I think it is a given that the end game talk started with Wow.WHY you ask,i think it obvious,no middle game,just free xp for following hand held linear quests,basically everything a MMORPG should NOT be.
I find it odd that your example of the way an mmorpg should NOT be happens to be the most successful MMO in history.
We rush in because gaming has become a fashion and we must be there at launch with our friends. We rush to end game because they are easyMMOs, made for quick levelling. We do not stop because there is nothing but levelling to play for. We leave when our hive mind is trigged by the hype for a new MMO and swarm to the next launch. Rinse and repeat.
I find it odd that your example of the way an mmorpg should NOT be happens to be the most successful MMO in history.
Just like I can say honestly that I think Justin Bieber makes bad music or Twilight is a bad book series even though both are some of the best selling products of their type in history. Sales do not equal quality.
Like you i also dislike the grindgame that most mmo's have for a endgame, what a pity. It reached a point where the only thing most developers are worried about is "do we have enough grind to keep ppl at endgame?". Players rush to endgame so they can start playing the real game because that's how the majority of mmo's are being done, it's silly.
I may be in the minority but i play an mmo for the journey, i spend my time seeing the things the game has as slowly level up, enjoying it (if it's possible). When i reach endgame i see what's there and then decide if there's anything worthwhile, if not i leave,
I remember playing Anarchy Online and City of heroes/villains for years (and not reaching endgame, always trying new things, experimenting with alts, having fun), but nowdays i may play for a couple months and then leave the game behind. Only exception is swtor but only because of the class stories, now that i finish them i just left.
It is a great pity what mmo's have become, but i still hope some developer out there has the brains and the funds (so it can do something different than a wow clone) to make a great mmo someday.
Human competition is the answer to most of that. For what reason you ask? And why within a bloody game , where everyone suppose to have fun and relax? Who knows? Perhaps it is in our nature . Bottom line is, i truly try hard to find my own pace in an end game 100-sprint madness, and let me tell you it IS hard. Great article man.
I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it --Voltaire
Human competition is the answer to most of that. For what reason you ask? And why within a bloody game , where everyone suppose to have fun and relax?
Where else but in a game? Games, not just video games are competition activities. They are about challenges and overcoming them. That's where fun in games is. As for relaxing, you relax when laying down on the couch. A game does the opposite, it tests your reflexes and problem solving capabilities. Unless you play farmville or something.
Originally posted by Edli Originally posted by manio22Human competition is the answer to most of that. For what reason you ask? And why within a bloody game , where everyone suppose to have fun and relax?
Where else but in a game? Games, not just video games are competition activities. They are about challenges and overcoming them. That's where fun in games is. As for relaxing, you relax when laying down on the couch. A game does the opposite, it tests your reflexes and problem solving capabilities. Unless you play farmville or something.
That's where the fun in these games for you are- MMORPGs because of the multiplayer facet allow people to play not only for competition but also for cooperation. Some players like myself have no concern for challenge or competition whatsoever and only play for the multiplayer/social aspect. The challenges and overcoming them are simply a thing to do while socializing.
Originally posted by manio22Human competition is the answer to most of that. For what reason you ask? And why within a bloody game , where everyone suppose to have fun and relax?
Where else but in a game? Games, not just video games are competition activities. They are about challenges and overcoming them. That's where fun in games is. As for relaxing, you relax when laying down on the couch. A game does the opposite, it tests your reflexes and problem solving capabilities. Unless you play farmville or something.
That's where the fun in these games for you are- MMORPGs because of the multiplayer facet allow people to play not only for competition but also for cooperation. Some players like myself have no concern for challenge or competition whatsoever and only play for the multiplayer/social aspect. The challenges and overcoming them are simply a thing to do while socializing.
Maybe so but he was acting surprised why people look for challenges and competition in a game. That's the whole point for a lot of people to a game, giving them a challenge to overcome. If the mid-game will give them nothing then they will go in the end-game as soon as possible. People will go where the challenge is, can't blame them.
The world is a huge place with lots of people. Trying to design a game around having no people "finish" the game in 2 weeks will only discourage a lots of folks due to the grind. There are people out there that play 16 hours a day plain and simple for ever whatever reason. On top of that you have competitive types that see racing to the end AS THE GAME. Of course once they are done with the game they will hop on these forums proclaim the game sucks and theres no end game.
This is the same mentality as the often heard phrase in single player games "I've beaten the game" what? you took it out back and gave it a right thrashing? Its a phrase that I've detested ever since I first heard it, games are for playing, yep remember that? playing for fun and finishing a game doesn't mean its beaten you just completed it once. Have another go if you enjoyed it, on a higher level, try to challenge yourself with trying to not die, use as little ammo as you can, roll a new class, try a new build, there are many many things you can do to prolong the fun if you actually play, yes just play like you did when you were young.
But this seems to be lost on many gamers old and young its like a notch on the bedpost to say you beaten the game in such and such time, though that is one way to play its not the only way to do it. And when this attitude is taken into the world of MMORPG's its spoils the fun for the rest of us who like to take our time and play. I like GW2 for its big open world, events, exploring, puzzles, vistas, lore, you can mooch around for hours just letting things happen naturally but the race to cap has forced Arenanet to change the core mechanics of the game and they have basically left the open world content to a lonely existence. Luckily I like playing alts and its OK for now, there is enough to see when you are playing 5 toons at once.
But many who play more than me are left out because the competitive gamers have bitched and moaned about no progression and nothing to do at endgame leaving others that would like new classes, zones, events, and other interesting things developed to just twiddle their fingers or just leave the game. Its seems like us gamers who enjoy the PvE journey are a bit of a minority or are we just not as bitching and whinny as the competitive players?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I also recoil anytime someone says endgame. In a virtual world type game there should be no such thing. You build you character over a long period of time with no linear paths or quest hubs and then protect your property/gain more property (be it cities/houses) in the open world.
Modern themepark MMO's are way off the mark and they have created the need for people sound like idiots and talk constantly about "endgame". There is this odd rush to the "end" because other people are already finished in your guild and they are waiting on you in order for you to raid (as there is nothing else to do in these games...unfortunately).
Back in vanilla WoW there were quite a few people who didn't hit max in 6 months. Yeah it did get a bit tedious in the 50-60 range and it probably could of been a bit faster. But it felt like an accomplishment just hitting max level. BC and Wrath had pretty good pacing as shipped, and it seemed like they were getting better at figuring out the right speed of progression. Since then however everything has been sped up so fast the entire thing is a blur. The one thing WoW had over their competitors was this huge volume of meaningful leveling content that provided a wonderful journey and adventure. Now it is so fast that advantage is pretty much moot, people rush to max get burned out and leave. Too much of a grind is bad, but make it to fast and easy and you lose the sense of accomplishment. Not only that you lose the journey and adventure and replace it with one big blur.
People who want to powerlevel will find a way(they did in vanilla), you don't need to dumb down the journey for everybody to accommodate them.
Lol, nice one. For someone who got stuff like "you don't play properly" and "game starts at the cap" numerous times since years, it was an amusing read. But I don't understand why the hate, it's not even worth to waste the slighest amount of energy onto them
Since both sides each love to tell the other how they're "doin it wrong", it's just a gathering of old gossips shaking fingers at each other and scowling in disappointment.
Mrs. Grundy's team just leads the voting locally, because Mrs. Wiggins made her last good showing in 2004.
But players in general won't ever tire of telling the other team "my way is right, ur way is wrong", regardless of topic.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Everyone has gotten used to the journey. Its always the same progression wirth a nearly identical set of mechanics. The only difference is the story the journey is wrapped into. The combat has also become very easy which means there is basically nothing new or challenging during the leveling no matter the MMO. So everyone just rushes through with the hope that the endgame can deliver something worthwhile...Then the disappointment kicks in and the wait for the next MMO begins. Its a neverending cycle which only serves the pockets of the developers. As to why players do this: They are addicted and want to relive the good time they had in the first MMO they played.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The simple answer to the OPs question is endgame is where the non trivial content is and it where one spends 99% of their time playing a MMO.
With almost all MMOs having superfast leveling taking 2 days or less to reach level cap endgame is where almost all our time will be spent.
Those who do not play endgame are simply people who simply do not play MMOs other than on forums.
Well that IS your opinion and your certainly allowed that.
I just hope that I'm not reported when I state in my opinion that's utter Bull, with no fact to support it.
I've played MMO's for years but never played a MMO for more then a few weeks once I got to the endgame. The reason its called endgame is because its the END of the game at least basically till new content is patched in.
Still different strokes for different folks. Have fun on your endgame hamster wheel rushing forward and going nowhere.
The simple answer to the OPs question is endgame is where the non trivial content is and it where one spends 99% of their time playing a MMO.
With almost all MMOs having superfast leveling taking 2 days or less to reach level cap endgame is where almost all our time will be spent.
Those who do not play endgame are simply people who simply do not play MMOs other than on forums.
Well that IS your opinion and your certainly allowed that.
I just hope that I'm not reported when I state in my opinion that's utter Bull, with no fact to support it.
I've played MMO's for years but never played a MMO for more then a few weeks once I got to the endgame. The reason its called endgame is because its the END of the game at least basically till new content is patched in.
Still different strokes for different folks. Have fun on your endgame hamster wheel rushing forward and going nowhere.
Not sure why you are so angry nor what you call the endgame hamster wheel is any different than the leveling wheel. But to refute your points endgame is simply where all the content is in MMOs. Modern MMOs have no leveling content. All new modern MMOs one can get to max in 2 days played or less. The content is at endgame.
If one actually plays a MMO they do it at endgame. If one only pretends to play a MMO they quit before endgame. I don't truly consider anyone actually having played a MMO until they at least have a 100 days played into the game. Almost all of that time will be at endgame. Not to mention in modern MMOs most leveling content can be completed with both eyes closed. It is almost impossible to die why leveling up as content is trivialized and dumbed down and simplified to appease the worst players with the shortest attention spans. This has been the case at endgame as well but at least there is a step up in difficulty, thought and challenge.
The basic problem is that all of the mechanics involved in 'the journey' are essentially unchanged, and approaching two decades.
No one wants to alter it, though. "Give us back the turn of the century again."
1E+08 players, have all done the journey multiple times, with minor variations, for over a dozen years. Developers have proven nothing except that they cannot (won't?) concentrate on making "the journey" content very compelling any more (if they ever did). Was that turn of the century leveling content really compelling, or did the developers (luckily) have access to bunches of players without decades of leveling experience already under their belts?
Alternatives? Replacements? Different ideas? :cricket's chirp:
"Just give us 2000 back!", shouts the reactionary segment.
Someone, please; give them back 2000. So they can realize it just will not be a functional magic bullet for them, or anyone, any more.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Po_gg Lol, nice one. For someone who got stuff like "you don't play properly" and "game starts at the cap" numerous times since years, it was an amusing read. But I don't understand why the hate, it's not even worth to waste the slighest amount of energy onto them
Since both sides each love to tell the other how they're "doin it wrong", it's just a gathering of old gossips shaking fingers at each other and scowling in disappointment.Mrs. Grundy's team just leads the voting locally, because Mrs. Wiggins made her last good showing in 2004.But players in general won't ever tire of telling the other team "my way is right, ur way is wrong", regardless of topic.
Let's not forget those who stand on the sidelines watching, waiting, and then sniping.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Po_gg Lol, nice one. For someone who got stuff like "you don't play properly" and "game starts at the cap" numerous times since years, it was an amusing read. But I don't understand why the hate, it's not even worth to waste the slighest amount of energy onto them
Since both sides each love to tell the other how they're "doin it wrong", it's just a gathering of old gossips shaking fingers at each other and scowling in disappointment.
Mrs. Grundy's team just leads the voting locally, because Mrs. Wiggins made her last good showing in 2004.
But players in general won't ever tire of telling the other team "my way is right, ur way is wrong", regardless of topic.
Let's not forget those who stand on the sidelines watching, waiting, and then sniping.
Like yourself? :bow:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by The1ceQueen I remember in true Mmorpg's like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, there was never mention of endgame. We enjoyed the whole game and all it had to offer, we didn't need a carrot on the stick gear grind to have fun.
That really was it, honestly.
The mentality and expectations of players were so much different in those days. In those days, the fun of playing a given MMO was simply playing the given MMO. There definitely were some who had that "go go go" mentality and made it a point to race through everything just to beat everyone else. It was also a lonelier view from the top, considering most weren't in any hurry to get there.
Things only seem to take "too long" when you expect to achieve them in a certain time frame. A trip is only too slow when you're in a hurry to get to the end. Back then, for the most part, people simply weren't in a hurry. We approached the MMOs as long-term hobbies, things to be enjoyed and experienced with others, not raced through and "beaten" within a month.
That's where the disconnect is, I think. When I see people say "people who want longer progression in a MMO are masochists", I see someone who doesn't get it - and not in a derogatory way. Someone calling another player a "masochist" is making that judgment based on their own personal preferences and expectations.
For someone whose priority in a MMO is "getting to the end", the idea of the process being a longer, slower one is the stuff of nightmares. I imagine the thought process could go something like this, "Man, leveling is so boring! Quests are pointless. Crafting? Yeah right. All of that is just useless filler. The only content that really matters is end-game. That's where the best raids and the best gear comes from. Why would anyone want it to take longer to get there? I'd have to be a masochist to want that".
Another variation is the "anyone who says they prefer slower leveling just sucks at playing MMOs and are trying to cover it up". I've actually seen that argument. Again, it's the logic of someone whose attitude is "End-Game ASAP or Bust", and can't imagine anyone else having any other view of it. It's true for them, so it must be true for everyone else.
Many people lack empathy, or an ability to see other points-of-view. Their entire world-view is centered around their own preferences, values and opinions, as are their judgments of others.
It's definitely a kind of closed-mindedness that leads to that kind of reasoning.
When I played FFXI, it took me about 3 years to get my first 75, and I played almost religiously. So why did it take so long? Because of all my time, I'd say only about 1/3 of it was spent actually leveling. The rest of the time, I was doing missions, farming stuff, helping others, or doing other content otherwise not related to leveling.
Now, to someone whose attitude is "it's all about end-game, and getting there as fast as possible", they'd read that paragraph and think "that sounds awful! What a waste of time!". Hell, a friend of mine used to go on about how "unoptimal" and "inefficient" my playstyle was, because I wasn't leveling faster. No matter how much I tried to explain to him that "efficiency" and "optimization" were not things I was concerned about when playing, his eyes glazed over and I'd get the thousand mile stare.
Because we were friends and could discuss these things without an ensuing flame war (as is typical around here), we talked about it at length. No matter what, he literally could not comprehend how my playstyle could possibly be fun, because his was so much more based around "go go go! level level level! Efficiency! Optimization!".
I imagine that's exactly what happens here. People have very hard-wired ideas of "fun" that are completely opposed to what others find fun, and me trying to explain to them how I could possibly be enjoying myself in a 3 year process to hit level cap (THE goal for them), is like trying to explain to someone how bashing yourself in the face with a hammer isn't painful.
Some, however, do get it. They can see and understand how for someone else the enjoyment of a MMO comes from simply playing it and being part of that world. They don't agree, but they can at least understand. Sadly, that type doesn't seem to be as numerous, or at least not as outspoken, around here.
If you don't want to rush your way through a game, don't. Stop to smell the flowers. Explore every nook and cranny. Find every little bit of lore that you can. Just because some people rush to the end doesn't mean that you have to. And when you do get to endgame, take it slowly. Or don't do it at all. Move on to the next game. You have those options, and complaining about other people using the options given to them in ways that you wouldn't is just whining.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
The original article seems to be an attempt of putting fragmented pieces that are lost back to together. The original poster is seeing glimpses and what i read out of your reply here. I think you are not able to put together.
All the money spent on these so called MMORPGs now days is mostly on pixel real estate
that is all but wasted with people having to rush to end for the content. I see what is being said about smelling the pixel flowers, however,. There is no reward for wandering around in a lowbie area because to be simple the designer did not care to have the land wandered around for content. I think one of the missing pieces in alot of mmos now days which is the seed that sprouted this whole thread is this. A leveling system leads to a game with only end type content. I have played mmos that leveling did not exist. You raised skill levels with weapons and could use certain weapons and you raised your skill level. Buy a so called starting area was everyones beginning area and i guess what is called end game area. You were just more efficient and killing those mobs then new players. Since there was no need have level appropiate areas designers were able to fill lands with hidden quests that had a slight chance to drop unheard of weapons armor or just loot. By exploring a land that could take you days you walked upon a quest that would make wandering interesting. And that npc didnt always there. So you couldnt tell everyone and everyone do it. What all this did was let designers build a world and it was constantly used so the designers did not need to continue building more worlds that were boring in 2 weeks. It was actually cheaper and people were more occupied
I agree with this column, and I'll go one higher. Auction houses suck too, although since crafting has become a tacked-on joke in most games, I don't suppose it matters anymore.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Originally posted by Athcear If you don't want to rush your way through a game, don't. Stop to smell the flowers. Explore every nook and cranny. Find every little bit of lore that you can. Just because some people rush to the end doesn't mean that you have to. And when you do get to endgame, take it slowly. Or don't do it at all. Move on to the next game. You have those options, and complaining about other people using the options given to them in ways that you wouldn't is just whining.
That's an excellent idea. The problem is - and the article touches on this - MMOs are designed these days to be so fast, and so easy that progress through the levels happens regardless. Last time I tried to play WoW, for example, I did my best to play slowly. Didn't matter. That game throws so much xp at you, that the only way I could not level quickly was to do something, stand around for a half hour.. do something.. stand around for a half hour.
One example of several I could give...
On my last return to WoW to check it out, I started a new character in Aldrassil. I had out-leveled all of Teldrassil before I was even up to the last quest, and Darkshore was already far too easy before I even got there, thanks to my levels flying up so quickly - and that pattern continued on through every area.
It's more difficult to not level quickly than it is to do so. It's thanks to the fact that developers are in this competition to make their games as fast, easy, convnenient and rewarding as possible, because it's basically the only way they know how to keep people playing anymore - keep them chasing the rewards, and keep those "dings" coming.
So, as much as I 100% agree with your suggestion, and used to suggest it myself in the past... I find that it's not really feasible in today's MMOs. The devs are hell-bent on leveling you quickly whether you want to or not.
Comments
I find it odd that your example of the way an mmorpg should NOT be happens to be the most successful MMO in history.
Just like I can say honestly that I think Justin Bieber makes bad music or Twilight is a bad book series even though both are some of the best selling products of their type in history. Sales do not equal quality.
Like you i also dislike the grindgame that most mmo's have for a endgame, what a pity. It reached a point where the only thing most developers are worried about is "do we have enough grind to keep ppl at endgame?". Players rush to endgame so they can start playing the real game because that's how the majority of mmo's are being done, it's silly.
I may be in the minority but i play an mmo for the journey, i spend my time seeing the things the game has as slowly level up, enjoying it (if it's possible). When i reach endgame i see what's there and then decide if there's anything worthwhile, if not i leave,
I remember playing Anarchy Online and City of heroes/villains for years (and not reaching endgame, always trying new things, experimenting with alts, having fun), but nowdays i may play for a couple months and then leave the game behind. Only exception is swtor but only because of the class stories, now that i finish them i just left.
It is a great pity what mmo's have become, but i still hope some developer out there has the brains and the funds (so it can do something different than a wow clone) to make a great mmo someday.
Human competition is the answer to most of that. For what reason you ask? And why within a bloody game , where everyone suppose to have fun and relax? Who knows? Perhaps it is in our nature . Bottom line is, i truly try hard to find my own pace in an end game 100-sprint madness, and let me tell you it IS hard. Great article man.
I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it
--Voltaire
Where else but in a game? Games, not just video games are competition activities. They are about challenges and overcoming them. That's where fun in games is. As for relaxing, you relax when laying down on the couch. A game does the opposite, it tests your reflexes and problem solving capabilities. Unless you play farmville or something.
That's where the fun in these games for you are- MMORPGs because of the multiplayer facet allow people to play not only for competition but also for cooperation. Some players like myself have no concern for challenge or competition whatsoever and only play for the multiplayer/social aspect. The challenges and overcoming them are simply a thing to do while socializing.
Maybe so but he was acting surprised why people look for challenges and competition in a game. That's the whole point for a lot of people to a game, giving them a challenge to overcome. If the mid-game will give them nothing then they will go in the end-game as soon as possible. People will go where the challenge is, can't blame them.
This is the best article i have read on this site...ever.
Players obsession with racing to the endgame to "play the real game" are a joke.
Not mention it is not a sustainable way to play a game when you are bored of it in a month because you have raced to the end.
Bring back the games that take you a week to go up a level and enjoy months worth of content.
That is the real game
This is the same mentality as the often heard phrase in single player games "I've beaten the game" what? you took it out back and gave it a right thrashing? Its a phrase that I've detested ever since I first heard it, games are for playing, yep remember that? playing for fun and finishing a game doesn't mean its beaten you just completed it once. Have another go if you enjoyed it, on a higher level, try to challenge yourself with trying to not die, use as little ammo as you can, roll a new class, try a new build, there are many many things you can do to prolong the fun if you actually play, yes just play like you did when you were young.
But this seems to be lost on many gamers old and young its like a notch on the bedpost to say you beaten the game in such and such time, though that is one way to play its not the only way to do it. And when this attitude is taken into the world of MMORPG's its spoils the fun for the rest of us who like to take our time and play. I like GW2 for its big open world, events, exploring, puzzles, vistas, lore, you can mooch around for hours just letting things happen naturally but the race to cap has forced Arenanet to change the core mechanics of the game and they have basically left the open world content to a lonely existence. Luckily I like playing alts and its OK for now, there is enough to see when you are playing 5 toons at once.
But many who play more than me are left out because the competitive gamers have bitched and moaned about no progression and nothing to do at endgame leaving others that would like new classes, zones, events, and other interesting things developed to just twiddle their fingers or just leave the game. Its seems like us gamers who enjoy the PvE journey are a bit of a minority or are we just not as bitching and whinny as the competitive players?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I also recoil anytime someone says endgame. In a virtual world type game there should be no such thing. You build you character over a long period of time with no linear paths or quest hubs and then protect your property/gain more property (be it cities/houses) in the open world.
Modern themepark MMO's are way off the mark and they have created the need for people sound like idiots and talk constantly about "endgame". There is this odd rush to the "end" because other people are already finished in your guild and they are waiting on you in order for you to raid (as there is nothing else to do in these games...unfortunately).
Back in vanilla WoW there were quite a few people who didn't hit max in 6 months. Yeah it did get a bit tedious in the 50-60 range and it probably could of been a bit faster. But it felt like an accomplishment just hitting max level. BC and Wrath had pretty good pacing as shipped, and it seemed like they were getting better at figuring out the right speed of progression. Since then however everything has been sped up so fast the entire thing is a blur. The one thing WoW had over their competitors was this huge volume of meaningful leveling content that provided a wonderful journey and adventure. Now it is so fast that advantage is pretty much moot, people rush to max get burned out and leave. Too much of a grind is bad, but make it to fast and easy and you lose the sense of accomplishment. Not only that you lose the journey and adventure and replace it with one big blur.
People who want to powerlevel will find a way(they did in vanilla), you don't need to dumb down the journey for everybody to accommodate them.
Since both sides each love to tell the other how they're "doin it wrong", it's just a gathering of old gossips shaking fingers at each other and scowling in disappointment.
Mrs. Grundy's team just leads the voting locally, because Mrs. Wiggins made her last good showing in 2004.
But players in general won't ever tire of telling the other team "my way is right, ur way is wrong", regardless of topic.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Everyone has gotten used to the journey. Its always the same progression wirth a nearly identical set of mechanics. The only difference is the story the journey is wrapped into. The combat has also become very easy which means there is basically nothing new or challenging during the leveling no matter the MMO. So everyone just rushes through with the hope that the endgame can deliver something worthwhile...Then the disappointment kicks in and the wait for the next MMO begins. Its a neverending cycle which only serves the pockets of the developers. As to why players do this: They are addicted and want to relive the good time they had in the first MMO they played.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Well that IS your opinion and your certainly allowed that.
I just hope that I'm not reported when I state in my opinion that's utter Bull, with no fact to support it.
I've played MMO's for years but never played a MMO for more then a few weeks once I got to the endgame. The reason its called endgame is because its the END of the game at least basically till new content is patched in.
Still different strokes for different folks. Have fun on your endgame hamster wheel rushing forward and going nowhere.
Not sure why you are so angry nor what you call the endgame hamster wheel is any different than the leveling wheel. But to refute your points endgame is simply where all the content is in MMOs. Modern MMOs have no leveling content. All new modern MMOs one can get to max in 2 days played or less. The content is at endgame.
If one actually plays a MMO they do it at endgame. If one only pretends to play a MMO they quit before endgame. I don't truly consider anyone actually having played a MMO until they at least have a 100 days played into the game. Almost all of that time will be at endgame. Not to mention in modern MMOs most leveling content can be completed with both eyes closed. It is almost impossible to die why leveling up as content is trivialized and dumbed down and simplified to appease the worst players with the shortest attention spans. This has been the case at endgame as well but at least there is a step up in difficulty, thought and challenge.
Nattering of Beldames.
The basic problem is that all of the mechanics involved in 'the journey' are essentially unchanged, and approaching two decades.
No one wants to alter it, though. "Give us back the turn of the century again."
1E+08 players, have all done the journey multiple times, with minor variations, for over a dozen years. Developers have proven nothing except that they cannot (won't?) concentrate on making "the journey" content very compelling any more (if they ever did). Was that turn of the century leveling content really compelling, or did the developers (luckily) have access to bunches of players without decades of leveling experience already under their belts?
Alternatives? Replacements? Different ideas? :cricket's chirp:
"Just give us 2000 back!", shouts the reactionary segment.
Someone, please; give them back 2000. So they can realize it just will not be a functional magic bullet for them, or anyone, any more.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Like yourself? :bow:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That really was it, honestly.
The mentality and expectations of players were so much different in those days. In those days, the fun of playing a given MMO was simply playing the given MMO. There definitely were some who had that "go go go" mentality and made it a point to race through everything just to beat everyone else. It was also a lonelier view from the top, considering most weren't in any hurry to get there.
Things only seem to take "too long" when you expect to achieve them in a certain time frame. A trip is only too slow when you're in a hurry to get to the end. Back then, for the most part, people simply weren't in a hurry. We approached the MMOs as long-term hobbies, things to be enjoyed and experienced with others, not raced through and "beaten" within a month.
That's where the disconnect is, I think. When I see people say "people who want longer progression in a MMO are masochists", I see someone who doesn't get it - and not in a derogatory way. Someone calling another player a "masochist" is making that judgment based on their own personal preferences and expectations.
For someone whose priority in a MMO is "getting to the end", the idea of the process being a longer, slower one is the stuff of nightmares. I imagine the thought process could go something like this, "Man, leveling is so boring! Quests are pointless. Crafting? Yeah right. All of that is just useless filler. The only content that really matters is end-game. That's where the best raids and the best gear comes from. Why would anyone want it to take longer to get there? I'd have to be a masochist to want that".
Another variation is the "anyone who says they prefer slower leveling just sucks at playing MMOs and are trying to cover it up". I've actually seen that argument. Again, it's the logic of someone whose attitude is "End-Game ASAP or Bust", and can't imagine anyone else having any other view of it. It's true for them, so it must be true for everyone else.
Many people lack empathy, or an ability to see other points-of-view. Their entire world-view is centered around their own preferences, values and opinions, as are their judgments of others.
It's definitely a kind of closed-mindedness that leads to that kind of reasoning.
When I played FFXI, it took me about 3 years to get my first 75, and I played almost religiously. So why did it take so long? Because of all my time, I'd say only about 1/3 of it was spent actually leveling. The rest of the time, I was doing missions, farming stuff, helping others, or doing other content otherwise not related to leveling.
Now, to someone whose attitude is "it's all about end-game, and getting there as fast as possible", they'd read that paragraph and think "that sounds awful! What a waste of time!". Hell, a friend of mine used to go on about how "unoptimal" and "inefficient" my playstyle was, because I wasn't leveling faster. No matter how much I tried to explain to him that "efficiency" and "optimization" were not things I was concerned about when playing, his eyes glazed over and I'd get the thousand mile stare.
Because we were friends and could discuss these things without an ensuing flame war (as is typical around here), we talked about it at length. No matter what, he literally could not comprehend how my playstyle could possibly be fun, because his was so much more based around "go go go! level level level! Efficiency! Optimization!".
I imagine that's exactly what happens here. People have very hard-wired ideas of "fun" that are completely opposed to what others find fun, and me trying to explain to them how I could possibly be enjoying myself in a 3 year process to hit level cap (THE goal for them), is like trying to explain to someone how bashing yourself in the face with a hammer isn't painful.
Some, however, do get it. They can see and understand how for someone else the enjoyment of a MMO comes from simply playing it and being part of that world. They don't agree, but they can at least understand. Sadly, that type doesn't seem to be as numerous, or at least not as outspoken, around here.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
The original article seems to be an attempt of putting fragmented pieces that are lost back to together. The original poster is seeing glimpses and what i read out of your reply here. I think you are not able to put together.
All the money spent on these so called MMORPGs now days is mostly on pixel real estate
that is all but wasted with people having to rush to end for the content. I see what is being said about smelling the pixel flowers, however,. There is no reward for wandering around in a lowbie area because to be simple the designer did not care to have the land wandered around for content. I think one of the missing pieces in alot of mmos now days which is the seed that sprouted this whole thread is this. A leveling system leads to a game with only end type content. I have played mmos that leveling did not exist. You raised skill levels with weapons and could use certain weapons and you raised your skill level. Buy a so called starting area was everyones beginning area and i guess what is called end game area. You were just more efficient and killing those mobs then new players. Since there was no need have level appropiate areas designers were able to fill lands with hidden quests that had a slight chance to drop unheard of weapons armor or just loot. By exploring a land that could take you days you walked upon a quest that would make wandering interesting. And that npc didnt always there. So you couldnt tell everyone and everyone do it. What all this did was let designers build a world and it was constantly used so the designers did not need to continue building more worlds that were boring in 2 weeks. It was actually cheaper and people were more occupied
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
That's an excellent idea. The problem is - and the article touches on this - MMOs are designed these days to be so fast, and so easy that progress through the levels happens regardless. Last time I tried to play WoW, for example, I did my best to play slowly. Didn't matter. That game throws so much xp at you, that the only way I could not level quickly was to do something, stand around for a half hour.. do something.. stand around for a half hour.
One example of several I could give...
On my last return to WoW to check it out, I started a new character in Aldrassil. I had out-leveled all of Teldrassil before I was even up to the last quest, and Darkshore was already far too easy before I even got there, thanks to my levels flying up so quickly - and that pattern continued on through every area.
It's more difficult to not level quickly than it is to do so. It's thanks to the fact that developers are in this competition to make their games as fast, easy, convnenient and rewarding as possible, because it's basically the only way they know how to keep people playing anymore - keep them chasing the rewards, and keep those "dings" coming.
So, as much as I 100% agree with your suggestion, and used to suggest it myself in the past... I find that it's not really feasible in today's MMOs. The devs are hell-bent on leveling you quickly whether you want to or not.