go through a 1-2 year PC test phase guised as a release. Once debugged, it will release as a Playstation exclusive in order to draw sales to said Playstation consoles.
Also, everyone complaining about people voicing concerns about their systems, NOW is the time to do so, no matter what they are saying....When do you propose people voice concerns and changes? The week of launch? When is it easier to change something? Right now, the further you go down the road, the less likely anything is going to be changed.
They said they read everything in the panel, so even if something small from someone that is 100% negative about EQN sparks something that may make a developer say, "That could work".
Yeah some of the stuff is never going to happen, BUT you may get a stand back utility class back, if people voice concerns enough, yeah they said you could do it, but they basically bit their toungue when they were going to pretty much say, yeah you could do it, but you would gimp your group, if you didn't go in and melee, because you are not in the design.
I also see huge problems with 4 actions and 40 classes, I see a lot of this being just visual/flash, as to balance things, I think it is going to be very hard for a combo to not be a fotm, unless most of the abilities about do the same thing, but have different graphics to make your abilities have a certain visual appearance...While cool, it is rather bland....So this is one huge area we have to see what they will do. I also have to see the 4 weapon skills, and how they handle this with what is traditionally a pure caster....Ahh...It did just pop into my head, in one article they said their would be guns, which they didn't get into at the convention I do not think, so I guess a stand back caster could have a gun....Kind of odd, but better than being melee as a caster I guess....I just remembered that part of the initial reveal article from the E3 reveal to MMORPG.
I am all for waiting to see, but equally, lets discuss it, critique it now, early and often, if you wait till open beta, not much will change.
This is exactly why some developers choose to keep their games secret, and it's exactly why betas are now paid-previews. Thousands of morons running around filling in the blanks with their own dumb ideas before they have all of the information.
If the game was even six months away from release, I might be inclined to chime in on some of this stuff, but it's more likely to be 1 to 1.5 years away from release, and is clearly in alpha or even pre-alpha form.
In the live stream, and within the first three minutes of the Class Panel video, the point is made by SOE that nothing is set in stone yet, especially with the classes. Not only that, SOE has set up the Round Table website to specifically ask players opinions about bits of the game that are still not set in stone.
If you have concerns, I suggest you put them together without your own made up assumptions thrown in. Make the point and wait for an answer. I've seen so many poorly thought out assumptions made on this site in the past week, that it almost makes me want to delete my account and move on. The stupid burns that bad.
For example, people who note that the mobs didn't move in the combat demo have no idea that we've already been told they were static mobs in a DEMO just to highlight the character movements and the destructability. Do you people really think all the mobs will just stand there and die in the release game?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
SOE has seemingly invited the player base to get involved in the development of the game, and they want feedback. What they don't want is a bunch of freaks screaming about ludicrous assumptions they have made up in their own heads.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
There are a lot of blanks to be filled in in terms of combat for sure and they've already commented on this. Georgeson tweeted that they're planning on putting together a primer on how combat will work in the upcoming future. They also said in the Q&A that most of what was presented at SOE live was what they felt was different and that they barely touched on the items that are very similar to what we typically get in an mmo.
As far as the weapon abilities for casters, I'm keeping an open mind about how they might be utilized. For instance, wands and staffs may end up just channeling other class abilities for instance an aoe heal, maybe thumping your staff on the ground will be a stun or cause a fissure in the ground. Who knows. I highly doubt they'll force a wizard to melee though.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
That I don't have a problem with.. In fact I welcome a smarter AI that fights back with logic, but dammit, if the mobs peels off to go after a vulnerable player, I want to be able to have the skills to intervene such as CC or a life saving heal.. That was the beauty of playing a holy pally was the use of my spell "beacon of light".. I was able to heal tank and others at the same time.. LORD knows there was many of times people other then tanks were getting smashed by Adds and AOEs.. What does EQN have in place to deal with such things, other then said player FENDING for himself?
I cant see 40+ classes of DPS. There has to be classes like Enchanters and bard that had CC and other support. This is where tanking is not the only option and players will all need to get involved. Thats my guess but I will wait to see if this is just a GW2 rehash but I doubt it is.
Than how has Final Fantasy 11 worked on PS2 and 360 for the last 11 years and how is Final Fantasy XIV working on PS3 and PS4?
We'll have to wait and see.. because if you can't heal more then 10% of someones health every 8 seconds.. If you can't CC a mob longer then 10 seconds, then it's just a waste of hotbar space.. It's like putting a bandaid on an arm that was cut off..
Where exactly does he says that? I watched this video of yours, couple of times and cant hear it. Maybe he part "everyone is involved in combat" which is more the matter of discussion, rather than concluding things straight ahead.
Or maybe im deaf afterall, i dont know xD
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
Final Fantasy XIVs combat system is as traditional and old school as it gets. And you can slot up to 32 skills on the gamepad.
I see such little objective thinking nowadays about games.
The holy trinity really indoctrinated people hard.