what is really going to be the best thing about Vanguard:Will u play it?

surjstrife · December 2005

iv heard great things, but u know how they turn out when released..what do u think is gonna be the best part about Vanguard...will u play it?

lunamonster · December 2005

I'm curious about how they are doing diplomacy and crafting. They sound like they have awesome systems there. Also instancing is the devil and challenge is good ::::09:: . I will play it.

niksa · December 2005

Crafting!

Actually the whole game seems like it has a new design entirely, so I'm pretty excited to see what this will entail.

n2sooners · December 2005

I am curious about crafting and diplomacy, but the combat system looks very promising, and everyone knows it's all about the combat. ::::01::

dunadurium · December 2005

I would have to say im most looking forward to the player built and controlled ships-they haven't released specifics but its supposed to be a really nice complex system to actually control ships, the big ones probably requiring a few people to control. Then you'll also be able to vary their speed by different spells from different caster classes etc, sounds really good, and the base systems for ships are already in according to Olohs beta review, so its not something that is promised and never implemented... like some games (hintEQ2hint).

But also having travel as a base mechanic that they built the game around from the beginning means that the world will actually have a feeling of scale, but they say they are trying to make travel fun in and of itself so you are not just auto running for hours, which is also great. I hate games where they try to solve this problem by completely eliminating travel and just giving you teleportation to wherever you want (ie Guild wars insta port to instance, griffins in WoW, teleports in EQ2 etc etc) . that just completely trivializes the world and makes it feel very small. In Vanguard you will have land mounts fairly early (lev 15?) and they will increase travel speeds and also carry stuff, sort of like a mobile bank. And while travelling they mentioned very discreetly that you can get ambushed by mobs and not notice it till the last second if your perception isn't high enough etc.

AND because of this actual need to travel (there will not be long distance teleports at all ) the different areas in the world will actually feel unique and like far off distant lands compared to your starting areas. they are really emphasizing this actually with even different types of human races for each main continent that are not the same in appearance, so there will be real diversity in the world. Actual travel time also means that there can be real merchants that import and export goods that are rare in one area but available in another, such as for crafting. They may need to hire some help(they've hinted at NPC mercenaries for hire etc) or bring a group to get them throught high lev areas. This is also something that has never before been seen in an MMO save for maybe extremely niche game tike A Tale in the Desert(but not really even there)

Yeah and crafting and harvesting are also ALOT more in depth then any mmo ever.

Yes and I also cant wait to see Diplomacy, and player built and run cities and economies

Now that i think of it there are just so many more things but it would take way too long to type, and i guess those above are the first things that came to mind as the most exciting stuff.

Dunadurium

Isikari · December 2005

All the afore-mentioned topics (Especiall combat) appeal to me, but I won't be playing Vanguard, at least not at release. I was very interested in it for a while, going as far as getting a guild website up and running, but its ties to SOE put a stop to that. I realize that its kind of irrational, but really all the games from them i've played have really not turned out that great. Planetside was ruined, SWG as well, and EQII just didn't live up to its expectations (One might say that the Hype surrounding the game made the expectations impossible to live up to, but really it just wasn't that great).

I'll wait for a few months to see how the game is turning out and look at some feedback on their official forums, I don't want to jump into something thats going to crash and burn.

~ Helios Isikari

lunamonster · December 2005

Ties ti SOE? There are a lot of devs there that used to work for SOE but the devs that ruined star wars galaxies are still at SOE. Most of the ones that did work on planetside would have done it in the early stages of the game anyway (when it was still a 'good' game).

dunadurium · December 2005

Yeah a chunk of the team is composed of old SOE employees but i assure you that Brad picked and chose the best of them. Just check the team bios. That being said most are not from SOE at all.

Dunadurium

Amocus · December 2005

I'm going to check it out certainly, but I doubt I'll play it. I played EQ when Brad's vision ran things and personally, his vision is too hardcore for someone who likes to get up from the computer for more than sleeping.

dunadurium · December 2005

Originally posted by Amocus

I'm going to check it out certainly, but I doubt I'll play it. I played EQ when Brad's vision ran things and personally, his vision is too hardcore for someone who likes to get up from the computer for more than sleeping.

lol thats a good way to put it.

This time around though Brads said he wants to focus on the "core" market, meaning it wont be as hardcore as EQ. They know the market trends and therefore are'nt making a game as harcore as EQ. this is based on what brad has said in the past and i guess we'll have to play to really find out though..

Dunadurium

Jorev · December 2005

The best thing sounds like it will be a significant battle loss penalty that actually stings. This will slow down the leveling/advancement process, allow skilled players to shine, and keep the gameworld real, providing some immersion.

I won't play it however, because it will be geared for raid oriented players and is solo unfriendly.

dunadurium · December 2005

originally posted by Jorev

The best thing sounds like it will be a significant battle loss penalty that actually stings. This will slow down the leveling/advancement process, allow skilled players to shine, and keep the gameworld real, providing some immersion.

I won't play it however, because it will be geared for raid oriented players and is solo unfriendly.

OK im getting real tired of this real fast...
Here you go, direct from the faq on www.silkyvenom.com:

Originally found in Silky Venom FAQ 37.2 " Someone said most of your content is going to be for groups? Does that mean there's no raiding?"

Vanguard is targeting the 'core' gamer. It will have three types of content: casual, group, and raid. Casual and raid will be the minority, with most content group oriented.

I know some people accuse EQ of being too raid oriented. I would say Vanguard will be less so. But we also think raiding is very important and fun. Our goal from the beginning was to create a world that would support core gamers, as well as more casual or people with less time, as well as those crazy raiders you refer to.

Aradune Mithara

[source: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=618]

So this whole "raid oriented" thing can stop now right?
Yes they will have raiding, yes they will also have soloing, but the game is GROUP ORIENTED, like people have said a million times. Just because some moron in another thread starts whinning how Vanguard will be "raid oriented", everyone doesnt have to follow along.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Dunadurium

Jorev · December 2005

Originally posted by dunadurium

originally posted by Jorev

The best thing sounds like it will be a significant battle loss penalty that actually stings. This will slow down the leveling/advancement process, allow skilled players to shine, and keep the gameworld real, providing some immersion.

I won't play it however, because it will be geared for raid oriented players and is solo unfriendly.

OK im getting real tired of this real fast...
Here you go, direct from the faq on www.silkyvenom.com:

Originally found in Silky Venom FAQ 37.2 " Someone said most of your content is going to be for groups? Does that mean there's no raiding?"

Vanguard is targeting the 'core' gamer. It will have three types of content: casual, group, and raid. Casual and raid will be the minority, with most content group oriented.

I know some people accuse EQ of being too raid oriented. I would say Vanguard will be less so. But we also think raiding is very important and fun. Our goal from the beginning was to create a world that would support core gamers, as well as more casual or people with less time, as well as those crazy raiders you refer to

[source: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=618]

So this whole "raid oriented" thing can stop now right?
Yes they will have raiding, yes they will also have soloing, but the game is GROUP ORIENTED, like people have said a million times. Just because some moron in another thread starts whinning how Vanguard will be "raid oriented", everyone doesnt have to follow along.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Dunadurium

I saw nothing in that official quote about soloing. Casual gaming does not equal soloing. That is a misconception as there are many hardcore soloers.

Raid item drops generally offer the best and most desirable rewards. If a MMOG designs raiding as the eclipse of so called "end game" content, then it is raid oriented. Sorry if that fact bothers you.

However, if those rewards are all tradeable, which logically all items should be anyways, then soloers and regular group oriented players who do not like raiding won't be alienated. I don't believe this will be the case with Vanguard and that those items will have illogical no-drop no-trade tags, which will exclude non raiders completely from access unless they raid. By doing so the developers are mandating raiding as a required part of the game or you will be a second class citizen.

A game can be solo friendly, group friendly, and raid friendly if all playstyle choices have equal content. Note, equal does not mean the same content. Soloers and group players who do not wish to raid just expect enough content for their playstyle choices. All items in the game also need to be tradeable as to not alienate any type of player by validating one playstyle choice over another.

dunadurium · December 2005

37.11 Will grouping be forced in Vanguard or will I be able to Solo?

Yes, you will be able to solo. You will be able to solo more effectively in 'casual' areas than in group and raid areas. You will likely have difficulty soloing in group areas and extreme difficulty in raid areas (e.g. probably isn't going to happen). Some of you may enjoy soloing in Vanguard, and some of you may find it too tedious or slow or not rewarding enough... Are we designing Vanguard as a solo-oriented game? No. The focus is on grouping. Does that mean we hate soloing and want to make it impossible? No, certainly not, but it will take a 'second seat' so to speak...

You will always be more efficient and encouraged to group, even in casual areas, although you won't need a large group. The casual areas are geared towards small groups and also designed such that one can achieve advancement in shorter contiguous chunks of gameplay, so these areas should be attractive not only to the more casual gamer, but even the hard core raid gamer who just has an hour or so to log on and wants to be able to move his character forward in some way.
Source: Official FAQ

We are NOT trying to drive out solo players -- that would be foolish. In fact, we're making casual areas to support solo players, as well as players who have less contiguous time to play, and then even the occasional more hard core player who wants to log on briefly and actually still get something done.

The focus of the game is on the group experience. On each side, you have the solo or more casual content, and then the raid content.

You also touched on some reasons, as did I, as to why people solo. A big one is that it's hard to find a group. We agree and are doing a bunch of things to make it easy to find a group and to keep that group together -- in fact, we believe strongly that grouping is one of the cornerstones behind community building, especially pick-up groups. I can't promise you that you'll always find a group, but I will promise you that we'll do our best to bring people together, by the way we lay out the world, with various game mechanics, abilities, tools, etc. So, in a nutshell, having any significant number of people who would rather group but are forced to solo is something we can't allow.

Then there are people who simply like to solo, but to solo in an online game. I've seen some people ask these people, hey, why the heck are you playing a multiplayer game if you want to solo? Honestly, I think this is a little narrowsighted. Just because it doesn't appeal to you, doesn't mean that somebody else likes to solo in an environment with other people because it makes the world seem more alive, or, really for whatever their reason is. People are different.

Now, will these people like Vanguard? Good question. I think some will, and some won't. You *will* be able to solo in Vanguard, but it will be more difficult, you will advance more slowly, and you won't be able to realistically access many areas (and so will either not obtain some better items or have to buy/trade for them). That will turn some solo players off and while we regret that, I don't see how we could cater to them and our primary target audience both: those who like to group. But I think there are other solo players who don't mind this. If they want something, they don't mind deciding to either not worry about it, or perhaps to group on a rare occasion and see that area or obtain that item, or even save their money and buy it in-game. This subset of solo player is usually less competitive and more focused on his character and his accomplishments and less on what other people are doing. That solo player I think could have a great time in Vanguard.

Just to make sure I'm being consistent with what I've said in the past: we are making content for casual, group, and raid. Obviously, the solo player would be playing in the casual areas. But even the casual areas are designed for small pick-up groups. So he'll be able to progress, but still not as quickly or as effectively as if he were to join a small group of people and play a while.

The reason we did this is because we think there are more people who want casual areas because they have less time to play, or more specifically less contiguous time to play, and still want to be able to log in, advance, and have a good time. We feel there are more people like that than those who insist on soloing (wrong or right, that's how we're looking at it). So they are the target audience for the casual regions, more so than the solo player, but I don't think it will exclude the solo player either.

I've also said that, when asked to make comparisons, that the ability to solo will likely turn out to be about as effective as it was to solo in EQ. Now this is a very broad and general statement. Some classes could solo a lot better in EQ, plus there were some exploits that went on for some time that would allow solo players to advance relatively quickly (eg more quickly than what was designed). Addressing this, we hope our approach to classes with our Job system makes it such that there isn't a specific class that always solos better. But we do make mistakes, and I imagine there will still be, but hopefully it won't be as bad. And as for exploits, well, we have to fix those right away for a variety of reasons -- not to screw the solo player, but to maintain the overall health and integrity of the game. So *roughly* similar to EQ and other games where you could similarly solo, but not exactly the same either.
Source: Aradune Mithara

You can solo the casual content (mobs) right now in beta. We're still making lots of tweaks, but this should remain true. A group of 2-3 is more efficient, of course, but you can solo.

But please make sure you've read the multple posts I and others have made regarding this topic. The vast majority of the game is focused on group content (something like 4-8 players, working together). That is where most of the content will be geared for, where most of the good loot will be found, most of the adventure. And, honestly, IMHO, most of the fun. I'm not saying soloing won't be fun. A lot of this is subjective and relative to the player and what he or she enjoys. But right now the group/guild I play with nightly consists of 6-8 players and we are able to enjoy the dungeons and other areas meant for our level range. And it's a blast.

Note I'm talking here mostly about the adventuring sphere. The other spheres are to some degree more doable with less people in your group, and some very doable individually. We're shooting for variety here, not just for those who like to group less, but also those who like to group but perhaps are on when their buddies aren't, or who have less time to find a group and head into the depths of a dungeon some night and still want something to do, areas where they can advance, activities where they are still having fun. - mid October 2005
Source: Aradune Mithara

[source: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=618]

as you can see they are being very honest and frank.

and as for no drop:

22.23 Will there be soulbound/no drop items?

There are no plans for No-Drop items in Vanguard.
Source: Tagad
[Source: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=413]

another one you might like:

22.10 What is your overall approach to itemization, especially item upgrades, 'transitional' items and the ability for casuals to gain useful items?

In general, itemization is much more planned out. We do use some algorythmically generated data and point calculators for balance TO START WITH. At this point, please resist worrying that our items will have no soul because they are only randomly generated stuff after you punch in a level range. We designed it to start us off, not to finish the items. It helps with balance and tells us what we need. The designer than takes the recommendation, makes sure its relatively balanced for where it, how difficult the encounter, etc. And then he creates an instance of that item based on the template and tweaks it and gives it personality, story, a cool name, context, and thinks about what it offers who and where. So this, not taken too far, and don't worry, gives us a good start. It should avoid very disparate itemization in different dungeons that share a similar level range. That is good(TM). And it should retain the hands-on handcrafted feel to our items, which adds to immersion and makes us believe we truly are wearing the Iron Crown of the Fire Giant Warlord.

So, progression. Remember that the focus of the game, or the primary game, is the grouping game targeting the 'core' gamer. Not hard core, nor casual, though we want to appeal to them to, as long as it doesn't intefere with our primary audience.

So the best stuff drops and/or is harvestable from areas that require you to group... dungeons, towers, mines, etc. So if you want to play there effectively, you'll need that equipment.

But then there's items that are from casual mobs, store bought, and then items that are crafted. The first 2 are lower end items, but good enough to do casual content. There will be a progression. You will feel like you are moving up, either being able to buy that new long sword, or looting those greaves from a casual mob, or buying a magic ring from a crafter. But will it be as exciting as grouping? Depends on who we are talking about. I think most people prefer grouping, though many will enjoy the casual. Many will also enjoy the other ways, as mentioned in a recent post, to advance your character that doesn't involve the grouping adventure game (diplomacy, harvesting, crafting, etc.). But I still think a lot of people will enjoy the casual. But is is a challenge. It needs to be fun and engaging, but by definition cannot be as engaging, complicated, detailed, or even perhaps as exciting as a group encounter. This is simply the way it is. Nor, as mentioned, will loot as good as those from group mobs drop on casual.

Another thing to keep in mind is that casual content is not only for the solo player or the guy who likes to group with only 1 or 2 people. It's also, and this is as important (some would argue moreso), for players who do focus on the grouping game, but don't have a lot of time that night, or their buddies aren't on for whatever reason. He needs to be able to advance his character some way, whether it's killing casuals, or harvesting, or parlay, or crafting, etc. That's a very important part of Vanguard -- yes, the grouping game is primary, but having alternate and meaningful activities for players to do when a group doesn't work out for whatever reason is a close second.

So, and hopefully more to your point, if you focus on the casual content in the game, you will find/buy items that make you better, and as you level up, acquire wealth, skills, etc. you will find better equipment, and should feel a sense of accomplishment.

But that equipment most likely wouldn't cut it in a grouping region, and most certainly not in a raid area. Those mobs are harder, more situational, and don't just require more attention when playing (making sure you counter that spell, etc.), but also require that you have items that are at least close to the level range of the group dungeon you are in.

It can't really be any other way. If you want to only be casual, you will progress, but as I've said in the past, you won't have the same stuff as the guy who groups, or who raids. Same with the other spheres and how much time you invest.

If you gauge your accomplishments based on what YOU accomplished you will be happy. The player who has convinced hiimself that he has to 'catch' some high level player in terms of items, whether casual, group, or raid is probably always going to be frustrated. Or maybe he finds it fun -- if so, God bless 'em. - 27 October 2005
Source: Aradune Mithara

[Source: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=413]

logical isnt it?

i hope i dont have to quote the WHOLE faq for you though, you should really read it though for yourself because there is alot i think you would find interesting (the silkyvenom faq is much better than the official one btw) and i dont think you have an accurate impression of the game.(just my opinion of course).

-Dunadurium

angerr · December 2005

great post dunadurium ::::08::

and there should be nodrop items IMO, i really would rather not play a game full of ebayed twinks especially on a pvp server. but if there isn't that is fine with me just as long as they do something about gold farming and keep the ebayers to a minimum.

dunadurium · December 2005

Originally posted by angerr

great post dunadurium
and there should be nodrop items IMO, i really would rather not play a game full of ebayed twinks especially on a pvp server. but if there isn't that is fine with me just as long as they do something about gold farming and keep the ebayers to a minimum.

Why Thank you

And yeah i hear ya, i would really hate to see that too. But i guess that even with Sigil's strong stance against the secondary market, there will still be people who sell and buy and probably even if there was no-drop on the real powerful items. They have said they are planning to do something about it though(especially against IGE) so i guess we will see. Although with every item being tradable, the positive is that its going to create a much more natural economy and feel to the game.

Dunadurium

Jorev · December 2005

Well my observations about the game being raid oriented and solo unfriendly are still true according to what they describe, but if they stay true to keeping all rewards tradeable, then no type of player will feel alienated because of their playstyle choice, which is good.

I enjoy a difficult and challenging setting to solo in such as EQ1 was originally and it makes perfect sense for some classes to be more viable for soloing while the trade off is that other classes will be more desirable for grouping. It's a playstyle choice which class you pick. As long as there is sufficient content for soloers, groupers, and raiders alike, everyone should be happy.

The crafting system is still a deal breaker for me though. Crafting is very important to me and I need to be able to solo crafting. Now one might say, you can, since all materials are tradeable according to that official statement, but that didn't matter in EQ1 when Planes of Power expansion added recipes with ingredients found only in those Planes, a group/raid area. It was impossible for me to trade for those materials as the guilds who hunted there would horde them and powerskill their own crafters.

Not fun and defeats the point of crafting if you can only make the lower 75% of crafted items your chosen trade has to offer.

Zippy · December 2005

Originally posted by Jorev
The crafting system is still a deal breaker for me though. Crafting is very important to me and I need to be able to solo crafting. Now one might say, you can, since all materials are tradeable according to that official statement, but that didn't matter in EQ1 when Planes of Power expansion added recipes with ingredients found only in those Planes, a group/raid area.

I think your confused as to crafting. You can advance your crafter solo by doing work orders for the town npcs who will provide you with the appropiate resources needed. Making items for players will require more than one crafter as you will need a group of crafters to make better items. Crafting the best gear will require all 3 spheres adventure, crafting and diplomacy. But simply advancing your crafter can be solo. It has been said that reaching the maximum level in crafting will take as long as reaching the maximum in the adventure sphere. Vanguard Crafters,http://www.vanguardcrafters.com/, is an excellent source for crafting information Crafting is one of the primary focuses of this game.

You shoud really read the silky Venom FAQ as suggested by Dunadurium in his excellent post above. You might find it enjoyable and it would be a much easier and faster way for you to have questions answered rather than posting them here.

Great post Dunadurium. It was very enjoyable to read. You might know the answer to this. I saw a post on the official forums a few weeks ago that claimed that Brad said raid size would be smaller than EQ and that most raids would be 1-2 groups in size. I have not found this anywhere and as I write this I doubt its accuracy. I have found little on SIlky Venom or in my searches on the official site. The only thing I have seen is what it said the silky venom faq. http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586. Thanks again.

Tithrielle · December 2005

The best thing possible would be if it 'feels' like EQ1... and yes I will play it.

Foolery · December 2005

iv heard great things, but u know how they turn out when released..what do u think is gonna be the best part about Vanguard...will u play it?

All I have to say is, never forget what hype can do (let us not forget Guildwars ::::07:: )

Jorev · December 2005

Originally posted by Zippy

Originally posted by Jorev
The crafting system is still a deal breaker for me though. Crafting is very important to me and I need to be able to solo crafting. Now one might say, you can, since all materials are tradeable according to that official statement, but that didn't matter in EQ1 when Planes of Power expansion added recipes with ingredients found only in those Planes, a group/raid area.

I think your confused as to crafting. You can advance your crafter solo by doing work orders for the town npcs who will provide you with the appropiate resources needed. Making items for players will require more than one crafter as you will need a group of crafters to make better items. Crafting the best gear will require all 3 spheres adventure, crafting and diplomacy. But simply advancing your crafter can be solo. It has been said that reaching the maximum level in crafting will take as long as reaching the maximum in the adventure sphere. Vanguard Crafters,http://www.vanguardcrafters.com/, is an excellent source for crafting information Crafting is one of the primary focuses of this game.

You shoud really read the silky Venom FAQ as suggested by Dunadurium in his excellent post above. You might find it enjoyable and it would be a much easier and faster way for you to have questions answered rather than posting them here.

Great post Dunadurium. It was very enjoyable to read. You might know the answer to this. I saw a post on the official forums a few weeks ago that claimed that Brad said raid size would be smaller than EQ and that most raids would be 1-2 groups in size. I have not found this anywhere and as I write this I doubt its accuracy. I have found little on SIlky Venom or in my searches on the official site. The only thing I have seen is what it said the silky venom faq. http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586. Thanks again.

I have actually already hashed it out with the crafting designer on the Vanguard forums months ago. He said the best crafted items will require materials harvested or dropped in group/raid areas which means they will be off limit to me as a soloer. My experience in EQ1 of trying to trade for those items was unsuccessful, which suggests it would be no different in Vanguard. Prior to Planes of Power expansion in EQ1, I could solo craft all items my chosen trade, tailoring, had to offer, as both an adventurer and crafter.

As a soloing crafter in Vanguard, I would expect to work much harder to advance in all realms of adventuring, crafting, diplomacy, and I am willing to put in the time and effort to do so even if it takes me 3 times longer than just a crafter only player. I accept that challenge as a soloer, just don't deny me the possibility by limiting what a single character or account with multiple characters can do.

Being able to max your crafting skill thru NPC work orders matters not if you can't actually make the best items for players on a semi regular basis.

dunadurium · December 2005

Originally posted by Zippy

Great post Dunadurium. It was very enjoyable to read. You might know the answer to this. I saw a post on the official forums a few weeks ago that claimed that Brad said raid size would be smaller than EQ and that most raids would be 1-2 groups in size. I have not found this anywhere and as I write this I doubt its accuracy. I have found little on SIlky Venom or in my searches on the official site. The only thing I have seen is what it said the silky venom faq. http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586. Thanks again.

Thank you also,

And i was actually searching for the exact same thing a few weeks ago but i couldnt find a clear answer. Doing another search right now all i found was the same(yes and most of it is in the faq): Raid sizes will vary and there will not be very many large ones. Now as to what constitutes "large" i do not know, but in assuming 50-70 based on eq sizes. There was a post i remember though that said that guild size restriction will be 30 but that turned out to be proven untrue.

And also another mechanic they have mentioned that you are probably already aware of is the "trivial raid encounters"(thats what ill call it) where if you bring too many people the mob may leave, or not be there etc. So for example if you have a group of 60 lev 50's trying to raid a young dragons lair, the young dragon may get freaked and fly away, tough luck, next time you'll know not to bring that many players.

So that ties in with what another person in the other Vanguard thread (the "Vanguard wont flop" one) said about raids not being challenging because the large amount of players etc. with this system it'll keep raids somewhat balanced and challenging.

as to Jorev,

The goal is that the crafters will be crafting the very rare and truly powerfully items only rarely, hence the definition of the "rare" item, but they will be doing so from the materials that are brought to them by adventurers, they will not be expected to go adventuring themselves or group with adventurers all the time(except for rare occasions when they what to get to a really good crafting station down in dungeons or in hard to reach locations, but those are for things like epic items etc.)

And yes you will be able to make "good"-"great" items often simply by the fact that adventurers and Diplomats will want specific items and therefore collect the components needed to craft those specific things for them(because crafters will be the only ones where they can get those items made). of course there will be the flip side of this, where you can just craft the items and try to sell them to the people that want them, and you can do that because the profit that you create from selling them will pay for the components that you will need to buy. Seriously, how is crafting in any other game? you still need to buy some of your materials no matter what you do. Same goes for Vanguard except you will have the option of getting the work orders for the really trivial items so there isn't a million of the same thing floating around in the world. the difference is that there is a lot more interclass dependances instead of just relying on NPC vendors for components. This is good in my opinion because you are then only crafting real items that are worthwhile and mean something to people(therefore they will actually buy them and go looking for those components that are needed) unlike in other games where you are trying to sell 100 flimsy leather boots just to recoup your loses. Remember though that this is an INTER-dependance meaning that both sides will benefit (both the crafter and the person seeking something to be crafted for them) so it will not be like in other games where most of your items are worthless because there are much better ones available from NPC vendors or mob drops. therefore being a crafter is "real" in the sense that you are actually in demand to do what your role is which is craft meaningful items. And this also does NOT mean that you cant solo a crafter it just means that instead of NPC's being your suppliers for the good items or you adventuring for them yourself (which is still very possible, you just have more content that you need to do because crafting is so indepth), you will have real players as your suppliers. Which is much more realistic IMO.

And again i read that you had discussions on the forums with Silius but i still highly recommend the faq page as there is literally a TON of info on crafting, and all the posts Silius has made( mainly in the "Crafting, the truth is out there." thread, which i suspect you were talking about) and many of the other devs are all organized into clear categories so you can really form a good idea about crafting(besides there has been some new info released since a few months ago that is interesting):

http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=146

And as i see you are a crafter so here is another page with info on the actually crafter classes, its pretty exciting too:

http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=284

-Dunadurium

Elnator · December 2005

As with all other MMORPG's I've ever played:
I will not buy the game until I experience a Free trial of the RETAIL game. Even if I make it into the beta, which I may try... dunno... bout tired of beta's anyway... I won't buy the game till AFTER it releases and after I try a free trial.

That said, I think Vanguard is one of the big names to watch for upcoming MMORPG releases. Brad's already proven he can release a quality game. So I have pretty high expectations for what his new team can achieve. Whether it's good or not we'll see in the end.

But I won't be buying Vanguard (or any other MMO) until a free trial convinces me that it's worth buying. And BETA Doesn't count as a free trial.

Jorev · December 2005

Dunadurium I appreciate you taking the time to list all that information and trying to convince me that I can solo as a crafter in Vanguard, but it's just not the case.

Vanguard's 3 separate sphere system means that you can't play a crafter and adventurer at the same time, and you can't just switch back and forth while out and about, you have to decide which you will play before you leave town. Not sure how diplomacy will effect crafting but that is a 3rd aspect also.

According to the Faq, some materials will be harvested or dropped by/for only crafters, who will obviously need an adventurer or many adventurers with them to help them slay mobs and gain access to those areas. Well as a soloer that doesn't work for me.

The other option is to buy the ingredients from others. As I explained earlier, which you apparently missed, that may sound good in theory, but doesn't happen in the real game world. I know from experience, it didn't happen in EQ1 with the ingredients from Planes of Power. The guilds hoarded all the ingredients and would not part with them and powerskilled their own crafters.

EQ1 prior to Planes of Power had the best crafting system. It was damn hard to max out one's skill in order to master tailoring which ensured that most who tried would quit, because most people are lazy. Well that allowed those of us who made the effort to reap the benefits and kept our numbers low. That in turn along with the rarity of ingredients and high fail rate which consumed ingredients, kept the best crafted items rare. In 3 years I maybe made a dozen ice silk robes and you hardly ever saw someone wearing one. Tailoring in EQ1 required all ingredients to be hunted for and I rarely bought ingredients from others, simply because the good ones were either not available or they were priced above what would be reasonable.

The only solution with Vanguard's system in order to solo crafting, would be to multibox and I ain't gonna do that. I despise multiboxing. Just say no to bots.

Zippy · December 2005

Originally posted by Jorev

Dunadurium I appreciate you taking the time to list all that information and trying to convince me that I can solo as a crafter in Vanguard, but it's just not the case.
Vanguard's 3 separate sphere system means that you can't play a crafter and adventurer at the same time, and you can't just switch back and forth while out and about, you have to decide which you will play before you leave town. Not sure how diplomacy will effect crafting but that is a 3rd aspect also.
According to the Faq, some materials will be harvested or dropped by/for only crafters, who will obviously need an adventurer or many adventurers with them to help them slay mobs and gain access to those areas. Well as a soloer that doesn't work for me.
The other option is to buy the ingredients from others. As I explained earlier, which you apparently missed, that may sound good in theory, but doesn't happen in the real game world. I know from experience, it didn't happen in EQ1 with the ingredients from Planes of Power. The guilds hoarded all the ingredients and would not part with them and powerskilled their own crafters.
...
The only solution with Vanguard's system in order to solo crafting, would be to multibox and I ain't gonna do that. I despise multiboxing. Just say no to bots.

I dont think you understand. To advance a crafter you don't need ingridients. YOu don't need adventurers to harvest for you. You can advance solo by doing work orders for the town npcs who will provide you the needed ingridients. Now will this be a fun system? I don't know. In the work orders you make generic items for town npcs. When you make items for players it will be more complicated and will require drops and often the assitance another crafter. But it does not appear that making items for other players is an efficient way to level.

If you want to make items for otehr players you will either have to ask them to get the materials as harvesting is part of the adventure sphere, have them buy it themselves or you will have to buy it yourself and mark it up. Now you might say that people will not sell harvested items. That has not be my experience. Look at Horizons hardly anyone played but there was always a good supply of harvested items for sale. But the point is you can advance your character by soloing if that is what you wish.

This game may not be for you. There are lots of other games out there that will be more solo friendly. Its primarily a group game. Soloing will be harder as an adventurer and possibly more difficlt as a crafter. But its doable if that is what you wish.

dunadurium · December 2005

Originally posted by Jorev

Dunadurium I appreciate you taking the time to list all that information and trying to convince me that I can solo as a crafter in Vanguard [you are very welcome] , but it's just not the case.
Vanguard's 3 separate sphere system means that you can't play a crafter and adventurer at the same time, and you can't just switch back and forth while out and about, you have to decide which you will play before you leave town [that is correct, you will be able to switch them at outposts to be more accurate though. Outposts are much more common throughout the world and provide multiple purposes such as that being where you go if you die, and you will tether your mounts there (you will not be able to take your mount everywhere, such as rugged terrain and dungeons) and yes that is where you will be able to change equipment(stored on your tethered horse) and spheres because Changing spheres requires changing cloths , not actually physically dropping stats and physically changing to another "mode" or whatnot. and yes they did do this directly to encourage cooperation between people, however that does not reflect the inability to solo in crafting, outposts will also be where you hitch player caravans BTW] . Not sure how diplomacy will effect crafting but that is a 3rd aspect also. [Diplomacy will largely affect crafting as well because diplomats need items as much as adventurers and you will also be dependant on them in some cases as a crafter]
According to the Faq, some materials will be harvested or dropped by/for only crafters, who will obviously need an adventurer or many adventurers with them to help them slay mobs and gain access to those areas [yes, or the adventurers can grab those dropped materials and if they see they are needed for an item that they need, keep them(so they can get the other materials needed for that item and commission a crafter to make it for them), or sell them, or trade them to a crafter for something of equal value, etc, it will all balance out. just because the materials drop from mobs, doesn't always mean that only crafters can pick them up and so thats where the interdependence comes in and why i said that the players will be the actual suppliers to crafters]. Well as a soloer that doesn't work for me.
The other option is to buy the ingredients from others. As I explained earlier, which you apparently missed, that may sound good in theory, but doesn't happen in the real game world ["the real game world" in this case has been designed with these concepts to be integral parts of the game and so no other game has been made in this way and that is why im confident it'll work, of course this is another thing we can not possible know at this point. however because of the huge chunk of their game that will revolve around crafting (1 third) i am pretty sure they will make it work] . I know from experience, it didn't happen in EQ1 with the ingredients from Planes of Power. [yes this is what im referring to, because the game wasn't set up with crafting items and such in combination with game expansion, this could not work. you got to admit thought hat PoP "broke" a lot more than just crafting] The guilds hoarded all the ingredients and would not part with them and powerskilled their own crafters. [you should check out Sigils ideas to curb bottom feeding ]
The only solution with Vanguard's system in order to solo crafting, would be to multibox and I ain't gonna do that. I despise multiboxing. Just say no to bots. [no theres no need to multi box at all.
The way i see it is that there is solo group and "raid" content for crafting and diplomacy also just like adventuring and just like adventuring it will be group orientated but solo is not out of the question at all.
As to why you would want to solo craft i have no clue, group crafting of this nature has not been done in any other game and it sounds like a real innovation to crafting and should make it a lot more fun to do. But if its not your box of chocolates then i assure you there will be solo content but it will probably only be around as exciting as crafting in other recent games]

-Dunadurium

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