I think I'll just leave this video here. This is what I think of when I see arguments on movement in combat.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
I watched a Lord of the Rings movie and this Ranger slid down the railing of a staircase, firing off three arrows in a row while doing it, and when he got to the bottom he stabbed a bad guy in the face with an arrow. That was cool to see. It's also cool to do stuff like that in MMOs.
There's realism and there's fun. Certain levels of realism minutia most people don't give a flaming crap about.
Legolas was an elf archer, not one of the Dunedain... c'mon, get it right.
As far as realistic movement in combat, let's see what some of the masters have to say:
Muhammad Ali: "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee"
Bruce Lee: "Be like water"
Sun Tzu: "Fall like a thunderbolt"
Yep, sounds like they were all standing still. By the way, MMA =/= real combat. It's a sport. Trying to apply those principles to videogames in some sort of realism argument is misguided at best. At most, you may be able to develop some type of warrior philosophy from your experiences... otherwise consider that there are thousands of years of martial philosophy at your disposal; are you claiming to know more than they do? What about arts like Wing Chun, traditional Japanese Jujutsu, or Angola Capoeira? These all seem much more "real" to me than two bros in a ring knocking the *&$% out of each other. To each his own, I guess.
/2c
In mixed martial arts you're free to bring whatever discipline you like to the ring. There's a reason most fighters learn muay thai and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, they work.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Maybe no one got to this yet , i admittedly didn't every post from every page. But I did read some boxing analogies that really made sense.
Not sure if any of you are golfers or have ever golfed, but we've all seen Happy Gilmore right?
There is a reason no one who is serious about golfing has his sort of swing. If you want power, you need to be rooted if only for a second but hips and legs need to be in the right place at the point of impact for maximum results.
I don't think the intention of the OP (though I am speaking for myself) is to have it all one way (NO ROOTED SKILLS) or have it all the other (ALL ROOTED SKILLS) but with more realism that your skill that 1hitko people should not be a kite skill.
Games should find a finer mix of what skills get you rooted vs skills you can kite.
They work based on MMA's specific ruleset. Unless I'm mistaken, certain joint locks or attacking the membrane are not allowed, and certain gear is required. As I understand it, this slants things in the favor of certain arts; specifically, ones that specialize in powerful attacks and grappling.
Knocking out an opponent or causing him to tap out may not always be the best goal; perhaps it's better just to escape, or in a last-ditch scenario use a technique that will end a fight decisively and require hospitalization. Something like parkour would have no use in a MMA ring, but it's conceivable it would have a great deal of use in the real world in order to escape someone. I think of a martial art as something just to know, but never ever to be used unless it's with 100% certainty. That's real life though; not a game. The entire "realism" argument is kind of pointless as in a real setting it would be something I'd try to avoid at all costs.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Maybe no one got to this yet , i admittedly didn't every post from every page. But I did read some boxing analogies that really made sense.
Not sure if any of you are golfers or have ever golfed, but we've all seen Happy Gilmore right?
There is a reason no one who is serious about golfing has his sort of swing. If you want power, you need to be rooted if only for a second but hips and legs need to be in the right place at the point of impact for maximum results.
That is all.
Wildly inaccurate, you need to be rooted for CONTROL, not power.
The happy gilmore swing, in terms of power, is far better.
That being said, I hate this 7 skill hotbar rooting mechanic with a burning passion.
I hated it in SWTOR, in TERA, and most recently in neverwinter.
Taking control away from my character, even for a millisecond, is crazy!
I do not mind if my execution fails if I move, BUT LET ME MOVE!!!!!!
Neverwinter really REALLY sucked at this, as did Tera, ( Tera had animation lock, but it is the same thing ).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe no one got to this yet , i admittedly didn't every post from every page. But I did read some boxing analogies that really made sense.
Not sure if any of you are golfers or have ever golfed, but we've all seen Happy Gilmore right?
There is a reason no one who is serious about golfing has his sort of swing. If you want power, you need to be rooted if only for a second but hips and legs need to be in the right place at the point of impact for maximum results.
That is all.
Wildly inaccurate, you need to be rooted for CONTROL, not power.
The happy gilmore swing, in terms of power, is far better.
That being said, I hate this 7 skill hotbar rooting mechanic with a burning passion.
I hated it in SWTOR, in TERA, and most recently in neverwinter.
Taking control away from my character, even for a millisecond, is crazy!
I do not mind if my execution fails if I move, BUT LET ME MOVE!!!!!!
Neverwinter really REALLY sucked at this, as did Tera, ( Tera had animation lock, but it is the same thing ).
Happy Gilmore's swing gets more power, but he's not running around doing it. He stops as he gets to the ball. He's not hitting the ball as he continues to run by it.
And they're only touching each other with their foils. They're not trying to physically harm each other.
Sabers. The idea is simulated combat, when the concept was to slice and disarm your enemies on horseback. This is also why in saber fighting the valid targets are from the waste up and not the legs. Imagine that style of fighting on horses and you add a layer of movement as well.
Epee is also very active and based solely on first touch. The entire body is a valid target, no right of way or any of that. Also very fast.
Foil tends to simulate more fatal wounds with the target area being primarily the core of the body (and the vitals within). Again, fast, fluid speedy combat. Three styles of sword fighting, all of them utilizing speed and movement instead of a flat footed plant before you strike approach.
Why did this EVER become a thing? In any kind of real life combat whenever you are executing a strike you have to standing still or at the very least lunging in the direction of the strike (most of the time forward). And casting while moving?? what?? most people cant even walk and eat at the same time how the hell can u expect to do something that requires an extreme amount of concentration while running? Even in FPS games, when you are running and trying to shoot you get penalized in terms of accuracy of your target reticule. I dont know why gamers expect such an unnatural thing to be standard in mmorpg games. You know why in a lot of games the character models look weird while attacking and running? IT'S BECAUSE ITS UNNATURAL AND DOESNT MAKE SENSE. Maybe because people are so used to watching crazy anime shows where people are fighting each other while flying in mid air or while sprinting in a field.
Because mmos arent realistic and anyone who tries to say thay are need a reality check. Its like this because it makes mmos easier for the players plain and simple.
And they're only touching each other with their foils. They're not trying to physically harm each other.
Sabers. The idea is simulated combat, when the concept was to slice and disarm your enemies on horseback. This is also why in saber fighting the valid targets are from the waste up and not the legs. Imagine that style of fighting on horses and you add a layer of movement as well.
Epee is also very active and based solely on first touch. The entire body is a valid target, no right of way or any of that. Also very fast.
Foil tends to simulate more fatal wounds with the target area being primarily the core of the body (and the vitals within). Again, fast, fluid speedy combat. Three styles of sword fighting, all of them utilizing speed and movement instead of a flat footed plant before you strike approach.
In any of the three are you running around like you're on crack swinging wildly?
___________________________ Have flask; will travel.
Have you ever seen two people actually get in a fight? Very rarely do they just stand across from each other, don't bother moving, and toss punches....I mean a real fight, with lethal intent....Like when you're in the streets and one guy is feed another guy's face into the wall after pounding him into a huddled mess in the ground and straddling him to punch him more....
We ain't practicing old school you shoot me, I shoot you....
yes because i have gotten into multiple fights, i am a boxing/MMA stuff enthusiast, and i used to spar regularly with people who do MMA. Yes, you need to move around a lot, but when you actually execute an attack for a split second or so your legs are planted on the ground. most of the power you need to deliver an attack comes from your core and your legs so if you do not have proper footing(which rarely happens while you are running) you are not executing the most amount of force that you can. in boxing a lot of the dodging is accomplished by torso and head movement, not necessarily stepping backwards.
Of course, you need to be moving around when you fight, just watch any boxing or mma fight. its bad to have people running circles around you. but when you actually do decide to throw a punch you need to stay put even for a split second. with that said, moving around in games while fighting should be encouraged but when you do decide to attack, a rooting mechanic that makes you stay put for a split second is definitely justified.
now i understand the common misconception everyone is having behind combat fluidity :P
Try fencing. Very active, movement oriented combat. The vast majority of hit occur while moving. This is the result of light weapons and light armor... speed makes up for the difference.
I'm curious since I never learned anything about fencing. Have they ever matched them against people of other sword fighting arts ( e.g. kendo or kali )?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Have you ever seen two people actually get in a fight? Very rarely do they just stand across from each other, don't bother moving, and toss punches....I mean a real fight, with lethal intent....Like when you're in the streets and one guy is feed another guy's face into the wall after pounding him into a huddled mess in the ground and straddling him to punch him more....
We ain't practicing old school you shoot me, I shoot you....
yes because i have gotten into multiple fights, i am a boxing/MMA stuff enthusiast, and i used to spar regularly with people who do MMA. Yes, you need to move around a lot, but when you actually execute an attack for a split second or so your legs are planted on the ground. most of the power you need to deliver an attack comes from your core and your legs so if you do not have proper footing(which rarely happens while you are running) you are not executing the most amount of force that you can. in boxing a lot of the dodging is accomplished by torso and head movement, not necessarily stepping backwards.
Of course, you need to be moving around when you fight, just watch any boxing or mma fight. its bad to have people running circles around you. but when you actually do decide to throw a punch you need to stay put even for a split second. with that said, moving around in games while fighting should be encouraged but when you do decide to attack, a rooting mechanic that makes you stay put for a split second is definitely justified.
now i understand the common misconception everyone is having behind combat fluidity :P
Try fencing. Very active, movement oriented combat. The vast majority of hit occur while moving. This is the result of light weapons and light armor... speed makes up for the difference.
I'm curious since I never learned anything about fencing. Have they ever matched them against people of other sword fighting arts ( e.g. kendo or kali )?
I'm sure someone has, although I'm not sure it could ever be a valid comparison. They are quite different weapons made for quite different armors and fighting.
Putting them together in a single match would not really be fair as one would be better designed for that bout and armor style.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Sabers. The idea is simulated combat, when the concept was to slice and disarm your enemies on horseback. This is also why in saber fighting the valid targets are from the waste up and not the legs. Imagine that style of fighting on horses and you add a layer of movement as well.
MMOs, and other games are not about simulating combat. It is about entertaining players by letting them participate in created combat systems that are designed for fun.
Sabers. The idea is simulated combat, when the concept was to slice and disarm your enemies on horseback. This is also why in saber fighting the valid targets are from the waste up and not the legs. Imagine that style of fighting on horses and you add a layer of movement as well.
MMOs, and other games are not about simulating combat. It is about entertaining players by letting them participate in created combat systems that are designed for fun.
I don't think the intention of the OP (though I am speaking for myself) is to have it all one way (NO ROOTED SKILLS) or have it all the other (ALL ROOTED SKILLS) but with more realism that your skill that 1hitko people should not be a kite skill.
Games should find a finer mix of what skills get you rooted vs skills you can kite.
That is all.
Exactly, finding a middle ground would make combat more engaging and dynamic.
I personally am for some form of rooted attacks in a game. I think this allows for a more strategic approach to combat and causes one to think about what attacks should be executed given the nature of that attack, and the situation on the battle field. Aimlessly jumping around while spamming 1,2,3 or circle strafing through your opponent spamming 1,2,3 is not my idea of player skill. Knowing that when you cast a melee attack, your character is going to draw back his huge 2h which takes 2.5 seconds, then step forward and swing his sword delivering a huge blow, all while having to time the attack based on the enemies position, and when you land the blow he goes flying backwards, that would be considered skill, and a lot of fun, all while not being super realistic, but it makes sense, which is the important part. Were not asking for realism really, we just want the combat to makes sense.
Movement still plays a crucial part in combat, positioning is huge in any game you play. active dodge and roll abilities would add to that. All we are saying is that if an archer is kiting, he can shoot his arrow while running but it will do less damage and harder to aim, it makes sense...Why is that bad? maybe one of the archers arrows has poison on the tip, all you need to do is hit the enemy, might as well do it on the move. When you want to do some serious damage, you run away, pull your bow back as far as you can, take some time to line up your shot, and fire, all while being rooted, because that's what it takes to deliver that kind of blow.
It all comes down to the animations for me, I think animation lock can be a good thing (TERA does it well) but i wont get into that.
Interesting discussion though, combat mechanics have always been my favorite.
Sabers. The idea is simulated combat, when the concept was to slice and disarm your enemies on horseback. This is also why in saber fighting the valid targets are from the waste up and not the legs. Imagine that style of fighting on horses and you add a layer of movement as well.
MMOs, and other games are not about simulating combat. It is about entertaining players by letting them participate in created combat systems that are designed for fun.
In other words... simulated combat.
No. "Simulated" implies there is a reality to model on. Designed for fun can depart from any reality as far as it takes.
For example, a pvp-flag is not a simulation of anything. An infinite ammo mechanics is not a simulation of anything.
Originally posted by Arakazi Problem is magic and projectiles don't really require aiming whilst melee requires you to be up close therefore without some movement penalty, mages and rangers will kite just about everything.
This...
Because in RL no one and i mean NO ONE can move and shoot with as much accuracy as when standing still. To date Arma 3 is the only game that has a really good grasp on this. Eventually fantasy/scifi MMOs will get "it" but so long as developers target the "casual" player (imo cant really exist in an MMO, but thats a whole other topic) its not going to happen.
archery is incredibly difficult while walking let alone running. and magic imo should be treated like reading while walking. it can be done, just slower.
For some reason this thread makes me picture people jumping around their room while mashing their broken playstation buttons and screaming at the screen because the movement isn't 'fluid enough', or people leaning from side to side as they move their mouse. Who cares about fluidity when your jerk off hand is all the movement you're using to begin with? lol
I have played a game that was based on realism, it was called Americas Army and it was very frustrating because you would die with one shot. It was really meant to be a simulator and for the army to encourage recruitment through online gaming.
Didn't read all the threads but has anyone pointed out that the bandwidth expense for older games really forced them to make some trade offs? By necessity they designed into combat ways to decrease bandwidth so the game would function. I'm guessing movement during combat was one of them.
I don't think the intention of the OP (though I am speaking for myself) is to have it all one way (NO ROOTED SKILLS) or have it all the other (ALL ROOTED SKILLS) but with more realism that your skill that 1hitko people should not be a kite skill.
Games should find a finer mix of what skills get you rooted vs skills you can kite.
That is all.
Exactly, finding a middle ground would make combat more engaging and dynamic.
I personally am for some form of rooted attacks in a game. I think this allows for a more strategic approach to combat and causes one to think about what attacks should be executed given the nature of that attack, and the situation on the battle field. Aimlessly jumping around while spamming 1,2,3 or circle strafing through your opponent spamming 1,2,3 is not my idea of player skill. Knowing that when you cast a melee attack, your character is going to draw back his huge 2h which takes 2.5 seconds, then step forward and swing his sword delivering a huge blow, all while having to time the attack based on the enemies position, and when you land the blow he goes flying backwards, that would be considered skill, and a lot of fun, all while not being super realistic, but it makes sense, which is the important part. Were not asking for realism really, we just want the combat to makes sense.
Movement still plays a crucial part in combat, positioning is huge in any game you play. active dodge and roll abilities would add to that. All we are saying is that if an archer is kiting, he can shoot his arrow while running but it will do less damage and harder to aim, it makes sense...Why is that bad? maybe one of the archers arrows has poison on the tip, all you need to do is hit the enemy, might as well do it on the move. When you want to do some serious damage, you run away, pull your bow back as far as you can, take some time to line up your shot, and fire, all while being rooted, because that's what it takes to deliver that kind of blow.
It all comes down to the animations for me, I think animation lock can be a good thing (TERA does it well) but i wont get into that.
Interesting discussion though, combat mechanics have always been my favorite.
Sounds like an attempt to blend fighting game (SSF4, MK) mechanics into RPG's. That could be interesting. Each ability has a start up and recovery time which allows for counters before and after. Jumping is risky when timed badly or used haphazardly. And in most fighting games during the frames you are performing an attack, you are rooted.
I like it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
archery is incredibly difficult while walking let alone running. and magic imo should be treated like reading while walking. it can be done, just slower.
That wouldn't be fun. Players don't play a game where they cannot even shoot straight and miss 99 out of 100 times.
Seriously? An enemy also takes more than two arrows in the chest. Reality is not meant for games. It can not coexist unless you have some really lame type of gameplay.
Lets have 40 people attack this one enemy, sure that makes sense. Yet combat of all things? Wow
Please watch tournament fencing or even boxing. Now note the lack of winning blows scored by 100% static persons?
The real question is: Whats up with asking such a question to a bunch of people that consider swimming, while wearing plate mail armor a must in their games? (Hint: Aion was bashed for not having it)
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
Comments
I'm actually a big fan of losing massive amounts of accuracy whilst sprinting.
Not simply moving, sprinting. Jumping should have the same effect IMO.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
In mixed martial arts you're free to bring whatever discipline you like to the ring. There's a reason most fighters learn muay thai and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, they work.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Maybe no one got to this yet , i admittedly didn't every post from every page. But I did read some boxing analogies that really made sense.
Not sure if any of you are golfers or have ever golfed, but we've all seen Happy Gilmore right?
There is a reason no one who is serious about golfing has his sort of swing. If you want power, you need to be rooted if only for a second but hips and legs need to be in the right place at the point of impact for maximum results.
I don't think the intention of the OP (though I am speaking for myself) is to have it all one way (NO ROOTED SKILLS) or have it all the other (ALL ROOTED SKILLS) but with more realism that your skill that 1hitko people should not be a kite skill.
Games should find a finer mix of what skills get you rooted vs skills you can kite.
That is all.
Knocking out an opponent or causing him to tap out may not always be the best goal; perhaps it's better just to escape, or in a last-ditch scenario use a technique that will end a fight decisively and require hospitalization. Something like parkour would have no use in a MMA ring, but it's conceivable it would have a great deal of use in the real world in order to escape someone. I think of a martial art as something just to know, but never ever to be used unless it's with 100% certainty. That's real life though; not a game. The entire "realism" argument is kind of pointless as in a real setting it would be something I'd try to avoid at all costs.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Wildly inaccurate, you need to be rooted for CONTROL, not power.
The happy gilmore swing, in terms of power, is far better.
That being said, I hate this 7 skill hotbar rooting mechanic with a burning passion.
I hated it in SWTOR, in TERA, and most recently in neverwinter.
Taking control away from my character, even for a millisecond, is crazy!
I do not mind if my execution fails if I move, BUT LET ME MOVE!!!!!!
Neverwinter really REALLY sucked at this, as did Tera, ( Tera had animation lock, but it is the same thing ).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Happy Gilmore's swing gets more power, but he's not running around doing it. He stops as he gets to the ball. He's not hitting the ball as he continues to run by it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wguFY0DDoAU
___________________________
Have flask; will travel.
Sabers. The idea is simulated combat, when the concept was to slice and disarm your enemies on horseback. This is also why in saber fighting the valid targets are from the waste up and not the legs. Imagine that style of fighting on horses and you add a layer of movement as well.
Epee is also very active and based solely on first touch. The entire body is a valid target, no right of way or any of that. Also very fast.
Foil tends to simulate more fatal wounds with the target area being primarily the core of the body (and the vitals within). Again, fast, fluid speedy combat. Three styles of sword fighting, all of them utilizing speed and movement instead of a flat footed plant before you strike approach.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Because mmos arent realistic and anyone who tries to say thay are need a reality check. Its like this because it makes mmos easier for the players plain and simple.
In any of the three are you running around like you're on crack swinging wildly?
___________________________
Have flask; will travel.
I'm curious since I never learned anything about fencing. Have they ever matched them against people of other sword fighting arts ( e.g. kendo or kali )?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I'm sure someone has, although I'm not sure it could ever be a valid comparison. They are quite different weapons made for quite different armors and fighting.
Putting them together in a single match would not really be fair as one would be better designed for that bout and armor style.
MMOs, and other games are not about simulating combat. It is about entertaining players by letting them participate in created combat systems that are designed for fun.
In other words... simulated combat.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Exactly, finding a middle ground would make combat more engaging and dynamic.
I personally am for some form of rooted attacks in a game. I think this allows for a more strategic approach to combat and causes one to think about what attacks should be executed given the nature of that attack, and the situation on the battle field. Aimlessly jumping around while spamming 1,2,3 or circle strafing through your opponent spamming 1,2,3 is not my idea of player skill. Knowing that when you cast a melee attack, your character is going to draw back his huge 2h which takes 2.5 seconds, then step forward and swing his sword delivering a huge blow, all while having to time the attack based on the enemies position, and when you land the blow he goes flying backwards, that would be considered skill, and a lot of fun, all while not being super realistic, but it makes sense, which is the important part. Were not asking for realism really, we just want the combat to makes sense.
Movement still plays a crucial part in combat, positioning is huge in any game you play. active dodge and roll abilities would add to that. All we are saying is that if an archer is kiting, he can shoot his arrow while running but it will do less damage and harder to aim, it makes sense...Why is that bad? maybe one of the archers arrows has poison on the tip, all you need to do is hit the enemy, might as well do it on the move. When you want to do some serious damage, you run away, pull your bow back as far as you can, take some time to line up your shot, and fire, all while being rooted, because that's what it takes to deliver that kind of blow.
It all comes down to the animations for me, I think animation lock can be a good thing (TERA does it well) but i wont get into that.
Interesting discussion though, combat mechanics have always been my favorite.
No. "Simulated" implies there is a reality to model on. Designed for fun can depart from any reality as far as it takes.
For example, a pvp-flag is not a simulation of anything. An infinite ammo mechanics is not a simulation of anything.
This...
Because in RL no one and i mean NO ONE can move and shoot with as much accuracy as when standing still. To date Arma 3 is the only game that has a really good grasp on this. Eventually fantasy/scifi MMOs will get "it" but so long as developers target the "casual" player (imo cant really exist in an MMO, but thats a whole other topic) its not going to happen.
archery is incredibly difficult while walking let alone running. and magic imo should be treated like reading while walking. it can be done, just slower.
yeah what up with it do people really want
This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feUMrwNdgVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrY_4zDawkA
style of combat in an mmorpg? i know i dont
Sounds like an attempt to blend fighting game (SSF4, MK) mechanics into RPG's. That could be interesting. Each ability has a start up and recovery time which allows for counters before and after. Jumping is risky when timed badly or used haphazardly. And in most fighting games during the frames you are performing an attack, you are rooted.
I like it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
That wouldn't be fun. Players don't play a game where they cannot even shoot straight and miss 99 out of 100 times.
Seriously? An enemy also takes more than two arrows in the chest. Reality is not meant for games. It can not coexist unless you have some really lame type of gameplay.
Lets have 40 people attack this one enemy, sure that makes sense. Yet combat of all things? Wow
Dear OP.
Please watch tournament fencing or even boxing. Now note the lack of winning blows scored by 100% static persons?
The real question is: Whats up with asking such a question to a bunch of people that consider swimming, while wearing plate mail armor a must in their games? (Hint: Aion was bashed for not having it)
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)