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FFXIV player attrition: it is going to be bad.

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Comments

  • KanethKaneth Member RarePosts: 2,286
    Originally posted by Ginaz

    The game is good but I think a lot of people won't be re-subbing right away and will wait to see if SE can get their shit together.  There's lots of fun to be had in game and more is promised but they need to get their infrastructure and customer support sorted out.  For me, the game itself is an 8/10.  Everything else is a 3 or 4. 

    Also...Why the hell can you not right click on the gold spammers name in the chat window and hit an ignore function instead of the convoluted way you have to do it?  Theres more examples like that where things are more complicated than they need to be.

    Agreed. Many in my Free Company put in for 3 month subs, so we'll have a group of about 50 for the next 90 days, but after that I'm wondering how many are going to stick around, but that's on SE to deliver.

    The gold spammer issue I completely agree with too. Blacklists are far too small, 31 total iirc, and I am about 75% full right now. I've turned off Shout and Yell in my chat, so that's helped quite a bit. I'm sure we'll have to endure with this a little bit before SE figures out a suitable fix. Although, they really need to add in auto squelch for people spamming in chats.

    All in all though, I've run into very little problems. Even when the login issues were affecting most, I was pretty much unaffected since I play weird non-peak hours for the most part.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Originally posted by faiyo
    Originally posted by Torcip
    SE has already way exceeded their expectations with this MMO, all they intended to have was a small and dedicated group of players just like with FFXI.  They probably know that a lot of people will leave and don't really care, they don't have publishers or outside investors to answer to for FFXIV and most likely already made their money back on what they spent on FFXIV.

    No offense but.. this is a bit delusional?

    If they wanted a small and dedicated group of players they probably wouldn't have spent time and money revamping this game.

    No, it's not delusional. He's repeating what SE themselves have said.

  • psiicpsiic Member RarePosts: 1,642
    Originally posted by Tissmogi
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

    Over the last 6-7 years the MMO community has witnessed some very successful initial launches.

    Age of Conan

    WAR

    SWTOR

    Each of them crashed and burned very fast.   They shared many of the same qualities, namely:

    1)  Seriously easy leveling at the start;

    Every MMO has this

    2)  Major leveling and end-game nerfs soon after;

    I fail to see any nerfs, if you refer to the adjustments of the dungeons to prevent speed runs, then that is not a nerf but a needed change.

    3)  Standard theme park designs; 

    applies to all recent mmos and ffxiv has non standard design too.

    4) Initial game queue issues; and

    every mmo had these

    5) Major bugs that were exploited early.

    Name just one exploit with link and proof please.

    FFXIV shares all of these "symptoms".  FATEs are so ridiculously OP that many casual players are in their 30s and 40s and anyone remotely hardcore is already 50.   Amdapor Keep just received a massive nerf of the exponential variety.  Everyone already knows about the initial login headaches.  Endgame dungeon exploits abound.  

    The attrition rates of the games above were approximately 90% in the first 6 months.  FFXIV does not look to be in better shape.

     

    The game will have a healthy following just like FFXI has. I prefer a small but dedicated and mature community to the cesspool of something like WoW any day!

    Problem is, FFXIV is not about what you prefer.

    It is about what SE and the investors demanded when the contract was signed to provide the investment dollars in remaking a failed game and trying to relaunch it.

    Promises were made, and milestones set in contract. 

    At the moment those milestones are surpassed, but a niche game is not what SE or the investors were promised.

    FFXIV was already a niche game before the remake.

     

    Oh and to the morons that are buying SE spin about no investors and only wanting a small game.

    I would like to point out SE is a publicly  traded company.

    That means a board of INVESTORS make the decisions, not, repeat NOT a game designer, or spin doctor.

    People lost their jobs over the first fail of this game, trust me if there is a 2nd fail, the parking lot pink slip meeting will be of epic proportions.

     

    To be fair here I will state that as of the end of day weekend sell off, SE is trading at a 10 year high of 15.58 per share. 

    As crappy as SE has traded over the past 10 years, that really is a decent number.

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by echolynfan

     

    I played SWTOR and KNEW after level 20 that the game sucked...I didn't have to hit the end. There is already a strong sense of community and a boatload of stuff to do. I've only just hit 30 on my Conjuror and am now working on my job class of Arcanist...I'm at level 9. There is so much to do with crafting I don't know where to even begin.

    I do play about 8 hours a day but I choose to sleep also :)

    What is all this stuff to do? When I keep hearing that by your third job grind you have little option but to grind fates, I have a hard time believing a game has a decent amount of content in place.

    So many mixed messages one side saying there's tons to do, while another says there is not, not to mention the double standard that's showing up in regard to this game compared to others that were mentioned by the OP. As this game does share a lot in common with those titles in terms of launch content, world size,  or lack there of, invisible walls, WOWification, gear grinds etc.... These "issues" were exactly what earned those games the reputation they got at their launch. Yet in this case all of that stuff is just fine and dandy.

    I gave the game a shot and stated it's enjoyable in my impressions of it, but my concern has always been, what sets it apart enough that will allow it to overcome the dreaded three month exodus all others like it have seen since around 06-07.

    There needs to be a game where it takes a freaking year to level cap for those "hardcore we never sleep" players. Oh..but then it would be too much of a grind game. Fates are not the ONLY things to do in FF ARR...combat is not the only thing to do in this game - and a LOT of us players like doing stuff other than combat. 

    There is NO FREAKING WAY that anyone can say they've "finished the game" if all you did was fate grind a character up to 50 and if that's all you did there's no way any MMO coming out today will satisfy you. I have yet to see anyone on this forum name ANY MMO that is perfect and everything they've ever wanted.

    The game is fun...polished and has a very strong foundation for the future. I think all of these "experts" need to pool their resources together and show everyone how it's done - make your own MMO.

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • AyulinAyulin Member Posts: 334
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx

    Notice how fans keep mentioning... game is new, yes it is incomplete..more is still to come..reminds you of any other MMOS? yes every other themepark MMO in past which fell flat on its face after couple of months.

    That's because they make another common argument that goes hand-in-hand with that...

    "Well, this game is different, because.... -insert idealistic but ultimately moot reasons here-, so it won't go the same as those games did".

    It's people trying to convince themselves more than anything.

    To release a P2P MMO in 2013 with similar shortcomings and mistakes that MMOS have been making for past 5+ years doesn't give confidence to people. This is why P2P model can not sustain itself because devs just don't get it and yet all blame falls on the players.

    To release a P2P MMO at any time with similar shortcomings. The year really has nothing to do with it. If your game's content can be almost entirely completed within the first 30 days, there's not going to be much reason for people to stick around and sub numbers are going to fall as folks move on to other games.

    Yes there will be some who will stick to the game but there were some who also kept playing 1.0 which was an utter embarassement so that doesn't say much.

    Yep, it'll level off at a population that could likely be fine for SE. They are in the position of not having a Publisher dictating what they have to pay back and in what time-frame. They may even be able to remain P2P and not have to go the F2P route. However, when it's your company's unique position of being its own Publisher allowing the game to stay the course, rather than the merits of the game itself, that's not exactly something to brag about. That would be the game remaining P2P despite its overall quality, not because of it.

    It would be like a complete slacker getting to keep their job only because their brother is the owner, and not because of their work performance.

     

  • amber-ramber-r Member Posts: 323
    Its enough and it's fun to you.  Apparantely that's not enough for a lot of other people.
  • icculus2112icculus2112 Member Posts: 105
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

    Over the last 6-7 years the MMO community has witnessed some very successful initial launches.

    Age of Conan

    WAR

    SWTOR

    Each of them crashed and burned very fast.   They shared many of the same qualities, namely:

    1)  Seriously easy leveling at the start;

    2)  Major leveling and end-game nerfs soon after;

    3)  Standard theme park designs; 

    4) Initial game queue issues; and

    5) Major bugs that were exploited early.

    FFXIV shares all of these "symptoms".  FATEs are so ridiculously OP that many casual players are in their 30s and 40s and anyone remotely hardcore is already 50.   Amdapor Keep just received a massive nerf of the exponential variety.  Everyone already knows about the initial login headaches.  Endgame dungeon exploits abound.  

    The attrition rates of the games above were approximately 90% in the first 6 months.  FFXIV does not look to be in better shape.

     

    AoC was not good at launch and had terrible word of mouth

    WAR had identity crisis and couldnt decide if it wanted to be PvE or PvP, and despite having a great framework for PvE if they pushed it, it went PvP and didnt know how to balance it at all.

    SWtoR also had bad word of mouth and was a soulless WoW-clone

     

    FFXIV has a tremendous leg up on all three of these.  I think Rift is a better barometer, since rift was also a game people initially loved.  Within 6 months rift lost almost 2/3rds of its population even after numerous sales.

    However, FFXIV has significantly better crafting which will keep a large community.  And it has the FF ip, whereas Rift had a very lackluster original property.  Also, in FFXIV you arent automatically granted all the classes skill, you have to relevel them so there is *much* more character progression to do.

    They need some big patches if they want to sustain, but it wont drop off as much as Rift or SWTOR did or plummet like AoC or WAR.  At worst FFXIV will have 50% of its player base in 6 months.  Which would still make it the second most successful MMORPG launch since LOTRO.

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681
    Originally posted by DMKano

     


    Originally posted by icculus2112

     

     


    Originally posted by gamesrfun Over the last 6-7 years the MMO community has witnessed some very successful initial launches. Age of Conan WAR SWTOR Each of them crashed and burned very fast.   They shared many of the same qualities, namely: 1)  Seriously easy leveling at the start; 2)  Major leveling and end-game nerfs soon after; 3)  Standard theme park designs;  4) Initial game queue issues; and 5) Major bugs that were exploited early. FFXIV shares all of these "symptoms".  FATEs are so ridiculously OP that many casual players are in their 30s and 40s and anyone remotely hardcore is already 50.   Amdapor Keep just received a massive nerf of the exponential variety.  Everyone already knows about the initial login headaches.  Endgame dungeon exploits abound.   The attrition rates of the games above were approximately 90% in the first 6 months.  FFXIV does not look to be in better shape.  
    AoC was not good at launch and had terrible word of mouth

     

    WAR had identity crisis and couldnt decide if it wanted to be PvE or PvP, and despite having a great framework for PvE if they pushed it, it went PvP and didnt know how to balance it at all.

    SWtoR also had bad word of mouth and was a soulless WoW-clone

     

    FFXIV has a tremendous leg up on all three of these.  I think Rift is a better barometer, since rift was also a game people initially loved.  Within 6 months rift lost almost 2/3rds of its population even after numerous sales.

    However, FFXIV has significantly better crafting which will keep a large community.  And it has the FF ip, whereas Rift had a very lackluster original property.  Also, in FFXIV you arent automatically granted all the classes skill, you have to relevel them so there is *much* more character progression to do.

    They need some big patches if they want to sustain, but it wont drop off as much as Rift or SWTOR did or plummet like AoC or WAR.  At worst FFXIV will have 50% of its player base in 6 months.  Which would still make it the second most successful MMORPG launch since LOTRO.


     

    Your Rift figures are off - at 6 months the game had more than 50% of original playerbase, it was closer to 60%.

    IMO FFARR will have less than 50% players in 6 months unless SE can introduce an enormous amount of end game content.

    It took me months to exhaust all content and level up all souls in Rift.

    I already have two 50s and a 42, and all the rest at 15 in ARR. My FC is all at 50, been there for a week.

    Unless there are massive content updates on the way every month, its already in trouble.


     

    And when you're on to the next game burning through content...the rest of us will still be here having a blast. 

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Member UncommonPosts: 2,392

    Final Fantasy XIV player base  is growing almost surpassing GW2(according to xfire)  and they are still trying to minimize game sales.

     

    Who knows what size player base they will end up with...especially when they add FRONTLINE.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by Tissmogi
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

    Over the last 6-7 years the MMO community has witnessed some very successful initial launches.

    Age of Conan

    WAR

    SWTOR

    Each of them crashed and burned very fast.   They shared many of the same qualities, namely:

    1)  Seriously easy leveling at the start;

    Every MMO has this

    2)  Major leveling and end-game nerfs soon after;

    I fail to see any nerfs, if you refer to the adjustments of the dungeons to prevent speed runs, then that is not a nerf but a needed change.

    3)  Standard theme park designs; 

    applies to all recent mmos and ffxiv has non standard design too.

    4) Initial game queue issues; and

    every mmo had these

    5) Major bugs that were exploited early.

    Name just one exploit with link and proof please.

    FFXIV shares all of these "symptoms".  FATEs are so ridiculously OP that many casual players are in their 30s and 40s and anyone remotely hardcore is already 50.   Amdapor Keep just received a massive nerf of the exponential variety.  Everyone already knows about the initial login headaches.  Endgame dungeon exploits abound.  

    The attrition rates of the games above were approximately 90% in the first 6 months.  FFXIV does not look to be in better shape.

     

    The game will have a healthy following just like FFXI has. I prefer a small but dedicated and mature community to the cesspool of something like WoW any day!

    Problem is, FFXIV is not about what you prefer.

    It is about what SE and the investors demanded when the contract was signed to provide the investment dollars in remaking a failed game and trying to relaunch it.

    Promises were made, and milestones set in contract. 

    At the moment those milestones are surpassed, but a niche game is not what SE or the investors were promised.

    FFXIV was already a niche game before the remake.

     

    Oh and to the morons that are buying SE spin about no investors and only wanting a small game.

    I would like to point out SE is a publicly  traded company.

    That means a board of INVESTORS make the decisions, not, repeat NOT a game designer, or spin doctor.

    People lost their jobs over the first fail of this game, trust me if there is a 2nd fail, the parking lot pink slip meeting will be of epic proportions.

     

    To be fair here I will state that as of the end of day weekend sell off, SE is trading at a 10 year high of 15.58 per share. 

    As crappy as SE has traded over the past 10 years, that really is a decent number.

    Yoshi disagrees with you.

    http://www.gameskinny.com/5su9f/rationalizing-ffxiv-a-realm-reborns-subscription-model

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by Tissmogi
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

    Over the last 6-7 years the MMO community has witnessed some very successful initial launches.

    Age of Conan

    WAR

    SWTOR

    Each of them crashed and burned very fast.   They shared many of the same qualities, namely:

    1)  Seriously easy leveling at the start;

    Every MMO has this

    2)  Major leveling and end-game nerfs soon after;

    I fail to see any nerfs, if you refer to the adjustments of the dungeons to prevent speed runs, then that is not a nerf but a needed change.

    3)  Standard theme park designs; 

    applies to all recent mmos and ffxiv has non standard design too.

    4) Initial game queue issues; and

    every mmo had these

    5) Major bugs that were exploited early.

    Name just one exploit with link and proof please.

    FFXIV shares all of these "symptoms".  FATEs are so ridiculously OP that many casual players are in their 30s and 40s and anyone remotely hardcore is already 50.   Amdapor Keep just received a massive nerf of the exponential variety.  Everyone already knows about the initial login headaches.  Endgame dungeon exploits abound.  

    The attrition rates of the games above were approximately 90% in the first 6 months.  FFXIV does not look to be in better shape.

     

    The game will have a healthy following just like FFXI has. I prefer a small but dedicated and mature community to the cesspool of something like WoW any day!

    Problem is, FFXIV is not about what you prefer.

    It is about what SE and the investors demanded when the contract was signed to provide the investment dollars in remaking a failed game and trying to relaunch it.

    Promises were made, and milestones set in contract. 

    At the moment those milestones are surpassed, but a niche game is not what SE or the investors were promised.

    FFXIV was already a niche game before the remake.

     

    Oh and to the morons that are buying SE spin about no investors and only wanting a small game.

    I would like to point out SE is a publicly  traded company.

    That means a board of INVESTORS make the decisions, not, repeat NOT a game designer, or spin doctor.

    People lost their jobs over the first fail of this game, trust me if there is a 2nd fail, the parking lot pink slip meeting will be of epic proportions.

     

    To be fair here I will state that as of the end of day weekend sell off, SE is trading at a 10 year high of 15.58 per share. 

    As crappy as SE has traded over the past 10 years, that really is a decent number.

    Yoshi disagrees with you.

    http://www.gameskinny.com/5su9f/rationalizing-ffxiv-a-realm-reborns-subscription-model

    And THIS is why FF ARR will be VERY successful - Yoshi gets it:

    "With a subscription base, if you get maybe 400,000 members, you know that you’re going to have the money from that monthly subscription for the next month. You also know that you’re going to have 400,000 this month, and it’s not going to go down to 200,000 users next month.

    That type of jump really doesn’t happen with a subscription model. So you know that you’re going to have a steady income. Because you have a steady income, you can plan ahead further. You can make sure you have staff members to create that new content. By creating new content, you’re making the players happy. If they know this game is going to keep creating new content, they’ll continue to pay their monthly subscription fees.

    So rather than going for the huge $100-million-a-month hit that you might get with the free-to-play model, having that steady income allows us to provide a better product to the players."

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • psiicpsiic Member RarePosts: 1,642
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by Tissmogi
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

    Over the last 6-7 years the MMO community has witnessed some very successful initial launches.

    Age of Conan

    WAR

    SWTOR

    Each of them crashed and burned very fast.   They shared many of the same qualities, namely:

    1)  Seriously easy leveling at the start;

    Every MMO has this

    2)  Major leveling and end-game nerfs soon after;

    I fail to see any nerfs, if you refer to the adjustments of the dungeons to prevent speed runs, then that is not a nerf but a needed change.

    3)  Standard theme park designs; 

    applies to all recent mmos and ffxiv has non standard design too.

    4) Initial game queue issues; and

    every mmo had these

    5) Major bugs that were exploited early.

    Name just one exploit with link and proof please.

    FFXIV shares all of these "symptoms".  FATEs are so ridiculously OP that many casual players are in their 30s and 40s and anyone remotely hardcore is already 50.   Amdapor Keep just received a massive nerf of the exponential variety.  Everyone already knows about the initial login headaches.  Endgame dungeon exploits abound.  

    The attrition rates of the games above were approximately 90% in the first 6 months.  FFXIV does not look to be in better shape.

     

    The game will have a healthy following just like FFXI has. I prefer a small but dedicated and mature community to the cesspool of something like WoW any day!

    Problem is, FFXIV is not about what you prefer.

    It is about what SE and the investors demanded when the contract was signed to provide the investment dollars in remaking a failed game and trying to relaunch it.

    Promises were made, and milestones set in contract. 

    At the moment those milestones are surpassed, but a niche game is not what SE or the investors were promised.

    FFXIV was already a niche game before the remake.

     

    Oh and to the morons that are buying SE spin about no investors and only wanting a small game.

    I would like to point out SE is a publicly  traded company.

    That means a board of INVESTORS make the decisions, not, repeat NOT a game designer, or spin doctor.

    People lost their jobs over the first fail of this game, trust me if there is a 2nd fail, the parking lot pink slip meeting will be of epic proportions.

     

    To be fair here I will state that as of the end of day weekend sell off, SE is trading at a 10 year high of 15.58 per share. 

    As crappy as SE has traded over the past 10 years, that really is a decent number.

    Yoshi disagrees with you.

    http://www.gameskinny.com/5su9f/rationalizing-ffxiv-a-realm-reborns-subscription-model

    Wow problem with your comment is that  Naoki Yoshida is a total and complete nobody.

    He is the game director PERIOD, he is an EMPLOYEE, the creative manager of one fricken SE game. He has zero count them zero power and his ONLY decision making is about the creative direction of FF XIV, NOTHING concerning SE business decisions.

    Granted he has a swelled head and thinks he is some kinda God,  but in reality he's about as useful as a wet paper bag.

    The only thing he is really good for is the person for SE to blame all the fuckup's on and toss out the door when the game tanks.

  • psiicpsiic Member RarePosts: 1,642

     

    And THIS is why FF ARR will be VERY successful - Yoshi gets it:

    "With a subscription base, if you get maybe 400,000 members, you know that you’re going to have the money from that monthly subscription for the next month. You also know that you’re going to have 400,000 this month, and it’s not going to go down to 200,000 users next month.

    That type of jump really doesn’t happen with a subscription model. So you know that you’re going to have a steady income. Because you have a steady income, you can plan ahead further. You can make sure you have staff members to create that new content. By creating new content, you’re making the players happy. If they know this game is going to keep creating new content, they’ll continue to pay their monthly subscription fees.

    So rather than going for the huge $100-million-a-month hit that you might get with the free-to-play model, having that steady income allows us to provide a better product to the players."

    Again it does not matter what yoshi gets or does not get, he is not a money guy, he is not a business manager, he makes zero decisions about what is considered a success or failure for SE.

     

    ALL he does is decides if the armor is blue or pink,  he is CREATIVE director. 

     

    Sorry to burst yours or Yoshida's bubble.

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681
    Originally posted by Heretic061

    Im not gonna read 7 pages of replies, and I don't know what exploits the Op is talking about but this game will not be this huge for long,  easy MMO's with no death Penalty that you can solo to the level cap without dying won't last. There's no sense of the server being a community.  Games like EQ, and FF 11 were great, people would spend 20 mins+ to come out and rez you, and you would do the same in return,  you can barely get a raise when there's 50 people at the fates.  I had High hopes for this game,  Pre-ordered both collectors editions.  To help support SE,  but seriously I'm level 50 only grouped for the dungeons needed for the story and have never come close to dying.  Easy MMO + No Death Penalty = another failure in the making ( by the way don't tell me broken gear or re-spawing far away is a death penalty,  everything is just a 500 gil or less teleport away so that's no reason for people to work together and help each other).

    Every DPS class just hit 1.2 and 3, and the healers get 2 spells, and tanking is charge in and spam riot blade for MP and Flash. Has anyone healed a group?  My god it sucks,  Crafting??? It could be great,  I love all the sub-combines, leveling all of them at the same time to make your own gear, it's awesome, very much like EQ2 crafting before they nerfed it, but  the gear you make is crap.  And you level to fast to worry about gear,  hell people are hitting level 50 with level 18 gear.

    And on to the quests... seriously,  In the high level 20's the world is ending and I'm the only hope etc etc, and for 2 hours the quests have me getting a picnic together and dancing at npc's... the quest go beyond being worse than "Kill x amount of something" to go pick up these 5 things that just appeared 2 inches apart right in front of you, of walk around and DANCE @ 8 NPC's!

    The gathering ??? wtf are they thinking,  here's 4 instanced nodes just for you again 4 inches apart you just run in circles. 98% of all mobs don't aggro, and even the ones that do usually don't. (I don't know if it's lag or just broken)  but even when they do aggro you run 6 feet and they turn around.  Things like this don't offer any sense of accomplishment when you get something done.  Maybe I'm the minority but I want epic quests that can take days/weeks to accomplish with groups for 1 Item,  just getting to level 10 in FF 11 was a great feeling, heading off to the dunes with your friends moving into the meat of the game.  I started a Lancer the other night to try and enjoy the game but was at level 11 in an hour and a half.  No I didn't read the quest text bubbles since I did on my first character.

    PS maybe I'm a bit cynical but I figure they are causing the server issues and halting sales so when they allow them again people rush to buy it before it's gone again.  I'm not a hater either, I've been on board sucking the c**k of SE forever, but sometimes you have to be honest with yourself and realize if we keep giving money to companies for boring ass easy games that's what we're going to get.

     

    Yes...you're a BIT cynical - I hope some game company will make an MMO someday that will meet your standards. Btw...EQ2 is still going on...maybe you should try it out again?

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by Tissmogi
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

    Over the last 6-7 years the MMO community has witnessed some very successful initial launches.

    Age of Conan

    WAR

    SWTOR

    Each of them crashed and burned very fast.   They shared many of the same qualities, namely:

    1)  Seriously easy leveling at the start;

    Every MMO has this

    2)  Major leveling and end-game nerfs soon after;

    I fail to see any nerfs, if you refer to the adjustments of the dungeons to prevent speed runs, then that is not a nerf but a needed change.

    3)  Standard theme park designs; 

    applies to all recent mmos and ffxiv has non standard design too.

    4) Initial game queue issues; and

    every mmo had these

    5) Major bugs that were exploited early.

    Name just one exploit with link and proof please.

    FFXIV shares all of these "symptoms".  FATEs are so ridiculously OP that many casual players are in their 30s and 40s and anyone remotely hardcore is already 50.   Amdapor Keep just received a massive nerf of the exponential variety.  Everyone already knows about the initial login headaches.  Endgame dungeon exploits abound.  

    The attrition rates of the games above were approximately 90% in the first 6 months.  FFXIV does not look to be in better shape.

     

    The game will have a healthy following just like FFXI has. I prefer a small but dedicated and mature community to the cesspool of something like WoW any day!

    Problem is, FFXIV is not about what you prefer.

    It is about what SE and the investors demanded when the contract was signed to provide the investment dollars in remaking a failed game and trying to relaunch it.

    Promises were made, and milestones set in contract. 

    At the moment those milestones are surpassed, but a niche game is not what SE or the investors were promised.

    FFXIV was already a niche game before the remake.

     

    Oh and to the morons that are buying SE spin about no investors and only wanting a small game.

    I would like to point out SE is a publicly  traded company.

    That means a board of INVESTORS make the decisions, not, repeat NOT a game designer, or spin doctor.

    People lost their jobs over the first fail of this game, trust me if there is a 2nd fail, the parking lot pink slip meeting will be of epic proportions.

     

    To be fair here I will state that as of the end of day weekend sell off, SE is trading at a 10 year high of 15.58 per share. 

    As crappy as SE has traded over the past 10 years, that really is a decent number.

    Yoshi disagrees with you.

    http://www.gameskinny.com/5su9f/rationalizing-ffxiv-a-realm-reborns-subscription-model

    Wow problem with your comment is that  Naoki Yoshida is a total and complete nobody.

    He is the game director PERIOD, he is an EMPLOYEE, the creative manager of one fricken SE game. He has zero count them zero power and his ONLY decision making is about the creative direction of FF XIV, NOTHING concerning SE business decisions.

    Granted he has a swelled head and thinks he is some kinda God,  but in reality he's about as useful as a wet paper bag.

    The only thing he is really good for is the person for SE to blame all the fuckup's on and toss out the door when the game tanks.

    If Yoshi is " a total and complete nobody" with regard to FF14, where does that leave you and your opinion? What credentials do you bring where your opinion carries enough weight to contradict Yoshi's statement?

    MMORPG.COM cracks me up, while this isn't directed at psiic per se, it still kinda fits. Here we have a company that has proven it's intentions with the history of FF11 and FF14 1.0. Now here with FF14 2.0, we have the result of their promise to SE customers. FF11 was, is and will remain P2P. Now with FF14, we have a company with a track record to speak of that says we can at least believe this much. But the opinions MMORPG.COM are still bent on claiming SE is lying and it will be 6mo to a year before FF14 goes F2P. Regardless that SE flat out said, that's not going to happen and the title will be shut down if it fails. And yet over in the EQN forums, WE have a company who has told nothing but lies, cannot be trusted and doesn't seem to be in touch with its own customer base, making outrageous and frankly questionable claims as to what they are going to deliver. And yet, MMORPG.COM eats every word of it up and it better not be questioned.

    It's, frankly, laughable.

    /facepalm.

  • icculus2112icculus2112 Member Posts: 105
    Originally posted by DMKano

     

     

    FFXIV has a tremendous leg up on all three of these.  I think Rift is a better barometer, since rift was also a game people initially loved.  Within 6 months rift lost almost 2/3rds of its population even after numerous sales.

    However, FFXIV has significantly better crafting which will keep a large community.  And it has the FF ip, whereas Rift had a very lackluster original property.  Also, in FFXIV you arent automatically granted all the classes skill, you have to relevel them so there is *much* more character progression to do.

    They need some big patches if they want to sustain, but it wont drop off as much as Rift or SWTOR did or plummet like AoC or WAR.  At worst FFXIV will have 50% of its player base in 6 months.  Which would still make it the second most successful MMORPG launch since LOTRO.


     

    Your Rift figures are off - at 6 months the game had more than 50% of original playerbase, it was closer to 60%.

    IMO FFARR will have less than 50% players in 6 months unless SE can introduce an enormous amount of end game content.

    It took me months to exhaust all content and level up all souls in Rift.

    I already have two 50s and a 42, and all the rest at 15 in ARR. My FC is all at 50, been there for a week.

    Unless there are massive content updates on the way every month, its already in trouble.


     

    It had 650k in march, by december it was down around 200k.  So 9 months, not 6 months.  Sorry.

    So all your DoL/DoH are near 50 too?  You have cleared Coil of Bahamut?  By this point in Rift Lord Greenscale had been killed by numerous guilds.

    Not going to argue that FFXIV doesnt have a ton of content, but compared to other recent games its at worst par for the course.

  • k11keeperk11keeper Member UncommonPosts: 1,048
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
     

    If Yoshi is " a total and complete nobody" with regard to FF14, where does that leave you and your opinion? What credentials do you bring where your opinion carries enough weight to contradict Yoshi's statement?

    MMORPG.COM cracks me up, while this isn't directed at psiic per se, it still kinda fits. Here we have a company that has proven it's intentions with the history of FF11 and FF14 1.0. Now here with FF14 2.0, we have the result of their promise to SE customers. FF11 was, is and will remain P2P. Now with FF14, we have a company with a track record to speak of that says we can at least believe this much. But the opinions MMORPG.COM are still bent on claiming SE is lying and it will be 6mo to a year before FF14 goes F2P. Regardless that SE flat out said, that's not going to happen and the title will be shut down if it fails. And yet over in the EQN forums, WE have a company who has told nothing but lies, cannot be trusted and doesn't seem to be in touch with its own customer base, making outrageous and frankly questionable claims as to what they are going to deliver. And yet, MMORPG.COM eats every word of it up and it better not be questioned.

    It's, frankly, laughable.

    /facepalm.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed this trend when it comes to mmorpg.com. I need to learn to stay away from this site when I'm actually playing and enjoying a game. It's mostly haters and trolls in every forum. And like you said the staff here have an obvious bias towards certain games that their reviews are laughable.

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by Tissmogi
    Originally posted by gamesrfun

    Over the last 6-7 years the MMO community has witnessed some very successful initial launches.

    Age of Conan

    WAR

    SWTOR

    Each of them crashed and burned very fast.   They shared many of the same qualities, namely:

    1)  Seriously easy leveling at the start;

    Every MMO has this

    2)  Major leveling and end-game nerfs soon after;

    I fail to see any nerfs, if you refer to the adjustments of the dungeons to prevent speed runs, then that is not a nerf but a needed change.

    3)  Standard theme park designs; 

    applies to all recent mmos and ffxiv has non standard design too.

    4) Initial game queue issues; and

    every mmo had these

    5) Major bugs that were exploited early.

    Name just one exploit with link and proof please.

    FFXIV shares all of these "symptoms".  FATEs are so ridiculously OP that many casual players are in their 30s and 40s and anyone remotely hardcore is already 50.   Amdapor Keep just received a massive nerf of the exponential variety.  Everyone already knows about the initial login headaches.  Endgame dungeon exploits abound.  

    The attrition rates of the games above were approximately 90% in the first 6 months.  FFXIV does not look to be in better shape.

     

    The game will have a healthy following just like FFXI has. I prefer a small but dedicated and mature community to the cesspool of something like WoW any day!

    Problem is, FFXIV is not about what you prefer.

    It is about what SE and the investors demanded when the contract was signed to provide the investment dollars in remaking a failed game and trying to relaunch it.

    Promises were made, and milestones set in contract. 

    At the moment those milestones are surpassed, but a niche game is not what SE or the investors were promised.

    FFXIV was already a niche game before the remake.

     

    Oh and to the morons that are buying SE spin about no investors and only wanting a small game.

    I would like to point out SE is a publicly  traded company.

    That means a board of INVESTORS make the decisions, not, repeat NOT a game designer, or spin doctor.

    People lost their jobs over the first fail of this game, trust me if there is a 2nd fail, the parking lot pink slip meeting will be of epic proportions.

     

    To be fair here I will state that as of the end of day weekend sell off, SE is trading at a 10 year high of 15.58 per share. 

    As crappy as SE has traded over the past 10 years, that really is a decent number.

    Yoshi disagrees with you.

    http://www.gameskinny.com/5su9f/rationalizing-ffxiv-a-realm-reborns-subscription-model

    Wow problem with your comment is that  Naoki Yoshida is a total and complete nobody.

    He is the game director PERIOD, he is an EMPLOYEE, the creative manager of one fricken SE game. He has zero count them zero power and his ONLY decision making is about the creative direction of FF XIV, NOTHING concerning SE business decisions.

    Granted he has a swelled head and thinks he is some kinda God,  but in reality he's about as useful as a wet paper bag.

    The only thing he is really good for is the person for SE to blame all the fuckup's on and toss out the door when the game tanks.

    If Yoshi is " a total and complete nobody" with regard to FF14, where does that leave you and your opinion? What credentials do you bring where your opinion carries enough weight to contradict Yoshi's statement?

    MMORPG.COM cracks me up, while this isn't directed at psiic per se, it still kinda fits. Here we have a company that has proven it's intentions with the history of FF11 and FF14 1.0. Now here with FF14 2.0, we have the result of their promise to SE customers. FF11 was, is and will remain P2P. Now with FF14, we have a company with a track record to speak of that says we can at least believe this much. But the opinions MMORPG.COM are still bent on claiming SE is lying and it will be 6mo to a year before FF14 goes F2P. Regardless that SE flat out said, that's not going to happen and the title will be shut down if it fails. And yet over in the EQN forums, WE have a company who has told nothing but lies, cannot be trusted and doesn't seem to be in touch with its own customer base, making outrageous and frankly questionable claims as to what they are going to deliver. And yet, MMORPG.COM eats every word of it up and it better not be questioned.

    It's, frankly, laughable.

    /facepalm.

    Hahaha...couldn't say it any better myself - just perfect :)

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • TissmogiTissmogi Member Posts: 177
    Originally posted by gamesrfun
    Originally posted by kartool
    Originally posted by gamesrfun
    Originally posted by Torcip
    SE has already way exceeded their expectations with this MMO, all they intended to have was a small and dedicated group of players just like with FFXI.  They probably know that a lot of people will leave and don't really care, they don't have publishers or outside investors to answer to for FFXIV and most likely already made their money back on what they spent on FFXIV.

    Square Enix is a public company.  

    I am sure that investors with significant holdings expect more than a "small and dedicated group of players" for their #1 franchise.  

    Age of Conan sold over 800,000 copies.  The game (along with The Secret World) bankrupted the company.  If you think they've made back their investment already you are deluded.

    Do you think FFXIV is the only game Square Enix has out? Funcom reduced themselves to basically a 2 game company as of 2008, it's not shocking they are in financial trouble. Square Enix has over a dozen games out in 2013 and some very big titles coming out in the near future, - FFXII - 3, Theif, FFXV and Kingdom Hearts III to name some. If FFXIV is more profitable than FFXI was I doubt the investors will be too worried about it. 

    Of course not.  The first point is that MMOs are extremely expensive to make and that a public company such as Square Enix is not aiming for "a small and dedicated group of players".  The second point is that selling 800,000 box/digital sales were not enough to keep a small company afloat when subscriptions faltered.  It is reasonably safe to assume that FFXIV's cost was more than that of AoC.

    Square Enix said themselves that the small dedicated group of FFXI players made them more money than any of their other games. Source: Multiple all over the net. 

    "Behold the power of MMOs to generate a Fort Knox of income. Square-Enix announced that out of all of the Final Fantasy games from 1987 through today, Final Fantasy XI has been the most profitable.

    This comes from Square-Enix President Yoichi Wada, who was hyping the title over the weekend amid the news of its upcoming expansion. Wada also said that if you tallied the accumulated play time of all current FFXI players, you'd end up with a mind-boggling 200,000 years /played.

    Final Fantasy XI recently celebrated its 10th anniversary and announced its first new expansion in six years, Seekers of Adouli."
  • KrimzinKrimzin Member UncommonPosts: 687

    Ok Chicken Little.. The Sky is falling, the Sky is falling.

    Amazing that almost no retailer can keep copies of the game in stock. Picked up a copy today at gamestop and he said they just got a shipment in and they are all reserved.
    Just because the game doesn't meet your needs, doesn't meet its all doom and gloom.

    LMAO.

    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
    Best Duo Ever

    Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
    Battle Station 
  • TorcipTorcip Member UncommonPosts: 669
    Originally posted by Tissmogi
    Originally posted by gamesrfun
    Originally posted by kartool
    Originally posted by gamesrfun
    Originally posted by Torcip
    SE has already way exceeded their expectations with this MMO, all they intended to have was a small and dedicated group of players just like with FFXI.  They probably know that a lot of people will leave and don't really care, they don't have publishers or outside investors to answer to for FFXIV and most likely already made their money back on what they spent on FFXIV.

    Square Enix is a public company.  

    I am sure that investors with significant holdings expect more than a "small and dedicated group of players" for their #1 franchise.  

    Age of Conan sold over 800,000 copies.  The game (along with The Secret World) bankrupted the company.  If you think they've made back their investment already you are deluded.

    Do you think FFXIV is the only game Square Enix has out? Funcom reduced themselves to basically a 2 game company as of 2008, it's not shocking they are in financial trouble. Square Enix has over a dozen games out in 2013 and some very big titles coming out in the near future, - FFXII - 3, Theif, FFXV and Kingdom Hearts III to name some. If FFXIV is more profitable than FFXI was I doubt the investors will be too worried about it. 

    Of course not.  The first point is that MMOs are extremely expensive to make and that a public company such as Square Enix is not aiming for "a small and dedicated group of players".  The second point is that selling 800,000 box/digital sales were not enough to keep a small company afloat when subscriptions faltered.  It is reasonably safe to assume that FFXIV's cost was more than that of AoC.

    Square Enix said themselves that the small dedicated group of FFXI players made them more money than any of their other games. Source: Multiple all over the net. 

    "Behold the power of MMOs to generate a Fort Knox of income. Square-Enix announced that out of all of the Final Fantasy games from 1987 through today, Final Fantasy XI has been the most profitable.

    This comes from Square-Enix President Yoichi Wada, who was hyping the title over the weekend amid the news of its upcoming expansion. Wada also said that if you tallied the accumulated play time of all current FFXI players, you'd end up with a mind-boggling 200,000 years /played.

    Final Fantasy XI recently celebrated its 10th anniversary and announced its first new expansion in six years, Seekers of Adouli."

    This is what people don't get. They all think they have taken a couple business classes at their local community college and all of a sudden they are smarter and better at making money then one of the biggest game companies in the world.

    Square Enix is continually telling us that player count vastly exceeded expectations, player count was only supposed to be a small dedicated group, they game was not designed to be that WoW killer, they didn't want millions upon millions of players playing. They did something more MMO companies need to start doing, have realistic expectations to how many people they're game is going to attract.

    SWTOR is one of the biggest example of a game that far exceeded it's reach, if they had built that game for a smaller, more specific group of players like SE did with FFXIV then it would have been very successful.

    Square Enix made a game for Final Fantasy fans to play together in, they had no intention of being the next big MMO, because they were smart enough to now that no game ever will pull WoW numbers again.

     

    And to comment to an above poster, you have no idea how much money FFXIV cost compared to AoC and to assume so is not "safe".

  • KrimzinKrimzin Member UncommonPosts: 687


    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by psiic Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by psiic Originally posted by Tissmogi Originally posted by gamesrfun Over the last 6-7 years the MMO community has witnessed some very successful initial launches. Age of Conan WAR SWTOR Each of them crashed and burned very fast.   They shared many of the same qualities, namely: 1)  Seriously easy leveling at the start; Every MMO has this 2)  Major leveling and end-game nerfs soon after; I fail to see any nerfs, if you refer to the adjustments of the dungeons to prevent speed runs, then that is not a nerf but a needed change. 3)  Standard theme park designs;  applies to all recent mmos and ffxiv has non standard design too. 4) Initial game queue issues; and every mmo had these 5) Major bugs that were exploited early. Name just one exploit with link and proof please. FFXIV shares all of these "symptoms".  FATEs are so ridiculously OP that many casual players are in their 30s and 40s and anyone remotely hardcore is already 50.   Amdapor Keep just received a massive nerf of the exponential variety.  Everyone already knows about the initial login headaches.  Endgame dungeon exploits abound.   The attrition rates of the games above were approximately 90% in the first 6 months.  FFXIV does not look to be in better shape.  
    The game will have a healthy following just like FFXI has. I prefer a small but dedicated and mature community to the cesspool of something like WoW any day!
    Problem is, FFXIV is not about what you prefer. It is about what SE and the investors demanded when the contract was signed to provide the investment dollars in remaking a failed game and trying to relaunch it. Promises were made, and milestones set in contract.  At the moment those milestones are surpassed, but a niche game is not what SE or the investors were promised. FFXIV was already a niche game before the remake.   Oh and to the morons that are buying SE spin about no investors and only wanting a small game. I would like to point out SE is a publicly  traded company. That means a board of INVESTORS make the decisions, not, repeat NOT a game designer, or spin doctor. People lost their jobs over the first fail of this game, trust me if there is a 2nd fail, the parking lot pink slip meeting will be of epic proportions.   To be fair here I will state that as of the end of day weekend sell off, SE is trading at a 10 year high of 15.58 per share.  As crappy as SE has traded over the past 10 years, that really is a decent number.
    Yoshi disagrees with you. http://www.gameskinny.com/5su9f/rationalizing-ffxiv-a-realm-reborns-subscription-model
    Wow problem with your comment is that  Naoki Yoshida is a total and complete nobody. He is the game director PERIOD, he is an EMPLOYEE, the creative manager of one fricken SE game. He has zero count them zero power and his ONLY decision making is about the creative direction of FF XIV, NOTHING concerning SE business decisions. Granted he has a swelled head and thinks he is some kinda God,  but in reality he's about as useful as a wet paper bag. The only thing he is really good for is the person for SE to blame all the fuckup's on and toss out the door when the game tanks.
    If Yoshi is " a total and complete nobody" with regard to FF14, where does that leave you and your opinion? What credentials do you bring where your opinion carries enough weight to contradict Yoshi's statement?

    MMORPG.COM cracks me up, while this isn't directed at psiic per se, it still kinda fits. Here we have a company that has proven it's intentions with the history of FF11 and FF14 1.0. Now here with FF14 2.0, we have the result of their promise to SE customers. FF11 was, is and will remain P2P. Now with FF14, we have a company with a track record to speak of that says we can at least believe this much. But the opinions MMORPG.COM are still bent on claiming SE is lying and it will be 6mo to a year before FF14 goes F2P. Regardless that SE flat out said, that's not going to happen and the title will be shut down if it fails. And yet over in the EQN forums, WE have a company who has told nothing but lies, cannot be trusted and doesn't seem to be in touch with its own customer base, making outrageous and frankly questionable claims as to what they are going to deliver. And yet, MMORPG.COM eats every word of it up and it better not be questioned.

    It's, frankly, laughable.

    /facepalm.



    You also got to remember revenue. The bigger the contributor the more crap they will go along with. If the money is good enough they would swear EQN has Jesus on the dev team.

    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
    Best Duo Ever

    Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
    Battle Station 
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Originally posted by Krimzin

     


    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    If Yoshi is " a total and complete nobody" with regard to FF14, where does that leave you and your opinion? What credentials do you bring where your opinion carries enough weight to contradict Yoshi's statement?

     

    MMORPG.COM cracks me up, while this isn't directed at psiic per se, it still kinda fits. Here we have a company that has proven it's intentions with the history of FF11 and FF14 1.0. Now here with FF14 2.0, we have the result of their promise to SE customers. FF11 was, is and will remain P2P. Now with FF14, we have a company with a track record to speak of that says we can at least believe this much. But the opinions MMORPG.COM are still bent on claiming SE is lying and it will be 6mo to a year before FF14 goes F2P. Regardless that SE flat out said, that's not going to happen and the title will be shut down if it fails. And yet over in the EQN forums, WE have a company who has told nothing but lies, cannot be trusted and doesn't seem to be in touch with its own customer base, making outrageous and frankly questionable claims as to what they are going to deliver. And yet, MMORPG.COM eats every word of it up and it better not be questioned.

    It's, frankly, laughable.

    /facepalm.


     


    You also got to remember revenue. The bigger the contributor the more crap they will go along with. If the money is good enough they would swear EQN has Jesus on the dev team.

    I wasn't speaking of the staff so much, I've already seen their views sway toward the advertisers. I recall the day they told us that using add blockers in our browsers on this site was tantamount to piracy. But I was speaking of the community of posters as a whole. 

  • gamesrfungamesrfun Member Posts: 127

    [mod edit]

    1)  This game is nothing like FFXI.  So comparing it to FFXI in terms of retention models is ridiculous.  

    2)  In fact, FFXIV version 1.0 was much closer to FFXI than this game is.  That obviously didn't help, did it?

    3) So instead of comparing potential retention to a game it is nothing like, it is probably smarter and more suitable to compare it to games that it has much more in common with.

    4)  The games it shares the most characteristics with (super easy, very good initial sales, themepark, unbalanced) tanked very fast.

    Now that I have that out of the way, let's extend what Mr. Yoshida said and follow it to its natural conclusion:

    He said that subscription gaming makes it easier to plan content, because you don't drop half your subscribers in a short period of time.  I don't know what type of hallucinogenics he prefers, but it is quite possible to shed half your base, and fast.

    Does he not keep up with other MMOs?  Is it just spin?  Who knows.  But the argument is flawed because there are numerous examples where this happens.  MOREOVER, his game fits the initial criteria that you would need for such a drop.

    And he even said that they fund development based on subscriptions.  But when the subscriptions curtail off and go down, quarter after quarter, let's take a guess what they will budget for a year down the road (hint: jack expletive).

     

  • AyulinAyulin Member Posts: 334
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    MMORPG.COM cracks me up, while this isn't directed at psiic per se, it still kinda fits. Here we have a company that has proven it's intentions with the history of FF11 and FF14 1.0. Now here with FF14 2.0, we have the result of their promise to SE customers. FF11 was, is and will remain P2P. Now with FF14, we have a company with a track record to speak of that says we can at least believe this much. But the opinions MMORPG.COM are still bent on claiming SE is lying and it will be 6mo to a year before FF14 goes F2P. Regardless that SE flat out said, that's not going to happen and the title will be shut down if it fails.

    It's, frankly, laughable.

    /facepalm.

    Yoshida has never flat out said "the game will be shut down if subscriptions fail". I've seen the quote people are referring to, and it is not nearly so cut and dry. It would also be pretty damn irresponsible for him to say that as I'm pretty sure t hat wouldn't be his call to make if it came down to it. It seems to me that people are taking that particular quote and spinning it to mean "he'd rather shut it down than go F2P" because it's what they would rather believe.

    Meanwhile, there are several quotes now where Yoshida actually has stated that while F2P is not his first nor preferred choice for ARR, he would consider it if circumstances were such that subscriptions were not cutting it.

    Example 1

    "On that note, is FFXIV going to possibly head to free-to-play? It all depends on what happens when the relaunch takes place, but it's certainly not the first plan. Yoshida definitely feels that the subscription model is the better option, at least initially. "Every game wants to be a subscription game," he argues."

     

    Example 2

    "As a producer, I of course will be watching how the money flows and will evaluate the situation. If we had to change to a free to play model, we would probably offer a hybrid model with free to play servers and subscriptions servers, but it's not something we have planned right now."

     

    That's two examples of several I've seen where Yoshida speaks openly about the possibility of switching to F2P. He not once, in any way, ever says "ARR will never go F2P. I would shut it down if it fails as P2P".  He even suggests the kind of setup he'd like to go with if it ever came to it. That tells me it's a possibility he's already thought on. He's not even against the concept of F2P itself and acknowledges it as being an alternate revenue model.. just not one that's ideal for ARR is it's planned right now.

    He says it's not the preferred revenue model, that ARR is not designed around that model and that he feels, due to SE's situation of not having outside investors to satisfy, they can "wait it out" until subs stabilize, etc.

    He does not ever rule out the possibility of ARR going F2P/Hybrid, nor does he ever say, unequivocally in a direct quote that he would shut down ARR before going F2P.

     

    People need to stop perpetuating that lie, because that's all it is.

     

     

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