Oh YES! Some more CC. Some more tactical movement and a lot of things to keep track of during a fight. But believe me if i say: it's just a matter of time before the whiners come and everything is nerfed to the ground. Sad..
I would like to see the game bring back the NEED for crowd control. EQ2 at release made great use of stuns, roots, fear, etc. But, after a couple expansion, everyone just ends up using area effect spells on everything.
Crowd control is great for breaking up a group of mobs, such as allowing you to root the fighter in a group while you whack on the mages. Or fearing a healer in a group, allowing you to pound on the others. Stuns, interrupts, all the fun stuff.
They used to be the foundation of several support classes, but those skills really aren't necessary anymore.
Please bring them back.
In my opinion there's plenty of CC in games, but the amount of AoE and single target DPS in most games is TOO DAMN HIGH!
If we get player DPS down a tad, and make encounters difficult for a change, then CC will be useful. CC simply isn't useful because players faceroll most of the content.
Amen to that the AOE spam nonsense and everbody is a dps hybrid trash has got to go. My greatest fear about this game is it has all these good features but they will ruin it all using a GW2 ish 5 button spam nonsense.
Making everyone dps with no CC and giving everyone minor heals is terrible this was initially the brainchild of Ghostcrawler when he started tearing WOW apart and MOP was the product GW2 is the natural evolution of those bad ideas and because its easier to program combat that way you can bet every fly by night cash grab mmo will do something like it.
That's your greatest fear?
That the game has twitch instead of tab target combat?
What good features does this game have that will be ruined? Do you think destructible world or buildings wouldn't be rendered lame by tab target combat? You have to target the side of the barn before hitting it.
I said nothing about tab vs twitch combat, nice try though. What I said is if combat is confined to 4 action buttons for weapons and a few class skills designed more for a console than a pc mmo as well as removing any real CC in favor of AOE spam then it wont matter if they have 100 classes because the only thing that will be really different about them is the animations. I actually prefer aiming my abilities over tab targeting that does not mean I like EZ mode class structure.
I would like to see the game bring back the NEED for crowd control. EQ2 at release made great use of stuns, roots, fear, etc. But, after a couple expansion, everyone just ends up using area effect spells on everything.
Crowd control is great for breaking up a group of mobs, such as allowing you to root the fighter in a group while you whack on the mages. Or fearing a healer in a group, allowing you to pound on the others. Stuns, interrupts, all the fun stuff.
They used to be the foundation of several support classes, but those skills really aren't necessary anymore.
Please bring them back.
I agree with bringing back crowd control in EQ Next.
Thing is though, you need to have a rock paper scissors mechanic to also make PVP work within this same style.
Examples are everywhere.
With a full party against another full party, many of the rocks, paper, and scissors will all have to know about and counter eachother to win. With 40 different classes this is bound to get interesting fast. Combine that with specific crafting mods and specialty armors and the possibilities can get quite large. Similar to any well crafted RTS, you and your team can only plan for so much and there are bound to be holes in your strat and the pvp'ers you are going against. I am totally looking forward to learning all of this from scratch since that is a huge aspect of what makes MMO's fun for me.
Amen to that the AOE spam nonsense and everbody is a dps hybrid trash has got to go. My greatest fear about this game is it has all these good features but they will ruin it all using a GW2 ish 5 button spam nonsense.
Making everyone dps with no CC and giving everyone minor heals is terrible this was initially the brainchild of Ghostcrawler when he started tearing WOW apart and MOP was the product GW2 is the natural evolution of those bad ideas and because its easier to program combat that way you can bet every fly by night cash grab mmo will do something like it.
That's your greatest fear?
That the game has twitch instead of tab target combat?
What good features does this game have that will be ruined? Do you think destructible world or buildings wouldn't be rendered lame by tab target combat? You have to target the side of the barn before hitting it.
Guild Wars 2 is tab target combat. I don't know about it is twitch.
I'm all for crowd control and loved the Enchanter class in EQ. That said what about EQ:Next makes you think they will bring back CC in the slightest? Have they said anything?
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I'm all for crowd control and loved the Enchanter class in EQ. That said what about EQ:Next makes you think they will bring back CC in the slightest? Have they said anything?
I don't have a good feeling about that happening. My initial reaction to seeing the class panel is that there wont be enough skills per class to really have room for a CC class type. Class skills are pretty set in stone and there are not many of them it also looks very PVE centric. That being said I find it much more likely they will have slowdown AOEs over actual CC abilities.
Also there is almost no discussion on the official website about classes or class mechanics at all, which makes me think they dont want to address it at all.
Guild Wars 2 is tab target combat. I don't know about it is twitch.
It isn't, but to know that you have to fight something else than just the open world mobs in the starter areas, and few people seem to do that before they form their opinion.
I don't have a good feeling about that happening. My initial reaction to seeing the class panel is that there wont be enough skills per class to really have room for a CC class type. Class skills are pretty set in stone and there are not many of them it also looks very PVE centric. That being said I find it much more likely they will have slowdown AOEs over actual CC abilities.
Also there is almost no discussion on the official website about classes or class mechanics at all, which makes me think they dont want to address it at all.
I don't see the appeal of focusing CC abilities in a single class, or focusing any class exclusively on CC. Both CC and CCC should be spread over many classes, but also be very limted in both duration and having multiple CC that can be stacked.
If you concentrate it in one class, you create a mandatory class, and that should be avoided. If you make CC duration too long, or provide too many stackable CC abilites, you just repeat the CC arms race that we've seen in other games before. One or two CC abilities per class, short duration, but also short cooldown. Enough to interrupt the flow of your opponent often, but not enough to lock him down.
I miss the days of pulls like in FFXI. If you had no CC in the group and you got an add, it was," OH SHIT" Those were the days. The days of just roaming around and mass killing stuff is wearing thin with me. As much as I enjoy FFXIV, I hate the FATE grinding crap. I ll basically do one if I run into it, I don t search them out. That said, I miss CC in games for sure, well cc done right.
I agree to an extent. I felt EQ enchanters back in the heyday (and then EQ2 enchanters) were too powerful, which resulted in CC being severely nerfed. It was possible to lock down entire groups of enemies indefinitely, I don't want to see that return. But strategic short duration CC? Sure, would love that to play a major role.
Same with tanking and healing, I don't think they should be long term things. Tanks should be able to grab aggro for short periods of time, healers should be able to do emergency heals but not constantly top up green bars.
I think what I want is a light trinity. Where roles are still important, but not extreme.
Definitely agree though I also agree that it would need to be reworked. Something as simple as making mobs immune to CC for twice the duration of how long they were CCd so you can't just chain CC something would do wonders. CC is a very important part of MMO combat imo but being able to completely lock something down just makes it too powerful and not strategic enough.
But balanced, not overkill abilities. Anyone remember EQ1 Monk epic 2.0? Unresistable spinn stunns+DD and you can dps the stunned target at same time.. that was not cool in EQ1 on the receiving end in PVP and those stunns procced a lot and lasted long it was so retarded.
Short duration tactical abilities which your opponents with skill have a chance to avoid is FUN!
I agree to an extent. I felt EQ enchanters back in the heyday (and then EQ2 enchanters) were too powerful, which resulted in CC being severely nerfed. It was possible to lock down entire groups of enemies indefinitely, I don't want to see that return. But strategic short duration CC? Sure, would love that to play a major role.
Same with tanking and healing, I don't think they should be long term things. Tanks should be able to grab aggro for short periods of time, healers should be able to do emergency heals but not constantly top up green bars.
I think what I want is a light trinity. Where roles are still important, but not extreme.
I agree. I think cc is good as long as it isn't invincible. Having different types of cc which break for a variety of reasons fairly often, provides the cc class higher activity in battle and provides a bigger scare factor to the whole group. Same for tanks and aggro - trinity can be super fun, if the tank loses aggro often, either to the tanks actions or actions from other players, and part of the strat is getting it back. This also changes dps from a all-out-all-the-time approach to one where they have to ramp up and scale back dependent upon the situation.
I agree to an extent. I felt EQ enchanters back in the heyday (and then EQ2 enchanters) were too powerful, which resulted in CC being severely nerfed. It was possible to lock down entire groups of enemies indefinitely, I don't want to see that return. But strategic short duration CC? Sure, would love that to play a major role.
Same with tanking and healing, I don't think they should be long term things. Tanks should be able to grab aggro for short periods of time, healers should be able to do emergency heals but not constantly top up green bars.
I think what I want is a light trinity. Where roles are still important, but not extreme.
I agree. I think cc is good as long as it isn't invincible. Having different types of cc which break for a variety of reasons fairly often, provides the cc class higher activity in battle and provides a bigger scare factor to the whole group. Same for tanks and aggro - trinity can be super fun, if the tank loses aggro often, either to the tanks actions or actions from other players, and part of the strat is getting it back. This also changes dps from a all-out-all-the-time approach to one where they have to ramp up and scale back dependent upon the situation.
Yeah but EQN doesn't have tanks. Wouldn't CC be a good thing to supplement dodging and attempting to get agro through dps? I don't think anyone Is saying make an "I Win" button, but don't make CC like the Troubador's charm from EQ2.
If the CC is useless the classes that feature it either wont get played, or they will be specced for a different function.
Originally posted by Yamota For PvE yes, crowd control adds a lot to the game. But for PvP, no. There is no fun being the target of a CC and stand helpless as you, or your friends, are getting slaughtered.
I have played a lot of DAoC. And DAoC got a lot of CC, but they got it somewhat right. Ok, in the very beginning DAoC Vanilla it was somewhat over the top with 50s mezz without much counter.
But later on they introduced a few things:
- immunity from CC after get cc'ed for a few minutes (don't know the exact number). No stun locking, no chain mezz/rooting.
- resistence for most CC up to 60% (Buffs + Armor Enchants). With that the longest mezz/root of around 50s was reduced to below 20 sec. The same for root. Cast Stun was affected, melee stun was unaffected from resistance. Longest stun 9 sec.
- Break Out abilities (RA Purge for everyone available Couldown 15 or 30 min.) and a Single Target Cast purge abilities for CC classes, so if they purged out with RA they could release everyone else.
With that CC was not a lot of a annoyance, but just another tactical feature CC/AntiCC.
And a lot of people mention DAoC as one of the best pvp mmorpgs around.. and DAoC was one of the mmos with the longest CC durations.. although it was in the beginning a little bit to long and without enough counter abilities. But after all CC added to the pvp from DAoC.
I don't have a good feeling about that happening. My initial reaction to seeing the class panel is that there wont be enough skills per class to really have room for a CC class type. Class skills are pretty set in stone and there are not many of them it also looks very PVE centric. That being said I find it much more likely they will have slowdown AOEs over actual CC abilities.
Also there is almost no discussion on the official website about classes or class mechanics at all, which makes me think they dont want to address it at all.
I don't see the appeal of focusing CC abilities in a single class, or focusing any class exclusively on CC. Both CC and CCC should be spread over many classes, but also be very limted in both duration and having multiple CC that can be stacked.
If you concentrate it in one class, you create a mandatory class, and that should be avoided. If you make CC duration too long, or provide too many stackable CC abilites, you just repeat the CC arms race that we've seen in other games before. One or two CC abilities per class, short duration, but also short cooldown. Enough to interrupt the flow of your opponent often, but not enough to lock him down.
Disagree even if you do not have a true trinity you must have truly separate classes. Giving everyone the same abilities and essentially making everyone spam DPS with a few healing skills and psudo cc and stun abilities that last one second is what makes GW2 combat so awful in the first place.
There is nothing wrong with mandatory classes, and why is it perfectly fine to have stackable DPS and endles DPS AOE spam but not fine to have truly different class types. In GW2 you can spam bleeds until the cows come home and spam people to death to your hearts content, if they did have any CC worth talking about amongst other abilities they have gimped the pvp might not be so bad and maybe the pvp would be better.
Support classes are fine and you never had to have an Enchanter in EQ. As long as a couple classes can do the job you are fine. Monk or SK could pull, Enchanter or Bard could CC etc.
I 100% would love to see crowed control back in a meaningful way. I am tired of just being able to zerg at mobs. My wife played an Enchanter in Eq1 and has been missing the profession since. It was always great to play with good enchanters!
Originally posted by Soki123 I miss the days of pulls like in FFXI. If you had no CC in the group and you got an add, it was," OH SHIT" Those were the days. The days of just roaming around and mass killing stuff is wearing thin with me.
i agree - an add should mean the party bumped up the challenge considerably and someone has hi risk of death
Originally posted by Yamota For PvE yes, crowd control adds a lot to the game. But for PvP, no. There is no fun being the target of a CC and stand helpless as you, or your friends, are getting slaughtered.
I have played a lot of DAoC. And DAoC got a lot of CC, but they got it somewhat right. Ok, in the very beginning DAoC Vanilla it was somewhat over the top with 50s mezz without much counter.
But later on they introduced a few things:
- immunity from CC after get cc'ed for a few minutes (don't know the exact number). No stun locking, no chain mezz/rooting.
- resistence for most CC up to 60% (Buffs + Armor Enchants). With that the longest mezz/root of around 50s was reduced to below 20 sec. The same for root. Cast Stun was affected, melee stun was unaffected from resistance. Longest stun 9 sec.
- Break Out abilities (RA Purge for everyone available Couldown 15 or 30 min.) and a Single Target Cast purge abilities for CC classes, so if they purged out with RA they could release everyone else.
With that CC was not a lot of a annoyance, but just another tactical feature CC/AntiCC.
And a lot of people mention DAoC as one of the best pvp mmorpgs around.. and DAoC was one of the mmos with the longest CC durations.. although it was in the beginning a little bit to long and without enough counter abilities. But after all CC added to the pvp from DAoC.
Agree with this, the freeshard I play on has the CC just right, sure, I get mezzed, rooted, stunned in the course of combat, but it is very tactical and sometimes I resist, or drop speed of sound to prevent my group from being locked down, or purge off an individual effect, or have a de-mezzer clear it. Or strangely enough, sometimes I just move out of the way and make sure it doesn't land on me.
It really isn't the horror some folks think where I am "always" stuck and unable to fight, but I won't say it never happens and while frustrating when it does, it's not nearly the game breaker that people seem to think it might be. (unless of course, you prefer your combat to be always active, all the time, then I agree, you might not be able to tolerate it)
But on the PVE side, CC should be made more relevant/specialized than it has in the recent past and hopefully they will consider it for this new title.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Comments
In my opinion there's plenty of CC in games, but the amount of AoE and single target DPS in most games is TOO DAMN HIGH!
If we get player DPS down a tad, and make encounters difficult for a change, then CC will be useful. CC simply isn't useful because players faceroll most of the content.
I said nothing about tab vs twitch combat, nice try though. What I said is if combat is confined to 4 action buttons for weapons and a few class skills designed more for a console than a pc mmo as well as removing any real CC in favor of AOE spam then it wont matter if they have 100 classes because the only thing that will be really different about them is the animations. I actually prefer aiming my abilities over tab targeting that does not mean I like EZ mode class structure.
I agree with bringing back crowd control in EQ Next.
Thing is though, you need to have a rock paper scissors mechanic to also make PVP work within this same style.
Examples are everywhere.
With a full party against another full party, many of the rocks, paper, and scissors will all have to know about and counter eachother to win. With 40 different classes this is bound to get interesting fast. Combine that with specific crafting mods and specialty armors and the possibilities can get quite large. Similar to any well crafted RTS, you and your team can only plan for so much and there are bound to be holes in your strat and the pvp'ers you are going against. I am totally looking forward to learning all of this from scratch since that is a huge aspect of what makes MMO's fun for me.
Guild Wars 2 is tab target combat. I don't know about it is twitch.
I'm all for crowd control and loved the Enchanter class in EQ. That said what about EQ:Next makes you think they will bring back CC in the slightest? Have they said anything?
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I don't have a good feeling about that happening. My initial reaction to seeing the class panel is that there wont be enough skills per class to really have room for a CC class type. Class skills are pretty set in stone and there are not many of them it also looks very PVE centric. That being said I find it much more likely they will have slowdown AOEs over actual CC abilities.
Also there is almost no discussion on the official website about classes or class mechanics at all, which makes me think they dont want to address it at all.
It isn't, but to know that you have to fight something else than just the open world mobs in the starter areas, and few people seem to do that before they form their opinion.
I don't see the appeal of focusing CC abilities in a single class, or focusing any class exclusively on CC. Both CC and CCC should be spread over many classes, but also be very limted in both duration and having multiple CC that can be stacked.
If you concentrate it in one class, you create a mandatory class, and that should be avoided. If you make CC duration too long, or provide too many stackable CC abilites, you just repeat the CC arms race that we've seen in other games before. One or two CC abilities per class, short duration, but also short cooldown. Enough to interrupt the flow of your opponent often, but not enough to lock him down.
Just to split hairs - your enchanter is still there in EQ, still a control freak class - hard to bring back something that didn't go away.
I agree with the sentiment however, I love classes that are cc focused and would love to see multiple cc builds in EQN.
I agree to an extent. I felt EQ enchanters back in the heyday (and then EQ2 enchanters) were too powerful, which resulted in CC being severely nerfed. It was possible to lock down entire groups of enemies indefinitely, I don't want to see that return. But strategic short duration CC? Sure, would love that to play a major role.
Same with tanking and healing, I don't think they should be long term things. Tanks should be able to grab aggro for short periods of time, healers should be able to do emergency heals but not constantly top up green bars.
I think what I want is a light trinity. Where roles are still important, but not extreme.
Definitely agree though I also agree that it would need to be reworked. Something as simple as making mobs immune to CC for twice the duration of how long they were CCd so you can't just chain CC something would do wonders. CC is a very important part of MMO combat imo but being able to completely lock something down just makes it too powerful and not strategic enough.
Agreed 300%
But balanced, not overkill abilities. Anyone remember EQ1 Monk epic 2.0? Unresistable spinn stunns+DD and you can dps the stunned target at same time.. that was not cool in EQ1 on the receiving end in PVP and those stunns procced a lot and lasted long it was so retarded.
Short duration tactical abilities which your opponents with skill have a chance to avoid is FUN!
I agree. I think cc is good as long as it isn't invincible. Having different types of cc which break for a variety of reasons fairly often, provides the cc class higher activity in battle and provides a bigger scare factor to the whole group. Same for tanks and aggro - trinity can be super fun, if the tank loses aggro often, either to the tanks actions or actions from other players, and part of the strat is getting it back. This also changes dps from a all-out-all-the-time approach to one where they have to ramp up and scale back dependent upon the situation.
Yeah but EQN doesn't have tanks. Wouldn't CC be a good thing to supplement dodging and attempting to get agro through dps? I don't think anyone Is saying make an "I Win" button, but don't make CC like the Troubador's charm from EQ2.
If the CC is useless the classes that feature it either wont get played, or they will be specced for a different function.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I have played a lot of DAoC. And DAoC got a lot of CC, but they got it somewhat right. Ok, in the very beginning DAoC Vanilla it was somewhat over the top with 50s mezz without much counter.
But later on they introduced a few things:
- immunity from CC after get cc'ed for a few minutes (don't know the exact number). No stun locking, no chain mezz/rooting.
- resistence for most CC up to 60% (Buffs + Armor Enchants). With that the longest mezz/root of around 50s was reduced to below 20 sec. The same for root. Cast Stun was affected, melee stun was unaffected from resistance. Longest stun 9 sec.
- Break Out abilities (RA Purge for everyone available Couldown 15 or 30 min.) and a Single Target Cast purge abilities for CC classes, so if they purged out with RA they could release everyone else.
With that CC was not a lot of a annoyance, but just another tactical feature CC/AntiCC.
And a lot of people mention DAoC as one of the best pvp mmorpgs around.. and DAoC was one of the mmos with the longest CC durations.. although it was in the beginning a little bit to long and without enough counter abilities. But after all CC added to the pvp from DAoC.
Disagree even if you do not have a true trinity you must have truly separate classes. Giving everyone the same abilities and essentially making everyone spam DPS with a few healing skills and psudo cc and stun abilities that last one second is what makes GW2 combat so awful in the first place.
There is nothing wrong with mandatory classes, and why is it perfectly fine to have stackable DPS and endles DPS AOE spam but not fine to have truly different class types. In GW2 you can spam bleeds until the cows come home and spam people to death to your hearts content, if they did have any CC worth talking about amongst other abilities they have gimped the pvp might not be so bad and maybe the pvp would be better.
And it is 'pay', not 'play'.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Support classes are fine and you never had to have an Enchanter in EQ. As long as a couple classes can do the job you are fine. Monk or SK could pull, Enchanter or Bard could CC etc.
I think to truly make a balanced game. That is fun to play:
Each class should have 1 and no more than 1 CC and some classes may sacrifice this CC for more damage, healing or support.
Single target needs to be more powerful than AOE. if you want AOE to be poewerful and still balanced, it needs to damage friend and foe.
i agree - an add should mean the party bumped up the challenge considerably and someone has hi risk of death
EQ2 fan sites
Agree with this, the freeshard I play on has the CC just right, sure, I get mezzed, rooted, stunned in the course of combat, but it is very tactical and sometimes I resist, or drop speed of sound to prevent my group from being locked down, or purge off an individual effect, or have a de-mezzer clear it. Or strangely enough, sometimes I just move out of the way and make sure it doesn't land on me.
It really isn't the horror some folks think where I am "always" stuck and unable to fight, but I won't say it never happens and while frustrating when it does, it's not nearly the game breaker that people seem to think it might be. (unless of course, you prefer your combat to be always active, all the time, then I agree, you might not be able to tolerate it)
But on the PVE side, CC should be made more relevant/specialized than it has in the recent past and hopefully they will consider it for this new title.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon