Today I will pose this question. Is the new trend of MMOs, action oriented, fewer skills, and less hotbars? If you look at the old juggernauts of the MMO world, EQ 1, EQ 2, and Vanilla WoW, you literally were able to use all of your skills (usually 30+) at any given point. You were not limited to 8, 10, or 12. Fast forward 10 - 12 years later and you see games like GW2 with this action styled dodging and rolling around, while only being able to use a set amount of your skills during a single combat period.
Is this the way MMOs are leaning? What I think to be a more casualized, less intensive, easier learning style? Are MMO companies attempting to make combat more fun? Or are they instead trying to make it easier for the younger (or older) gamer?
You can see what he is spamming and clicking...while standing in place as an "action" class. This is what the trinity, tab targeting, and rows and rows of abilities gives for a challenge?
Clearly you failed to understand how much skill it took to avoid those other 36 skills of his 40 that he never had to use.
Originally posted by evilastro Uh neverwinter had exactly the same amount of skills - 8. That's 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailys and the tab skill. You have no idea how situational or customisable EQNs skills are yet. The whole premise of this thread is that 8 is bad and you need 6 hotbars of skills. My point is that most of those skills are just clutter. You end up with one or two macros and a few situational skills. I use 2 macros (single target and ae) and 3 situational skills raiding on EQ2. That's less than EQN proposes to use.
Neverwinter felt like you were controlling a very simple puppet. I really hope they don't emulate NWO's combat. There is some evidence to the contrary however.
What I don't "get" is, Why is there so much resistance to having more options? I have nothing against minimalism, especially if it contributes to efficiency. If you have figured out how to run with a single hot bar, that's awesome. Many players have been doing that in WoW and other games for years. But even still, why would you not want the option to add another? I don't get that. There is no logical reason why anyone should be against the idea that if you like 1 bar, run 1 bar, if you like 2 bars, run with 2 bars so long as the game is designed to be functional either way. In this instance, no one comes away feeling like they are getting screwed. But when players are told they are getting 1 bar and that's it. You now have 2 groups. Those that like and those that don't. But those that don't have no options. In the other scenario, everyone has the option to play how they want and some of you guys don't see that. It really is a bad decision to do it this way.
Not a fan of the new action combat. Even though I say action combat its less actiony than old style 40+ button mmo combat.
Its like saying Mario smash Bros has more action than Soul Calibur. Because you have less combos and buttons....
I liked GW2, I liked how they did PvE, I saw promise in there WvW. But I dont play the game cause the combat sucks. Infact I liked SWTOR pvp and pve combat more than GW2. Even though GW2 had more interesting pve.
It would be one thing if your limited abilities didnt have cooldown timers like the 40+ ability games. I hated how I just spamed 2 buttons. TSW would have been alot more fun if instead of having 1 or 2 combos to use to do big damage over and over and over and over the same Fn thing level after level but wait we add dodge in so its omg so fun now. Pfft ya right.
If you think the current trend is good action combat then I hate to say this cause I feel dirty for it. Buy a console and play some of those action games. Those are fun not GW2 or TSW or I guess EQN combat now.
If they were making Soul Calibur or Tekken like combat for the serious hardcore MMO's and Arkahm Assylum or Assasins Creed for the f2p or SWTOR type games then that would be something. But the combat there making now feels like something a WII U Dev made up.
What I don't "get" is, Why is there so much resistance to having more options? I have nothing against minimalism, especially if it contributes to efficiency. If you have figured out how to run with a single hot bar, that's awesome. Many players have been doing that in WoW and other games for years. But even still, why would you not want the option to add another? I don't get that. There is no logical reason why anyone should be against the idea that if you like 1 bar, run 1 bar, if you like 2 bars, run with 2 bars so long as the game is designed to be functional either way. In this instance, no one comes away feeling like they are getting screwed. But when players are told they are getting 1 bar and that's it. You now have 2 groups. Those that like and those that don't. But those that don't have no options. In the other scenario, everyone has the option to play how they want and some of you guys don't see that. It really is a bad decision to do it this way.
Why don't people have tanking skills, dps skills and healing skills at the same time in a game like WoW or EQ?
Isn't that more options?
Different games, different rules and challenges,
A game like Guild Wars 1/2 and TSW is designed in such a way that you cannot be strong against everything due and if you try to do that, not only you can't you will gimp yourself.
That is done by limiting the number of skills available at any time.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by evilastro If you can dumb down those 30 abilities into one damage / threat / heal priority supermacro, what's the point? Have yet to play a hotbar game that I haven't been able to supermacro. I'd rather have 8 meaningful and strategic skills like in EQN or GW1, than 30+ skills that get shoved into one button like on EQ, EQ2, WoW, Rift etc.
Originally posted by evilastro If you can dumb down those 30 abilities into one damage / threat / heal priority supermacro, what's the point? Have yet to play a hotbar game that I haven't been able to supermacro. I'd rather have 8 meaningful and strategic skills like in EQN or GW1, than 30+ skills that get shoved into one button like on EQ, EQ2, WoW, Rift etc.
+1
People like to think they have it all - the more the merrier. As in Rift, many of the skills are just not worth anything, like detecting Air Mobs, etc. Why have those?
I am like the above people, I would rather have one good skill than 10 bad to mediocre ones.
It also means you have to make a choice on what skills to carry and that is on you, your decision. You have to understand them all and make a rational decision. I wonder if people realize that it makes the game more challenging and also means you need to understand the game more.
Honestly, having more action bars don't make more skilled combat. If anything it can make things more clunky.
That being said, how many they do include does make me a bit unsure. At the same time, I can see things being expanded on in interesting ways. Perhaps rather then say 4 attack skills, perhaps abilities combo, so you use the 1 key and suddenly 4 more abilities pop up that you can use based off the button you press? You press another key and then different finisher pops up? It seems like an interesting way to make combat feel more dynamic while still having less general buttons. Aion actually did it to some extent and it really made the combat in Aion feel more action packed. That being said you could claim GW2 did that as well, though it was limited to one chain and it was no where remotely as satisfying.
We don't need 4 action and 40 different skills to make the games combat in depth, its often over kill and makes things clunky. At the same time, I don't think a basic system would be very good either if they don't expand much on its depth. Gw2 is a great example of being far to bare bones with its skills that it left the combat feeling very repetitive as it involved traditionally running around, dodging and pressing maybe 1 or 2 skills and otherwise auto attacking, rarely tossing in other abilities to aid. Still, using a current released game as a 'judgement' about it isn't exactly a very good way to judge what it might be anyways. Its all about waiting to see just how they handle it.
That is the mistake of allowing macroing not the fault of having the choice of skills. In City of X for instance you can have a single target buff and an area buff, a snare or slow ,an area damage, dot ,single target damage ,fire and forget skill like a gadget on the ground , pets skills,PBAOE heal or target heal or placing a heal on the ground. Then the attacks that get you heals or endurance or placing a debuff to follow with another attack that takes advantage of that debuff. Area of effect knock downs or blind or stun.To name a few.
Honestly it just limits you to have just 8. When you have more skills how you use them shows both your skill in understanding various skills and when to use them .It takes no skill to learn the best set to load after reading websites and knowing what to take for each type of fight. Having choices and making decisions based on seeing everything in front of you is what makes smart players.It also takes memory to know what each skill does on your bar. If you have 8 what challenge is there to choose correctly .When you have 20 and have to choose then yes that is skill.The other way is just copy and honestly you can easily carry the correct skills if it is already obvious . Not much strat or skill there.
My son who played GW 2 in dungeons said they are told what to load in dungeons by others in the group so its easy to decide beforehand and it does not take any skill sorry.
Anyway no point wasting my breath with people who argue 8 skills show how well you play. They will not understand the joy of picking the right skill from a smorgasbord of skills at the right time and triumphing knowing your choice turned the tide.
Today I will pose this question. Is the new trend of MMOs, action oriented, fewer skills, and less hotbars? If you look at the old juggernauts of the MMO world, EQ 1, EQ 2, and Vanilla WoW, you literally were able to use all of your skills (usually 30+) at any given point. You were not limited to 8, 10, or 12. Fast forward 10 - 12 years later and you see games like GW2 with this action styled dodging and rolling around, while only being able to use a set amount of your skills during a single combat period.
Is this the way MMOs are leaning? What I think to be a more casualized, less intensive, easier learning style? Are MMO companies attempting to make combat more fun? Or are they instead trying to make it easier for the younger (or older) gamer?
I look forward to hearing back from all of you,
Talint
Less button mean easier for head to smash keyboard and kill bad guy
That is the mistake of allowing macroing not the fault of having the choice of skills. In City of X for instance you can have a single target buff and an area buff, a snare or slow ,an area damage, dot ,single target damage ,fire and forget skill like a gadget on the ground , pets skills,PBAOE heal or target heal or placing a heal on the ground. Then the attacks that get you heals or endurance or placing a debuff to follow with another attack that takes advantage of that debuff. Area of effect knock downs or blind or stun.To name a few.
Honestly it just limits you to have just 8. When you have more skills how you use them shows both your skill in understanding various skills and when to use them .It takes no skill to learn the best set to load after reading websites and knowing what to take for each type of fight. Having choices and making decisions based on seeing everything in front of you is what makes smart players.It also takes memory to know what each skill does on your bar. If you have 8 what challenge is there to choose correctly .When you have 20 and have to choose then yes that is skill.The other way is just copy and honestly you can easily carry the correct skills if it is already obvious . Not much strat or skill there.
My son who played GW 2 in dungeons said they are told what to load in dungeons by others in the group so its easy to decide beforehand and it does not take any skill sorry.
Anyway no point wasting my breath with people who argue 8 skills show how well you play. They will not understand the joy of picking the right skill from a smorgasbord of skills at the right time and triumphing knowing your choice turned the tide.
It is like building blocks then?
You have a dozen forms and you need to choose the one that fits while all the others don't fit.
Opposed to having a bag with tools and you can only pick a few to solve whatever you going to face.
But it is pointless wasting my breath arguing with people that will never understand the joy of having the right tool for the right moment.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
What I don't "get" is, Why is there so much resistance to having more options? I have nothing against minimalism, especially if it contributes to efficiency. If you have figured out how to run with a single hot bar, that's awesome. Many players have been doing that in WoW and other games for years. But even still, why would you not want the option to add another? I don't get that. There is no logical reason why anyone should be against the idea that if you like 1 bar, run 1 bar, if you like 2 bars, run with 2 bars so long as the game is designed to be functional either way. In this instance, no one comes away feeling like they are getting screwed. But when players are told they are getting 1 bar and that's it. You now have 2 groups. Those that like and those that don't. But those that don't have no options. In the other scenario, everyone has the option to play how they want and some of you guys don't see that. It really is a bad decision to do it this way.
Why don't people have tanking skills, dps skills and healing skills at the same time in a game like WoW or EQ?
Isn't that more options?
Different games, different rules and challenges,
A game like Guild Wars 1/2 and TSW is designed in such a way that you cannot be strong against everything due and if you try to do that, not only you can't you will gimp yourself.
That is done by limiting the number of skills available at any time.
I won't disagree with you here, but it's not what I was referring to.
I was talking about options within the UI itself and the ability to tweak and personalize it to a custom fit. Or in the case with the latest MMOs....the lack there of.
What I don't "get" is, Why is there so much resistance to having more options? I have nothing against minimalism, especially if it contributes to efficiency. If you have figured out how to run with a single hot bar, that's awesome. Many players have been doing that in WoW and other games for years. But even still, why would you not want the option to add another? I don't get that. There is no logical reason why anyone should be against the idea that if you like 1 bar, run 1 bar, if you like 2 bars, run with 2 bars so long as the game is designed to be functional either way. In this instance, no one comes away feeling like they are getting screwed. But when players are told they are getting 1 bar and that's it. You now have 2 groups. Those that like and those that don't. But those that don't have no options. In the other scenario, everyone has the option to play how they want and some of you guys don't see that. It really is a bad decision to do it this way.
Why don't people have tanking skills, dps skills and healing skills at the same time in a game like WoW or EQ?
Isn't that more options?
Different games, different rules and challenges,
A game like Guild Wars 1/2 and TSW is designed in such a way that you cannot be strong against everything due and if you try to do that, not only you can't you will gimp yourself.
That is done by limiting the number of skills available at any time.
I won't disagree with you here, but it's not what I was referring to.
I was talking about options within the UI itself and the ability to tweak and personalize it to a custom fit. Or in the case with the latest MMOs....the lack there of.
The latest MMORPGs are going for minimalistic UI.
I think no one can deny that people spent a lot of their game time looking at their UI elements, to track cooldowns, other player health, buffs and debuffs and a myriad of other information.
Tweaking and personalize the UI is one thing while allowing players to expand right after the devs minimized the UI elements is another.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
It would be incredibly hard having having control over tons of skills to use on an action combat game.
Tough having the ability to switch between multiple action bars would solve it for everyone.
Bit like weapon swapping, no?
That and in he future im sure ANET is gonna make it somewhat like GW1 where youll be able to customize skills like take out thr 5th weapon skill or something, IMO thatd be cool especially if they balance it or something course that woul be hard in itself considering every patch in every game I know of has people complaining about balance and/or change lol.
Maybe this is what EQN is doing as well or will end upp doing giving options...maybe with even the weapons. Since utilities are changeable im sure weapon specific skills can be changed like that in the future possibly.
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Originally posted by evilastro I love how people think that more skills makes it more strategic and complex. If its so engaging, why are these games the most multi-boxed / botted? Oh that's right, because it isn't complex or engaging at all. You can download programs that can play EQ, EQ2 and WoW for you, that's how simple the multi-hotbar 30+ skill systems are.
And you can also download a bot for games with action combat. GW 2 had a HUGE problem with it, and they had to drop the major ban stick on a fairly big amount of their player base.
If I could have dug a big fat hole right beneath their path and let them run around in a pit for a few hours I would have...
Originally posted by evilastro If you can dumb down those 30 abilities into one damage / threat / heal priority supermacro, what's the point? Have yet to play a hotbar game that I haven't been able to supermacro. I'd rather have 8 meaningful and strategic skills like in EQN or GW1, than 30+ skills that get shoved into one button like on EQ, EQ2, WoW, Rift etc.
I like fewer skills. I very much dislike action combat.
Give me EQ1 style combat.. where you only had 8 spells memorized and tanks had very few abilities... that game was all about playing smarter with what you had. Taunting correctly. Positioning. Pulling.
Those are player skills that build on the character skills. I much, much prefer that over the EQ2/WoW game where you had 3-4 hotbars worth of skills.
At the same time.. Really dislike action combat in my MMORPGs. I love it in LoL, Skyrim, etc. But not in my EQ-style games.
Each new streamlined UI has produced the same result in my gaming group. Exodus.
I can only hope EQN breaks that streak, but something tells me I am being foolish for having that hope.
I hear you on that. And I was looking foreward to EQNext.
Also wanted to add something about "Action combat" in games. Non of the mmos that have come out with it I would even consider as "Action".
Most good action games have the standard:
Normal attack: usualy a combo system with 3 or 4 hits.
Heavy Attack: Adds more basic combo attacks by using normal and heavy together to pull off more moves.
Special move: Usualy a class special but alot of games try to add complexity by having a special move menu pop up and the user selects from a few special moves with small timers on them to stop spamming.
Dodge mechanic: Unlike GW2 and TSW dodge, other than an animation pause your allowed to actualy dodge attacks instead of having a dodge ability on a semi long cooldown.
Block: Not only can you dodge attacks but block non special attacks.
Grapple/push attack: Some not all. Give a grapple or a push to counter blocking.
Thats how most good complex rpg "Action combat" is done. What devs have been doing is a half assed mmo combat with cheap gimmicks and small abilitiy pool to make it easier for them to develop.
Cause im sorry spaming one button or in TSW two buttons the majority of a fight then hitting button 3 or 4 to kill something isnt fun. Atleast with 40+ abilities I have 3 or 4 combos to pull off and multiple ways to finish a mob. Oh and the dodging gimmick, other than dodging some painted AOE attack once every 2 minutes isnt skill. Hell in GW2 and TSW you just stand there like the old mmo combat system spaming your rotation but now its just 2 to 3 buttons you spam. PvP combat is a joke just the same ole spam spam spam as everyone jumps around like an idiot. Unlike real action combat where you can dodge or block every single attack if you have the skill.
Each new streamlined UI has produced the same result in my gaming group. Exodus.
I can only hope EQN breaks that streak, but something tells me I am being foolish for having that hope.
I hear you on that. And I was looking foreward to EQNext.
Also wanted to add something about "Action combat" in games. Non of the mmos that have come out with it I would even consider as "Action".
Most good action games have the standard:
Normal attack: usualy a combo system with 3 or 4 hits.
Heavy Attack: Adds more basic combo attacks by using normal and heavy together to pull off more moves.
Special move: Usualy a class special but alot of games try to add complexity by having a special move menu pop up and the user selects from a few special moves with small timers on them to stop spamming.
Dodge mechanic: Unlike GW2 and TSW dodge, other than an animation pause your allowed to actualy dodge attacks instead of having a dodge ability on a semi long cooldown.
Block: Not only can you dodge attacks but block non special attacks.
Grapple/push attack: Some not all. Give a grapple or a push to counter blocking.
Thats how most good complex rpg "Action combat" is done. What devs have been doing is a half assed mmo combat with cheap gimmicks and small abilitiy pool to make it easier for them to develop.
Cause im sorry spaming one button or in TSW two buttons the majority of a fight then hitting button 3 or 4 to kill something isnt fun. Atleast with 40+ abilities I have 3 or 4 combos to pull off and multiple ways to finish a mob. Oh and the dodging gimmick, other than dodging some painted AOE attack once every 2 minutes isnt skill. Hell in GW2 and TSW you just stand there like the old mmo combat system spaming your rotation but now its just 2 to 3 buttons you spam. PvP combat is a joke just the same ole spam spam spam as everyone jumps around like an idiot. Unlike real action combat where you can dodge or block every single attack if you have the skill.
I agree. I think that there hasn't been a good example of an action combat that fuses with MMORPG gameplay really well. Whatever they come up with they need to test the hell out of it, and by that I mean that they need to monitor levels of fatigue and boredom that testers experience as they play over a duration. The candle that burns twice as bright lasts half as long and all that.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, this is what I interpreted watching the short videos.
All of this means diddly if there isn't on the fly class changes.
The thing people are missing here about the limited action bar is:
Each weapon has skills tied to it and are interchangable on the fly.
It's a multi class system to the core and on the fly.
In GW2 you can select a different weapon and change actions , but you are still the same class.
In EQN:
Play one class= 8 skills and four of them change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock two classes= 16 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock 10 classes= 80 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
Unlock 40 classes= 320 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
No you won't have a 320 skill hotbar. But you can cycle through hotbar builds everytime you change a weapon or class on the fly. Each hotbar build is capped at 8. Each class when using the same weapon as another class wields it and plays differently/
It would be incredibly hard having having control over tons of skills to use on an action combat game.
Tough having the ability to switch between multiple action bars would solve it for everyone.
Bit like weapon swapping, no?
Not exactly. (I don't like that system)
My idea is that you have action bar 1 and action bar 2 and you can swap between the 2. In other words you would have 16 skills you can place for example and that's more variety for those who want it. (8 x 2).
I like to have accsess to many skills, I played as a healer in several games and it was very nice to have accsess to lower level spells to save mana when nobody need a huge healing,this was wery important in many games if your group was to survive 15-20 minutes boss fight.
Comments
Clearly you failed to understand how much skill it took to avoid those other 36 skills of his 40 that he never had to use.
Neverwinter felt like you were controlling a very simple puppet. I really hope they don't emulate NWO's combat. There is some evidence to the contrary however.
Source:(http://www.eqnexus.com/2013/08/soe-live-day-3-everquest-next-landmark-updates/
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
What I don't "get" is, Why is there so much resistance to having more options? I have nothing against minimalism, especially if it contributes to efficiency. If you have figured out how to run with a single hot bar, that's awesome. Many players have been doing that in WoW and other games for years. But even still, why would you not want the option to add another? I don't get that. There is no logical reason why anyone should be against the idea that if you like 1 bar, run 1 bar, if you like 2 bars, run with 2 bars so long as the game is designed to be functional either way. In this instance, no one comes away feeling like they are getting screwed. But when players are told they are getting 1 bar and that's it. You now have 2 groups. Those that like and those that don't. But those that don't have no options. In the other scenario, everyone has the option to play how they want and some of you guys don't see that. It really is a bad decision to do it this way.
Not a fan of the new action combat. Even though I say action combat its less actiony than old style 40+ button mmo combat.
Its like saying Mario smash Bros has more action than Soul Calibur. Because you have less combos and buttons....
I liked GW2, I liked how they did PvE, I saw promise in there WvW. But I dont play the game cause the combat sucks. Infact I liked SWTOR pvp and pve combat more than GW2. Even though GW2 had more interesting pve.
It would be one thing if your limited abilities didnt have cooldown timers like the 40+ ability games. I hated how I just spamed 2 buttons. TSW would have been alot more fun if instead of having 1 or 2 combos to use to do big damage over and over and over and over the same Fn thing level after level but wait we add dodge in so its omg so fun now. Pfft ya right.
If you think the current trend is good action combat then I hate to say this cause I feel dirty for it. Buy a console and play some of those action games. Those are fun not GW2 or TSW or I guess EQN combat now.
If they were making Soul Calibur or Tekken like combat for the serious hardcore MMO's and Arkahm Assylum or Assasins Creed for the f2p or SWTOR type games then that would be something. But the combat there making now feels like something a WII U Dev made up.
Why don't people have tanking skills, dps skills and healing skills at the same time in a game like WoW or EQ?
Isn't that more options?
Different games, different rules and challenges,
A game like Guild Wars 1/2 and TSW is designed in such a way that you cannot be strong against everything due and if you try to do that, not only you can't you will gimp yourself.
That is done by limiting the number of skills available at any time.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
+1
People like to think they have it all - the more the merrier. As in Rift, many of the skills are just not worth anything, like detecting Air Mobs, etc. Why have those?
I am like the above people, I would rather have one good skill than 10 bad to mediocre ones.
It also means you have to make a choice on what skills to carry and that is on you, your decision. You have to understand them all and make a rational decision. I wonder if people realize that it makes the game more challenging and also means you need to understand the game more.
Honestly, having more action bars don't make more skilled combat. If anything it can make things more clunky.
That being said, how many they do include does make me a bit unsure. At the same time, I can see things being expanded on in interesting ways. Perhaps rather then say 4 attack skills, perhaps abilities combo, so you use the 1 key and suddenly 4 more abilities pop up that you can use based off the button you press? You press another key and then different finisher pops up? It seems like an interesting way to make combat feel more dynamic while still having less general buttons. Aion actually did it to some extent and it really made the combat in Aion feel more action packed. That being said you could claim GW2 did that as well, though it was limited to one chain and it was no where remotely as satisfying.
We don't need 4 action and 40 different skills to make the games combat in depth, its often over kill and makes things clunky. At the same time, I don't think a basic system would be very good either if they don't expand much on its depth. Gw2 is a great example of being far to bare bones with its skills that it left the combat feeling very repetitive as it involved traditionally running around, dodging and pressing maybe 1 or 2 skills and otherwise auto attacking, rarely tossing in other abilities to aid. Still, using a current released game as a 'judgement' about it isn't exactly a very good way to judge what it might be anyways. Its all about waiting to see just how they handle it.
That is the mistake of allowing macroing not the fault of having the choice of skills. In City of X for instance you can have a single target buff and an area buff, a snare or slow ,an area damage, dot ,single target damage ,fire and forget skill like a gadget on the ground , pets skills,PBAOE heal or target heal or placing a heal on the ground. Then the attacks that get you heals or endurance or placing a debuff to follow with another attack that takes advantage of that debuff. Area of effect knock downs or blind or stun.To name a few.
Honestly it just limits you to have just 8. When you have more skills how you use them shows both your skill in understanding various skills and when to use them .It takes no skill to learn the best set to load after reading websites and knowing what to take for each type of fight. Having choices and making decisions based on seeing everything in front of you is what makes smart players.It also takes memory to know what each skill does on your bar. If you have 8 what challenge is there to choose correctly .When you have 20 and have to choose then yes that is skill.The other way is just copy and honestly you can easily carry the correct skills if it is already obvious . Not much strat or skill there.
My son who played GW 2 in dungeons said they are told what to load in dungeons by others in the group so its easy to decide beforehand and it does not take any skill sorry.
Anyway no point wasting my breath with people who argue 8 skills show how well you play. They will not understand the joy of picking the right skill from a smorgasbord of skills at the right time and triumphing knowing your choice turned the tide.
Less button mean easier for head to smash keyboard and kill bad guy
It is like building blocks then?
You have a dozen forms and you need to choose the one that fits while all the others don't fit.
Opposed to having a bag with tools and you can only pick a few to solve whatever you going to face.
But it is pointless wasting my breath arguing with people that will never understand the joy of having the right tool for the right moment.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I won't disagree with you here, but it's not what I was referring to.
I was talking about options within the UI itself and the ability to tweak and personalize it to a custom fit. Or in the case with the latest MMOs....the lack there of.
It would be incredibly hard having having control over tons of skills to use on an action combat game.
Tough having the ability to switch between multiple action bars would solve it for everyone.
The latest MMORPGs are going for minimalistic UI.
I think no one can deny that people spent a lot of their game time looking at their UI elements, to track cooldowns, other player health, buffs and debuffs and a myriad of other information.
Tweaking and personalize the UI is one thing while allowing players to expand right after the devs minimized the UI elements is another.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Bit like weapon swapping, no?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
That and in he future im sure ANET is gonna make it somewhat like GW1 where youll be able to customize skills like take out thr 5th weapon skill or something, IMO thatd be cool especially if they balance it or something course that woul be hard in itself considering every patch in every game I know of has people complaining about balance and/or change lol.
Maybe this is what EQN is doing as well or will end upp doing giving options...maybe with even the weapons. Since utilities are changeable im sure weapon specific skills can be changed like that in the future possibly.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
If I could have dug a big fat hole right beneath their path and let them run around in a pit for a few hours I would have...
Lol, what a crock of shit!
Supermacro my ass.
Each new streamlined UI has produced the same result in my gaming group. Exodus.
I can only hope EQN breaks that streak, but something tells me I am being foolish for having that hope.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I like fewer skills. I very much dislike action combat.
Give me EQ1 style combat.. where you only had 8 spells memorized and tanks had very few abilities... that game was all about playing smarter with what you had. Taunting correctly. Positioning. Pulling.
Those are player skills that build on the character skills. I much, much prefer that over the EQ2/WoW game where you had 3-4 hotbars worth of skills.
At the same time.. Really dislike action combat in my MMORPGs. I love it in LoL, Skyrim, etc. But not in my EQ-style games.
I hear you on that. And I was looking foreward to EQNext.
Also wanted to add something about "Action combat" in games. Non of the mmos that have come out with it I would even consider as "Action".
Most good action games have the standard:
Normal attack: usualy a combo system with 3 or 4 hits.
Heavy Attack: Adds more basic combo attacks by using normal and heavy together to pull off more moves.
Special move: Usualy a class special but alot of games try to add complexity by having a special move menu pop up and the user selects from a few special moves with small timers on them to stop spamming.
Dodge mechanic: Unlike GW2 and TSW dodge, other than an animation pause your allowed to actualy dodge attacks instead of having a dodge ability on a semi long cooldown.
Block: Not only can you dodge attacks but block non special attacks.
Grapple/push attack: Some not all. Give a grapple or a push to counter blocking.
Thats how most good complex rpg "Action combat" is done. What devs have been doing is a half assed mmo combat with cheap gimmicks and small abilitiy pool to make it easier for them to develop.
Cause im sorry spaming one button or in TSW two buttons the majority of a fight then hitting button 3 or 4 to kill something isnt fun. Atleast with 40+ abilities I have 3 or 4 combos to pull off and multiple ways to finish a mob. Oh and the dodging gimmick, other than dodging some painted AOE attack once every 2 minutes isnt skill. Hell in GW2 and TSW you just stand there like the old mmo combat system spaming your rotation but now its just 2 to 3 buttons you spam. PvP combat is a joke just the same ole spam spam spam as everyone jumps around like an idiot. Unlike real action combat where you can dodge or block every single attack if you have the skill.
I agree. I think that there hasn't been a good example of an action combat that fuses with MMORPG gameplay really well. Whatever they come up with they need to test the hell out of it, and by that I mean that they need to monitor levels of fatigue and boredom that testers experience as they play over a duration. The candle that burns twice as bright lasts half as long and all that.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Correct me if I'm mistaken, this is what I interpreted watching the short videos.
All of this means diddly if there isn't on the fly class changes.
The thing people are missing here about the limited action bar is:
Each weapon has skills tied to it and are interchangable on the fly.
It's a multi class system to the core and on the fly.
In GW2 you can select a different weapon and change actions , but you are still the same class.
In EQN:
Play one class= 8 skills and four of them change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock two classes= 16 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon equipped.
Unlock 10 classes= 80 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
Unlock 40 classes= 320 skills and four of them per class change depending on weapon.
No you won't have a 320 skill hotbar. But you can cycle through hotbar builds everytime you change a weapon or class on the fly. Each hotbar build is capped at 8. Each class when using the same weapon as another class wields it and plays differently/
Not exactly. (I don't like that system)
My idea is that you have action bar 1 and action bar 2 and you can swap between the 2. In other words you would have 16 skills you can place for example and that's more variety for those who want it. (8 x 2).