Originally posted by Kyllien Oh who cares? ESO is ESO, EQN is EQN. If they were the same we would only need one game. Let each attempt to draw their own crowds and everyone wins. And since EQN will be F2P I am betting that it will have many, many more players regardless of art style.
i love seeing shit like this. Of course its goin to have allot of players.... at first. Because its F2P allot of people that wouldn't have even played it if it had a sub attached will try it. But how long they play it will be a different story.
I myself wont even make the account to DL the game. They will not take my account and add it to the others so they can tell their board of trusties that the game is doing well because of all the accounts that were made. Wont be a statistic for their justification in why they made EQN the way they did.
Yet I'm sure you'll still be be here weighing in on the quality of the game regardless...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Kyllien Oh who cares? ESO is ESO, EQN is EQN. If they were the same we would only need one game. Let each attempt to draw their own crowds and everyone wins. And since EQN will be F2P I am betting that it will have many, many more players regardless of art style.
i love seeing shit like this. Of course its goin to have allot of players.... at first. Because its F2P allot of people that wouldn't have even played it if it had a sub attached will try it. But how long they play it will be a different story.
I myself wont even make the account to DL the game. They will not take my account and add it to the others so they can tell their board of trusties that the game is doing well because of all the accounts that were made. Wont be a statistic for their justification in why they made EQN the way they did.
So glad that I haven't become so disgruntled that I no longer find enjoyment in gaming, nor spend time criticizing something I have no intent on playing. Makes me glad there are still interesting games on the horizon (EQN) that keep me going. Assuming you'll never be pleased with any game, you're loss I guess.
Originally posted by xAPOCx Originally posted by Kyllien Oh who cares? ESO is ESO, EQN is EQN. If they were the same we would only need one game. Let each attempt to draw their own crowds and everyone wins. And since EQN will be F2P I am betting that it will have many, many more players regardless of art style.
i love seeing shit like this. Of course its goin to have allot of players.... at first. Because its F2P allot of people that wouldn't have even played it if it had a sub attached will try it. But how long they play it will be a different story.
I myself wont even make the account to DL the game. They will not take my account and add it to the others so they can tell their board of trusties that the game is doing well because of all the accounts that were made. Wont be a statistic for their justification in why they made EQN the way they did.
i don't even think that is true, i think ESO will still have more players honestly. not because its a better game, but because ES is a much more popular IP and is guaranteed to be on both of the consoles.
not only that but ESO is actually catering to their fans and EQN is not. ESO has a look and feel similar to an ES game, EQN does not.
that is a huge factor many people here seem to not understand.
Originally posted by Kyllien Oh who cares? ESO is ESO, EQN is EQN. If they were the same we would only need one game. Let each attempt to draw their own crowds and everyone wins. And since EQN will be F2P I am betting that it will have many, many more players regardless of art style.
i love seeing shit like this. Of course its goin to have allot of players.... at first. Because its F2P allot of people that wouldn't have even played it if it had a sub attached will try it. But how long they play it will be a different story.
I myself wont even make the account to DL the game. They will not take my account and add it to the others so they can tell their board of trusties that the game is doing well because of all the accounts that were made. Wont be a statistic for their justification in why they made EQN the way they did.
i don't even think that is true, i think ESO will still have more players honestly. not because its a better game, but because ES is a much more popular IP and is guaranteed to be on both of the consoles.
not only that but ESO is actually catering to their fans and EQN is not. ESO has a look and feel similar to an ES game, EQN does not.
that is a huge factor many people here seem to not understand.
Honestly the more I hear people complain that EQN isn't in the spirit, likeness, vein, etc. as EQ the cheaper they make EQ sound. EQ was about it's graphics and tab targeting, right? Any meaningful comparisons between the two could not possibly be known yet. Molding an MMO to the "look and feel" of it's previous iterations does not mean it will be a good or successful MMO.
I wish ESO the best of luck when it launches and I'll probably play it myself. It will be highly popular to begin with, as with most MMOs, but I guarantee you it's lasting success will not be based on it's similarly to the ES franchise. The same will be said for EQN. We all know by now that lasting success for an MMO has to do with how much content there is for players long term and how fun the content is.
Wonder who the target audience is? The opening credits state that the content is unsuitable for children - yet the disney graphics are surely aimed at children. Here in Europe, particularly the UK, Disney stuff is considered very much for children. Young teens and early twenties consider it 'uncool' There are other descriptions. It is very rare for families to 'game' together. I feel sure that it will be popular in America, but a global audience is required for success these days. At the end of the day, no matter what the bitter and jaded (myself included) members of this forum say, no one will know until release just how good their decision proves to be. I have played EQ one and two, but have no plans or interest in purchasing EQnext.
Just...wow. I could make my own survey, vote 1000 times in it and it would be just as useful as the one you made. A survey placed only on one forum, that has specific community, with specific mindset... a niche. And from that community, you have a vocal part, that represents the extremes (love or hate). And from that group you pick ones that come only to a specific part of forum. So to add to all this stupidity one needs to take into account, that we have a game that has an art style that follows its predecessor and one that broken from predecessor style and created something new. So in this case the most vocal part on one side are old players that are angry because of that change. That adds even more unfairness to the retardness that is there already. And to add even more nonsense, you compare those two values, already useless and claim that there is a connection, disregarding all other factors.
To inject a little bit of reason to this comedy. Is a 1000 sufficient sample for a group of potential mmorpg players, which are now in millions? No, the smallest surveys about mmorpgs on web counts anything form 40000+ sample and it is still not taken seriously by many. You need to publish your survey in a place, where only people with interest to the game come to visit, not where people come to critisize and badmouth a game. You don't care about people that were not going to buy the game in the first place and just come in to vote how bad it is, you want to check if people who are interested in game don't like the graphics. You can't survey a niche, your survey needs to be on the web, not on forum.. There you have it, surveying for dummies.
If you wanted to prove that angry self proclaimed critics that post on this specific forum don't like the game, well good job.
Please calm down. It seems I really hit a nerve here.
This is actually not my survey. Someone from the Reddit forum did it. He also posted it here and probably also on other sites too, so he did his best to reach as many different people as possible. He reaches all the people who ever visit a forum. They don’t even have to post there. What exactly do you mean by “on the web”? I don’t know how something can be more on the web then this.
These people are more diverse then you think. I admit that this is a quite crude method. It won’t produce exact results, but it certainly shows a trend.
This forum is actually not as bad as you think. As you see in the results, no one came here to talk down ESOs graphics. Everyone seems very much pleased with it. People don’t complain without a reason.
As I said it is very hard to reach people that won’t come to your survey on their own. You would need banner ads ore something like this to reach them. It is also hard to say beforehand who might be interested in buying a game, so you will always have problems finding the right sample group no matter what methods you use.
It is actually not that important to have a giant sample group to come to a significant result. You just have to ask enough people to make sure that no single opinion is overrepresented by chance. So if you just ask 10 people they can by chance all share the same opinion, but that cant happen with 1000 people. It is a fallacy to think that enlarging the sample group to 400000 would make the result that much better. Even if some people voted several times, they will probably have done that on every differed option.
I would not think that the artistic taste of people that go to a forum differs that much from any other group. I think you underestimate the casual crowd, they have a sense of style too. It is an insult to assume they will swallow everything what is served to them by the industry. I think even someone who only rarely plays video games notices it if an art style does not fit a certain type of game.
people, start using your brains. The game looks like an advanced version of wow and is aimed squarely at the 10 million or so theoretical wow players ages 15-50.
say whatever you want, but the cartoony style has the largest potential mmo customer base in the world proven by wow.
I see no incursion into Disneyland or my little pony land or strawberry shortcake land. I have a three year old. Ive watched them all. Its a BS argument.
I've only talked to my wife and know my own likes/dislikes..For us...the cartoon graphics are a significant barrier to even want to know anything about whatever the "game" turns out to be.
Coming from a player who started out in EQ1, and has played a majority of MMOs since then, I think EQN has no artistic stylized problems.
When EQ2 and WoW were both coming out.. this same argument came up and I took the.. WoW looks like cartoony crap side. EQ2 was more realistic looking but the characters movements were not smooth, the game failed due to lack of adventure, and limited end game.
After getting my Prismatic Weapon from the high end boss encounter, I left EQ2 and tried out WoW and ended up playing it since the first year. WoW has held up better over time and the animation, combat, pvp, and adventure are more sustainable than EQ2 ever was,
The proof is in the player base.
EQN has its negatives coming out but artistic style is not the issue that I have with the game. My wish is that the characters leveled up over time instead of a horizontal progression but that is my own preference. I also enjoy holy trilogy game play but I will give SOE the benefit of the doubt and see how their game's combat plays out without basing any opinion until I try it out.
EQN with its Sandbox, Landmark, and 4 Holy Grails has more longevity than ESO right out of the gate. I love Elder Scrolls and have played every game since Arena as a kid and when watching game play from other players.. I feel a lack of quality in the game that Skyrim had. I will try it out but am not hyping myself up for ESO like I originally felt when I heard they were working on it. I felt like it came to quickly and It will not be as successful and as fun as I would have liked.
Imo the game looks good for a cartoon style. Since eqn might support oculus rift ( David made a joke about it at soe live Q & A and Jeffrey Butler was wearing it during the blackbox video) it might be better if the game is cartoon based for oculus support. In this thread https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4125 some ppl mentioned anime or cartoony styled games are amazing with the rift. I think this is the case bcz the rift still has a pretty low resolution. Even with the 1080P version games wont look as good as on your screen now since its going to strech out in the rift. This is all speculation tho.
Haha, great link. Good to discuss with someone who brings an interesting perspective to the table.
I think however, that link is more a case of deviant aesthetic. Eg Monty Python's opening credits has a little baby in a pram and some gran 'oodles & aaahs' over it, and peers in at it, promptly the baby opens it's mouth and wolfs down the hapless victim. (it = he/she).
I don't think EQ:N is at all looking to do that. It's really about ensuring players are friendly, diverse and can choose a persona avatar look that matches their mood or fantasy of taste. The avatars are much less stepping into a world, and much more choosing to be anything you want, I'd say? And that is a very attractive device for players along with finding any class and mixing it up any which way. I'd say that's the:
AESTHETIC FUNCTION of the Style > Cartoony.
PRACTICAL FUNCTION of Style > X
This is as said by some: Easier for animations, longevity, scaling better.
The take-home of Style vs Realism is: Graphics (technical standards) are not nearly as significant as people think they are. And to attract the biggest market you choose a style that the most people are comfortable with eg in this case Cartoons? Is my guess.
And the practical application of the graphics in pvp or smooth animations in combat make a massive difference on the feel and fun of the gameplay. So again it's more gameplay > graphics from what I can make out when people mention it worked for WOW. It did.
But, I'd argue as per Age Of Conan, that having decapitations and blood, warrants a VERY DIFFERENT CHOICE OF STYLE. Cartoony is x1 possible choice. Conan went for higher realism or at least demanding tech performance could have had a mixed style of realism with style of darker fantasy???
When I checked out the ESO forums people were bitching about how the game doesn't look realistic enough and how Skyrim looks better. If the most "realistic" MMO on the horizon can't satisfy the graphics whores then what can?
Seems to me there is a certain segment that wants more dark and gritty no matter how dark and gritty the game already is.
Personnaly I don't care for ESO's graphics. They seem generic and bland. Do I think it should change? Absolutely not! I can appreciate what they are trying to do with their style even though its not my cup of tea. I certainly don't want every video game to look the same. Variety is the spice of life.
Wow. There's a lot of problems with your poll there. For one, the people responding. A better measure of popularity would be players' response to the games themselves.
Wizard 101, Pirate 101, and Free Realms all have millions of players and are all active, profitable games. They rival any MMORPG running, possibly except WoW, and their art styles aren't just stylized, they are cartoonish.
The Star Wars Lego games have sold as many copies as the Elder Scrolls series, and those games are again not only stylized, but cartoonish. That doesn't even get into the Lego Harry Potter games.
Let's not forget WoW, which is not only stylized, but pretty primitive, and it's the most popular MMORPG by orders of magnitude, even just counting Western subscribers.
Maybe on this forum and others EQN's visual style is less popular, but gamers themselves seem to not be nearly as concerned about these things. The game play is going to be far more important to a game's sales than the visual style. The execution of the visual style is going to be far more important.
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I love that Owl picture up there. :-)
This +1.
Art style is not chosen randomly out of a hat. Do you think SOE just said screw it and went with cartoony based on no decision making process? Hell no. There were a lot of meetings, focus groups and conscious decision making that went into choosing this art style, and the bottom line was money.
Was it the money of the graphics focused, EQ1/EQ2, ESO fan? Probably not. Was it the money of the millions of WoW players and players of other cartoony games? Almost certainly.
JUst because you, or even all the people you game with might find this art style bad, does not mean it was a bad choice on their part. It just means you were not the intended demographic.
And also, for what it is worth, I bet a whole bunch of people on this site who have bitched to high heaven about the art style in EQN still end up playing the game if it is solid enough.
While I would have preferred a realistic art style, I like this too. My only problem with the whole thing is the fact that it is Free to play...which in my experience lends itself to less than wonderful communities, but you know what? I cannot change that anymore than I can change the art style, so I am going to try not to lose sleep over it and drive on with my life. =-)
Was it the money of the graphics focused, EQ1/EQ2, ESO fan? Probably not. Was it the money of the millions of WoW players and players of other cartoony games? Almost certainly.
i dont deny this
I do prefer realistic graphics like EQ2 but the EQN graphics are acceptable to me
Congratz, you successfully proved that people like cake with 0 calories. Gritty realistic styles are not avoided for preference reasons, it is due to technical and artistic limitations and thus a non-issue to keep crying about constantly.
This tastes so good but it is bad for me. Accept the good with the bad instead of throwing a million fits.
Wow. There's a lot of problems with your poll there. For one, the people responding. A better measure of popularity would be players' response to the games themselves.
Wizard 101, Pirate 101, and Free Realms all have millions of players and are all active, profitable games. They rival any MMORPG running, possibly except WoW, and their art styles aren't just stylized, they are cartoonish.
The Star Wars Lego games have sold as many copies as the Elder Scrolls series, and those games are again not only stylized, but cartoonish. That doesn't even get into the Lego Harry Potter games.
Let's not forget WoW, which is not only stylized, but pretty primitive, and it's the most popular MMORPG by orders of magnitude, even just counting Western subscribers.
Maybe on this forum and others EQN's visual style is less popular, but gamers themselves seem to not be nearly as concerned about these things. The game play is going to be far more important to a game's sales than the visual style. The execution of the visual style is going to be far more important.
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I love that Owl picture up there. :-)
This +1.
Art style is not chosen randomly out of a hat. Do you think SOE just said screw it and went with cartoony based on no decision making process? Hell no. There were a lot of meetings, focus groups and conscious decision making that went into choosing this art style, and the bottom line was money.
Was it the money of the graphics focused, EQ1/EQ2, ESO fan? Probably not. Was it the money of the millions of WoW players and players of other cartoony games? Almost certainly.
JUst because you, or even all the people you game with might find this art style bad, does not mean it was a bad choice on their part. It just means you were not the intended demographic.
And also, for what it is worth, I bet a whole bunch of people on this site who have bitched to high heaven about the art style in EQN still end up playing the game if it is solid enough.
While I would have preferred a realistic art style, I like this too. My only problem with the whole thing is the fact that it is Free to play...which in my experience lends itself to less than wonderful communities, but you know what? I cannot change that anymore than I can change the art style, so I am going to try not to lose sleep over it and drive on with my life. =-)
Yeap.. this, and there are actually a few practical reasons to go with more stylized graphic:
- SOEmote. They really want to advance it, want to build up on it.. and you really can do such expressions with a more stylized game. EQN is most probably the first game, which will take full advantage of SOEmote. And it can be a lot more than just a gimmick, because even Mobs will use Expressions.
- Performance. In any MMO, and especially when you don't want to limit your players extremely, like Age of Conan with there 99 players per zone limit, performance is a issue. If you want to have a more seamless world you will have to scale down your player characters.. a lot. But usually everyone tries to go somewhat of a middleway, so that it looks not completely shabby, but allows at least a decent numbers of characters on the screen or in a certain area.
And think what you want, but it is a lot easier with stylized artistic look, to look better with less performance constraints as it is with realistic artistic look. There is a reason, why especially single player game, where you can limit characters you go with more realistic look and do spend a lot on resources on characters. Even in all Eldar Scroll games you don't see a few hundred avatars, and in ESO they are now able to show 200 characters on screen. 200 characters is not bad, but is it enough for a MMO?
Furthermore, with the optin to Voxel, and full destructable, you do have most probably even more performance contraints, because all this destruction will you cost some performance.. so you are even more under pressure to be economical.
- for every game it is important that the terrain, the environment and characters fit together. It is a lot more ugly for most players to have super realistic characters in a completely unrealistic environment. and again, with the voxel engine, and all it advantages you do have not really (at least up to now), to go with super realistic terrain and environment.
With all that said, to go with a stylized artistic look was more or less the best option for EQN. But all that doesn't mean that i can't look gritty and dark.. because you can have that with a stylized look, too.
But as we don't have seen everything we don't know how the overall look will be, and how dark and gritty some areas and/or characters/mobs will be.
I am personally don't care a lot about art style or graphic, as long as it looks somewhat pleasing, and that the gameplay, the game in itself is good enough.. i have played minecraft, i have played dwarfen fortress, and non of them because their graphics or artistic style.
And furthermore, if i have to compare EQN with TESO, just from a artistic look and graphic, i really could not say that TESO looks better, but i wouldn't they EQN looks better.. Both look a little bit different, and for a final judgement i would have to play both. But finally, the graphical look will not decide, which of those games will be more successful or more fun to play.
I think the problem with those surveys is that the EQ Next survey was posted in areas that would draw a wider net of people but the Elder Scrolls Online forum was posted on their very own forums.
who would be hanging around a game's forums long before the release? The die hard fans of course.
Whereas the EQ Next poll might get people who have a passing interest in the game but not so "die hard".
Essentially, are you polling the same demographic of people within their respective games?
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This is a follow up thread to the one about the recant survey that was done about EQNs art style.: (link)
I was recently told, that:
"... People in the MMO community, especially this forum, never agree on anything. You could carry this same scenario over to the ESO forum, where you hear people complaining about the exact opposite thing. ... Your argument assumes there is some magic solution that creates a 90% or 100% satisfaction rate and I just do not see that, and have not seen that, in the MMO community. In todays climate just topping 50% in your favor is a boon. ..."
I thought this can be tested. So I made a poll on ESO forum so see what the people over there think about ESOs art style: (link)
As you see there is great consent on the realistic and gritty look of ESOs art style. If you ignore the people that wanted waffles (This includes myself, as I didn't what to influence the poll.) you see, that:
88,9% (88 people) like the art style as it is or wanted it to be even grittier.
8,1% (8 people) wanted it to be more stylized and cartoony
3% (3 people) are on the fence or don't care.
So there apparently is a "magic solution" that makes 88,9% of the users in this forum agree upon some art style.
If you compare this to the survey: (link) you see that in the last question:
47% (436 people) like the art style as it is.
40% (385 people) want it to be grittier or more realistic.
13% (132 people) dislike the art style for other reasons.
0% (2 people) want it to be even more cartoony.
You have to consider that there where 955 people involved in this survey until now. This is quite a large sample.
The survey correspondents quite well to a poll we had on this forum a while ago: (link)
41,8% (162 people) liked the art style.
37,1% (144 people) didn't like it.
21,1% (82 people) where undecided or did not care.
- - -
The art style is an important feature. I agree that gameplay is more important then graphics, but that does not mean that graphics don't matter. The art style sets the mood for the rest of the game, especially for the storytelling. You can't have serious storytelling with Mario and Princess Peach.
If you ask me, I believe that the dissent is actually even higher. I think many people only voted in favour of the art style because they don't what this discussion to overshadow an otherwise great game. I don't think there are that many people that honestly think, that this Kerra was what EQN needed.
Just look at the very first post in the poll about the art style of EQN:
"The amount of crying farce towards the graphics is hilarious, the game has some really ground breaking ideas while still inside the EQ universe. It was never meant to be an exact copy of the original EQ or EQ2 but instead to be a brand new game. ...
Why should EQ Next be thrown out? It is a new take on the same genre, albeit with different graphics. So much hate over something that actually looks and sounds like something fun to play."
Note that he doesn't even say the art style was good or that it suits EQN. He wants people to look beyond the fact that the art style is "different" and to remember it is still "something fun to play" He just doesn't like the whole discussion because he thinks it could damage the game. I don't want to say that wanting to defend EQN is not a noble cause, but to say it is beyond any doubts is not helping anyone.
Nobody wants to talk down EQN. I am the first to defend its awesome features, the Voxelfarm engine, StoryBricks and above all the attempt to revive the sandbox mmo and bring it to the mainstream, but as a loyal fan you have so spell things out that you believe to be wrong about the game you like.
I would like to you to tell me one thing about the section of your post that I highlighted, and that is: Why not? Because YOU deem it so?
Some of the most compelling stories I have ever read involved gnomes and elves and dragons. Some of the most engrossing movies I have ever watched were CARTOONS.
If those can tell a serious story then why can't "cartoony" graphics? These threads are not only a dime a dozen it seems but they are just boring and old. You don't like a certain thing thats great, why do we all need to hear about it? Why not just reply to one of the hundred other clone threads that are floating around out there?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
As i said, it was obvious that EQN Devs managed to alienate half of their player base right from the start with the art style choice.
There is no suprise though, that for another time the arguments you read in a thread about graphics from the fanboys are "The gameplay...", "Cartoony art-style is so popular...", "It couldn't be done..." which are either false or just not serious arguments.
Well i wouldn't expect a different opinion from people who are so used to play games designed for kids and by kids i mean both physicaly and mentaly.
Enjoy the little to none immersion cartoony graphics offer. As for the rest who waited for a true and mature sandbox, it's obviously a huge lost chance.
If SOE/EQ fans hadn't been bashing WOW for 10 years over this very same cartoony style, it would be easier to believe that the new found acceptance for it is legit.
I like what I know about EQN... a lot... despite the cartoony art style. The best I can say about it is that I'm going to try to ignore it, but I still won't like it. And no, more visible SOEmote facial expressions is not a good enough reason for the IP to do a 180 degree visual style turn.
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If SOE/EQ fans hadn't been bashing WOW for 10 years over this very same cartoony style, it would be easier to believe that the new found acceptance for it is legit.
I like what I know about EQN... a lot... despite the cartoony art style. The best I can say about it is that I'm going to try to ignore it, but I still won't like it. And no, more visible SOEmote facial expressions is not a good enough reason for the IP to do a 180 degree visual style turn.
Luckily i was never a SOE/EQ fan, more the contrary, and i bashed WoW a lot, but never because of their cartoony style.
I bashed WoW because it was a fucking gear depentent peace of shit, a hamsterwheel per excellence.. permantly more power, more level, more powerful gear.. well as i came from DAoC and hated ToA(latest expansion, which ruined for me DAoC) with a passion, i met the exactly same shit in WoW once again, and even far worst.. and the effect all this on pvp. It made pvp unplayable, it made all the pvp gear(in the beginning, first year) more to a joke, as it couldn't stand against the raid epic gear. And the complete pvp concept was a joke. Basicly you had to run month of pve, to be somewhat competive in pvp. Basicly you would be forced to raid, forced to farm, forced to do boring, reptive shit, to barely enjoy the game. And the early rank pvp rank system made it not really better.. so i quit.. and never looked back.
I have to commit, i loved the very detailed world with lot of little jokes around every corner, and part of it could be the graphics.. i am not a fan of that graphic style, but i didn't mind. With other words the journey to max level was even somewhat fun, although the quests become boring, too.
But the real problem started after it.. more or less the same as with EQ.. everyone copied that shit, and we got a lot of hamsterwheels for the next shiny peace with boring, repitive quests all over the place..
So if you ask me.. EQN is like fresh air, with stopping all that, what i hated from EQ or WoW.. because they are more or less the same.. hell.. i even called WoW a f*** EQ clone 8 years ago. But i do understand that all the people liking all that progression grind, all the EQ and WoW lover will not like it that much. But well.. as i did not like EQ and WoW as old UO lover. Well.. i guess poetic justice.
Haha, great link. Good to discuss with someone who brings an interesting perspective to the table.
I think however, that link is more a case of deviant aesthetic. Eg Monty Python's opening credits has a little baby in a pram and some gran 'oodles & aaahs' over it, and peers in at it, promptly the baby opens it's mouth and wolfs down the hapless victim. (it = he/she).
I don't think EQ:N is at all looking to do that. It's really about ensuring players are friendly, diverse and can choose a persona avatar look that matches their mood or fantasy of taste. The avatars are much less stepping into a world, and much more choosing to be anything you want, I'd say? And that is a very attractive device for players along with finding any class and mixing it up any which way. I'd say that's the:
AESTHETIC FUNCTION of the Style > Cartoony.
PRACTICAL FUNCTION of Style > X
This is as said by some: Easier for animations, longevity, scaling better.
The take-home of Style vs Realism is: Graphics (technical standards) are not nearly as significant as people think they are. And to attract the biggest market you choose a style that the most people are comfortable with eg in this case Cartoons? Is my guess.
And the practical application of the graphics in pvp or smooth animations in combat make a massive difference on the feel and fun of the gameplay. So again it's more gameplay > graphics from what I can make out when people mention it worked for WOW. It did.
But, I'd argue as per Age Of Conan, that having decapitations and blood, warrants a VERY DIFFERENT CHOICE OF STYLE. Cartoony is x1 possible choice. Conan went for higher realism or at least demanding tech performance could have had a mixed style of realism with style of darker fantasy???
Eg
Slaine:
Slampig perhaps stated more directly the point of what I said, though I might phrase it differently.
I'll agree they likely chose the style for EQ:N based more on the flexibility the style offered than anything else.
Mine was a response mostly to the notion that realism gives greater grit or allows for a darker narrative, which was rather why I had the like to the TVTropes crapsaccharine page. It's a counterpoint noting that an overly fluffy world, or even an overly cartoon and stylized one, can carry quite a punch when they want to toss a moody or dark moment into the mix.
In some regards it's arguably got more heft than if you play to a gritty world setting, as it possesses a stark contrast to the other elements of the setting rather than getting washed out.
Alternatively, it's also worth noting that the concept of establishing any given atmosphere really does not require a specific technique and can benefit from varying degrees of stylization.
For example, Fairytale Fights mixes cutesy with gore to make a relatively psychotic medium of crazy fairytale people chopping one another into bits.
Nightmare Before Christmas had a completely stylized design that catered to a dark atmosphere without being simply scary or angry.
However, games utilizing a style in the game general feel as Nightmare, such as Don't Starve, can still provide a tense atmosphere to the game as you scuttle about trying to survive.
Limbo would be another example of a game lauded for it's atmosphere, and it too was a pretty dramatically stylized game.
Cycling back, I do understand and agree with you that EQ:N is not aiming for being a dark or moody world, more so one that's open to choice and flexibility. My point in my own diatribe is in response to several previous posts as well as line from the original post, noting that one should not write off the art style of EQ:N as it's flexibility can allow for some pretty stark and dramatic moments as much as it is capable of making a happy tone.
Perhaps a decent example comes from WoW for this with Darkshire. A large section of the game is dominated by ranges of colors and pretty cartoony mild design. When that same design is utilized to create a dark and moody atmosphere, they are granted the ability to put a bit of emphasis on the expressive details of the setting and that goes a long way in giving it a mood that contrasts highly to the otherwise more bright and docile environments.
EQ:N should be perfectly capable of offering up such places and experiences not in spite of, but alongside and partially because of the graphics chosen. As it ties to the notion of crapsaccharine, it's has the hidden potential as well to sucker punch people with such moments.
EDIT: To clarify I'm not particularly disagreeing with you, just clarifying what I had meant as my first post was kinda short on detail.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
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Yet I'm sure you'll still be be here weighing in on the quality of the game regardless...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So glad that I haven't become so disgruntled that I no longer find enjoyment in gaming, nor spend time criticizing something I have no intent on playing. Makes me glad there are still interesting games on the horizon (EQN) that keep me going. Assuming you'll never be pleased with any game, you're loss I guess.
I myself wont even make the account to DL the game. They will not take my account and add it to the others so they can tell their board of trusties that the game is doing well because of all the accounts that were made. Wont be a statistic for their justification in why they made EQN the way they did.
i don't even think that is true, i think ESO will still have more players honestly. not because its a better game, but because ES is a much more popular IP and is guaranteed to be on both of the consoles.
not only that but ESO is actually catering to their fans and EQN is not. ESO has a look and feel similar to an ES game, EQN does not.
that is a huge factor many people here seem to not understand.
I'll just state this.
Seriousness, grit, darkness, drama, fantasy, realism, emotion, expression, etc.
All pretty subjective, and not at all exclusive to a specific art style. Look to execution.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsaccharineWorld
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Honestly the more I hear people complain that EQN isn't in the spirit, likeness, vein, etc. as EQ the cheaper they make EQ sound. EQ was about it's graphics and tab targeting, right? Any meaningful comparisons between the two could not possibly be known yet. Molding an MMO to the "look and feel" of it's previous iterations does not mean it will be a good or successful MMO.
I wish ESO the best of luck when it launches and I'll probably play it myself. It will be highly popular to begin with, as with most MMOs, but I guarantee you it's lasting success will not be based on it's similarly to the ES franchise. The same will be said for EQN. We all know by now that lasting success for an MMO has to do with how much content there is for players long term and how fun the content is.
Please calm down. It seems I really hit a nerve here.
This is actually not my survey. Someone from the Reddit forum did it. He also posted it here and probably also on other sites too, so he did his best to reach as many different people as possible. He reaches all the people who ever visit a forum. They don’t even have to post there. What exactly do you mean by “on the web”? I don’t know how something can be more on the web then this.
These people are more diverse then you think. I admit that this is a quite crude method. It won’t produce exact results, but it certainly shows a trend.
This forum is actually not as bad as you think. As you see in the results, no one came here to talk down ESOs graphics. Everyone seems very much pleased with it. People don’t complain without a reason.
As I said it is very hard to reach people that won’t come to your survey on their own. You would need banner ads ore something like this to reach them. It is also hard to say beforehand who might be interested in buying a game, so you will always have problems finding the right sample group no matter what methods you use.
It is actually not that important to have a giant sample group to come to a significant result. You just have to ask enough people to make sure that no single opinion is overrepresented by chance. So if you just ask 10 people they can by chance all share the same opinion, but that cant happen with 1000 people. It is a fallacy to think that enlarging the sample group to 400000 would make the result that much better. Even if some people voted several times, they will probably have done that on every differed option.
I would not think that the artistic taste of people that go to a forum differs that much from any other group. I think you underestimate the casual crowd, they have a sense of style too. It is an insult to assume they will swallow everything what is served to them by the industry. I think even someone who only rarely plays video games notices it if an art style does not fit a certain type of game.
people, start using your brains. The game looks like an advanced version of wow and is aimed squarely at the 10 million or so theoretical wow players ages 15-50.
say whatever you want, but the cartoony style has the largest potential mmo customer base in the world proven by wow.
I see no incursion into Disneyland or my little pony land or strawberry shortcake land. I have a three year old. Ive watched them all. Its a BS argument.
Coming from a player who started out in EQ1, and has played a majority of MMOs since then, I think EQN has no artistic stylized problems.
When EQ2 and WoW were both coming out.. this same argument came up and I took the.. WoW looks like cartoony crap side. EQ2 was more realistic looking but the characters movements were not smooth, the game failed due to lack of adventure, and limited end game.
After getting my Prismatic Weapon from the high end boss encounter, I left EQ2 and tried out WoW and ended up playing it since the first year. WoW has held up better over time and the animation, combat, pvp, and adventure are more sustainable than EQ2 ever was,
The proof is in the player base.
EQN has its negatives coming out but artistic style is not the issue that I have with the game. My wish is that the characters leveled up over time instead of a horizontal progression but that is my own preference. I also enjoy holy trilogy game play but I will give SOE the benefit of the doubt and see how their game's combat plays out without basing any opinion until I try it out.
EQN with its Sandbox, Landmark, and 4 Holy Grails has more longevity than ESO right out of the gate. I love Elder Scrolls and have played every game since Arena as a kid and when watching game play from other players.. I feel a lack of quality in the game that Skyrim had. I will try it out but am not hyping myself up for ESO like I originally felt when I heard they were working on it. I felt like it came to quickly and It will not be as successful and as fun as I would have liked.
Imo the game looks good for a cartoon style. Since eqn might support oculus rift ( David made a joke about it at soe live Q & A and Jeffrey Butler was wearing it during the blackbox video) it might be better if the game is cartoon based for oculus support. In this thread https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4125 some ppl mentioned anime or cartoony styled games are amazing with the rift. I think this is the case bcz the rift still has a pretty low resolution. Even with the 1080P version games wont look as good as on your screen now since its going to strech out in the rift. This is all speculation tho.
Haha, great link. Good to discuss with someone who brings an interesting perspective to the table.
I think however, that link is more a case of deviant aesthetic. Eg Monty Python's opening credits has a little baby in a pram and some gran 'oodles & aaahs' over it, and peers in at it, promptly the baby opens it's mouth and wolfs down the hapless victim. (it = he/she).
I don't think EQ:N is at all looking to do that. It's really about ensuring players are friendly, diverse and can choose a persona avatar look that matches their mood or fantasy of taste. The avatars are much less stepping into a world, and much more choosing to be anything you want, I'd say? And that is a very attractive device for players along with finding any class and mixing it up any which way. I'd say that's the:
AESTHETIC FUNCTION of the Style > Cartoony.
PRACTICAL FUNCTION of Style > X
This is as said by some: Easier for animations, longevity, scaling better.
The take-home of Style vs Realism is: Graphics (technical standards) are not nearly as significant as people think they are. And to attract the biggest market you choose a style that the most people are comfortable with eg in this case Cartoons? Is my guess.
And the practical application of the graphics in pvp or smooth animations in combat make a massive difference on the feel and fun of the gameplay. So again it's more gameplay > graphics from what I can make out when people mention it worked for WOW. It did.
But, I'd argue as per Age Of Conan, that having decapitations and blood, warrants a VERY DIFFERENT CHOICE OF STYLE. Cartoony is x1 possible choice. Conan went for higher realism or at least demanding tech performance could have had a mixed style of realism with style of darker fantasy???
Eg
Slaine:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Seems to me there is a certain segment that wants more dark and gritty no matter how dark and gritty the game already is.
Personnaly I don't care for ESO's graphics. They seem generic and bland. Do I think it should change? Absolutely not! I can appreciate what they are trying to do with their style even though its not my cup of tea. I certainly don't want every video game to look the same. Variety is the spice of life.
Hey Age of Conan, how is that realistic graphics style doing for ya?
LotRO, you don't seem very realistic anymore.
EQ1, lol
This +1.
Art style is not chosen randomly out of a hat. Do you think SOE just said screw it and went with cartoony based on no decision making process? Hell no. There were a lot of meetings, focus groups and conscious decision making that went into choosing this art style, and the bottom line was money.
Was it the money of the graphics focused, EQ1/EQ2, ESO fan? Probably not. Was it the money of the millions of WoW players and players of other cartoony games? Almost certainly.
JUst because you, or even all the people you game with might find this art style bad, does not mean it was a bad choice on their part. It just means you were not the intended demographic.
And also, for what it is worth, I bet a whole bunch of people on this site who have bitched to high heaven about the art style in EQN still end up playing the game if it is solid enough.
While I would have preferred a realistic art style, I like this too. My only problem with the whole thing is the fact that it is Free to play...which in my experience lends itself to less than wonderful communities, but you know what? I cannot change that anymore than I can change the art style, so I am going to try not to lose sleep over it and drive on with my life. =-)
i dont deny this
I do prefer realistic graphics like EQ2 but the EQN graphics are acceptable to me
EQ2 fan sites
Congratz, you successfully proved that people like cake with 0 calories. Gritty realistic styles are not avoided for preference reasons, it is due to technical and artistic limitations and thus a non-issue to keep crying about constantly.
This tastes so good but it is bad for me. Accept the good with the bad instead of throwing a million fits.
Yeap.. this, and there are actually a few practical reasons to go with more stylized graphic:
- SOEmote. They really want to advance it, want to build up on it.. and you really can do such expressions with a more stylized game. EQN is most probably the first game, which will take full advantage of SOEmote. And it can be a lot more than just a gimmick, because even Mobs will use Expressions.
- Performance. In any MMO, and especially when you don't want to limit your players extremely, like Age of Conan with there 99 players per zone limit, performance is a issue. If you want to have a more seamless world you will have to scale down your player characters.. a lot. But usually everyone tries to go somewhat of a middleway, so that it looks not completely shabby, but allows at least a decent numbers of characters on the screen or in a certain area.
And think what you want, but it is a lot easier with stylized artistic look, to look better with less performance constraints as it is with realistic artistic look. There is a reason, why especially single player game, where you can limit characters you go with more realistic look and do spend a lot on resources on characters. Even in all Eldar Scroll games you don't see a few hundred avatars, and in ESO they are now able to show 200 characters on screen. 200 characters is not bad, but is it enough for a MMO?
Furthermore, with the optin to Voxel, and full destructable, you do have most probably even more performance contraints, because all this destruction will you cost some performance.. so you are even more under pressure to be economical.
- for every game it is important that the terrain, the environment and characters fit together. It is a lot more ugly for most players to have super realistic characters in a completely unrealistic environment. and again, with the voxel engine, and all it advantages you do have not really (at least up to now), to go with super realistic terrain and environment.
With all that said, to go with a stylized artistic look was more or less the best option for EQN. But all that doesn't mean that i can't look gritty and dark.. because you can have that with a stylized look, too.
But as we don't have seen everything we don't know how the overall look will be, and how dark and gritty some areas and/or characters/mobs will be.
I am personally don't care a lot about art style or graphic, as long as it looks somewhat pleasing, and that the gameplay, the game in itself is good enough.. i have played minecraft, i have played dwarfen fortress, and non of them because their graphics or artistic style.
And furthermore, if i have to compare EQN with TESO, just from a artistic look and graphic, i really could not say that TESO looks better, but i wouldn't they EQN looks better.. Both look a little bit different, and for a final judgement i would have to play both. But finally, the graphical look will not decide, which of those games will be more successful or more fun to play.
I think the problem with those surveys is that the EQ Next survey was posted in areas that would draw a wider net of people but the Elder Scrolls Online forum was posted on their very own forums.
who would be hanging around a game's forums long before the release? The die hard fans of course.
Whereas the EQ Next poll might get people who have a passing interest in the game but not so "die hard".
Essentially, are you polling the same demographic of people within their respective games?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I would like to you to tell me one thing about the section of your post that I highlighted, and that is: Why not? Because YOU deem it so?
Some of the most compelling stories I have ever read involved gnomes and elves and dragons. Some of the most engrossing movies I have ever watched were CARTOONS.
If those can tell a serious story then why can't "cartoony" graphics? These threads are not only a dime a dozen it seems but they are just boring and old. You don't like a certain thing thats great, why do we all need to hear about it? Why not just reply to one of the hundred other clone threads that are floating around out there?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
As i said, it was obvious that EQN Devs managed to alienate half of their player base right from the start with the art style choice.
There is no suprise though, that for another time the arguments you read in a thread about graphics from the fanboys are "The gameplay...", "Cartoony art-style is so popular...", "It couldn't be done..." which are either false or just not serious arguments.
Well i wouldn't expect a different opinion from people who are so used to play games designed for kids and by kids i mean both physicaly and mentaly.
Enjoy the little to none immersion cartoony graphics offer. As for the rest who waited for a true and mature sandbox, it's obviously a huge lost chance.
If SOE/EQ fans hadn't been bashing WOW for 10 years over this very same cartoony style, it would be easier to believe that the new found acceptance for it is legit.
I like what I know about EQN... a lot... despite the cartoony art style. The best I can say about it is that I'm going to try to ignore it, but I still won't like it. And no, more visible SOEmote facial expressions is not a good enough reason for the IP to do a 180 degree visual style turn.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Luckily i was never a SOE/EQ fan, more the contrary, and i bashed WoW a lot, but never because of their cartoony style.
I bashed WoW because it was a fucking gear depentent peace of shit, a hamsterwheel per excellence.. permantly more power, more level, more powerful gear.. well as i came from DAoC and hated ToA(latest expansion, which ruined for me DAoC) with a passion, i met the exactly same shit in WoW once again, and even far worst.. and the effect all this on pvp. It made pvp unplayable, it made all the pvp gear(in the beginning, first year) more to a joke, as it couldn't stand against the raid epic gear. And the complete pvp concept was a joke. Basicly you had to run month of pve, to be somewhat competive in pvp. Basicly you would be forced to raid, forced to farm, forced to do boring, reptive shit, to barely enjoy the game. And the early rank pvp rank system made it not really better.. so i quit.. and never looked back.
I have to commit, i loved the very detailed world with lot of little jokes around every corner, and part of it could be the graphics.. i am not a fan of that graphic style, but i didn't mind. With other words the journey to max level was even somewhat fun, although the quests become boring, too.
But the real problem started after it.. more or less the same as with EQ.. everyone copied that shit, and we got a lot of hamsterwheels for the next shiny peace with boring, repitive quests all over the place..
So if you ask me.. EQN is like fresh air, with stopping all that, what i hated from EQ or WoW.. because they are more or less the same.. hell.. i even called WoW a f*** EQ clone 8 years ago. But i do understand that all the people liking all that progression grind, all the EQ and WoW lover will not like it that much. But well.. as i did not like EQ and WoW as old UO lover. Well.. i guess poetic justice.
Slampig perhaps stated more directly the point of what I said, though I might phrase it differently.
I'll agree they likely chose the style for EQ:N based more on the flexibility the style offered than anything else.
Mine was a response mostly to the notion that realism gives greater grit or allows for a darker narrative, which was rather why I had the like to the TVTropes crapsaccharine page. It's a counterpoint noting that an overly fluffy world, or even an overly cartoon and stylized one, can carry quite a punch when they want to toss a moody or dark moment into the mix.
In some regards it's arguably got more heft than if you play to a gritty world setting, as it possesses a stark contrast to the other elements of the setting rather than getting washed out.
Alternatively, it's also worth noting that the concept of establishing any given atmosphere really does not require a specific technique and can benefit from varying degrees of stylization.
For example, Fairytale Fights mixes cutesy with gore to make a relatively psychotic medium of crazy fairytale people chopping one another into bits.
Nightmare Before Christmas had a completely stylized design that catered to a dark atmosphere without being simply scary or angry.
However, games utilizing a style in the game general feel as Nightmare, such as Don't Starve, can still provide a tense atmosphere to the game as you scuttle about trying to survive.
Limbo would be another example of a game lauded for it's atmosphere, and it too was a pretty dramatically stylized game.
Cycling back, I do understand and agree with you that EQ:N is not aiming for being a dark or moody world, more so one that's open to choice and flexibility. My point in my own diatribe is in response to several previous posts as well as line from the original post, noting that one should not write off the art style of EQ:N as it's flexibility can allow for some pretty stark and dramatic moments as much as it is capable of making a happy tone.
Perhaps a decent example comes from WoW for this with Darkshire. A large section of the game is dominated by ranges of colors and pretty cartoony mild design. When that same design is utilized to create a dark and moody atmosphere, they are granted the ability to put a bit of emphasis on the expressive details of the setting and that goes a long way in giving it a mood that contrasts highly to the otherwise more bright and docile environments.
EQ:N should be perfectly capable of offering up such places and experiences not in spite of, but alongside and partially because of the graphics chosen. As it ties to the notion of crapsaccharine, it's has the hidden potential as well to sucker punch people with such moments.
EDIT: To clarify I'm not particularly disagreeing with you, just clarifying what I had meant as my first post was kinda short on detail.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin