I like GW2's direction. I do believe they have had a problem with zergy encounters, both in Dungeons and Open PvE.
However, the last few months of patches have introduced challenging...yes, CHALLENGING....content on a consistent basis.
And it's permanent.
This seems to be the direction from here on out with GW2. Try the new Twilight Arbor dungeon and tell me what you think.
Now that they've got the challenge portion right, they just need to have the risk:reward ratio adjusted.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
The problem with the trinity is that it reduces fights to their least common denominator, resulting in everyone being forced to follow the script for the fight or fail. You don't learn and beat the fight, you learn to follow the script and beat the fight as a result. Without the trinity you get to maintain a dynamic element to the fight where even if things go wrong you can recover and still succeed. Tank or healer dies in a trinity based fight and it's effectively game over. Or to summarize, what do you hear if something goes wrong?
The problem with the trinity is that it reduces fights to their least common denominator, resulting in everyone being forced to follow the script for the fight or fail. You don't learn and beat the fight, you learn to follow the script and beat the fight as a result. Without the trinity you get to maintain a dynamic element to the fight where even if things go wrong you can recover and still succeed. Tank or healer dies in a trinity based fight and it's effectively game over. Or to summarize, what do you hear if something goes wrong?
Trinity - Wipe and reset.
GW2 no trinity - Hang on, I'll try to get you up.
I can understand your preference, but the last couple of lines simplify it a bit. Plenty of times I've ressed players during battles, tank, healer, support, dps.
Don't forget in a lot of games dungeons lead onto raids where the ability to get people back on their feet can often be used.
I'm all for people liking a variety of formats, but there's no real need to bash one just because you prefer another.
*Sneezes* Damn allergies(Don't ask me what I'm allergic to)
Apparently this is a recent thread, but in the end, very thankful GW2 doesn't have the trinity...
Because almost if not all the other MMORPGs have it...
And Teq's mechanics would have been useless...
because then the challenge would be halved...
Oh and maybe if they had the trinity they could disable the aggro or whatever...maybe.
In the end...so glad there is no trinity for [this] game.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I prefer a trinity as well. I feel GW2 is succesful as it is inspite of not having a trinity - not because it. It's a great looking game - and fun to level in. But the lack of trinity really hurts it in organized PvE.
The first no accountability and no 'easy' cooperation. With a trinity each player knows what they should be doing and every other players knows roughly what the other players should be doing. Its easy to see them fail or succeed. This means that groups are going to work much better together. Think of a football team - because each player has specific responsibilities you have a better handle on who screwed up. And you know what should be happening.. The offensive lineman knows that running backs shouldn't be blowing by him. The quarterback knows he has to throw the ball to someone open - and that guy knows he has to catch it.
This is why teamwork is so much stronger in a trinity game. GW2 at best is like a bike race.. There is some teamwork going on - but lots of guys don't bother - and most don't know what they should do. And overall its about being the best bike rider..
The second problem is encounter design. Because the designer knows what the players responsibilities are they can design encounters that stress each individual aspect - forcing them to do different things. Going back to the football example the defense can rush the quarterback with everyone - overwhelming the line-man and putting the responsibility on the QB. You can do the same kind of things in MMO. You can make fights that stress the DPS or at times force the healer to do something special. It really opens up a world of possibilities for you. In GW2 though they have to make the fights interesting with gimmicks. Is much harder on the designer and leads overall to a less fun feeling in PvE.
I disagree with the OP a bit. I feel that GW2 vindiicated the 'seperate roles' approach to PvE.. I often imagine how nice GW2 would be if that had roles in PvE (or the ability to assume such roles via a toggle at least). I don't think making everyone a DPSer works.
And let's be clear that IS what works in GW2. The theorycrafters have compelling proof for why every other 'support' build is useless and the player base has respsonded by demanding full zerker gear and builds for the PvE content.
for me part of me misses the holy trinity and part of me doesn't. I like the fact that you can bring almost any combination of classes to a dungeon and do it fairly well. however i do miss the "advanced" scripts developers can put in because they have the holy trinity.
for me part of me misses the holy trinity and part of me doesn't. I like the fact that you can bring almost any combination of classes to a dungeon and do it fairly well. however i do miss the "advanced" scripts developers can put in because they have the holy trinity.
"Attack tank" is not advanced script in any imaginable way.
The "trinity" is a crutch. It makes the player a non-hero entity of a collaboration of The Sword (DPS), The Shield (tank) , and The Body (healer). You're nothing without the other two, and games penalize you otherwise.
Leveling in a trinity based game is a nightmare for anything other than a DPS, unless you have direct friends (because honestly, even in those games the open world content is hardly grouped; only dungeons/raids get grouped). Healers die far too much, killing nearly nothing, and even in groups hardly get XP (thanks to healing not counting, but damage to mob only). Tanks just take forever to kill something, making leveling them a rather slow affair.
"But, but ...leveling doesn't matter! End-game is all that matters!!1!!111!". That's one of the biggest bullshit statements that I've always hated. Leveling is as much as a part of the game as other parts are; it's also the area that teaches the players the fundamentals of the game's mechanics.
As for a direct response related to GW2, I'd say it's alternative mechanics have done wonders as a substitution for Trinity. The most basic of them is that everyone gets their own heal, and that means everyone is directly responsible for their own healthbar. The second mechanic of note is the dodge mechanic, which helps inflate movement's importance; staying out of the red circles, watching the boss's animations for the big one-hitters, and so on. This again puts the player's responsibility for themselves at the forefront. The last mechanic of note is the ability of everyone -including NPC's- to be able to resurrect downed and dead allies. That last one helps garner player friendliness amongst those within the same server.
To sum up what's mentioned above: GW2 applies self responsibility to the individual player. A far better system than that of being a "crutch" or just a broken piece of a puzzle.
Well actually a lot of games healers and tanks actually do a lot of damage . Pretty sure in WOW I used to 2 shot players with my warrior in PvP . Also in RIFT there was different souls available for dps tank classes so the trinity is quite good because you can switch roles you just needed the correct gear for tank or dps etc .
So yep GW2 is pretty dull simply because there is no tactics . The game is just one big ZERG.
Yeah, GW2 is probably my favorite mmo due to lack of any better choices. Unfortunately, as someone who supported this game, I also admit a bit more role definition could've gone a long way, and even though it was said at launch how the lack of role definition will hinder dungeons as a whole, people blindly did not listen and now they see it for themselves. It's one of those things some people have to experience to believe.
What they did do right, among other great things, was having dps classes feel/play/flow differently from one another while maintaining damage. The fact they did such a great job making all the dps classes feel very different from one another, just makes me wonder how they could've revolutionized the other main roles. They wouldn't need a defined tank class, but instead focus on a healer and crowd control class. If there is one company I think has the knowledge to really make interesting crowd control classes, its Anet.
For me it's not important to have a dedicated tank, healer and DPS. But I do think that having different roles helps to promote team-work and tactics. Something that GW2 really lacks. In almost all dungeons its all about DPS. And even the support classes are specced for DPS and focus on DPS. Because support stuff like boons are done for you automcatically in most cases. No need to think about it. Just spam your buttons and there you go.
For DPS players who only care about big numbers GW2 is a great game, no doubt about that. But I wonder why have group play at all? At this point ANet might even get rid of group play altogether and turn dungeons into one player instances. I mean if it's all about self-sufficient classes why being forced to find four other players in the first place?
For me it's not important to have a dedicated tank, healer and DPS. But I do think that having different roles helps to promote team-work and tactics. Something that GW2 really lacks. In almost all dungeons its all about DPS. And even the support classes are specced for DPS and focus on DPS. Because support stuff like boons are done for you automcatically in most cases. No need to think about it. Just spam your buttons and there you go.
For DPS players who only care about big numbers GW2 is a great game, no doubt about that. But I wonder why have group play at all? At this point ANet might even get rid of group play altogether and turn dungeons into one player instances. I mean if it's all about self-sufficient classes why being forced to find four other players in the first place?
If only thing that makes you group is "i cant do it otherwise" you pretty much should choose something other than multiplayer game.
Actually no predefined set in stone roles requires coordination and teamwork, otoh trintiy does not.
I do not think its a matter of taste, but a matter of mechanics.
The holy trinity serves its purpose in given games, and doesnt exist in others.
Ive been both tank, dps and healer in many games, being my longest run of almost 4 straight years (and them some more days to try new expansions...oh the pain) with my night elf priest in WoW and, to be completely honest, i was having more fun back in WoW than i am in GW2...but back then i was a newbie to the genre.
Today, im having still lots of fun in GW2, but in a more rewarding way as a player thanks to the non existence of the holy trinity.
GW2 rewards skill over gear, rewards experiment over fixed builds, rewards improvised tactical gameplay over fixed tactical sets, and my only deepest sadness, if i can call it that, is the lack of courage that ANet had in not going the full distance by bringing cross profession skill system from GW1, wich would make GW2 the best d&d mmorpg out there and not just the best non-trinity one.
But, and to reply to the OP, if GW2 had the holy trinity, i wouldnt be playing it. I would be playing RIFT.
Originally posted by didjerama Originally posted by Ecocesfor me part of me misses the holy trinity and part of me doesn't. I like the fact that you can bring almost any combination of classes to a dungeon and do it fairly well. however i do miss the "advanced" scripts developers can put in because they have the holy trinity.
"Attack tank" is not advanced script in any imaginable way.
And thats ONLY way a trinity can work.
Yah, very advanced lol
More advanced than "Attack whatever is closest".
A non-trinity system can work but GW2 implemented their version so badly it makes it seem that a non-trinity system can not work.
ArenaNet intended to a different kind of trinity consisting of damage, support and control but it was largely abandoned(and no, a couple skills with long cooldowns does not turn a Guardian into a support class).
Hopefully upcoming MMOs with non-trinity systems(like EQ Next) can implement a non-trinity correctly and repair the damage that GW2 has done.
Originally posted by Ecocesfor me part of me misses the holy trinity and part of me doesn't. I like the fact that you can bring almost any combination of classes to a dungeon and do it fairly well. however i do miss the "advanced" scripts developers can put in because they have the holy trinity.
"Attack tank" is not advanced script in any imaginable way.
And thats ONLY way a trinity can work.
Yah, very advanced lol
More advanced than "Attack whatever is closest".
A non-trinity system can work but GW2 implemented their version so badly it makes it seem that a non-trinity system can not work.
ArenaNet intended to a different kind of trinity consisting of damage, support and control but it was largely abandoned(and no, a couple skills with long cooldowns does not turn a Guardian into a support class).
Hopefully upcoming MMOs with non-trinity systems(like EQ Next) can implement a non-trinity correctly and repair the damage that GW2 has done.
System is actually good, what sucks and what ANet still has to improve a lot is actual encounter design that actually uses that system. I guess its a very slow process.
And guardian has quite a few support options besides "couple of skills on long cooldown" but very few are actually needed - by encounter design again.
Fact is that players who take all that system offers faceroll the content while those who dont coordinate struggle with it. Just remember how many people had a problem with simple thing like doing dodge daily, let alone one daily that was removed - kill something through combo field/skill (that required *some* actual coordination).
I hate the fact that mmo's are designed around instanced dungeons and classes designed to be played in these dungeons. They make a big massive world but everyone plays in their own little instance dungeon. It's pointless having a world at all in that case.
The "trinity" is a crutch. It makes the player a non-hero entity of a collaboration of The Sword (DPS), The Shield (tank) , and The Body (healer). You're nothing without the other two, and games penalize you otherwise.
*snip*
This sums it up nicely really. If you want to play a bit more tanky in GW2 then you can do just that, it's just not required at all. The trinity is just a dumbed down system when you think about it. You stand there, hold agro, he heals you and the others kill the beast. That's the basis of the whole trinity and if the beast had ANY, and I do mean ANY, brains at all it would just kill the healer and be done with the rest in no time.
Think about the trinity for a while, add in some lf tank, lf healer spam and if you still want to play that type of game, then by all means do so. Please just don't advocate turning GW2 into the same old system as so many other games.
The "trinity" is a crutch. It makes the player a non-hero entity of a collaboration of The Sword (DPS), The Shield (tank) , and The Body (healer). You're nothing without the other two, and games penalize you otherwise.
*snip*
This sums it up nicely really. If you want to play a bit more tanky in GW2 then you can do just that, it's just not required at all. The trinity is just a dumbed down system when you think about it. You stand there, hold agro, he heals you and the others kill the beast. That's the basis of the whole trinity and if the beast had ANY, and I do mean ANY, brains at all it would just kill the healer and be done with the rest in no time.
Think about the trinity for a while, add in some lf tank, lf healer spam and if you still want to play that type of game, then by all means do so. Please just don't advocate turning GW2 into the same old system as so many other games.
People confuse trinity with overall encounter design.
What is trinity in its entirety?
One person holds "aggro" and has big health pool/defences, another has skill that fills that health pool and another has skills that reduces health pool of baddy. It can only work in ONE predefined way, and because of how its set up CANNOT work any other way.
EVERYTHING else in encounter is not linked to trinity and can be done with any other system (example: dont stand in the red circle, positioning, adds, phases...)
Trinity is really oversimplification of combat. Some people like oversimplifications, but to call it "advanced" "complex" "require coordination" is just not understanding what youre talking about, since its far far away from all those things.
And it has one VERY nasty sidefect, currently very apparent if FFXIV, even if people claim they have queues for srvers people wait 1+ hour in dungeon queue because you need quite specific classes in the mix. SE even bribed players in playing one of those classes and its still not working, so question arises: why have it in the first place when you need to go to extreme "bribes" to even get people to play it. Its obvious most people dont like it.
So I'm playing FFXIV alongside GW2, and I have to say -- KEEP TRINITY OUT OF GW2 (thank you).
Not that it's bad...
I rolled a DPS first in FFXIV, and that bored me to tears (I did a pugilist, and I was hoping I can macro the three attacks that could be chained ala skill 1 auto-attack in GW2). Then I thought, "why the heck am I playing a DPS if I can do that in GW2?" So I re-rolled a healer, and, man, I do miss healing people. I haven't tried dungeon healing yet, but having to top off random strangers when they're struggling is fun.
Like what others had said, if you want a trinity, play another game. You can play GW2 with another game since GW2 doesn't have a sub.
For me it's not important to have a dedicated tank, healer and DPS. But I do think that having different roles helps to promote team-work and tactics. Something that GW2 really lacks. In almost all dungeons its all about DPS. And even the support classes are specced for DPS and focus on DPS. Because support stuff like boons are done for you automcatically in most cases. No need to think about it. Just spam your buttons and there you go.
For DPS players who only care about big numbers GW2 is a great game, no doubt about that. But I wonder why have group play at all? At this point ANet might even get rid of group play altogether and turn dungeons into one player instances. I mean if it's all about self-sufficient classes why being forced to find four other players in the first place?
If only thing that makes you group is "i cant do it otherwise" you pretty much should choose something other than multiplayer game.
Actually no predefined set in stone roles requires coordination and teamwork, otoh trintiy does not.
If you actually read carefully you might have noticed that I actually prefer group play with team-work and tactics. Thanks for bashing me.
And I don't know how you can claim that a trinity based setup does not promote coordination and teamwork? Funny, because some of the harder encounters in other MMOs required plenty of communication in order to defeat the boss.
A not trinity based game allows more room creativity, yes. But only if there are different roles. Imagine, for example, a group of 5 players having all the same class. And imagine this class had only one attack spell. And those 5 players would stand there attacking the boss. pew. pew. I don't know about you, but personally I would find this very boring.
But this is how PvE in GW2 actually feels in many cases. 4 zerker warriors attacking the boss. zerg. zerg. zerg.
As you said somewhere below the major reason in GW2 is the lack of proper encounter design. Now the question is why did ANet design them that way? Because they were lazy? Or maybe because they had to use the least common denominator? I don't know. But the current design makes many aspects of the professions irrelevant.
I still believe that having multiple roles makes things interesting. Though there should be always more than one combination possible. The holy trinity is a bad example because it doesn't give room for much flexibility. But GW2's PvE design isn't on the other side of the extreme. Way too simple.
For me it's not important to have a dedicated tank, healer and DPS. But I do think that having different roles helps to promote team-work and tactics. Something that GW2 really lacks. In almost all dungeons its all about DPS. And even the support classes are specced for DPS and focus on DPS. Because support stuff like boons are done for you automcatically in most cases. No need to think about it. Just spam your buttons and there you go.
For DPS players who only care about big numbers GW2 is a great game, no doubt about that. But I wonder why have group play at all? At this point ANet might even get rid of group play altogether and turn dungeons into one player instances. I mean if it's all about self-sufficient classes why being forced to find four other players in the first place?
If only thing that makes you group is "i cant do it otherwise" you pretty much should choose something other than multiplayer game.
Actually no predefined set in stone roles requires coordination and teamwork, otoh trintiy does not.
If you actually read carefully you might have noticed that I actually prefer group play with team-work and tactics. Thanks for bashing me.
And I don't know how you can claim that a trinity based setup does not promote coordination and teamwork? Funny, because some of the harder encounters in other MMOs required plenty of communication in order to defeat the boss.
A not trinity based game allows more room creativity, yes. But only if there are different roles. Imagine, for example, a group of 5 players having all the same class. And imagine this class had only one attack spell. And those 5 players would stand there attacking the boss. pew. pew. I don't know about you, but personally I would find this very boring.
But this is how PvE in GW2 actually feels in many cases. 4 zerker warriors attacking the boss. zerg. zerg. zerg.
As you said somewhere below the major reason in GW2 is the lack of proper encounter design. Now the question is why did ANet design them that way? Because they were lazy? Or maybe because they had to use the least common denominator? I don't know. But the current design makes many aspects of the professions irrelevant.
I still believe that having multiple roles makes things interesting. Though there should be always more than one combination possible. The holy trinity is a bad example because it doesn't give room for much flexibility. But GW2's PvE design isn't on the other side of the extreme. Way too simple.
And that coordination and teamwork wasnt because of trinity but things other than trinity.
Nobody said anything about "No roles".
Mechanic "pull the lever" doesnt need any specific class. If you make it like "only healer can pull the lever and you must have healer with you to do it" it kinda sounds stoopid. but thats how trintiy works.
In above example its clear anyone can be assigned to be "lever puller" without arbitrary system imposed roles.
Trinity is confined around mechanics of the trintiy and theres no other way around it. If you have trinity you MUST design around it. GW2 doesnt have such limitations.
Why is encouter design not good? Probably because they, as players, couldnt get completely out of trinity mindset, but its anyones guess. Its fact their system provides much more opportunity. *shrug* hope it improves
And I don't know how you can claim that a trinity based setup does not promote coordination and teamwork? Funny, because some of the harder encounters in other MMOs required plenty of communication in order to defeat the boss.
Ah, I can offer my opinion on this. A trinity-based set-up actually doesn't promote nearly as much coordination and teamwork as a non-trinity based system. This is due to the strict scripted nature of most of these fights. I did my time in WoW, wound up specializing on a Pally tank and a Hunter. When dpsing as a hunter communication was pretty much nil. All dps has to do is follow the script, stand in the right places and max out the rotation. When tanking communications were no better. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of communications was handled by that raid mod that warns you in advance of the next big attack or event happening. Listen to the mod, follow the script, win.
It's the unscripted nature of the non-trinity style that results in a greater need for communications. Look at the latest Twilight Arbor release. Pugs without comms were screaming it's too hard. My first run was with my guild and we were all on TS. We completed the dungeon with a moderate degree of challenge because no one had the script before hand (like with every WoW raid for example) and we did trial and error. Now, that's not to say we didn't take on roles as fights progressed. However they weren't the tank/healer/dps generic role triad. It would be more along the lines of "if you get the ooze pheromone on you, drag the oozes to the puddles", or "you three kill the fire dudes while we lead the oozes through the path to the end". This took a lot more coordination due to the fact that they could change as the situation changed.
But, to summarize, the trinity does not promote as much coordination and teamwork because of the script. You don't react to changing situations, you follow the script. When there's a mod ring-leading the fight for you it's even less.
Why is encouter design not good? Probably because they, as players, couldnt get completely out of trinity mindset, but its anyones guess. Its fact their system provides much more opportunity. *shrug* hope it improves
I think we are sometimes forgetting Gw2 is only a year out. And the battle system it uses is quite fresh. I think they are still learning. They had to start with simple concepts like world bosses to see what players (or player pugs) can do. I think recent additions actually show they are experimenting more. Sky pirate dungeon was pretty tough. Tequatl fight is very challenging and tbh without some form of TS it's very unlikely you beat it. New TA path, there are quite a few mechanics that are very nontrivial. Even Queen's gauntlet was interesting (even if solo) content.
GW2 was entirely too zergy for me. PVE was just PVP, but with mobs.
The problem with the trinity, in my opinion, is the archaic notion that tanks and healers should output pathetic damage. Give tanks and healers the ability to damage too, at least in PVE if you're concerned they'd be OP in PVP.
BUT OMG EVERYONE WILL WANT TO PLAY TANK AND HEALERRR!! I don't think that's the case. Most people gravitate toward a particular class because they like how it plays, looks...the style. I always like stealthy rogues and I couldn't see myself playing anything but.
GW2 was entirely too zergy for me. PVE was just PVP, but with mobs.
The problem with the trinity, in my opinion, is the archaic notion that tanks and healers should output pathetic damage. Give tanks and healers the ability to damage too, at least in PVE if you're concerned they'd be OP in PVP.
BUT OMG EVERYONE WILL WANT TO PLAY TANK AND HEALERRR!! I don't think that's the case. Most people gravitate toward a particular class because they like how it plays, looks...the style. I always like stealthy rogues and I couldn't see myself playing anything but.
Honestly, it's not the issue of not doing damage. It's issue, most people don't want to be responsible in raid. After all you can always spec differently outside of raid. Still most people didn't fancy healing or tanking in raid. I'm not exactly sure about tanking, but support is sort of love/hate relationship. Either you like to be support and help others to succeed or you want to be that power that kills the boss, not the power that works from behind.
Comments
I like GW2's direction. I do believe they have had a problem with zergy encounters, both in Dungeons and Open PvE.
However, the last few months of patches have introduced challenging...yes, CHALLENGING....content on a consistent basis.
And it's permanent.
This seems to be the direction from here on out with GW2. Try the new Twilight Arbor dungeon and tell me what you think.
Now that they've got the challenge portion right, they just need to have the risk:reward ratio adjusted.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
The problem with the trinity is that it reduces fights to their least common denominator, resulting in everyone being forced to follow the script for the fight or fail. You don't learn and beat the fight, you learn to follow the script and beat the fight as a result. Without the trinity you get to maintain a dynamic element to the fight where even if things go wrong you can recover and still succeed. Tank or healer dies in a trinity based fight and it's effectively game over. Or to summarize, what do you hear if something goes wrong?
Trinity - Wipe and reset.
GW2 no trinity - Hang on, I'll try to get you up.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I can understand your preference, but the last couple of lines simplify it a bit. Plenty of times I've ressed players during battles, tank, healer, support, dps.
Don't forget in a lot of games dungeons lead onto raids where the ability to get people back on their feet can often be used.
I'm all for people liking a variety of formats, but there's no real need to bash one just because you prefer another.
*Sneezes* Damn allergies(Don't ask me what I'm allergic to)
Apparently this is a recent thread, but in the end, very thankful GW2 doesn't have the trinity...
Because almost if not all the other MMORPGs have it...
And Teq's mechanics would have been useless...
because then the challenge would be halved...
Oh and maybe if they had the trinity they could disable the aggro or whatever...maybe.
In the end...so glad there is no trinity for [this] game.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I prefer a trinity as well. I feel GW2 is succesful as it is inspite of not having a trinity - not because it. It's a great looking game - and fun to level in. But the lack of trinity really hurts it in organized PvE.
The first no accountability and no 'easy' cooperation. With a trinity each player knows what they should be doing and every other players knows roughly what the other players should be doing. Its easy to see them fail or succeed. This means that groups are going to work much better together. Think of a football team - because each player has specific responsibilities you have a better handle on who screwed up. And you know what should be happening.. The offensive lineman knows that running backs shouldn't be blowing by him. The quarterback knows he has to throw the ball to someone open - and that guy knows he has to catch it.
This is why teamwork is so much stronger in a trinity game. GW2 at best is like a bike race.. There is some teamwork going on - but lots of guys don't bother - and most don't know what they should do. And overall its about being the best bike rider..
The second problem is encounter design. Because the designer knows what the players responsibilities are they can design encounters that stress each individual aspect - forcing them to do different things. Going back to the football example the defense can rush the quarterback with everyone - overwhelming the line-man and putting the responsibility on the QB. You can do the same kind of things in MMO. You can make fights that stress the DPS or at times force the healer to do something special. It really opens up a world of possibilities for you. In GW2 though they have to make the fights interesting with gimmicks. Is much harder on the designer and leads overall to a less fun feeling in PvE.
I disagree with the OP a bit. I feel that GW2 vindiicated the 'seperate roles' approach to PvE.. I often imagine how nice GW2 would be if that had roles in PvE (or the ability to assume such roles via a toggle at least). I don't think making everyone a DPSer works.
And let's be clear that IS what works in GW2. The theorycrafters have compelling proof for why every other 'support' build is useless and the player base has respsonded by demanding full zerker gear and builds for the PvE content.
for me part of me misses the holy trinity and part of me doesn't. I like the fact that you can bring almost any combination of classes to a dungeon and do it fairly well. however i do miss the "advanced" scripts developers can put in because they have the holy trinity.
"Attack tank" is not advanced script in any imaginable way.
And thats ONLY way a trinity can work.
Yah, very advanced lol
Well actually a lot of games healers and tanks actually do a lot of damage . Pretty sure in WOW I used to 2 shot players with my warrior in PvP . Also in RIFT there was different souls available for dps tank classes so the trinity is quite good because you can switch roles you just needed the correct gear for tank or dps etc .
So yep GW2 is pretty dull simply because there is no tactics . The game is just one big ZERG.
Yeah, GW2 is probably my favorite mmo due to lack of any better choices. Unfortunately, as someone who supported this game, I also admit a bit more role definition could've gone a long way, and even though it was said at launch how the lack of role definition will hinder dungeons as a whole, people blindly did not listen and now they see it for themselves. It's one of those things some people have to experience to believe.
What they did do right, among other great things, was having dps classes feel/play/flow differently from one another while maintaining damage. The fact they did such a great job making all the dps classes feel very different from one another, just makes me wonder how they could've revolutionized the other main roles. They wouldn't need a defined tank class, but instead focus on a healer and crowd control class. If there is one company I think has the knowledge to really make interesting crowd control classes, its Anet.
For me it's not important to have a dedicated tank, healer and DPS. But I do think that having different roles helps to promote team-work and tactics. Something that GW2 really lacks. In almost all dungeons its all about DPS. And even the support classes are specced for DPS and focus on DPS. Because support stuff like boons are done for you automcatically in most cases. No need to think about it. Just spam your buttons and there you go.
For DPS players who only care about big numbers GW2 is a great game, no doubt about that. But I wonder why have group play at all? At this point ANet might even get rid of group play altogether and turn dungeons into one player instances. I mean if it's all about self-sufficient classes why being forced to find four other players in the first place?
If only thing that makes you group is "i cant do it otherwise" you pretty much should choose something other than multiplayer game.
Actually no predefined set in stone roles requires coordination and teamwork, otoh trintiy does not.
I do not think its a matter of taste, but a matter of mechanics.
The holy trinity serves its purpose in given games, and doesnt exist in others.
Ive been both tank, dps and healer in many games, being my longest run of almost 4 straight years (and them some more days to try new expansions...oh the pain) with my night elf priest in WoW and, to be completely honest, i was having more fun back in WoW than i am in GW2...but back then i was a newbie to the genre.
Today, im having still lots of fun in GW2, but in a more rewarding way as a player thanks to the non existence of the holy trinity.
GW2 rewards skill over gear, rewards experiment over fixed builds, rewards improvised tactical gameplay over fixed tactical sets, and my only deepest sadness, if i can call it that, is the lack of courage that ANet had in not going the full distance by bringing cross profession skill system from GW1, wich would make GW2 the best d&d mmorpg out there and not just the best non-trinity one.
But, and to reply to the OP, if GW2 had the holy trinity, i wouldnt be playing it. I would be playing RIFT.
And thats ONLY way a trinity can work.
Yah, very advanced lol
More advanced than "Attack whatever is closest".
A non-trinity system can work but GW2 implemented their version so badly it makes it seem that a non-trinity system can not work.
ArenaNet intended to a different kind of trinity consisting of damage, support and control but it was largely abandoned(and no, a couple skills with long cooldowns does not turn a Guardian into a support class).
Hopefully upcoming MMOs with non-trinity systems(like EQ Next) can implement a non-trinity correctly and repair the damage that GW2 has done.
System is actually good, what sucks and what ANet still has to improve a lot is actual encounter design that actually uses that system. I guess its a very slow process.
And guardian has quite a few support options besides "couple of skills on long cooldown" but very few are actually needed - by encounter design again.
Fact is that players who take all that system offers faceroll the content while those who dont coordinate struggle with it. Just remember how many people had a problem with simple thing like doing dodge daily, let alone one daily that was removed - kill something through combo field/skill (that required *some* actual coordination).
This sums it up nicely really. If you want to play a bit more tanky in GW2 then you can do just that, it's just not required at all. The trinity is just a dumbed down system when you think about it. You stand there, hold agro, he heals you and the others kill the beast. That's the basis of the whole trinity and if the beast had ANY, and I do mean ANY, brains at all it would just kill the healer and be done with the rest in no time.
Think about the trinity for a while, add in some lf tank, lf healer spam and if you still want to play that type of game, then by all means do so. Please just don't advocate turning GW2 into the same old system as so many other games.
People confuse trinity with overall encounter design.
What is trinity in its entirety?
One person holds "aggro" and has big health pool/defences, another has skill that fills that health pool and another has skills that reduces health pool of baddy. It can only work in ONE predefined way, and because of how its set up CANNOT work any other way.
EVERYTHING else in encounter is not linked to trinity and can be done with any other system (example: dont stand in the red circle, positioning, adds, phases...)
Trinity is really oversimplification of combat. Some people like oversimplifications, but to call it "advanced" "complex" "require coordination" is just not understanding what youre talking about, since its far far away from all those things.
And it has one VERY nasty sidefect, currently very apparent if FFXIV, even if people claim they have queues for srvers people wait 1+ hour in dungeon queue because you need quite specific classes in the mix. SE even bribed players in playing one of those classes and its still not working, so question arises: why have it in the first place when you need to go to extreme "bribes" to even get people to play it. Its obvious most people dont like it.
So I'm playing FFXIV alongside GW2, and I have to say -- KEEP TRINITY OUT OF GW2 (thank you).
Not that it's bad...
I rolled a DPS first in FFXIV, and that bored me to tears (I did a pugilist, and I was hoping I can macro the three attacks that could be chained ala skill 1 auto-attack in GW2). Then I thought, "why the heck am I playing a DPS if I can do that in GW2?" So I re-rolled a healer, and, man, I do miss healing people. I haven't tried dungeon healing yet, but having to top off random strangers when they're struggling is fun.
Like what others had said, if you want a trinity, play another game. You can play GW2 with another game since GW2 doesn't have a sub.
If you actually read carefully you might have noticed that I actually prefer group play with team-work and tactics. Thanks for bashing me.
And I don't know how you can claim that a trinity based setup does not promote coordination and teamwork? Funny, because some of the harder encounters in other MMOs required plenty of communication in order to defeat the boss.
A not trinity based game allows more room creativity, yes. But only if there are different roles. Imagine, for example, a group of 5 players having all the same class. And imagine this class had only one attack spell. And those 5 players would stand there attacking the boss. pew. pew. I don't know about you, but personally I would find this very boring.
But this is how PvE in GW2 actually feels in many cases. 4 zerker warriors attacking the boss. zerg. zerg. zerg.
As you said somewhere below the major reason in GW2 is the lack of proper encounter design. Now the question is why did ANet design them that way? Because they were lazy? Or maybe because they had to use the least common denominator? I don't know. But the current design makes many aspects of the professions irrelevant.
I still believe that having multiple roles makes things interesting. Though there should be always more than one combination possible. The holy trinity is a bad example because it doesn't give room for much flexibility. But GW2's PvE design isn't on the other side of the extreme. Way too simple.
And that coordination and teamwork wasnt because of trinity but things other than trinity.
Nobody said anything about "No roles".
Mechanic "pull the lever" doesnt need any specific class. If you make it like "only healer can pull the lever and you must have healer with you to do it" it kinda sounds stoopid. but thats how trintiy works.
In above example its clear anyone can be assigned to be "lever puller" without arbitrary system imposed roles.
Trinity is confined around mechanics of the trintiy and theres no other way around it. If you have trinity you MUST design around it. GW2 doesnt have such limitations.
Why is encouter design not good? Probably because they, as players, couldnt get completely out of trinity mindset, but its anyones guess. Its fact their system provides much more opportunity. *shrug* hope it improves
Ah, I can offer my opinion on this. A trinity-based set-up actually doesn't promote nearly as much coordination and teamwork as a non-trinity based system. This is due to the strict scripted nature of most of these fights. I did my time in WoW, wound up specializing on a Pally tank and a Hunter. When dpsing as a hunter communication was pretty much nil. All dps has to do is follow the script, stand in the right places and max out the rotation. When tanking communications were no better. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of communications was handled by that raid mod that warns you in advance of the next big attack or event happening. Listen to the mod, follow the script, win.
It's the unscripted nature of the non-trinity style that results in a greater need for communications. Look at the latest Twilight Arbor release. Pugs without comms were screaming it's too hard. My first run was with my guild and we were all on TS. We completed the dungeon with a moderate degree of challenge because no one had the script before hand (like with every WoW raid for example) and we did trial and error. Now, that's not to say we didn't take on roles as fights progressed. However they weren't the tank/healer/dps generic role triad. It would be more along the lines of "if you get the ooze pheromone on you, drag the oozes to the puddles", or "you three kill the fire dudes while we lead the oozes through the path to the end". This took a lot more coordination due to the fact that they could change as the situation changed.
But, to summarize, the trinity does not promote as much coordination and teamwork because of the script. You don't react to changing situations, you follow the script. When there's a mod ring-leading the fight for you it's even less.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I think we are sometimes forgetting Gw2 is only a year out. And the battle system it uses is quite fresh. I think they are still learning. They had to start with simple concepts like world bosses to see what players (or player pugs) can do. I think recent additions actually show they are experimenting more. Sky pirate dungeon was pretty tough. Tequatl fight is very challenging and tbh without some form of TS it's very unlikely you beat it. New TA path, there are quite a few mechanics that are very nontrivial. Even Queen's gauntlet was interesting (even if solo) content.
GW2 was entirely too zergy for me. PVE was just PVP, but with mobs.
The problem with the trinity, in my opinion, is the archaic notion that tanks and healers should output pathetic damage. Give tanks and healers the ability to damage too, at least in PVE if you're concerned they'd be OP in PVP.
BUT OMG EVERYONE WILL WANT TO PLAY TANK AND HEALERRR!! I don't think that's the case. Most people gravitate toward a particular class because they like how it plays, looks...the style. I always like stealthy rogues and I couldn't see myself playing anything but.
Honestly, it's not the issue of not doing damage. It's issue, most people don't want to be responsible in raid. After all you can always spec differently outside of raid. Still most people didn't fancy healing or tanking in raid. I'm not exactly sure about tanking, but support is sort of love/hate relationship. Either you like to be support and help others to succeed or you want to be that power that kills the boss, not the power that works from behind.