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Action/Twitch, 8-button Combat

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  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Member UncommonPosts: 907
    Originally posted by ignore_me
    The lure of MOBA $$, the lack of trinity, the need for simple controls because movement along 3 axes will be necessary. What's your take on this feature of EQNext?

    Ewww. my opinion of course.

    I like playing MMOs, old school MMOs, with MMO control schemes and style, not Console Game action/twitch style.

    If I wanted to play a Console Game years ago or now I would play them. I don't. I don't find them enjoyable. That's part of the reason why I play MMOs.

    So why in the world would someone want to create a MMO designed like a Console Game? Dense in the head if you ask me. KEEP THE GENRES SEPARATE ALREADY!

    Sometimes I think the Devs ate their brains instead of their HotPockets.

    I WANT to look forward to EQN, to get excited and to buy it and play it, but the more I read about it, the more I see, the more I want to stay as far away from this game as I can. it's frustrating.

    (*IF* EQN is designed in this fashion it does not sound enjoyable to me. I say "*IF*" because until it launches and we can all play it ourselves I am hesitant to believe anything I see here about EQN. Half is hype generated by Sony, other half is silly wild ^&* guesses.)

  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556

    I'm 50/50 on this mostly because I feel combat should not be the sole/only focus of any mmo(please see SWG). It's 2013 and 10 years since WoW started the trend that made every developer focus their games around killing and nothing else. I'm sick and @#!^ tired of being forced to fight to advance/progress my characters or given an option to participate in a half @%$! crafting system that was just added to say "our game has crafting" when it's obvious that the effort to create it just wasn't there.

    If SOE can create a game where the experience is evenly divided between many things then I might be on board with this.

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247

    More action based combat is obviously the future of the genre, whether you like it or not. The overwhelming number of titles have gone this path lately. 8 button combat is where things might go wrong. EQ only had 8 spell slots and it worked fine. GW2 only has 10 skill slots but you can swap around and that works fine too. 8 slots can work if they do it right but it also can totally fail.

  • CasualMakerCasualMaker Member UncommonPosts: 862
    Originally posted by SlyLoK
    8 would be ok if half of them werent tied to your weapon. That is the main thing I dont like.. Dont like it in GW2 and I dont like it in EQN. Only having 4 abilities of your choice to use isnt enough IMO.

    +1

    I think it is there as a bit of hand-holding, ensuring players don't scr3w themselves by getting into fights with no combat abilities ready. So what if they do? Maybe they will pay better attention next time.

  • SupaAPESupaAPE Member Posts: 100
    I agree with others, the Combat in this game will make or break it for most. I think from everything i've seen so far, there's a reason why they haven't showed us much or any player combat or PvP, either it sucks or it's on another level (guesssing the later). The parkour stuff to me is intriguing because it shows a fast, stable smooth game client which is the foundation to any proper PvP game. I''ve become hyped because of the client and how good it seems. So much potential hereimage
  • allegriaallegria Member CommonPosts: 682
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    GW1 has an eight skills bar and TSW has ten. Both games are deep and smart. Quality > quantity.

    Guild wars deep ? ROFL

  • KanethKaneth Member RarePosts: 2,286

    The two main games I currently play are GW2 and WoW, which are extremely different when it comes to hotbars. WoW has suffered from 10 years of skill bloat, so now my ability bars take up a not insignificant amount of space on my screen.

    In WoW I use; 1-= on my keyboard, all 17 buttons on my razer naga (mapped), E F G V for skills along with an alt+ modifier for many other skills. I still have to macro a few buttons together so I don't lose hotbar space as well. No, I'm not using the majority of those buttons for the majority of my fights, but I still have to have access for the times I need the various underused skills.

    In GW2, well I use 1-10 on my razer naga, plus whatever alt+ modifiers I use for the F1 line of skills depending on profession.

    Personally, I prefer the GW2 scheme. It's clean, it's practical, and most of all, there's sacrifice needed to be made so you can't deal with all situations easily all of the time. I find the combat approach in GW2 to be far superior as well. WoW is nice since you can't get out of most situations, but at the same time, being able to deal with any and all situations in WoW can make the combat a bit stale as well.

    TL;DR version of combat between the two games is;

    GW2 = Scalpel

    WoW = Swiss Army Knife.

    I actually like that SOE is going with the minimalist approach in EQN, but I also like that not all classes get the same amount of skills available to them via slot. DPS classes get more damage slots, where support classes get more support slots, etc. It adds another layer of depth. Along with how gear will affect certain skills and the Tier system, EQN could have a very "chess" like combat system. Simple at the surface, but with complexity hidden underneath. SOE seems to be attempting to take the GW2 combat system, and place more depth into it along with even more potential for having to made hard decisions on which abilities to keep and which to sacrifice.

    My only hope is that they can keep things pretty well balanced to allow for a very large variety of builds.

  • skeaserskeaser Member RarePosts: 4,205
    The number of buttons used isn't what matters to me nor does tab or aimed targeting. What I care about is, is it fun? Skyrim on PS3 didn't give me a lot of skills readily available at the push of a single button and it was still fun.
    Sig so that badges don't eat my posts.


  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    I like the action/twitch aspect, and I'm leaning towards liking the 8-button thing.  Honestly, I just want the combat to be good, but experience has taught me that lots of buttons does NOT mean good combat.

     

    I have played games that had several hotbars of abilities, but combat devolved into simple macro-able rotations for nearly everything (Rift).  And I have played games with only 4 abilities where combat was extremely deep and involving (DOTA).

    I have heard a lot of folks say that lots of hot-bars give you "tactical" options in combat...but honestly, I've never really experienced this.  In every multi-hotbar game I've played, it seems like combat usually devolves to a simple rotation of a few abilities, and the rest are either fluff, buffs, or extremely niche abilities that you only use in certain situations.  I really wouldn't call that tactical.

    Now I DO want a game that gives me a lot of POTENTIAL options, but I don't need them all at once.  And the fact that EQN has so many classes makes me think I will have lots of options.

     

     

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by allegria
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    GW1 has an eight skills bar and TSW has ten. Both games are deep and smart. Quality > quantity.

    Guild wars deep ? ROFL

    GW1 has a deep skill system w having to choose 8 skills out of hundreds

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill

    http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Category:Lists_of_skills

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247

    Yeah the 8 skills works fine if you can swap around the weapon skills. They stated that you could combine multiple skills into each other. I think the example was combining shadow step with backstab to form a single skill. 8 skill slots works fine if you can heavily customize them. Another good example is Ryzom where you could build your skills from the ground up and have them be very multi functional. You didn't use 10 hot bars worth of skills but they were customizable enough to lead to deep combat.

    However if there is little to no customization then 8 skills will fail. It is just one of those things that we need more info to judge.

  • Neo_ViperNeo_Viper Member UncommonPosts: 609
    I will judge this once I've tried the game, and not based on some fanboi or hater assumptions ;)

    My computer is better than yours.

  • NavinJohnsonNavinJohnson Member Posts: 60
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I like the action/twitch aspect, and I'm leaning towards liking the 8-button thing.  Honestly, I just want the combat to be good, but experience has taught me that lots of buttons does NOT mean good combat.

     

    I have played games that had several hotbars of abilities, but combat devolved into simple macro-able rotations for nearly everything (Rift).  And I have played games with only 4 abilities where combat was extremely deep and involving (DOTA).

    I have heard a lot of folks say that lots of hot-bars give you "tactical" options in combat...but honestly, I've never really experienced this.  In every multi-hotbar game I've played, it seems like combat usually devolves to a simple rotation of a few abilities, and the rest are either fluff, buffs, or extremely niche abilities that you only use in certain situations.  I really wouldn't call that tactical.

    Now I DO want a game that gives me a lot of POTENTIAL options, but I don't need them all at once.  And the fact that EQN has so many classes makes me think I will have lots of options.

     

     

    Agree!

     

    I would prefer to see equipped gear fill tactical niche roles and ditch the need to have 5 hot bars up all the time, the majority of which  consists of stuff that is rarely used.

     

    Also, it's my understanding that a big reason that four of the abilities will be pegged to gear is to index and control for multi-classing. Sure, you might have unlocked the scroll to be a mage, but if you don't have the gear for it, you may not find the abilities useful or even effectively useable. 

     

    I think I will like this system, because rather than having 35 abilities up all the time, I'll utilize class and weapons tactics for each fight. To me, this just seems like it will be more interesting.

  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506

    The reduction of skills on a hot bar has everything to do with balance and leveling playing field. 

    The more skills available the more variables that need to be accounted for. 

    Fact of the matter is that games like WoW and Rift with a gluttony of abilities with unlimited action slots get min/maxed and reduced down to 'most proficient'.

    What happens at that point is macro's become prominent. So developers have a choice to either include macro'ing into the interface or leave a decided advantage to those with the know how to use 3rd party macro programs. 

    So either way all those abilities are going to be reduced down to a handful of macro commands. 

    Action combat actually creates less of divide between the haves and the have nots.

    No game I have ever played required more skill management than a Totem Twisting Shaman in early arena. I can promise you that the know how to utilize macros were the difference between a lot of performance. 

  • SephastusSephastus Member UncommonPosts: 455

    Go play Japans most popular game: Monster Hunter.

     

    4 buttons, of these for attacking, and all 4 tied to your weapon. Fun... AS... Heck!

     

    Number of skills is independent of the fun or longevity of the game, which is what I am interested in.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
         I personally hate the action twitch combat..  For me a true MMO should be about character development and world interaction.. I enjoyed working with factions and crafting.. I especially enjoyed and miss playing a druid in wolf form, running about tracking and killing my target.. Kiting is a missing role, as so is true CC and pulling..  Today's MMO are nothing more then console driven "Mortal Kombat" online.. There is virtually no character depth in today's MMO genre..
  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         I personally hate the action twitch combat..  For me a true MMO should be about character development and world interaction.. I enjoyed working with factions and crafting.. I especially enjoyed and miss playing a druid in wolf form, running about tracking and killing my target.. Kiting is a missing role, as so is true CC and pulling..  Today's MMO are nothing more then console driven "Mortal Kombat" online.. There is virtually no character depth in today's MMO genre..

    But what does action-twitch combat have to do with character development and world interaction?  I could name plenty of games WITHOUT action-twitch combat that had very little world interaction, EQ1 being a prime example.  I loved EQ1...but compared to its contemporary game UO, its world interaction was miniscule.

    Anyway, I agree with you that character customization/development and world interaction are VERY important to an MMORPG, but I don't think that action-twitch combat need detract from that at all.  I mean, look at a game like Skyrim...its combat is fairly "actioney" and yet it has plenty of character development and world interaction.

    In fact, I feel like action-twitch combat makes me feel more connected to the world, since combat feels more visceral and less like I'm just ordering my character around.  This is actually why I could never get into Eve...the combat there felt so disconnected to me that I just couldn't get into it.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,740
    Originally posted by Sephastus

    Go play Japans most popular game: Monster Hunter.

     

    4 buttons, of these for attacking, and all 4 tied to your weapon. Fun... AS... Heck!

     

    Number of skills is independent of the fun or longevity of the game, which is what I am interested in.

     I would be more excited if it were just 8 skills that you made your skill deck from, verse 4 from a weapon, but I can see how the 4/4 approach is probably a 1000 times easier to balance also...I will wait and see, before I kill it.  MY biggest thing is that the weapon skills better have spells and such for casters, because if it is all close combat stuff, count me out probably, because that would mean from the demonstration the most attack spells I could have is 2, due to the way they said the 4 abilities would work, and the most offensive class would have 2 of the 4 abilities of the class be offensive (others would be movement stuff and misc things).  I could not see playing a caster with 2 spells to damage things.

     

  • RaeldorDrakenRaeldorDraken Member Posts: 1
    Originally posted by Xthos
    Originally posted by Sephastus

    Go play Japans most popular game: Monster Hunter.

     

    4 buttons, of these for attacking, and all 4 tied to your weapon. Fun... AS... Heck!

     

    Number of skills is independent of the fun or longevity of the game, which is what I am interested in.

     I would be more excited if it were just 8 skills that you made your skill deck from, verse 4 from a weapon, but I can see how the 4/4 approach is probably a 1000 times easier to balance also...I will wait and see, before I kill it.  MY biggest thing is that the weapon skills better have spells and such for casters, because if it is all close combat stuff, count me out probably, because that would mean from the demonstration the most attack spells I could have is 2, due to the way they said the 4 abilities would work, and the most offensive class would have 2 of the 4 abilities of the class be offensive (others would be movement stuff and misc things).  I could not see playing a caster with 2 spells to damage things.

     

    It's only a guess but i think that will be as you think, spells bound on weapons. In the soe live videos there is someone making walls of fire. and they didnt mentioned that on the "mage" abilities. I see the class specific abilities more powerful and meaningful, like the kind a gravitation sphere atracting mobs and damaging them etc, i see the weapons like the warrior ones with the hammer, look a too spcific for the hammer. Mage weapon example: staff, is bounded with elemental atacks, fire = wall of fire, Ice = close range slowing , etc...

  • FangrimFangrim Member UncommonPosts: 616
    Originally posted by Talemire
    There has been not a single 8-ability game that I have enjoyed, and the games with a myriad of abilities, which allow for highly-situational tactical options, have always been my most played games. Don't do this crap, SOE...

    Totally agree,but they will do this crap because they want $$$ from the casual sheep that can't handle more than 1 hotbar and hide it by saying there is more skill by picking which spells to use 1 hour before you fight than having all your skills and have to take notice when to use them.


    image

  • EnrifEnrif Member UncommonPosts: 152
    Originally posted by Fangrim
    Originally posted by Talemire
    There has been not a single 8-ability game that I have enjoyed, and the games with a myriad of abilities, which allow for highly-situational tactical options, have always been my most played games. Don't do this crap, SOE...

    Totally agree,but they will do this crap because they want $$$ from the casual sheep that can't handle more than 1 hotbar and hide it by saying there is more skill by picking which spells to use 1 hour before you fight than having all your skills and have to take notice when to use them.

    that's nonsense.

    Having more then 1 bar is way to make tactics and builds less important, cause in one of the many bars you have a skill for any situation. Being a kind of Jack of all trades. That's for the lazy casuals who want everything on the silver tablet

     

    Limiting the bars means specialisation and customisation are important. Not running with one build every content. Its anti-casual as you have to go through you 400+ skills to find the one you could need in the next fight.

     

    Having access to all of your forty abilities, makes battle not very tactic as you don't have to choose something, because its all the time on your screen. you just have to click it quick enough. talking about twitch combat eh?

    But choosing 8 out of 400 means you have to plan and think what you will need. making a tactic. Accustom to situation you failed. actually carry for the skills on your bar, and not relying that you have always access to them. 

     

     

  • FangrimFangrim Member UncommonPosts: 616
    Originally posted by Enrif
    Originally posted by Fangrim
    Originally posted by Talemire
    There has been not a single 8-ability game that I have enjoyed, and the games with a myriad of abilities, which allow for highly-situational tactical options, have always been my most played games. Don't do this crap, SOE...

    Totally agree,but they will do this crap because they want $$$ from the casual sheep that can't handle more than 1 hotbar and hide it by saying there is more skill by picking which spells to use 1 hour before you fight than having all your skills and have to take notice when to use them.

    that's nonsense.

    Having more then 1 bar is way to make tactics and builds less important, cause in one of the many bars you have a skill for any situation. Being a kind of Jack of all trades. That's for the lazy casuals who want everything on the silver tablet

     

    Limiting the bars means specialisation and customisation are important. Not running with one build every content. Its anti-casual as you have to go through you 400+ skills to find the one you could need in the next fight.

     

    Having access to all of your forty abilities, makes battle not very tactic as you don't have to choose something, because its all the time on your screen. you just have to click it quick enough. talking about twitch combat eh?

    But choosing 8 out of 400 means you have to plan and think what you will need. making a tactic. Accustom to situation you failed. actually carry for the skills on your bar, and not relying that you have always access to them. 

     

     

    What? casual? haha.no way there is a trinity in my kind of games.You have set roles.You can't tank current content on anything other than a tank,heal on healers,dps on mages,scouts.Then you have bards and chanters for buffs mezzes,regen,reses. What your saying is just wrong.

    And what you are saying also proves another point against the people that say trinity doesn't work,you are saying ok we wiped lets put this skill on our bars so we can win! yeah right dps dodge classes.I hate your casual crap games where you play alongside each other and no one can steal your mobs or nodes and you get adventure xp by making cloths and pies.

    Lets all be friends and play alongside each other zerging and never speaking.


    image

  • EnrifEnrif Member UncommonPosts: 152
    Originally posted by Fangrim
    Originally posted by Enrif
    Originally posted by Fangrim
    Originally posted by Talemire
    There has been not a single 8-ability game that I have enjoyed, and the games with a myriad of abilities, which allow for highly-situational tactical options, have always been my most played games. Don't do this crap, SOE...

    Totally agree,but they will do this crap because they want $$$ from the casual sheep that can't handle more than 1 hotbar and hide it by saying there is more skill by picking which spells to use 1 hour before you fight than having all your skills and have to take notice when to use them.

    that's nonsense.

    Having more then 1 bar is way to make tactics and builds less important, cause in one of the many bars you have a skill for any situation. Being a kind of Jack of all trades. That's for the lazy casuals who want everything on the silver tablet

     

    Limiting the bars means specialisation and customisation are important. Not running with one build every content. Its anti-casual as you have to go through you 400+ skills to find the one you could need in the next fight.

     

    Having access to all of your forty abilities, makes battle not very tactic as you don't have to choose something, because its all the time on your screen. you just have to click it quick enough. talking about twitch combat eh?

    But choosing 8 out of 400 means you have to plan and think what you will need. making a tactic. Accustom to situation you failed. actually carry for the skills on your bar, and not relying that you have always access to them. 

     

     

    What? casual? haha.no way there is a trinity in my kind of games.You have set roles.You can't tank current content on anything other than a tank,heal on healers,dps on mages,scouts.Then you have bards and chanters for buffs mezzes,regen,reses. What your saying is just wrong.

    And what you are saying also proves another point against the people that say trinity doesn't work,you are saying ok we wiped lets put this skill on our bars so we can win! yeah right dps dodge classes.I hate your casual crap games where you play alongside each other and no one can steal your mobs or nodes and you get adventure xp by making cloths and pies.

    Lets all be friends and play alongside each other zerging and never speaking.

    apples and oranges. 

    Limited Bars has nothing to do with Trinity or not.

    You can have 7 skills and set roles. TSW has it.

    You can have 10 skills without roles. GW2 has it.

    And if you would actualy read what i said, limited action bars requieres more specialisation. cause every single skill matters. 

    And Trinity makes it not less zerg. Cause you know the tank tanks, the healer heals and the dps deals damage. Just run a PuG in any of your trinity games. Everyone will do what they want, and by accidents they use the same direction. Its not different than GW2 dungeons. Besdies your have more skills on your bar, and once your tanks  dies and your group wipes, bitching on the tank why he died, on the healer why he didnt keept him alive. And thats the true nature of current Trinity. Not interdependently from each other. but blaming if some one falls short for your needs. 

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         I personally hate the action twitch combat..  For me a true MMO should be about character development and world interaction.. I enjoyed working with factions and crafting.. I especially enjoyed and miss playing a druid in wolf form, running about tracking and killing my target.. Kiting is a missing role, as so is true CC and pulling..  Today's MMO are nothing more then console driven "Mortal Kombat" online.. There is virtually no character depth in today's MMO genre..

    But what does action-twitch combat have to do with character development and world interaction?  I could name plenty of games WITHOUT action-twitch combat that had very little world interaction, EQ1 being a prime example.  I loved EQ1...but compared to its contemporary game UO, its world interaction was miniscule.

    Anyway, I agree with you that character customization/development and world interaction are VERY important to an MMORPG, but I don't think that action-twitch combat need detract from that at all.  I mean, look at a game like Skyrim...its combat is fairly "actioney" and yet it has plenty of character development and world interaction.

    In fact, I feel like action-twitch combat makes me feel more connected to the world, since combat feels more visceral and less like I'm just ordering my character around.  This is actually why I could never get into Eve...the combat there felt so disconnected to me that I just couldn't get into it.

          I think you miss understood what I was implying.. or vice versa..  I used kiting as an example of my beloved days in EQ1..  There is no twitch action combat if "kiting" is allowed.. I snare, root and proceed to kill mob from a distance.. :)  Works for me..  I don't have to worry about dodging, or parrying.. Action based twitch combat really only applies to those melee classes.. Will EQ Next allow me to kite?  pet or mez fight?  I doubt it, and that is a true shame..  GW2 is a step to action combat and I feel it has let me down in many ways.. I enjoy playing Diablo 3 on both my PC and PS3  (expansion coming :) ) but that isn't the type of combat I want to see in a MMORPG..  In my opinion and preference

  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,402
    Originally posted by Rydeson

          There is no twitch action combat if "kiting" is allowed.. I snare, root and proceed to kill mob from a distance.. :)  Works for me..  I don't have to worry about dodging, or parrying.. Action based twitch combat really only applies to those melee classes.. Will EQ Next allow me to kite?  pet or mez fight?  I doubt it, and that is a true shame..  GW2 is a step to action combat and I feel it has let me down in many ways.. I enjoy playing Diablo 3 on both my PC and PS3  (expansion coming :) ) but that isn't the type of combat I want to see in a MMORPG..  In my opinion and preference

    I classify "kiting" as twitch personally...

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