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Do pay systems really effect MMO communities?
Burdoc101
Member UncommonPosts: 283
Pay systems of today MMOs are Free to Play, Pay to Play or a mixed variation. It seems that there is a division among gamers (even from forums that I have read on this site) that Free to Play allows people that are “bottom-feeders” or “free-loaders” into the game. Bringing down the communities of the game and ruining the gameplay for others.
This creates a delusion of segregation among players that does not even exist, because you can find these exact style of players within Pay to Play games as well. The same people who call people “bottom-feeders” and “free-loaders” could even be said to be “on their high horse” flaunting their cash around, because they assume this gives them power over their game. There are Free to Play players that act like this too.
Money is needed for the development and continuation of the game, but there is no one right way to do it. You could throw millions at a game and get a bad game. Likewise, look at Minecraft and how successful that has become.
Companies would have not formed Free to Play systems if they were not making some type of funding from the community. I will always stand by this, a good game will reflect into a good community, because the community loves it and supports it. Any bad seeds will come and go as time progresses. A wrong way of making a game however, is a Pay to Win system, which I will not discuss because a system like that should not even exist in any game.
So what is the reason that this segregation occurs if it’s not because of the pay systems involved. Is it because of our history with MMOs, nostalgia or fear of change? And maybe even the mechanics of the game? I think that is all true. Ever since I was a little kid I was use to playing EQ 1 at the start of the Kunark expansion with a subscription. And what the norm was for MMOs was you bought the game, then you set up a subscription account to play the game. I was lucky enough to have my parents pay for it, or else I would not be starting this thread. There were F2P/mixed games however, like Runescape, at the time too. But I continued on the cycle of MMOs, Shadowbane, FFXI, EQ II, WoW, AoC and it only has been recently that AAA titles are expanding on the idea of F2P.
Free to Play has really been an idea just looked at by big industries, and only in recent years. I compare it to a new video game that is being tested and developed. There is the alpha, beta and release. The good, the bad and the ugly (if you will). I think there has been enough testing by developers to see what the community will stand and what they won’t tolerate (pay to win).
I have seen a lot of people complain about the immature, trolls, jerks, and children on games for F2P. But look at World of Warcraft then. A huge subscription based game and you can find the exact mentioned playing there too. I was a child playing EQ 1 and I had a blast playing with all sorts of age groups and was only spammed hate messages when I ninja looted once (yes I know, my bad). I will say that when it comes to children that it’s up to the parents to pay a monthly fee and for the game. That is the only filter for them. Looking at the world right now with Xbox Live and Playstation Network that are 5 dollars (PSN will be soon for PS4) a month. I don’t see that stopping most parents from letting their kids play a subscription game either. (Nor does this mean that consoles are bad for MMOs either!)
Back to when I ninja looted that was a game mechanic, not a pay system. Yes I did not have the maturity to see that it took players time to kill the boss and it was an item to be rolled on, not taken, but I was also playing a subscription based game. (Don’t worry GMs stripped the items from me and gave it back to the proper owner. GMs FTW) And yes mechanics have changed, so that players are offered a fair chance at items. It is only a shame that there has been so much hand holding as of late with games. But I am straying off my own topic. The developer and community of a game will decide on that.
I believe as a community of MMO players we need to look past the pay system and look at the game. If it is a game we love, we will support it and even though it won’t stop bad eggs from being in the game. Those people will come and go. The community that loves the game will stand the test of time. I really would love to hear what y’all think about this, but please list examples and details with your thoughts and opinions. I want this to be really dissected and looked at for the better.
Comments
Thing is, F2P is a pretty damn weird system to have.
The vast majority of entertainment, particularly games, is not free. You usually pay for stuff you use. Getting something for free...? Means something is amiss, while you expect to get something for nothing.
That reflects on games. When you get something for nothing, you care less about it. I don't think this is deniable. Payment generates responsibility, commitment, to whatever you have paid for.
WoW suffers from the hyper-popularity bug, and, by proxy, gets the same issue F2P games get: too many people. And I generally found WoW still a pay grade above certain F2P communities.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Couldn't agree more, except I have not played WoW so can't comment there but I have had very similar experiences in a lot of other games.
This isn't true for all F2P players of course but I have seen more commitment and loyalty to games and guilds from players who pay a subscription fee.
That is in my experiences with games over the last 10-15 years anyway, others will obviously differ in opinion and experiences.
So maybe it is just how human nature is or at least how society has formed our minds on something like this. I agree it is weird. I am going to look outside of video games for a moment. JC Penny had a change of policies and leadership. They wanted to be honest with their consumer base and decided to list the actual price of their products. In past years most items were charged 40-60% higher then their actual cost. However, even though this would be a better deal for consumers, they lost millions in the first year of doing this. It back fired on them so bad that they are still recovering from it. I mean do humans have to feel like they are getting their worth from something even though one deal could be the same but cheaper? Take two jeans, one 15 dollars the other 60 dollars. They are both the same, but do you feel better buying the 60 dollar one? Now back to video games. Planetside 2, even if you aren't a fan of FPS its still a great game for what it does. You can earn everything in the game without buying a single thing, except cosmetic items. Likewise you can buy weapon/vehicle unlocks, but not the detailed abilities of those weapons to make them more powerful, so it is not pay to win. What if PS2 was a subscription based game, and had these features still? Would that make it better?
The truth is, both Burdoc and Nagel are right. It would be nice if the pay system didn’t impact how people acted, but the fact is that it (logically) does to some degree. To what degree is another question that none of us here will likely ever be able to answer.
I think so.
As an example -
I used to grind instances in WoW for rare mount drops. One instance took me 181 runs before the mount dropped. @5 runs an hour, it took around 35 hours to get it.
Had someone else been able to log into the online store and purchase it, it really would have cheapened the whole process for me. Like, why bother doing the runs? Why not just spend the money? The pressure to spend the money in the online store instead of investing my time would diminish my in game experience. The second my Real life funds impact said in game experience, that is the second the game begins to lose its hold on me.
One of the great things about MMOs is that generally speaking, the only things that mattered in game were your ability and the time you could invest. Once outside factors begin to bleed into the game it changes the entire dynamic.
Then the developers and the community has to find the balancing act when and what can be in online store for it to work.
Do you begin to see the pattern? See Bad Behavior. Seek Something To Blame It On. Find simple answer, repeat often, come to believe it with your whole heart.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Is it as simple then as old generation/ideas vs the new generation/ideas? Also are the underlined in the forums or are they books? (gah can anyone point me to a tutorial how to highlight, I can't figure it out for the life of me lol, PM if you don't mind to not clutter forum thanks!)
[Edit]
Great link to geek hierarchy thanks.
No one ever sees themselves as a problem.
You're going to talk in very vague and general terms. A lot of guys will show up with "me toos". You may even come to believe you're right, because there's always plenty that are eager to pile on the "these damn kids" wagon.
But unless you're willing to invest more time then you're likely to have, or want to, you're operating on anecdote (not demographics). Subject to pecking order establishment. Big egos.
Doubt anybody's a villain or anything. But "Me" is always the Good Guy (for any given author), it's "those other guys" that are the Problem.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Anyway, back to your topic:
No, I don't believe the audience has substantially altered from gamers 15 years past (except for a general rise in the average age).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well definitely how we play games really has. From board games to text based to now 3-d and expanding. I think the mechanics and rules of the game are ever evolving. I think we are on a U slope for those. DnD is a a really complicated game if you follow everything to the T. And slowly we have removed alot of the thinking and remembering involved with playing a game like that. And sometimes to the point that certain AAA have over simplified the games. I think the trend is just on the start of the right of the U. And that could be causing friction.
As to your other post, I do believe it was on topic. Though I would like you to expand on it for me, because I was left wondering if how I am posing the questions or message was in the wrong way. Or how people can just be stubborn with ideas to not be open minded to others?
World of Warcraft, SWTOR, EQ 1 and FFXI have gold spammers. I think gold spammers are prevalent in any game they can get their hands on and have business in.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
It is not that the community folds on itself, but the developers create the division by building/changing their game to microtransactions. Current models are based individual purchases of supremacy goods so it is logical that a community crumbles.
Wow has had gold spammers even during beta they had them heck even DCUO had them way before F2P DDO alot of games that had sub's had gold spammers but yes F2P have them and they do get bad at times but I do remember playing EQ2 and not being able to see chat in any channel at times because of gold spammers and this was long before F2P. I played PWI for a month and seen chat on days with out one then the next day they are going nuts but most of the time I dont see it cause I turn all chat off in games because of the chat in general sorry Chuck Norris jokes Lerroy Jekkins tuff gets pretty old and even the bacon stuff that was going on in SWTOR right after launch and came back after F2P will drive you to quit playing. Thats why I only play in groups where I meet the players by playing the game not through chat anymore.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Channel:http://https//www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw
What if the goods in micro transaction do not affect gameplay but are just cosmetic? It almost sounds like there has to be products that you could buy for others if you wanted to. I think this would be ridiculous but lets say (as an example) a group micro transaction would be for the guild hall like a (kickstarter of sorts).I think that would be outrageous to ask the player base. But I cannot think of group/community oriented micro transactions. It is a very interesting point that you bring up. (Making me scratch my head thinking about it.) I think any group transaction would take away from the community. I do think it would be very possible to have cosmetic gifts for others. I think the superior good would be anything that would be pay to win. As long as the micro transaction is not that, then I still see the community holding firm (as long as the game is good and they love it, just like any other good game). A community would crumble if the game is unbalanced.
There is no balancing act. My feelings mirror the above poster. I'm done with Cash Shops. I am going to be playing FF14 starting today and for the future. It is the only game I am aware of that will not have MT/RMT in it. Sad as it is to say, for me, that's half the battle. The rest of the MMO need only be mediocre without a Cash Shop and it's already better that everything out there with one. Fortunately, FF14 is well above mediocre. So as long as it never implements a store, they'll get my money. Otherwise, I'm prepared to step away from MMOs GW2 really solidified this for me. The Cash Shop itself is fine. But the fact that the games economy is forcibly dependant on real money (If players get too much gold, the value of gems diminishes) means the metagaming aspect of it is severly impacted. I am a crafter and a market player. Cash Shops don't like the competition.
There can be no online store if it is to work.
EQ had a great communities until F2P came in. Now they maybe 200 in gen chat and the only people talking are the noobs asking questions and very few answering back. Before F2P everybody talked about this and that and it was a living and vibrant community and now its just dead and so sad that i cant log in anymore.
I don't think it has anything to do with the shop as the shop in EQ was there for a long time and i never bought nothing from it but toys. It maybe its to do with the fact EQ is gone easy mode and grouping in the low zones isn't needed anymore i am not sure i just know that it seems to have gotten so much less like EQ since it went F2P.
I am currently playing on a free shard where no one pays anything. Yet the community is great, best one I've been on in years.
Several reasons why of course, but a big one is the server is heavily moderated, and bad behavior is not tolerated. Even too much whining in open forums is met with a personal response from a GM reminding you that the service is freely provided and you are free to leave if you don't care for it.
Payment models may have a slight impact in the overall playerbase quality/community, but design, moderation and other factors probably are equally if not more important.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Everquest is my favorite game, but Everquest came out in 1999. I think the community is looking for a reboot or have moved on to different titles. And newbs are needed for a game, because for the newbs that stick around may bring friends that will keep the heart going for Everquest.
[Edit]
I will admit the cash shop has items that should not be in there that do break the immersion value of game play. I wish that they did not have mounts or the new "Deviant" stat items within the game. Its like all of their old content, all of the "twink" gear for your alt didn't matter any more. And your right that is killing the game. It is a pay to win style of pay system and should be changed.
I'm on the same page as well, having played a lot of F2P games I'm absolutely done with cash shops. My last foray being Rift which I had played since release but now they not only sell stat gear in the cash shop which would take you forever to grind for by just playing the game, but also the chat is now clogged with gold spam and an endless stream of immature garbage.
FFXIV ARR is the only game I plan on playing and will continue to play as long as they don't a) add a cash shop and/or b) make the game as easy and boring as WoW is now.
That is a good point to bring. If the community could moderate their game I think that would be a huge benefit for any game.