I played EQ and DAoC for many years. Bought DAoC 3 days after it was released even.
I loved those games but I am glad the genre evolved some. I do not miss spawn camping hours and hours, waiting in line for rare mobs, exp. grinding for hours on end. Half the time spent socializing was due to there being nothing else better to do while you waited 8 hours for your turn at the rare.
Those type of games were great for the time, but it isnt that time now. Me and all my DAoC buddies couldnt put in the sheer amount of time and effort to play something like that today. Hell I need a more casual MMO to play just due to real life adult responsibilities. Gone are the days of having to spend 40 hours a week to barely keep up in an MMO.
I have many great memories from those games as I am sure many do. There are games like that still running if you want to play them. Simply put most people have neither the time nor desire to commit that much time & effort into a video game. Casual MMOs draw a bigger crowd, just the way it is.
I do miss the community of DAoC, the realm pride, defending the relics, knowing your enemies from other realms, being in a guild that actually felt like a family rather than the guys you raid with every M / W / F. For me that was the best time I have ever had in a game period. It was as much a time in my life as it was the game. Everyone I knew that played hardcore has gown up and have families, full time jobs, ect.
Only a small niche could or would actually put the time required by a game like EQ1 or DAoC on release. Why make a game for 100k when you could make one Millions play and enjoy? Not for love I can tell you that. At the end of the day game making is a business.
Then why do these millions leave after 1-3 months, if it is what they really want? Thats what we have today disposable, single player driven games. The only difference is more people can play them together, but still SP and tossed aside when done. I don't understand why they can't make games nowadays that are challenging. You can't be challenged or play something tough if you only have an hour or two a few nights a week? Why can't they mix some of these elements to give casuals something to do when they pop in for their 2 months of play and something for people that want an actual community in an actual world? It's almost as if they make the game knowing it will only last 3-6 months and then they can just limp along.
Originally posted by BearKnight What has happened is that the industry has changed too much from its original intent into something only about money now, and not so much about building living, breathing, socially driven worlds that actually matter beyond the first 3 months.
A little long winded mate, but I generally agree with you. Especially this part I'm highlighting.
I agree, and it is why I generally don't play many mmos anymore, I like a world that I want to play in and stay in...not use up, quit and game jump...So I don't bother with most of them, even if they are 'f2p'....Not worth my personal time, even if most of them didn't have a cash shop....Shallow is shallow with or without restrictions.
I doubt anyone will agree on this. I don't think the original intent was lost. We more or less have pretty homogenized genre after the success of WoW. There is more to do than older games but its more of the same because the genre pushes the same game play core.
The debate on if this is what players want or not is moot. There hasn't really been any AAA games that do anything more than what WoW brought with a few twist to prove it or not. While there are more players playing MMORPGs, per game there isn't much change in the 500-200k people playing the average popular game even though some of them are "free." Many games released have dropped off the cliff after the first few months.
I think that when a good game comes out that's based on one of the older models the whole WoW like games is all anyone wants will be thrown out. What I mean by old style is a game thats not like WoW. I think people always are like players want EQ or UO with new graphics. At this point any game not like WoW is old style since it's all that's been made for past 8 years. I think people just want other branches of the genre to get chance again since basically everything was deserted to make a quick WoW buck. It has defined the genre since then.
Originally posted by Cephus404 No, you're missing the point. It doesn't matter what the MMO genre was originally intended to be, it only matters what it is now. Intentions are like assholes, everyone has them and all of them stink. Who cares what some people playing UO or Meridian 59 wanted 15 years ago? It's entirely irrelevant to the modern day MMO which are driven by market forces and what the majority of people actually want to play now.
Pretty much this.
Original intent is irrelevant to me. I want my games fun, not needing to adhere to some ancient "intent".
This entire site is built around "I was here first so it's mine" proprietary pseudo-ownership.
Originally posted by Cephus404 No, you're missing the point. It doesn't matter what the MMO genre was originally intended to be, it only matters what it is now. Intentions are like assholes, everyone has them and all of them stink. Who cares what some people playing UO or Meridian 59 wanted 15 years ago? It's entirely irrelevant to the modern day MMO which are driven by market forces and what the majority of people actually want to play now.
I doubt anyone will agree on this. I don't think the original intent was lost. We're more or less have pretty homogenized genre after the success of WoW. There more to do than older games but its more of the same because the genre pushes the same game play core.
The debate on if this is what players want or not is moot. There hasn't really been any AAA games that do anything more than what WoW brought with a few twist to prove it or not. While there are more players playing MMORPGs, per game there isn't much change in the 500-200k people playing the average popular game even though some of them are "free." Many games released have dropped off the cliff after the first few months.
I think that when a good game comes out that's based on one of the older models the whole WoW like games is all anyone wants will be thrown out. What I mean by old style is a game thats not like WoW. I think people always are like players want EQ or UO with new graphics. At this point any game not like WoW is old style since it's all that's been made for past 8 years. I think people just want other branches of the genre to get chance again since basically everything was deserted to make a quick WoW buck. It has defined the genre since then.
Well said. The same thing happened to Hip-Hop when big money became involved. It's not like I don't like the "get money, drunk, women women women party songs. They have their place, but them by themselves makes a real week genre. Variety used to be what it was about. No it's ROI.
Originally posted by Cephus404 No, you're missing the point. It doesn't matter what the MMO genre was originally intended to be, it only matters what it is now. Intentions are like assholes, everyone has them and all of them stink. Who cares what some people playing UO or Meridian 59 wanted 15 years ago? It's entirely irrelevant to the modern day MMO which are driven by market forces and what the majority of people actually want to play now.
Pretty much this.
Original intent is irrelevant to me. I want my games fun, not needing to adhere to some ancient "intent".
This entire site is built around "I was here first so it's mine" proprietary pseudo-ownership.
Something to do for the old guys.
Sure they can try to claim ownership. Look what is happening in the market place. Most just don't care about "original intent".
Originally posted by Cephus404 No, you're missing the point. It doesn't matter what the MMO genre was originally intended to be, it only matters what it is now. Intentions are like assholes, everyone has them and all of them stink. Who cares what some people playing UO or Meridian 59 wanted 15 years ago? It's entirely irrelevant to the modern day MMO which are driven by market forces and what the majority of people actually want to play now.
Pretty much this.
Original intent is irrelevant to me. I want my games fun, not needing to adhere to some ancient "intent".
This entire site is built around "I was here first so it's mine" proprietary pseudo-ownership.
Something to do for the old guys.
Sure they can try to claim ownership. Look what is happening in the market place. Most just don't care about "original intent".
I think what's happened in the market place is that you have a bunch of stale games that underperformed and are forced to undercut their game play to sell it in cash shops to survive.
I doubt anyone will agree on this. I don't think the original intent was lost. We're more or less have pretty homogenized genre after the success of WoW. There more to do than older games but its more of the same because the genre pushes the same game play core.
The debate on if this is what players want or not is moot. There hasn't really been any AAA games that do anything more than what WoW brought with a few twist to prove it or not. While there are more players playing MMORPGs, per game there isn't much change in the 500-200k people playing the average popular game even though some of them are "free." Many games released have dropped off the cliff after the first few months.
I think that when a good game comes out that's based on one of the older models the whole WoW like games is all anyone wants will be thrown out. What I mean by old style is a game thats not like WoW. I think people always are like players want EQ or UO with new graphics. At this point any game not like WoW is old style since it's all that's been made for past 8 years. I think people just want other branches of the genre to get chance again since basically everything was deserted to make a quick WoW buck. It has defined the genre since then.
Well said. The same thing happened to Hip-Hop when big money became involved. It's not like I don't like the "get money, drunk, women women women party songs. They have their place, but them by themselves makes a real week genre. Variety used to be what it was about. No it's ROI.
This also kind of happened with muscle cars and RWD being phased out. There's been a resurgence there despite people claiming there was no market due to gas prices, etc. Even still there are people who want barebones cheap super sports cars that go unserved.
I doubt anyone will agree on this. I don't think the original intent was lost. We're more or less have pretty homogenized genre after the success of WoW. There more to do than older games but its more of the same because the genre pushes the same game play core.
The debate on if this is what players want or not is moot. There hasn't really been any AAA games that do anything more than what WoW brought with a few twist to prove it or not. While there are more players playing MMORPGs, per game there isn't much change in the 500-200k people playing the average popular game even though some of them are "free." Many games released have dropped off the cliff after the first few months.
I think that when a good game comes out that's based on one of the older models the whole WoW like games is all anyone wants will be thrown out. What I mean by old style is a game thats not like WoW. I think people always are like players want EQ or UO with new graphics. At this point any game not like WoW is old style since it's all that's been made for past 8 years. I think people just want other branches of the genre to get chance again since basically everything was deserted to make a quick WoW buck. It has defined the genre since then.
Well said. The same thing happened to Hip-Hop when big money became involved. It's not like I don't like the "get money, drunk, women women women party songs. They have their place, but them by themselves makes a real week genre. Variety used to be what it was about. No it's ROI.
This also kind of happened with muscle cars and RWD being phased out. There's been a resurgence there despite people claiming there was no market due to gas prices, etc. Even still there are people who want barebones cheap super sports cars that go unserved.
This is how all big budget entertainment works. A reality show makes it big on TV, and we get nonstop reality TV for the next decade. Music is written by a computer that follows a formula that's programmed to predict popular trends pulled from the indi scene.
Games are no different. They know they've used up the wow clone ( have known it for years ) They're not looking for the next unique game play experience....they're looking for the next game they can clone.
Large money invenstments look for trends to follow. They want data, and spreadsheets predicting returns etc. They're not looking to create something that blows peoples minds because they've never seen it before. That is too unpredictable and too much like gambling.
Originally posted by Sajman01 It's all about sheeps and wolves. The sheeps won't play a game that has wolves and wolves won't play a game without sheep. How does one build a game for both?
Many older MMOs had a good balance of ways to play. They had a huge scope and many different systems to please crafters, roleplayers, raiders, and PvPers.
Modern MMos are made for one type of player only, the kind that likes instanced quest grinding. It's a wonder why they're all failing.
(also, sometimes throwing them all together doesn't work, instances directly undermine many core aspects of MMO design)
Many older MMOs had a good balance of ways to play. They had a huge scope and many different systems to please crafters, roleplayers, raiders, and PvPers.
Modern MMos are made for one type of player only, the kind that likes instanced quest grinding. It's a wonder why they're all failing.
(also, sometimes throwing them all together doesn't work, instances directly undermine many core aspects of MMO design)
Modern MMOs are failing so much that it is generating more $$ and have more players playing than the 'good old days MMOs'.
Hang on a min... LOLWUT?
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Many older MMOs had a good balance of ways to play. They had a huge scope and many different systems to please crafters, roleplayers, raiders, and PvPers.
Modern MMos are made for one type of player only, the kind that likes instanced quest grinding. It's a wonder why they're all failing.
(also, sometimes throwing them all together doesn't work, instances directly undermine many core aspects of MMO design)
Modern MMOs are failing so much that it is generating more $$ and have more players playing than the 'good old days MMOs'.
Hang on a min... LOLWUT?
Yes, because having to fire half your dev team, merge servers 3 times within a year of launch, and scale back your content updates, is a sure sign of success? Modern MMOs would kill for the 250k growing subscribers of MMOs passed. There's a reason all the WoW clones are going FTP, no one thinks they're worth paying for.
Old MMOs grew over time, retaining players and attracting new ones, not peaking until years down the line.
Modern MMOs peak on launch day and go sharply downhill after. The companies have to scale back, sometimes in a huge way (Aion, Age of Conan, SWTOR) just to stay out of bankruptcy. For Age of Conan, two of their partner companies got dissolved because of the crippling financial loss and commercial failure that was AoC.
Yes, because having to fire half your dev team, merge servers 3 times within a year of launch, and scale back your content updates, is a sure sign of success? Modern MMOs would kill for the 250k growing subscribers of MMOs passed. There's a reason all the WoW clones are going FTP, no one thinks they're worth paying for.
Old MMOs grew over time, retaining players and attracting new ones, not peaking until years down the line.
Modern MMOs peak on launch day and go sharply downhill after. The companies have to scale back, sometimes in a huge way (Aion, Age of Conan, SWTOR) just to stay out of bankruptcy. For Age of Conan, two of their partner companies got dissolved because of the crippling financial loss and commercial failure that was AoC.
So... GW2 which made $200 Million so far would kill for 250k growing subscribers?
What about WoW with 7.5 Million subs?
What about LoTRO / DDO / RIFT?
SWTOR had 500k before it went F2P.
MMOs is a relatively recent genre, lets not rewrite history so soon.
And please do tell which 'old MMOs' had more than 250k? UO / EQ?
So 500k vs 7.5 Million
Like I said.. LOLWUT
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Yes, because having to fire half your dev team, merge servers 3 times within a year of launch, and scale back your content updates, is a sure sign of success? Modern MMOs would kill for the 250k growing subscribers of MMOs passed. There's a reason all the WoW clones are going FTP, no one thinks they're worth paying for.
Old MMOs grew over time, retaining players and attracting new ones, not peaking until years down the line.
Modern MMOs peak on launch day and go sharply downhill after. The companies have to scale back, sometimes in a huge way (Aion, Age of Conan, SWTOR) just to stay out of bankruptcy. For Age of Conan, two of their partner companies got dissolved because of the crippling financial loss and commercial failure that was AoC.
So... GW2 which made $200 Million so far would kill for 250k growing subscribers?
What about WoW with 7.5 Million subs?
What about LoTRO / DDO / RIFT?
SWTOR had 500k before it went F2P.
MMOs is a relatively recent genre, lets not rewrite history so soon.
And please do tell which 'old MMOs' had more than 250k? UO / EQ?
So 500k vs 7.5 Million
Like I said.. LOLWUT
You better get to your shelter...an ANTI SWTOR bomb is about to go off.
MMOs is a relatively recent genre, lets not rewrite history so soon.
And please do tell which 'old MMOs' had more than 250k? UO / EQ?
So 500k vs 7.5 Million
Like I said.. LOLWUT
WoW is a special case. No one would argue that it isn't by far the most successful MMO in history (and this coming from someone who really dislikes WoW...).
But for the others, you can't compare a F2P to a sub-based game as though the numbers mean the same thing. F2P needs a much bigger pool of players to get the same kind of money since most people wont pay a cent for F2P. Most games go F2P in desperation when their sub base starts shrinking (GW2 is also a bit of a special case but we'll see how many people buy the expansion. Lots of people got on board the hype train and were at least somewhat let down by the actual game. But if you want to call that one a financial success I'll give you that...)
You also need to look at costs of production which so many people seem to ignore. The early games were relatively cheap to create and produce content for. Newer MMOs, on the other hand, cost a fortune to make which means they have to pull in a lot more money just to break even. A game with SWTOR's budget has to be a runaway success in terms of revenue in order to start generating any profit at all. It is one of the most expensive games ever made.
MMOs is a relatively recent genre, lets not rewrite history so soon.
And please do tell which 'old MMOs' had more than 250k? UO / EQ?
So 500k vs 7.5 Million
Like I said.. LOLWUT
WoW is a special case. No one would argue that it isn't by far the most successful MMO in history (and this coming from someone who really dislikes WoW...).
But for the others, you can't compare a F2P to a sub-based game as though the numbers mean the same thing. F2P needs a much bigger pool of players to get the same kind of money since most people wont pay a cent for F2P. Most games go F2P in desperation when their sub base starts shrinking (GW2 is also a bit of a special case but we'll see how many people buy the expansion. Lots of people got on board the hype train and were at least somewhat let down by the actual game. But if you want to call that one a financial success I'll give you that...)
You also need to look at costs of production which so many people seem to ignore. The early games were relatively cheap to create and produce content for. Newer MMOs, on the other hand, cost a fortune to make which means they have to pull in a lot more money just to break even. A game with SWTOR's budget has to be a runaway success in terms of revenue in order to start generating any profit at all. It is one of the most expensive games ever made.
So we went from 'Old school MMOs made more money back in the day' to 'old school MMOs make less money but it cost less to make!'
Yeah... Hear that sound of the goal post moving?
Whatever number F2P are, the games still make more money and have more players playing.
Old school MMOs had a small number of players playing their game and make small $$$.
New school MMOs has a large number of players playing their game and make large $$$.
Facts are facts and lets not re-write history that's not even a decade old.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
those games of the past were suppose to be evolution of pen and paper rules in the actual virtual worlds and that is why IMO they were called mmoRPGs
now there is only a shallow action combat rainbow country of visuals MMOGs without any real depth of systems and mechanics and the substance which was the mostly non instanced world to explore in the lobby based abomination format...
the achievement of the old without any special effects UI panels and so on and so forth was to get to the end game through long journey and the end of that journey which was hard and rewarding was a start of another journey....
now we have only shallow gear checks raid fests and nearly instant travel to end game
"no air to breathe in the game" no dangers in semi narrated environment in which you still could've build something
no time to chat even because everything has to be instant after the years of vocal minority called that journey is boring...
long live the dream of that old pen and paper version depth in the virtual world game environment thing coming to fruition...
PS. for most people i could have been seen as casual now real life work wife kids....
but i would still rather devote my few hours of free time in a weak to play something for many seem as hardcore, deep, immersing, punishing for mistakes without any haste or race mentality.
without any need to even achieve of something in this one short session of play time
slowly with my own pace and that would be more gratifying for me then this new "era" MMOGs achievements all together...
Along with the OP this guy hits it best !
Games are shallow crap now.
Look at Wildstar....People are excited about all its features, I AM TOO !...........They all sound great to me and many others.
BUT, and I stress BUT its not to say with all the cool features that It will not be a short easy thirty day game and not much of an mmo, as with FF14.
So we went from 'Old school MMOs made more money back in the day' to 'old school MMOs make less money but it cost less to make!'
Yeah... Hear that sound of the goal post moving?
Whatever number F2P are, the games still make more money and have more players playing.
Old school MMOs had a small number of players playing their game and make small $$$.
New school MMOs has a large number of players playing their game and make large $$$.
Facts are facts and lets not re-write history that's not even a decade old.
The OP never mentioned money or success so look into the mirror when you talk about goal posts. It's a common argument on this forum that things evolve based on numbers and revenue but in the big wide world there are plenty examples of under and over appreciated demographics. Some examples have already been given. That wasn't really the point of this thread though.
Facts are facts and lets not re-write history that's not even a decade old.
Indeed, and only looking at a finite subset of information to reaffirm your stance is in general considered intellectual dishonesty, so please stop that.
There are plenty of reasons past MMOs were different when addressing production quality, technical capacity, player count, revenue, etc.
The culture was different, the scope was different, the hardware was different. Even the prevalence and quality of internet at the time was a factor that needs to be considered as it directly impacted people's buying habits as well as ability to even play in the first place.
There's a lot of looking for evidence to back up a conclusion right now, and not enough looking at the facts and forming of conclusions from them.
Whether or not one thinks old MMOs saw financial success according to modern standards is ancillary to the point the OP was making, as well as being an entirely illogical argument.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Amen to that. However, lack of features don't either. It does seem that reminiscence makes the better game with some of the self proclaimed "old school" gamers. Being an "old school" gamer myself I have no issue with how MMOs have been changing over the years. Granted my old school MMOs were games such as Neocron, E&B and SWG pre-everything so I don't have the rose tinted glasses of the EQ players. I do admit that no other game has come close to freedom and feeling of virtual world to me as SWG did. However the price to pay for that is that it was one hell of a buggy game. It seems a lot of other SWG vets forget that. Dont get me wrong, not all new MMOs are better than the older ones. But by no means are all the older ones better than all of the newer ones either.
Old school game mechanics are antiquated. But the concepts and principles they were based on are not. That's what is missing and that's at least what I'm saying (and maybe other old schoolers like myself) want to come back.
Yes, because having to fire half your dev team, merge servers 3 times within a year of launch, and scale back your content updates, is a sure sign of success? Modern MMOs would kill for the 250k growing subscribers of MMOs passed. There's a reason all the WoW clones are going FTP, no one thinks they're worth paying for.
Old MMOs grew over time, retaining players and attracting new ones, not peaking until years down the line.
Modern MMOs peak on launch day and go sharply downhill after. The companies have to scale back, sometimes in a huge way (Aion, Age of Conan, SWTOR) just to stay out of bankruptcy. For Age of Conan, two of their partner companies got dissolved because of the crippling financial loss and commercial failure that was AoC.
So... GW2 which made $200 Million so far would kill for 250k growing subscribers?
What about WoW with 7.5 Million subs?
What about LoTRO / DDO / RIFT?
SWTOR had 500k before it went F2P.
MMOs is a relatively recent genre, lets not rewrite history so soon.
And please do tell which 'old MMOs' had more than 250k? UO / EQ?
So 500k vs 7.5 Million
Like I said.. LOLWUT
Again it was on par with 500-200k of older genre games except it had a population leak the size of the hole that sank the Titanic. Most newer games don't even have EQs 2-3 year worth of peak 90 days after launch.
The genre not only suffers from questhubitis, its been overly steamlined where features and conveniences slowly remove gameplay, challenges, community, downtime, unique starting areas, open worlds, travel, etc. My belief why players request for streamed line gaming the progression mechanisms in the game become redundant and just road blocks to the end game and have no value to the players.
Comments
Then why do these millions leave after 1-3 months, if it is what they really want? Thats what we have today disposable, single player driven games. The only difference is more people can play them together, but still SP and tossed aside when done. I don't understand why they can't make games nowadays that are challenging. You can't be challenged or play something tough if you only have an hour or two a few nights a week? Why can't they mix some of these elements to give casuals something to do when they pop in for their 2 months of play and something for people that want an actual community in an actual world? It's almost as if they make the game knowing it will only last 3-6 months and then they can just limp along.
I agree, and it is why I generally don't play many mmos anymore, I like a world that I want to play in and stay in...not use up, quit and game jump...So I don't bother with most of them, even if they are 'f2p'....Not worth my personal time, even if most of them didn't have a cash shop....Shallow is shallow with or without restrictions.
By the time I'm the average age of the people who occupy this site I suspect there'll be at least 1 or 2 good MMOs on the market.
I doubt anyone will agree on this. I don't think the original intent was lost. We more or less have pretty homogenized genre after the success of WoW. There is more to do than older games but its more of the same because the genre pushes the same game play core.
The debate on if this is what players want or not is moot. There hasn't really been any AAA games that do anything more than what WoW brought with a few twist to prove it or not. While there are more players playing MMORPGs, per game there isn't much change in the 500-200k people playing the average popular game even though some of them are "free." Many games released have dropped off the cliff after the first few months.
I think that when a good game comes out that's based on one of the older models the whole WoW like games is all anyone wants will be thrown out. What I mean by old style is a game thats not like WoW. I think people always are like players want EQ or UO with new graphics. At this point any game not like WoW is old style since it's all that's been made for past 8 years. I think people just want other branches of the genre to get chance again since basically everything was deserted to make a quick WoW buck. It has defined the genre since then.
This entire site is built around "I was here first so it's mine" proprietary pseudo-ownership.
Something to do for the old guys.
right on queue.
They don't understand the point OP...
Well said. The same thing happened to Hip-Hop when big money became involved. It's not like I don't like the "get money, drunk, women women women party songs. They have their place, but them by themselves makes a real week genre. Variety used to be what it was about. No it's ROI.
Sure they can try to claim ownership. Look what is happening in the market place. Most just don't care about "original intent".
I think what's happened in the market place is that you have a bunch of stale games that underperformed and are forced to undercut their game play to sell it in cash shops to survive.
This also kind of happened with muscle cars and RWD being phased out. There's been a resurgence there despite people claiming there was no market due to gas prices, etc. Even still there are people who want barebones cheap super sports cars that go unserved.
This is how all big budget entertainment works. A reality show makes it big on TV, and we get nonstop reality TV for the next decade. Music is written by a computer that follows a formula that's programmed to predict popular trends pulled from the indi scene.
Games are no different. They know they've used up the wow clone ( have known it for years ) They're not looking for the next unique game play experience....they're looking for the next game they can clone.
Large money invenstments look for trends to follow. They want data, and spreadsheets predicting returns etc. They're not looking to create something that blows peoples minds because they've never seen it before. That is too unpredictable and too much like gambling.
DAOC was a good game for this. For its time.
Many older MMOs had a good balance of ways to play. They had a huge scope and many different systems to please crafters, roleplayers, raiders, and PvPers.
Modern MMos are made for one type of player only, the kind that likes instanced quest grinding. It's a wonder why they're all failing.
(also, sometimes throwing them all together doesn't work, instances directly undermine many core aspects of MMO design)
Modern MMOs are failing so much that it is generating more $$ and have more players playing than the 'good old days MMOs'.
Hang on a min... LOLWUT?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Yes, because having to fire half your dev team, merge servers 3 times within a year of launch, and scale back your content updates, is a sure sign of success? Modern MMOs would kill for the 250k growing subscribers of MMOs passed. There's a reason all the WoW clones are going FTP, no one thinks they're worth paying for.
Old MMOs grew over time, retaining players and attracting new ones, not peaking until years down the line.
Modern MMOs peak on launch day and go sharply downhill after. The companies have to scale back, sometimes in a huge way (Aion, Age of Conan, SWTOR) just to stay out of bankruptcy. For Age of Conan, two of their partner companies got dissolved because of the crippling financial loss and commercial failure that was AoC.
So... GW2 which made $200 Million so far would kill for 250k growing subscribers?
What about WoW with 7.5 Million subs?
What about LoTRO / DDO / RIFT?
SWTOR had 500k before it went F2P.
MMOs is a relatively recent genre, lets not rewrite history so soon.
And please do tell which 'old MMOs' had more than 250k? UO / EQ?
So 500k vs 7.5 Million
Like I said.. LOLWUT
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
You better get to your shelter...an ANTI SWTOR bomb is about to go off.
WoW is a special case. No one would argue that it isn't by far the most successful MMO in history (and this coming from someone who really dislikes WoW...).
But for the others, you can't compare a F2P to a sub-based game as though the numbers mean the same thing. F2P needs a much bigger pool of players to get the same kind of money since most people wont pay a cent for F2P. Most games go F2P in desperation when their sub base starts shrinking (GW2 is also a bit of a special case but we'll see how many people buy the expansion. Lots of people got on board the hype train and were at least somewhat let down by the actual game. But if you want to call that one a financial success I'll give you that...)
You also need to look at costs of production which so many people seem to ignore. The early games were relatively cheap to create and produce content for. Newer MMOs, on the other hand, cost a fortune to make which means they have to pull in a lot more money just to break even. A game with SWTOR's budget has to be a runaway success in terms of revenue in order to start generating any profit at all. It is one of the most expensive games ever made.
So we went from 'Old school MMOs made more money back in the day' to 'old school MMOs make less money but it cost less to make!'
Yeah... Hear that sound of the goal post moving?
Whatever number F2P are, the games still make more money and have more players playing.
Old school MMOs had a small number of players playing their game and make small $$$.
New school MMOs has a large number of players playing their game and make large $$$.
Facts are facts and lets not re-write history that's not even a decade old.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Along with the OP this guy hits it best !
Games are shallow crap now.
Look at Wildstar....People are excited about all its features, I AM TOO !...........They all sound great to me and many others.
BUT, and I stress BUT its not to say with all the cool features that It will not be a short easy thirty day game and not much of an mmo, as with FF14.
Features don't always = an good mmo
The OP never mentioned money or success so look into the mirror when you talk about goal posts. It's a common argument on this forum that things evolve based on numbers and revenue but in the big wide world there are plenty examples of under and over appreciated demographics. Some examples have already been given. That wasn't really the point of this thread though.
Indeed, and only looking at a finite subset of information to reaffirm your stance is in general considered intellectual dishonesty, so please stop that.
There are plenty of reasons past MMOs were different when addressing production quality, technical capacity, player count, revenue, etc.
The culture was different, the scope was different, the hardware was different. Even the prevalence and quality of internet at the time was a factor that needs to be considered as it directly impacted people's buying habits as well as ability to even play in the first place.
There's a lot of looking for evidence to back up a conclusion right now, and not enough looking at the facts and forming of conclusions from them.
Whether or not one thinks old MMOs saw financial success according to modern standards is ancillary to the point the OP was making, as well as being an entirely illogical argument.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Amen to that. However, lack of features don't either. It does seem that reminiscence makes the better game with some of the self proclaimed "old school" gamers. Being an "old school" gamer myself I have no issue with how MMOs have been changing over the years. Granted my old school MMOs were games such as Neocron, E&B and SWG pre-everything so I don't have the rose tinted glasses of the EQ players. I do admit that no other game has come close to freedom and feeling of virtual world to me as SWG did. However the price to pay for that is that it was one hell of a buggy game. It seems a lot of other SWG vets forget that. Dont get me wrong, not all new MMOs are better than the older ones. But by no means are all the older ones better than all of the newer ones either.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Yes, because having to fire half your dev team, merge servers 3 times within a year of launch, and scale back your content updates, is a sure sign of success? Modern MMOs would kill for the 250k growing subscribers of MMOs passed. There's a reason all the WoW clones are going FTP, no one thinks they're worth paying for.
Old MMOs grew over time, retaining players and attracting new ones, not peaking until years down the line.
Modern MMOs peak on launch day and go sharply downhill after. The companies have to scale back, sometimes in a huge way (Aion, Age of Conan, SWTOR) just to stay out of bankruptcy. For Age of Conan, two of their partner companies got dissolved because of the crippling financial loss and commercial failure that was AoC.
So... GW2 which made $200 Million so far would kill for 250k growing subscribers?
What about WoW with 7.5 Million subs?
What about LoTRO / DDO / RIFT?
SWTOR had 500k before it went F2P.
MMOs is a relatively recent genre, lets not rewrite history so soon.
And please do tell which 'old MMOs' had more than 250k? UO / EQ?
So 500k vs 7.5 Million
Like I said.. LOLWUT
Again it was on par with 500-200k of older genre games except it had a population leak the size of the hole that sank the Titanic. Most newer games don't even have EQs 2-3 year worth of peak 90 days after launch.The genre not only suffers from questhubitis, its been overly steamlined where features and conveniences slowly remove gameplay, challenges, community, downtime, unique starting areas, open worlds, travel, etc. My belief why players request for streamed line gaming the progression mechanisms in the game become redundant and just road blocks to the end game and have no value to the players.