I think this game is just really about taking every convention and tossing it out the window. I have resigned myself to just play the fucking thing and not think about it.
These guys should stop talking and just make the damn game. Let us know when its finished.
^ This
Originally posted by ignore_me I think this game is just really about taking every convention and tossing it out the window. I have resigned myself to just play the fucking thing and not think about it.
^ And This.
Trying to rationalize the inner workings of this game hurts my brain.
As long as there are enough skill and tiers to progress for a year. Similar to EVE and Wushu. In these games you just don't log on and say "im get this!" Getting "this" takes time. This makes players unique.
If it takes me months to complete a set of skill tiers, by the time you see what I'm doing and decide you want to do it too, it will take you a long time to copy. Long systems break cookie cutters.
On the other hand if it's too quick to get it all, like it is in TSW, it will shorten the life of the game.
I'm just wondering how they will balance things so even the least optimal builds will still be viable. Will content be so easy that any build will have no trouble. If so better builds will roll through content and nothing will feel challenging. And if combat is challenging, will fom builds be necessary for more difficult content, limiting viability of having the build you want? (DDO multi-class was good on paper, but in game there was really only a few builds per class to run any of the difficult settings.
I like the ideas they are striving to but in game-sandbox elements, flexible builds and others but if combat is not challenging, whats the point ie too easy. And since it seems pvp might just be added on and not a pillar of importance, will that be fun enough to hold interest?
More info is needed, probably won't know how well things will work until beta, as most ideas are great until we get into the world.
Personally I think this will work out quite well with they way they have said they are planning on having you progress through tiers. Anyone can gain normal XP and level a toon to max level any number of ways without ever really learning how to play their characters at all in pretty much all of your MMO's to date for the most part. Having to actually do specific tasks to progress through tiers based on the class your progressing rather than by simply gaining XP could go a long ways into teaching people how to play better if its all done right.
Seems like there will still be plenty of longevity even if tiers can be progressed through in days/weeks. With the sheer amount of classes available you'll have multiple classes to progress but more importantly just finding those classes will take time. The fact that no 2 people will unlock the same class in the same way most of the time will help with that a lot. There is no googling "how to unlock x class" and then going and doing exactly what the site or whoever you ask says, you'll pretty much have to explore and figure it out on your own for the most part from the sound of things.
Originally posted by kyssari Personally I think this will work out quite well with they way they have said they are planning on having you progress through tiers. Anyone can gain normal XP and level a toon to max level any number of ways without ever really learning how to play their characters at all in pretty much all of your MMO's to date for the most part. Having to actually do specific tasks to progress through tiers based on the class your progressing rather than by simply gaining XP could go a long ways into teaching people how to play better if its all done right.
Bad players will still find a way to be bad players. You can't force skill or brains.
Personally I think this will work out quite well with they way they have said they are planning on having you progress through tiers. Anyone can gain normal XP and level a toon to max level any number of ways without ever really learning how to play their characters at all in pretty much all of your MMO's to date for the most part. Having to actually do specific tasks to progress through tiers based on the class your progressing rather than by simply gaining XP could go a long ways into teaching people how to play better if its all done right.
Seems like there will still be plenty of longevity even if tiers can be progressed through in days/weeks. With the sheer amount of classes available you'll have multiple classes to progress but more importantly just finding those classes will take time. The fact that no 2 people will unlock the same class in the same way most of the time will help with that a lot. There is no googling "how to unlock x class" and then going and doing exactly what the site or whoever you ask says, you'll pretty much have to explore and figure it out on your own for the most part from the sound of things.
Not sure how that jives with that "play what you want and level something else" they were talking about.. I do believe they said you can put points into some other class while playing your favorite one....
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Georgeson's comment's are nice and all, but there is also an implied "cap", since there are no levels or progression in EQN.
GW2 comes to mind, even though SOE is trying to distance themselves.
So basically a player unlocks stuff .. unlocks some more .. then some more!! on a roll .. /unlocks some more!!
Then they find that there isn't really progression in this game .. everyone is designed to hit the cap and be perfectly happy (just like in GW2).
I want my old EQ back
GW 2 is still a themepark game that is trying to use some elements of a sandbox game to make the themepark more dynamic. EQ Next is a real sandbox game and going to be something most mmo players have never experience before. There is progression but it is there only too give you more options to play with in the sand and not sole purpose of the game.
So lets just say it takes your average gamer about 10 days to unlock the four tiers for a class. Right there were talking months of playtime to unlock half of the classes (200 days). This does not include time spent doing other things like crafting, or otherwise "gearing up." Sounds pretty good at far as starting content goes.
Originally posted by Jagsman32 If it takes 2-weeks for an average gamer (5-10 hours a week of only trying to tier up) I am OK with that. There are 40 classes so that's a lot of tiers. Also, the games focus should be on gameplay and adventure, not grinding levels. Only make epic quests take months, like getting your epic or a mount or building a castle to get a title.
I don't think an average gamer only plays 5 to 10 hours per week...I think that is the definition of a casual gamer.
But lets say it only takes10 to 20 hours to tier up (I am assuming that means max tier in a class)...then "IF" you can actually access 40 classes (because you won't be able to given the evil/good nature of some classes making them diametrically opposites and hence unattainable to some races/classes) that would only take 400 to 800 hours to tier up all classes. Let's assume that only 10 of the 40 classes are unattainable for a given player (due to race/other class choices) that means 300 to 600 hours to max out all classes for a typical player. For a hardcore gamer that will be about one month. For what I'd call an average gamer that would be about 6 months. Casual gamer maybe 12 months.
I don't see this as enough progression.
Sandbox is not about levels and gear grinding, its concepts are giving the players the freedom to do what they want to do and being active in a world that can be built and destroyed by players and monsters. If you are bored go dig a hole and the game will spawn a adventure for you to do, jumping into that hole is your choice. There always something to do as oppose to sitting around drooling on your keyboard waiting for a queue to pop in a normal themepark game.
You can keep repeating your personal sandbox mantra over and over, but it won't make it true.
Just because a game is sandbox, doesn't mean its void of intelligent, logical progression. Any game, be it sandbox, themepark or even super mario brothers, should have a proper system of advancement. The idea that you can make any building, craft any armor, or tackle any monster from day one is not only illogical, its just silly.
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
Originally posted by Jagsman32 If it takes 2-weeks for an average gamer (5-10 hours a week of only trying to tier up) I am OK with that. There are 40 classes so that's a lot of tiers. Also, the games focus should be on gameplay and adventure, not grinding levels. Only make epic quests take months, like getting your epic or a mount or building a castle to get a title.
I don't think an average gamer only plays 5 to 10 hours per week...I think that is the definition of a casual gamer.
But lets say it only takes10 to 20 hours to tier up (I am assuming that means max tier in a class)...then "IF" you can actually access 40 classes (because you won't be able to given the evil/good nature of some classes making them diametrically opposites and hence unattainable to some races/classes) that would only take 400 to 800 hours to tier up all classes. Let's assume that only 10 of the 40 classes are unattainable for a given player (due to race/other class choices) that means 300 to 600 hours to max out all classes for a typical player. For a hardcore gamer that will be about one month. For what I'd call an average gamer that would be about 6 months. Casual gamer maybe 12 months.
I don't see this as enough progression.
Sandbox is not about levels and gear grinding, its concepts are giving the players the freedom to do what they want to do and being active in a world that can be built and destroyed by players and monsters. If you are bored go dig a hole and the game will spawn a adventure for you to do, jumping into that hole is your choice. There always something to do as oppose to sitting around drooling on your keyboard waiting for a queue to pop in a normal themepark game.
You can keep repeating your personal sandbox mantra over and over, but it won't make it true.
Just because a game is sandbox, doesn't mean its void of intelligent, logical progression. Any game, be it sandbox, themepark or even super mario brothers, should have a proper system of advancement. The idea that you can make any building, craft any armor, or tackle any monster from day one is not only illogical, its just silly.
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
Your logic is flawed thinking you can do all those things on day one and shows you don't have much knowledge about what has been said about the game. The progression comes in getting all those things you just mention. Sandboxes are not themeparks what you do in them is a completely different style of game play.
why do people want to play a game for days and weeks ? Instead of Long term ? why would you enjoy getting every skill in a few weeks ? then there is no more skills to get after that hahah
people suck these days if you want to know the truth haha it is a lot more fun working hard for a long time to accomplish something then just being handed it in the first weeks or days of playing
Well to be honest, if some people put as much effort into real world endeavors as they do into MMOs (or gaming in general), they might actually do great things in this world. Working hard in the real world = good, and should be rewarded.
Working hard and spending countless hours moving pixels around in a game? Not so much.
exactly that!
too bad more people weren't getting a real sense of accomplishment from accomplishing REAL things. things that benefit their real life and are longlasting.
if there were, then there wouldn't be so many people filling that need within a GAME world.
So lets just say it takes your average gamer about 10 days to unlock the four tiers for a class. Right there were talking months of playtime to unlock half of the classes (200 days). This does not include time spent doing other things like crafting, or otherwise "gearing up." Sounds pretty good at far as starting content goes.
Exactly this.
It sounded as though a tier of gear can take days or weeks to collect. Averaged to a week it would take 2-1/2 years just to gear up all the classes, not accounting for the time to actually acquire the classes. The acquisition part may take longer to achieve since it can be based on your actions. You may need to really make up for your old decisions if you want both the Paladin and the Shadowknight class.
Also, as mentioned above, this doesn't account for all of the non-combat activties such as crafting and housing.
Days and weeks?? I'm dying to find out about these 40 classes Ha Ha Ha.. EQ started with 14 original clases, and added 2 more later.. Honestly that is a lot of class choice.. I can think of a few more that could of been added to the list taken from other games.. But 40? C'mon people, do you honestly think that there are that many original concepts??
What I want to know about tiers is if I hit max tier and I go back to the area where I was tier 1, will I be too powerful for the mobs to give me the same challenge as they did when I first started.
Originally posted by HighMarshal What I want to know about tiers is if I hit max tier and I go back to the area where I was tier 1, will I be too powerful for the mobs to give me the same challenge as they did when I first started.
There is the server's emergent AI, and the "on the fly" dungeon creator. Even if you are in a Tier 1 Area, if you are currently using your Tier 5 character, the server could spawn encounters that could be challenging to you, or a dungeon could open up, under or nearby you, where the targets are tier appropriate.
However, if you go out of your way to just FIND AND KILL tier 1 stuff... like a cute little bunny... you are going to destroy it with little thought. Tiering up what you want, like that bunny, just to make it more of a challenge, is not very realistic. But you having a wiser outlook, and knowing where the underfoot has it hold, is very much more viable.
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
It has horizontal progression, you should go watch the panels about it before posting again. Sandboxes give you the options to do what you like to do, it doesn't mean you are able to too do it from day one, you have to progress those areas by playing.
Originally posted by Rydeson Days and weeks?? I'm dying to find out about these 40 classes Ha Ha Ha.. EQ started with 14 original clases, and added 2 more later.. Honestly that is a lot of class choice.. I can think of a few more that could of been added to the list taken from other games.. But 40? C'mon people, do you honestly think that there are that many original concepts??
Combining the three EQ games and VG (which being generic fantasy can be applied to EQ) and removing some redundancy
Fighters:
1. Warrior (Eq2 berserker)
2. Guardian
3. Berserker (EQ1)
4. Monk (Bruiser too redundant imo)
5. Paladin
6. Death Knight
Scouts:
7. Ranger
8. Swashbuckler
9. Rogue (Eq1 Rogue/EQ2 Assasin)
10. Bard
Priests:
11. Cleric
12. Inquisitor
13. Shaman
14. Disciple
15. Blood Mage
16. Channeler
17. Druid (EQ1 style)
18. Warden (melee based druid)
Casters:
19. Wizard
20. Warlock
21. Enchanter
22. Coercer (I think there is enough potential for two seperate classes here with coercer more of a charm based dps than a ccish class)
23. Necromancer
24. Conjuror/Mage
25. Fury
Miscellaneous:
26. Beastlord
27. Alchemist
28. Tempest (EQN class already revealed)
I dont think it would be hard to get 12 more classes.
For instance: plant based pet class (a la DAOC animist), battlemage, semi boring weapon based classes (ie lancer), elemental specialists (pyromancer, aeromancer, hydromancer, geomancer)
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
It has horizontal progression, you should go watch the panels about it before posting again. Sandboxes give you the options to do what you like to do, it doesn't mean you are able to too do it from day one, you have to progress those areas by playing.
I saw them live, and have watched them multiple times since. I've also played every major sandbox mmo to date, and many minor ones.
Comments
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
^ This
^ And This.
Trying to rationalize the inner workings of this game hurts my brain.
I'm about ready to hibernate until launch day.
this could be good or bad.
As long as there are enough skill and tiers to progress for a year. Similar to EVE and Wushu. In these games you just don't log on and say "im get this!" Getting "this" takes time. This makes players unique.
If it takes me months to complete a set of skill tiers, by the time you see what I'm doing and decide you want to do it too, it will take you a long time to copy. Long systems break cookie cutters.
On the other hand if it's too quick to get it all, like it is in TSW, it will shorten the life of the game.
I'm just wondering how they will balance things so even the least optimal builds will still be viable. Will content be so easy that any build will have no trouble. If so better builds will roll through content and nothing will feel challenging. And if combat is challenging, will fom builds be necessary for more difficult content, limiting viability of having the build you want? (DDO multi-class was good on paper, but in game there was really only a few builds per class to run any of the difficult settings.
I like the ideas they are striving to but in game-sandbox elements, flexible builds and others but if combat is not challenging, whats the point ie too easy. And since it seems pvp might just be added on and not a pillar of importance, will that be fun enough to hold interest?
More info is needed, probably won't know how well things will work until beta, as most ideas are great until we get into the world.
Georgeson's comment's are nice and all, but there is also an implied "cap", since there are no levels or progression in EQN.
GW2 comes to mind, even though SOE is trying to distance themselves.
So basically a player unlocks stuff .. unlocks some more .. then some more!! on a roll .. /unlocks some more!!
Then they find that there isn't really progression in this game .. everyone is designed to hit the cap and be perfectly happy (just like in GW2).
I want my old EQ back
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
Personally I think this will work out quite well with they way they have said they are planning on having you progress through tiers. Anyone can gain normal XP and level a toon to max level any number of ways without ever really learning how to play their characters at all in pretty much all of your MMO's to date for the most part. Having to actually do specific tasks to progress through tiers based on the class your progressing rather than by simply gaining XP could go a long ways into teaching people how to play better if its all done right.
Seems like there will still be plenty of longevity even if tiers can be progressed through in days/weeks. With the sheer amount of classes available you'll have multiple classes to progress but more importantly just finding those classes will take time. The fact that no 2 people will unlock the same class in the same way most of the time will help with that a lot. There is no googling "how to unlock x class" and then going and doing exactly what the site or whoever you ask says, you'll pretty much have to explore and figure it out on your own for the most part from the sound of things.
Bad players will still find a way to be bad players. You can't force skill or brains.
Not sure how that jives with that "play what you want and level something else" they were talking about.. I do believe they said you can put points into some other class while playing your favorite one....
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
GW 2 is still a themepark game that is trying to use some elements of a sandbox game to make the themepark more dynamic. EQ Next is a real sandbox game and going to be something most mmo players have never experience before. There is progression but it is there only too give you more options to play with in the sand and not sole purpose of the game.
There is no endgame in a sandbox, it doesn't end.
So lets just say it takes your average gamer about 10 days to unlock the four tiers for a class. Right there were talking months of playtime to unlock half of the classes (200 days). This does not include time spent doing other things like crafting, or otherwise "gearing up." Sounds pretty good at far as starting content goes.
You can keep repeating your personal sandbox mantra over and over, but it won't make it true.
Just because a game is sandbox, doesn't mean its void of intelligent, logical progression. Any game, be it sandbox, themepark or even super mario brothers, should have a proper system of advancement. The idea that you can make any building, craft any armor, or tackle any monster from day one is not only illogical, its just silly.
Progression is still important to make the journey feel like its worthwhile.
Your logic is flawed thinking you can do all those things on day one and shows you don't have much knowledge about what has been said about the game. The progression comes in getting all those things you just mention. Sandboxes are not themeparks what you do in them is a completely different style of game play.
nope. interesting moment to moment gameplay is inherently interesting no matter how you got there, or whether there was a "journey" or not.
too bad "gamers" don't give a damn about gameplay nowadays. its all about the virtual work ethic.
---------------------------
Corpus Callosum
---------------------------
exactly that!
too bad more people weren't getting a real sense of accomplishment from accomplishing REAL things. things that benefit their real life and are longlasting.
if there were, then there wouldn't be so many people filling that need within a GAME world.
real work ethic == good. worthwhile investments
virtual work ethic == unhealthy. self destructive
---------------------------
Corpus Callosum
---------------------------
Exactly this.
It sounded as though a tier of gear can take days or weeks to collect. Averaged to a week it would take 2-1/2 years just to gear up all the classes, not accounting for the time to actually acquire the classes. The acquisition part may take longer to achieve since it can be based on your actions. You may need to really make up for your old decisions if you want both the Paladin and the Shadowknight class.
Also, as mentioned above, this doesn't account for all of the non-combat activties such as crafting and housing.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
There is the server's emergent AI, and the "on the fly" dungeon creator. Even if you are in a Tier 1 Area, if you are currently using your Tier 5 character, the server could spawn encounters that could be challenging to you, or a dungeon could open up, under or nearby you, where the targets are tier appropriate.
However, if you go out of your way to just FIND AND KILL tier 1 stuff... like a cute little bunny... you are going to destroy it with little thought. Tiering up what you want, like that bunny, just to make it more of a challenge, is not very realistic. But you having a wiser outlook, and knowing where the underfoot has it hold, is very much more viable.
Yes, I want the experience to be as grueling and agonizing as possible. Twist my words harder.
Its really simple, you work your way up to certain things. Its a virtual world, so there are going to be similarities. The idea that you can just do everything day one is retarded. Builders build small things, work their way up to grand things. Armor crafters build simple armor, work there way up to more ornate. Gaining knowledge and advancing in games is completely irrelevant to sandbox or themepark, its just a way of emulating real life to make something feel rewarding.
Leveling in every MMO released since LOTRO is a matter of days or weeks. Most MMOs have maxed levels before the official release with the head starts.
That said, i hope there is some kind of long term progression because goals that take the longest to achieve are usually the most satisfying.
It has horizontal progression, you should go watch the panels about it before posting again. Sandboxes give you the options to do what you like to do, it doesn't mean you are able to too do it from day one, you have to progress those areas by playing.
Combining the three EQ games and VG (which being generic fantasy can be applied to EQ) and removing some redundancy
Fighters:
1. Warrior (Eq2 berserker)
2. Guardian
3. Berserker (EQ1)
4. Monk (Bruiser too redundant imo)
5. Paladin
6. Death Knight
Scouts:
7. Ranger
8. Swashbuckler
9. Rogue (Eq1 Rogue/EQ2 Assasin)
10. Bard
Priests:
11. Cleric
12. Inquisitor
13. Shaman
14. Disciple
15. Blood Mage
16. Channeler
17. Druid (EQ1 style)
18. Warden (melee based druid)
Casters:
19. Wizard
20. Warlock
21. Enchanter
22. Coercer (I think there is enough potential for two seperate classes here with coercer more of a charm based dps than a ccish class)
23. Necromancer
24. Conjuror/Mage
25. Fury
Miscellaneous:
26. Beastlord
27. Alchemist
28. Tempest (EQN class already revealed)
I dont think it would be hard to get 12 more classes.
For instance: plant based pet class (a la DAOC animist), battlemage, semi boring weapon based classes (ie lancer), elemental specialists (pyromancer, aeromancer, hydromancer, geomancer)
I saw them live, and have watched them multiple times since. I've also played every major sandbox mmo to date, and many minor ones.
Kick rocks kid.