What this looks like to me, is a huge, single player game in shared space.
Aside from a few boss creatures, and some PvP options, what is the need for any other players?
I predict this will be another of the many games that might sell some boxes out of the gate, but ultimately have little staying power.
And I see nothing to change the opinion I've had following this game for a long while: it looks to be an average MMO (like so many others) with a famous IP name on the box for the express purpose of selling a lot of copies.
Originally posted by Vidir I Think the game maybe will at first look like elder scroll game with nice atmosphare and su but soon you will be depending on raids large grouping and pvp if you wish to build up your characters skills and gear.
So far they have said that PvP, Adventure zones, Master dungeons and the 50+ 50++ content will all get you the same type of gear. As well as earn you veteran points to be able to purchase gear. So you don't have to do just one type of end game content to get the best gear. You can play the way you want and still earn it.
It's funny how ESO sems to be such a lightning rod for complaints about the MMO genre in general. You've got something you don't like about MMOs? You can put ESO somewhere in your rant and make it fit.
(snip)
"it's not a sandbox" - trendy 2009 opinion noted.
It's an MMO in the TES universe. What's not to like?
If you were expecting something different maybe this would be a good time to gaze at your bellybutton, and ponder what you thought it would be...then ask yourself "just what part of MMO did I not understand?"
It's a trendy 2012-13 opinion (look at the upcoming releases).
and why wouldnt we expect that when the Elder Scrolls games are some of the most successful SP sandboxes in history? If they made a Don't Starve MMO i would expect that to be a sandbox too.
The word "sandbox" has become a cliche used by ad departments in their hype machine to describe everything under the sun. It's as meaningful now describing MMOs as the words "good" and "nice."
Even calling the SP ES games sandboxes is a stretch: there are no permanent changes to the world except some NPC dialogue.
You attack Windhelm with the Stormcloaks, go out and back in and the town is restored magically to it's pre-destruction self. The only thing that changes is that now you have Stormcloak guards and a new Thane.
Attack Solitude with the Stormcloaks and you will see a steady supply of defenders spawn out of thin air--not even close to doors to make it seem like they're coming out of a building.
There are quests and quest givers who send you to specific locations to kill a specific NPC and grab some item they drop or have near them.
There are levels and level progression.
There is no house building except with the paid extra content that came a couple of years after release.
When you buy decorations for your house, they happen instantly.
In short, ES games are just BIG, BIG worlds cleverly designed with hidden out of the way quests to give you the sandbox illusion without really being one.
I get tired of people calling them sandboxes. They are very good games, but Minecraft or Dwarf Fortress they ain't.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
"it should be all about exploration" - fine. But while we're at it I want a pause button... now THAT would be TES. Also... you do know that TES games are quest-driven, don't you? The difference is that there is no exclamation mark and they have other ways of giving them to you. Still, ultimately... go to place x and get item y... kill many things on the way.
I'll have to somewhat disagree with this one.
I think they are quest driven if you do the quests. A friend of mine played through morrowind and Oblivion and only did the few quests he found "out in the wild" so to speak. Didn't finish the main quest never did any of the guild quests.
Also, though I have found a few kill x quests in these games, they do seem to be about more than "killing x amount of things".
Last night in lotro, while doing those horrid hytbold dailies, I rescued 2 Rohirrim and killed 10 spiders. When I tried to engaged the Rohirrim in conversation not only did they not have any dialogue but they just vanished after a few seconds.
Yet, saving one of the grey manes was far more satisfying. Sure, the LOTRO quest is just a daily quest but many mmo's tend to have their quests a bit on the cheap.
I think ESO is sort of "doing right" in the case that you will find quests out in the world just like an Elder Scrolls game. But, in an elder scrolls game you can forgo the quests and still enjoy yourself. I wonder if the same can be true for this incarnation?
The only way to totally avoid quests in Skyrim is to talk to no one and go nowhere and even then, some courrier NPC somewhere will stop you and give you one whether you want it or not or an assasin will try to kill you and drop a note...
I'm not talking about following or not following the rebellion or Dragonborn or guild quest lines. The whole world and its many ruins and dungeons are quest driven - they can not be avoided.
Yes, they do a much better job of making some quests seem like organic consequences of exploration without hammering you over the head with hints about who you should talk to... but those main quests also do exist. They do avoid the "kill me 10 falmers" cliches but the 100 falmers will still be there between you and your goal at the end of the cave/ruin.
From what I know of ESO, they are doing the exact same thing: there are main quests lines and the necessary directions of where to go to next and who to talk to... and there are the quests in the wild you'll only see if you explore.
And even more so than in any SP ES game, yes, you can level all the way to 50 without doing any of them... there's this place called Cyrodiil, you know
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
once i found it wasn't based on skill centered character creation i knew it would continue to be a series of compromises with the current mmo standard fare. this strips one of the fundamental cores out of the game: being able to create the character you want, being who you want in the world of Tamriel. being a wizard who wears plate mail is not the same thing as being someone adept at wearing heavy armor and capable of casting destruction spells.
my friends and i were not looking for a series of themed settings in which to galavant around. we wanted The Elder Scrolls, but online, or coop. but apparently the dev world isn't capable of producing such a game yet. perhaps it never will be.
So last night I was watching this show, it was a dream come true as such a big fan of the series.
The show was about a guy that moved into an apartment and used a ring as a deposit. His landlord, Sauron was a real jerk. The two guys living nextdoor to him, Legolas and Gimli were a great comedic duo that lightened the storyline with their one liners. The main character, Frodo and his crazy old uncle Gandalf (who has a major crush on the landlords wife Galadriel) has a great friend that constantly drops buy, usually tripping, named Sam. The entire show has good ol Frodo chasing....
Ahh yes, a dream show created for all fans of Lords of the Rings, never thought I would see it happen...LoTRs every week on my TV.
That pretty much sums up this whole TESO fiasco. TES in name, not in content or design. Remove the names of people and places and no one would call it a TES rip off or clone, they would however state that its a little too much like DaoC.
I can safely say that this game will not have or be considered by fans as an elder scrolls game. This is just mass produced game that will have no intimate personal story. You will be lost in the 3rd person melee of wakamole hot bars and heal bars.
When you start skyrim you are tied up in a cart after being unconscious. All you can do is move your head and look around and listen to what the others are saying around you to get your bearings. Later you witness a dragon up close while still tied up. You cant expereience that 10 feet behind your body looking down at the action. You have to be able to look into the other persons eyes and see their pain and fear. 1 person all the way. No 3rd person. Also, dungeons are huge wide open casyms that whole armies could walk through. In skyrim they are dank, cramped, cant see anything without light, and easy to get lost in. Its such a simple thing that is completely lost on ESO. Also, the personal story of your character is just not there. Its what is your faction doing. What big battle is going on that you are supposed to be in with the rest of the world.
If there is going to be some big battle than you really need to feel like you are 1 of 1000s and you are on the front line with your buddies dieing all around you. 1st person. Now that would be an experience worthy of elder scrolls, but this wow-ifications of elderscrolls. No thank you. Will not buy when it comes out.
I can safely say that this game will not have or be considered by fans as an elder scrolls game. This is just mass produced game that will have no intimate personal story. You will be lost in the 3rd person melee of wakamole hot bars and heal bars.
When you start skyrim you are tied up in a cart after being unconscious. All you can do is move your head and look around and listen to what the others are saying around you to get your bearings. Later you witness a dragon up close while still tied up. You cant expereience that 10 feet behind your body looking down at the action. You have to be able to look into the other persons eyes and see their pain and fear. 1 person all the way. No 3rd person. Also, dungeons are huge wide open casyms that whole armies could walk through. In skyrim they are dank, cramped, cant see anything without light, and easy to get lost in. Its such a simple thing that is completely lost on ESO. Also, the personal story of your character is just not there. Its what is your faction doing. What big battle is going on that you are supposed to be in with the rest of the world.
If there is going to be some big battle than you really need to feel like you are 1 of 1000s and you are on the front line with your buddies dieing all around you. 1st person. Now that would be an experience worthy of elder scrolls, but this wow-ifications of elderscrolls. No thank you. Will not buy when it comes out.
Umm, they have first person in ESO. They have random caves that are solo only dungeons that should give you the same feeling. They have 200 vs 200 players on screen working (internally, don't know about reality) in Cyrodiil. They have a story for your character that you can follow for your faction. But, umm, ok, don't play.
You can't pause in a MMO, so you need a way to have skills with an ability bar. But you will only have 6 at a time with a weapon swap that can give you 6 more. You can not spam abilities because you will not have enough stamina or magicka to do so. You will have to use your left mouse button to swing your weapon or shoot your arrow or use your staff and the right mouse to block.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
So when this comes out and people wish it was the next Elder Scrolls installment basically Skyrim with multiplayer because that would be a better game I'm sure there will be people defending the MMO design. The same way people defended Neverwinter and SWTOR when both of those could have continued a franchise and been NWN 3 or KOTOR 3 instead of MMOs.
I would be cool if the MMOs had no effect or influence on the franchises but they do and IMHO it's not good. If we got NWN 3 or KOTOR 3 or the next installment of the Elder Scrolls series I wouldn't be complaining but those games are not being made and MMOs are to the complete detriment of those franchises imo.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
@artemisentr4: wonder why you fullquote a text an than miss to reference one single statement of this text...
@ OP: I'm still trying to figure out, why I seem to like Oblivion better than skyrim. Anyway, all Elderscroll titles are round based so far and all the fighting is balanced towards this certain "stop and go" technic. Realtime fighting woud need to be made much easier, otherwise you would be more dead than alive in higher levels.
@ Sovrath: your friend that "...played through morrowind and Oblivion and only did the few quests he found "out in the wild" so to speak." probably missed out one of the finest scripting I've ever seen in a CRPG (I refer to Oblivion). Of course the fact alone that you are free to skip all these wonderful missions speaks in favour of this game. In Oblivion you will also see a lot of surprising scipted details that are not part of a mission that you only would meet by exploring. I doubt that I ever will see such things in an MMO and I doubt ES:O will be an exception here.
Originally posted by xevier77 I can safely say that this game will not have or be considered by fans as an elder scrolls game. This is just mass produced game that will have no intimate personal story. You will be lost in the 3rd person melee of wakamole hot bars and heal bars.
When you start skyrim you are tied up in a cart after being unconscious. All you can do is move your head and look around and listen to what the others are saying around you to get your bearings. Later you witness a dragon up close while still tied up. You cant expereience that 10 feet behind your body looking down at the action. You have to be able to look into the other persons eyes and see their pain and fear. 1 person all the way. No 3rd person. Also, dungeons are huge wide open casyms that whole armies could walk through. In skyrim they are dank, cramped, cant see anything without light, and easy to get lost in. Its such a simple thing that is completely lost on ESO. Also, the personal story of your character is just not there. Its what is your faction doing. What big battle is going on that you are supposed to be in with the rest of the world.
If there is going to be some big battle than you really need to feel like you are 1 of 1000s and you are on the front line with your buddies dieing all around you. 1st person. Now that would be an experience worthy of elder scrolls, but this wow-ifications of elderscrolls. No thank you. Will not buy when it comes out.
I understand your frustration, I really do. But I think you have some misconceptions.
First, you start TES:O in a dungeon, as a prisoner. Molag Bal (I think he is the bad guy here) has imprisoned your soul in Coldharbour. Your first "quest" is to escape.
Second, can you name a dungeon you got lost in while playing Skyrim? I have yet to find one with the exception of Blackreach which is just a HUGE open cavern. All others I have been in have ONE path to follow, with maybe a spur here and there. Basically, if the door is locked, it goes nowhere. There are even quick exits out of the dungeons almost every time. Also, unless you mod Skyrim (for the PC), dungeons are bright cheery places, with the one exception of going through the Pilgrim's Path. There is no need what-so-ever for a torch or a Khajiit's Night-Eye ability.
Third, TES:O does have 1st person view for the players. Like Skyrim and older ES single games, it also has 3rd person views for the players that prefer that.
Fourth, and this is my opinion, personal stories have no place in an MMO with thousands (or more) players sharing the same story. How many Last Dragonborns do you want running around? The big battle is the fight for Cyrodiil, whether you care to or not. The "big story" though, is Molag Bal trying to take over Tamriel and your journey to stop him, with all the other players doing the same.
That being said, there are many, many other reasons why TES:O falls short for me for the Elder Scroll experience. I just do not like misinformation being bandied about. I will support legitimate gripes, though
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The only way to totally avoid quests in Skyrim is to talk to no one and go nowhere and even then, some courrier NPC somewhere will stop you and give you one whether you want it or not or an assasin will try to kill you and drop a note...
I'm not talking about following or not following the rebellion or Dragonborn or guild quest lines. The whole world and its many ruins and dungeons are quest driven - they can not be avoided.
Yes, they do a much better job of making some quests seem like organic consequences of exploration without hammering you over the head with hints about who you should talk to... but those main quests also do exist. They do avoid the "kill me 10 falmers" cliches but the 100 falmers will still be there between you and your goal at the end of the cave/ruin.
From what I know of ESO, they are doing the exact same thing: there are main quests lines and the necessary directions of where to go to next and who to talk to... and there are the quests in the wild you'll only see if you explore.
And even more so than in any SP ES game, yes, you can level all the way to 50 without doing any of them... there's this place called Cyrodiil, you know
Well of course there should be 100 falmers between me and my goal.
I think part of the issue, which you point out in your post, is that players seem to want a completely catered game that takes away everything they hate and adds everything they want.
So let's say that Elder Scrolls games are about creating the "representation" of a world. I say "representation" because towns and cities have only a few houses. I think the idea is to give the illusion of towns and cities but "somewhere out there" there are more people. So things are going to be happening and you can be part of it or not.
If you go into a falmer cave there will be falmer. You can either sneak past them or kill them. You don't have to engage most of them if you want to be a thief/Assassin character who doesn't engage. Some you might but that's life. These are not "Thief" games.
As far as avoiding quests, there is a difference between doing the quests offered and "not seeing quests ever".
So a courier offers you a quest? Don't do do it. Thats' the "world" idea, there are things happening and you might be contacted to do certain things and you can choose to be a part of it or not. So what if you encounter quests, no one is making you do it.
So "yes" my friend only did the few quests he found interesting but mostly explored. He espcially did this in Oblivion and Morrowind.
But you don't have to do any quests. The only caveat there is skyrim where, if you want to see dragons, you have to do the quest that includes guard towers.
I currently have a character who will only do the assassin's guild quest and the Vampire side of Dawnguard.
have another character who will only do the thieves guild quest.
Other than that? They explore and wander the land and get into conflicts. If someone offers them a quest and the quest does not pertain to their character then they sure as hell won't do them.
I think this is the reason why people call Elder Scrolls games "sandboxes" It's not because you can build (without mods or that expansion) but it's because you can create a character and adopt your own motivations.
Just because some players can't imagine any other way than to do the quests or take issue with the idea that they come across quests doesn't mean "other" players find their own good time.
I mean, I had a few play sessions that not only were about crafting but were about finding certain crafting items such as "linen". Basically delving into ruins to find linen. This was to satisfy a weapon mod's requirements.
I have another character who is all about "slaying dragons". If they see a dragon in the distance they drop everything and chase that dragon until the catch up and kill it. This can be a bit difficult because at a certain distance the game assumes you no longer are paying attention and removes it. So you have to be fast.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
That would suck! For me I really hope ESO brings in the same feel as Skyrim and past Elder Scroll games. I do not want to be playing a game that says Elder Scrolls but feels like something else...
I'm sure you can ignore the core game design and do your own thing in many SP games and MMO. Still, both the SP ES games and ESO are quest driven. Ignoring them is a choice but not the game design.
Skyrim levels the world around you to match your level (to some extent - there is still some level-gated content and some quest lines are not available at all until you reach a certain level) and this gives you the freedom to go off in any direction you choose. There are only two ways any MMO can duplicate that: 1) no levels at all or 2) heavy private phase instancing - neither of which are particularly attractive solutions. The 1st creates a grindy almost pointless game where you have no progression and the 2nd an isolating experience that hardly seems worth the bandwidth to play it online.
The reason MMOs gate content with level-appropriate zones is not due to laziness or lack of imagination - it's just the most reasonable way to provide many players at once with the ability to develop and improve a character and then tackle greater challenges without having to over-instance and phase the game.
The trade-off, obviously, is that you can't have the same freedom of movement an SP game can give you. I don't see any way around that. Do you?
EDIT: and before someone else mentions "mixed level zones" as a 3rd option, let me just say that, IMHO, all that results in is a creation of many sub-zones within a zone - the point is that there will still be places where you need to be a certain level to play in - it's just a variant on leveled zones.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by keithian exactly what Ashikuro and Nezix wrote. When you try beta, you will understand, until then Author and those below him, be more patient.
What you fellas said...
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Ever play Battle Spire? Redguard? Some did and liked them and some did not like them, but it was something different in the Elder Scrolls game line. ESO, like the eventual Fallout Online, is a logical progression. You don't have to play it. No one is compelling anyone to give it a try if they do not want to.
While I think this article pretty much sums up my feeling about ESO, I think that I really don't know enough YET to make an intelligent opinion. I do think ZeniMax has made changes to put the game more inline with what the ES series expectations are. What I don't know is if they are enough. I will play ESO...but if it is not up to what I expect...I will be outta there very quickly. That sentiment may be too true as I fear ESO is now being rushed to capitalize upon the "next-gen" console to which it will be ported. In that sense, ESO could just be a "money grab" and not be a true successor to the entire ES mantle.
I haven't played the beta or followed ESO closely, so it may be that I am completely off in my statements below......
It is my feeling that some games, series and concepts just aren't very well SUITED to make into an MMO. The Elder Scrolls Series is one of those. In order to make it into an MMO, you are going to have to lose a very large part of what made TES so appealing to many players and gave it the Elder Scrolls feel. This probably would have been true even had they gone the "sandbox" route....but assuradly so in going the Themepark route. This may (or may not) mean that ESO will be a fun game or a fun MMO.....but I highly doubt that it will feel very much like a fun Elder Scrolls game rather then a game simply set within the Elder Scrolls universe.
What would have been far better, IMO, is what many fans have been asking for. Simply to host co-op versions of a TES game on a persistant "server" and let relatively small groups of friends connect to and play on those servers...similar to what was done in the old Neverwinter Nights series.
Unfortunately many publishers think they need to turn everything into an MMO....some things just don't fit well as one. YMMV.
Originally posted by azzamasin I can safely say there's enough Elder Scrolls. But what there isn't enough of is long term MMO. I can only hope they design an MMO that will last and I fully intend to play this game but my fears is this will turn into another "3 monther"
Until devs start focusing on grouping at all levels like the MMORPGs of old, then most MMORPGs will continue to be "3 mothers," because it's pretty tough to crank out enough solo easy mode content to keep what is essentially an online single player RPG rolling.
Ultima Online didn't focus on group play at any point in time and it's still alive, over fifteen years later. Maybe it's the exception, but games have been focusing on grouping almost exclusively since WoW and the vast majority of them have failed.
I wonder how many pleasant surprises did you fellas have lately with MMORPG? Or ever?
It is always, pardon me often starts with enormous hype, and eventually ends with much fewer hard-core fans still trying to prove themselves that game was worth their expectations.
I am no talking about good to some degree games, but about games, which were not expected to be something special, and suddenly shook the ground by their extraordinarity.
And Zenimax. Do you know something special about them, that I don’t know?
This game already made enough players unhappy (which is somewhat untypical for well-anticipated titles lately). And it is after all attempts to keep hype high.
It should be a reason, why original crew always refused to consider a question about making ES to MMO.
You also should agree, that RP part and MMO part will never mingle organically in any game.
They can fit each other, complement each other, but can never grow one from other. RP means you are the one, you are the focus of the game. Whoever is with you, they are your sidekicks. It is not what MMO concept grows from.
Recent MMOs have enough of their own problems. It is quite shortsighted approach, to try to fix them by wearing popular single player title hat. It is just hat, don’t you see? Nothing else!
ZENIMAX DEVs did not bring any new or fresh solutions to MMO part of this game. Same old, same old. Even if MMO part off this game will be well polished and work like a Swiss clock, it still will be just a good game (at its best), nothing groundbreaking.
No RPG content will make it function better as MMO. As MMO this game (as it envisioned by its DEVs) is doomed.
Some MMO fans might think that it is about balance between MMO and ES design that makes this game a bad MMO game. I tell you, even if this game would be pure MMO game, it still will suck.
Look how many MMO games around. None of them are really good MMO games, or you wouldn’t wait for this one with such a anticipation.
The only visible way, that could make this game desirable (I do not know for how long), is to make it mostly ES game. Of course, it will lose some pure MMO fans, but it might still be a good game for ES fans. But I don’t know, is it possible now at all.
I can will say this. What is Elder Scrolls in spirit is alive and well in this MMO. The people who have been playing since Morrowind will immediately recognize things that make The Elder Scrolls game what we know and love. Now...are there some hitches with taking this 'Best of Class' RPG series and shaping it into an MMO? Of course there is. There always are going to be compromises in this situation. What gets me though is that people are already slamming the game and it is still in closed beta. Whole systems are being reworked as we speak. So to sit here and pass judgement just makes no sense to me. As I said the spirit of all The Elder Scrolls games we have come to know and love is there for all to see.
The developers are really busting their humps trying to make the game as good as it can be while staying true to that spirit. That may be the problem. You can't make everyone happy. Nowadays almost EVERY MMO is a theme park on rails, watered down and 'dumbed down' to try and appeal to the average IQ (around 100) and average age of players (around 14). Unfortunately for some of us those averages are far below what and who we are. Concerns that this will be a '3 monther' are legitimate, though I know I am in it for the long haul.
This game will not be the perfect MMO. There was a little game called ShadowBane made way back just after the turn of the millennia that had it all. Sandbox, crazy race choices and classes and the combinations were astounding. Player built cities, economy was totally player driven. No rails to be found. Not a theme in sight, other then kill everything that moves that isn't your friend (it had insane open world PvP where you could loot players..was awesome).
Anyway...the formula for a truly epic MMO is out there. The millions and millions these companies want to make, however, doesn't allow for those games to be made anymore. i have heard whispers of a few coming up. We'll see. In the meantime...TESO is the best option imho.
Comments
What this looks like to me, is a huge, single player game in shared space.
Aside from a few boss creatures, and some PvP options, what is the need for any other players?
I predict this will be another of the many games that might sell some boxes out of the gate, but ultimately have little staying power.
And I see nothing to change the opinion I've had following this game for a long while: it looks to be an average MMO (like so many others) with a famous IP name on the box for the express purpose of selling a lot of copies.
Well that sounds good:-)
I beleve it when I see it.
The word "sandbox" has become a cliche used by ad departments in their hype machine to describe everything under the sun. It's as meaningful now describing MMOs as the words "good" and "nice."
Even calling the SP ES games sandboxes is a stretch: there are no permanent changes to the world except some NPC dialogue.
You attack Windhelm with the Stormcloaks, go out and back in and the town is restored magically to it's pre-destruction self. The only thing that changes is that now you have Stormcloak guards and a new Thane.
Attack Solitude with the Stormcloaks and you will see a steady supply of defenders spawn out of thin air--not even close to doors to make it seem like they're coming out of a building.
There are quests and quest givers who send you to specific locations to kill a specific NPC and grab some item they drop or have near them.
There are levels and level progression.
There is no house building except with the paid extra content that came a couple of years after release.
When you buy decorations for your house, they happen instantly.
In short, ES games are just BIG, BIG worlds cleverly designed with hidden out of the way quests to give you the sandbox illusion without really being one.
I get tired of people calling them sandboxes. They are very good games, but Minecraft or Dwarf Fortress they ain't.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The only way to totally avoid quests in Skyrim is to talk to no one and go nowhere and even then, some courrier NPC somewhere will stop you and give you one whether you want it or not or an assasin will try to kill you and drop a note...
I'm not talking about following or not following the rebellion or Dragonborn or guild quest lines. The whole world and its many ruins and dungeons are quest driven - they can not be avoided.
Yes, they do a much better job of making some quests seem like organic consequences of exploration without hammering you over the head with hints about who you should talk to... but those main quests also do exist. They do avoid the "kill me 10 falmers" cliches but the 100 falmers will still be there between you and your goal at the end of the cave/ruin.
From what I know of ESO, they are doing the exact same thing: there are main quests lines and the necessary directions of where to go to next and who to talk to... and there are the quests in the wild you'll only see if you explore.
And even more so than in any SP ES game, yes, you can level all the way to 50 without doing any of them... there's this place called Cyrodiil, you know
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Two good points. Are we expecting too much?
So last night I was watching this show, it was a dream come true as such a big fan of the series.
The show was about a guy that moved into an apartment and used a ring as a deposit. His landlord, Sauron was a real jerk. The two guys living nextdoor to him, Legolas and Gimli were a great comedic duo that lightened the storyline with their one liners. The main character, Frodo and his crazy old uncle Gandalf (who has a major crush on the landlords wife Galadriel) has a great friend that constantly drops buy, usually tripping, named Sam. The entire show has good ol Frodo chasing....
Ahh yes, a dream show created for all fans of Lords of the Rings, never thought I would see it happen...LoTRs every week on my TV.
That pretty much sums up this whole TESO fiasco. TES in name, not in content or design. Remove the names of people and places and no one would call it a TES rip off or clone, they would however state that its a little too much like DaoC.
I can safely say that this game will not have or be considered by fans as an elder scrolls game. This is just mass produced game that will have no intimate personal story. You will be lost in the 3rd person melee of wakamole hot bars and heal bars.
When you start skyrim you are tied up in a cart after being unconscious. All you can do is move your head and look around and listen to what the others are saying around you to get your bearings. Later you witness a dragon up close while still tied up. You cant expereience that 10 feet behind your body looking down at the action. You have to be able to look into the other persons eyes and see their pain and fear. 1 person all the way. No 3rd person. Also, dungeons are huge wide open casyms that whole armies could walk through. In skyrim they are dank, cramped, cant see anything without light, and easy to get lost in. Its such a simple thing that is completely lost on ESO. Also, the personal story of your character is just not there. Its what is your faction doing. What big battle is going on that you are supposed to be in with the rest of the world.
If there is going to be some big battle than you really need to feel like you are 1 of 1000s and you are on the front line with your buddies dieing all around you. 1st person. Now that would be an experience worthy of elder scrolls, but this wow-ifications of elderscrolls. No thank you. Will not buy when it comes out.
Umm, they have first person in ESO. They have random caves that are solo only dungeons that should give you the same feeling. They have 200 vs 200 players on screen working (internally, don't know about reality) in Cyrodiil. They have a story for your character that you can follow for your faction. But, umm, ok, don't play.
You can't pause in a MMO, so you need a way to have skills with an ability bar. But you will only have 6 at a time with a weapon swap that can give you 6 more. You can not spam abilities because you will not have enough stamina or magicka to do so. You will have to use your left mouse button to swing your weapon or shoot your arrow or use your staff and the right mouse to block.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
So when this comes out and people wish it was the next Elder Scrolls installment basically Skyrim with multiplayer because that would be a better game I'm sure there will be people defending the MMO design. The same way people defended Neverwinter and SWTOR when both of those could have continued a franchise and been NWN 3 or KOTOR 3 instead of MMOs.
I would be cool if the MMOs had no effect or influence on the franchises but they do and IMHO it's not good. If we got NWN 3 or KOTOR 3 or the next installment of the Elder Scrolls series I wouldn't be complaining but those games are not being made and MMOs are to the complete detriment of those franchises imo.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/@artemisentr4: wonder why you fullquote a text an than miss to reference one single statement of this text...
@ OP: I'm still trying to figure out, why I seem to like Oblivion better than skyrim. Anyway, all Elderscroll titles are round based so far and all the fighting is balanced towards this certain "stop and go" technic. Realtime fighting woud need to be made much easier, otherwise you would be more dead than alive in higher levels.
@ Sovrath: your friend that "...played through morrowind and Oblivion and only did the few quests he found "out in the wild" so to speak." probably missed out one of the finest scripting I've ever seen in a CRPG (I refer to Oblivion). Of course the fact alone that you are free to skip all these wonderful missions speaks in favour of this game. In Oblivion you will also see a lot of surprising scipted details that are not part of a mission that you only would meet by exploring. I doubt that I ever will see such things in an MMO and I doubt ES:O will be an exception here.
First, you start TES:O in a dungeon, as a prisoner. Molag Bal (I think he is the bad guy here) has imprisoned your soul in Coldharbour. Your first "quest" is to escape.
Second, can you name a dungeon you got lost in while playing Skyrim? I have yet to find one with the exception of Blackreach which is just a HUGE open cavern. All others I have been in have ONE path to follow, with maybe a spur here and there. Basically, if the door is locked, it goes nowhere. There are even quick exits out of the dungeons almost every time. Also, unless you mod Skyrim (for the PC), dungeons are bright cheery places, with the one exception of going through the Pilgrim's Path. There is no need what-so-ever for a torch or a Khajiit's Night-Eye ability.
Third, TES:O does have 1st person view for the players. Like Skyrim and older ES single games, it also has 3rd person views for the players that prefer that.
Fourth, and this is my opinion, personal stories have no place in an MMO with thousands (or more) players sharing the same story. How many Last Dragonborns do you want running around? The big battle is the fight for Cyrodiil, whether you care to or not. The "big story" though, is Molag Bal trying to take over Tamriel and your journey to stop him, with all the other players doing the same.
That being said, there are many, many other reasons why TES:O falls short for me for the Elder Scroll experience. I just do not like misinformation being bandied about. I will support legitimate gripes, though
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well of course there should be 100 falmers between me and my goal.
I think part of the issue, which you point out in your post, is that players seem to want a completely catered game that takes away everything they hate and adds everything they want.
So let's say that Elder Scrolls games are about creating the "representation" of a world. I say "representation" because towns and cities have only a few houses. I think the idea is to give the illusion of towns and cities but "somewhere out there" there are more people. So things are going to be happening and you can be part of it or not.
If you go into a falmer cave there will be falmer. You can either sneak past them or kill them. You don't have to engage most of them if you want to be a thief/Assassin character who doesn't engage. Some you might but that's life. These are not "Thief" games.
As far as avoiding quests, there is a difference between doing the quests offered and "not seeing quests ever".
So a courier offers you a quest? Don't do do it. Thats' the "world" idea, there are things happening and you might be contacted to do certain things and you can choose to be a part of it or not. So what if you encounter quests, no one is making you do it.
So "yes" my friend only did the few quests he found interesting but mostly explored. He espcially did this in Oblivion and Morrowind.
But you don't have to do any quests. The only caveat there is skyrim where, if you want to see dragons, you have to do the quest that includes guard towers.
I currently have a character who will only do the assassin's guild quest and the Vampire side of Dawnguard.
have another character who will only do the thieves guild quest.
Other than that? They explore and wander the land and get into conflicts. If someone offers them a quest and the quest does not pertain to their character then they sure as hell won't do them.
I think this is the reason why people call Elder Scrolls games "sandboxes" It's not because you can build (without mods or that expansion) but it's because you can create a character and adopt your own motivations.
Just because some players can't imagine any other way than to do the quests or take issue with the idea that they come across quests doesn't mean "other" players find their own good time.
I mean, I had a few play sessions that not only were about crafting but were about finding certain crafting items such as "linen". Basically delving into ruins to find linen. This was to satisfy a weapon mod's requirements.
I have another character who is all about "slaying dragons". If they see a dragon in the distance they drop everything and chase that dragon until the catch up and kill it. This can be a bit difficult because at a certain distance the game assumes you no longer are paying attention and removes it. So you have to be fast.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
http://youtube.com/iamstilbon/
@ Sovrath
I'm sure you can ignore the core game design and do your own thing in many SP games and MMO. Still, both the SP ES games and ESO are quest driven. Ignoring them is a choice but not the game design.
Skyrim levels the world around you to match your level (to some extent - there is still some level-gated content and some quest lines are not available at all until you reach a certain level) and this gives you the freedom to go off in any direction you choose. There are only two ways any MMO can duplicate that: 1) no levels at all or 2) heavy private phase instancing - neither of which are particularly attractive solutions. The 1st creates a grindy almost pointless game where you have no progression and the 2nd an isolating experience that hardly seems worth the bandwidth to play it online.
The reason MMOs gate content with level-appropriate zones is not due to laziness or lack of imagination - it's just the most reasonable way to provide many players at once with the ability to develop and improve a character and then tackle greater challenges without having to over-instance and phase the game.
The trade-off, obviously, is that you can't have the same freedom of movement an SP game can give you. I don't see any way around that. Do you?
EDIT: and before someone else mentions "mixed level zones" as a 3rd option, let me just say that, IMHO, all that results in is a creation of many sub-zones within a zone - the point is that there will still be places where you need to be a certain level to play in - it's just a variant on leveled zones.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
What you fellas said...
Just My 2 Lunars
Sure I would try but only if they provide a trial account (which they don't seem to plan). Sceptical as I am I surely won't buy a pig in a poke.
Let's party like it is 1863!
I haven't played the beta or followed ESO closely, so it may be that I am completely off in my statements below......
It is my feeling that some games, series and concepts just aren't very well SUITED to make into an MMO. The Elder Scrolls Series is one of those. In order to make it into an MMO, you are going to have to lose a very large part of what made TES so appealing to many players and gave it the Elder Scrolls feel. This probably would have been true even had they gone the "sandbox" route....but assuradly so in going the Themepark route. This may (or may not) mean that ESO will be a fun game or a fun MMO.....but I highly doubt that it will feel very much like a fun Elder Scrolls game rather then a game simply set within the Elder Scrolls universe.
What would have been far better, IMO, is what many fans have been asking for. Simply to host co-op versions of a TES game on a persistant "server" and let relatively small groups of friends connect to and play on those servers...similar to what was done in the old Neverwinter Nights series.
Unfortunately many publishers think they need to turn everything into an MMO....some things just don't fit well as one. YMMV.
Ultima Online didn't focus on group play at any point in time and it's still alive, over fifteen years later. Maybe it's the exception, but games have been focusing on grouping almost exclusively since WoW and the vast majority of them have failed.
So you comment really doesn't make sense to me.
Not even slighest interested in ESO, ive seen and heared so much about ESO now that im convinced i won;t like it.
Im always was and still am a huge fan of solo Elder Scroll games and i realy don't think ESO is even close to what solo games represent.
Daggerfall was btw not bad but Morrowind was ALOT better in my humble opinion, after as 8 year old every looks GRANDEUR:P
I'll stick with skyrim and other solo games and let new generation enjoy console mmo's.
Enjoy Folk's! Im back to my PC games:)
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I wonder how many pleasant surprises did you fellas have lately with MMORPG? Or ever?
It is always, pardon me often starts with enormous hype, and eventually ends with much fewer hard-core fans still trying to prove themselves that game was worth their expectations.
I am no talking about good to some degree games, but about games, which were not expected to be something special, and suddenly shook the ground by their extraordinarity.
And Zenimax. Do you know something special about them, that I don’t know?
This game already made enough players unhappy (which is somewhat untypical for well-anticipated titles lately). And it is after all attempts to keep hype high.
It should be a reason, why original crew always refused to consider a question about making ES to MMO.
You also should agree, that RP part and MMO part will never mingle organically in any game.
They can fit each other, complement each other, but can never grow one from other. RP means you are the one, you are the focus of the game. Whoever is with you, they are your sidekicks. It is not what MMO concept grows from.
Recent MMOs have enough of their own problems. It is quite shortsighted approach, to try to fix them by wearing popular single player title hat. It is just hat, don’t you see? Nothing else!
ZENIMAX DEVs did not bring any new or fresh solutions to MMO part of this game. Same old, same old. Even if MMO part off this game will be well polished and work like a Swiss clock, it still will be just a good game (at its best), nothing groundbreaking.
No RPG content will make it function better as MMO. As MMO this game (as it envisioned by its DEVs) is doomed.
Some MMO fans might think that it is about balance between MMO and ES design that makes this game a bad MMO game. I tell you, even if this game would be pure MMO game, it still will suck.
Look how many MMO games around. None of them are really good MMO games, or you wouldn’t wait for this one with such a anticipation.
The only visible way, that could make this game desirable (I do not know for how long), is to make it mostly ES game. Of course, it will lose some pure MMO fans, but it might still be a good game for ES fans. But I don’t know, is it possible now at all.
I can will say this. What is Elder Scrolls in spirit is alive and well in this MMO. The people who have been playing since Morrowind will immediately recognize things that make The Elder Scrolls game what we know and love. Now...are there some hitches with taking this 'Best of Class' RPG series and shaping it into an MMO? Of course there is. There always are going to be compromises in this situation. What gets me though is that people are already slamming the game and it is still in closed beta. Whole systems are being reworked as we speak. So to sit here and pass judgement just makes no sense to me. As I said the spirit of all The Elder Scrolls games we have come to know and love is there for all to see.
The developers are really busting their humps trying to make the game as good as it can be while staying true to that spirit. That may be the problem. You can't make everyone happy. Nowadays almost EVERY MMO is a theme park on rails, watered down and 'dumbed down' to try and appeal to the average IQ (around 100) and average age of players (around 14). Unfortunately for some of us those averages are far below what and who we are. Concerns that this will be a '3 monther' are legitimate, though I know I am in it for the long haul.
This game will not be the perfect MMO. There was a little game called ShadowBane made way back just after the turn of the millennia that had it all. Sandbox, crazy race choices and classes and the combinations were astounding. Player built cities, economy was totally player driven. No rails to be found. Not a theme in sight, other then kill everything that moves that isn't your friend (it had insane open world PvP where you could loot players..was awesome).
Anyway...the formula for a truly epic MMO is out there. The millions and millions these companies want to make, however, doesn't allow for those games to be made anymore. i have heard whispers of a few coming up. We'll see. In the meantime...TESO is the best option imho.