In swg if you wanted your appearance changed you went to an Image Designer. It isn't forced, it was a friggin sweet game, despite it all. A lot of people don't play mmoRPGs to play with Pauly from Jersey.
I prefer saving the voice chat for the Hardcore stuff, PVP, Intense PVE ect..
Then I go back to playing a role where I prefer IN game socializing.
Most mmo's it's either solo or Pauly.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
It's just one big happy social orgy where everyone chats with everyone ?
I can't say I've ever seen the game described that way, although the player gatherings and parties kinda go that way. I wouldn't use the word orgy, though. Definitely not orgy.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa Originally posted by BoneserinoOriginally posted by TibernicuspaOriginally posted by BoneserinoOriginally posted by TibernicuspaOriginally posted by BoneserinoWhat is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together.
The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.My point is your story would be way less unusual than it is now back when MMOs incentivized playing with others. And, you would be more than likely to do it with a stranger, rather than a clan mate.Hence, modern MMOs are mostly anti social, due to game design.I just don't understand what is stopping you meeting and socializing with players in an MMO? Most players don't socialize, simple as that.
I can't group with people who don't want to group, and who level faster solo.
I can't talk to people who don't read local chat, because they don't need to.
A game with mechanics that encourage socializing will draw in social players, and make the general atmosphere easier to socialize in. A game that is mostly about soloing will attract players who have no interest in socializing. I can't socialize by myself.
As I said a thousand times in this thread, players will always take the path of least resistance and most reward. It guides how they play. If the path of most reward is grouping and socializing, people will do it, unless they HATE being around other players, in which case they'll play a different MMO.
Good grief. I can't get them to stop socializing with me.
You have elevated socializing to a level of importance it never had. "If you build it, they will come." Well, the games were built, and the players left as soon as WoW released. Something to do in video games will always trump sitting around waiting for something to do. That happened before MySpace, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat and Tumblr. Now? There's no chance that someone is going to pick up an MMORPG with the intent of socializing. Not many people anyway.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Good grief. I can't get them to stop socializing with me.
You have elevated socializing to a level of importance it never had. "If you build it, they will come." Well, the games were built, and the players left as soon as WoW released. Something to do in video games will always trump sitting around waiting for something to do. That happened before MySpace, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat and Tumblr. Now? There's no chance that someone is going to pick up an MMORPG with the intent of socializing. Not many people anyway.
It's not just that. Think about how many people have dual monitors, or who can easily multitask.
It's not just that there are other venues for socializing, you can do them WHILE playing your game. Think about how it is in real life. A bunch of people sit down at a place.... what do they do, do they forge a friendship based off of mutually waiting? No. They whip out their cell phones and start texting their REAL friends, or logging onto social media sites. Or playing Angry birds.
A new game created nowadays that had enforced random waiting (Hang on guys, need to wait for my mana to recharge) would be just as likely to have everybody flip over to browsing porn or whatever until the time is up.
Or even more likely, switch to a game where they can take breaks for porn at their own pace. Some people might enjoy that, but people have CHOICE now, and everybody who doesn't enjoy it... will just switch.
Even if waiting was REALLY GOOD for you, it's like having a choice of two restaurants, one that has incredibly healthy food that tastes like soggy cardboard, or one that has fairly unhealthy food that make you feel like your tastebuds have died and gone to heaven. People don't care about what's good for them, they care for what they want, or perceive they want. It's a pretty hefty obstacle to design a game that not only forces people to socialize, but to PREFER that, and to be thankful for being forced.
Giving people something to do in their downtime isn't so hard. It isn't enforced random waiting. How's those lock out timers and Queues? I guess if some bar is filling up it's considered doing something.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
He is talking specifically about the downtime at monster spawn points, which is a big issue in itself, not about downtime in general.
Has anybody read that article at all?
Flame on!
That's what I said. It's hard to tell from what you wrote and your wiseass closing if you're agreeing or disagreeing.
I dont see "downtime during combat" there, he was talking mob spawns, that could be anything from overcrowded areas to hunting of "special" mobs, which are more logistical problems that have to be fixed by devs.
Downtime during combat seems to me a much broader term, say a mage may choose to launch one spell and then finish the mob with his staff to be able to regen enough mana to go on forever, or he can launch 2 spells or a more costly one and then suffer 30s drinking every 5 minutes. (A very synthetic example, dont read too much into it )
Isn't downtime when you're not actively playing a part of the game and just chatting or something? If you want downtime, stop playing and start socializing. What, you want to have downtime in a dungeon or group pve? You need a captive audience? lol Stopit.
You hit the nail on the head I think here, Mr. Foo...
The problem with that (in modern day mmos where the gear chase concept was first most promoted in WoW) is that if you do that then you might as well log out and take a break as you will be falling behind the gear curve for no reason.
In gear-power centric games this is a problem, as falling behind means you get excluded from contents or getting ganked/abused.
I guess to be fair that in itself links to a different problem of gear-centric-ness of modern day mmos and also the lack of focus on player manufactured items (which also in itself redress this balance and encourages more player interactions, since the crafting process in itself is a downtime and players will use the chance to interact).
Not directly related to the topic I guess, but it is all interlinked if you think about it.
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
To be fair, you should have provided the entire quote, which was about spawn camp points, and nothing to do really with what people think of when they are talking about enforced downtime, especially in the terms of this thread.
"Spawn points in EverQuest are of course a much maligned source of downtime. But many people attested to the idea that that was where they chatted and talked. But the fact that the downtime was a barrier to further gameplay in their eyes (meaning, they were camping so they could get some piece of armor or a weapon that they saw as necessary to continued enjoyment of the game) led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Isn't downtime when you're not actively playing a part of the game and just chatting or something? If you want downtime, stop playing and start socializing. What, you want to have downtime in a dungeon or group pve? You need a captive audience? lol Stopit.
You hit the nail on the head I think here, Mr. Foo...
The problem with that (in modern day mmos where the gear chase concept was first most promoted in WoW) is that if you do that then you might as well log out and take a break as you will be falling behind the gear curve for no reason.
In gear-power centric games this is a problem, as falling behind means you get excluded from contents or getting ganked/abused.
I have wasted thousands of hours standing around town chatting while in a top of the server raid guild and never been " left behind". If you're trying to say you have to be go gogogo all the time in any of these games or you fall behind.... That simply isn't true.
Isn't downtime when you're not actively playing a part of the game and just chatting or something? If you want downtime, stop playing and start socializing. What, you want to have downtime in a dungeon or group pve? You need a captive audience? lol Stopit.
You hit the nail on the head I think here, Mr. Foo...
The problem with that (in modern day mmos where the gear chase concept was first most promoted in WoW) is that if you do that then you might as well log out and take a break as you will be falling behind the gear curve for no reason.
In gear-power centric games this is a problem, as falling behind means you get excluded from contents or getting ganked/abused.
I have wasted thousands of hours standing around town chatting while in a top of the server raid guild and never been " left behind". If you're trying to say you have to be go gogogo all the time in any of these games or you fall behind.... That simply isn't true.
If a player skill offered fast travel to the raid, it would be omg I have to stand around spamming chat looking for a ride or spend time traveling!! This isn't hardcore!!
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
That was an interesting read but I don't necessarily agree. I think your belief that downtime is essential for social interaction and grouping is an outdated one at best. I've seen much more social interaction from global chat channels than I ever got by sitting around waiting for health to regenerate. It's also much more convenient and faster to join groups through the automatic party method and global chat channels than trying to find people sitting around in the same area ever was.
Personally, I view it as a flawed mechanic and a prime example of how developers prefer to copy past successes instead of opting for innovative mechanics.
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
To be fair, you should have provided the entire quote, which was about spawn camp points, and nothing to do really with what people think of when they are talking about enforced downtime, especially in the terms of this thread.
"Spawn points in EverQuest are of course a much maligned source of downtime. But many people attested to the idea that that was where they chatted and talked. But the fact that the downtime was a barrier to further gameplay in their eyes (meaning, they were camping so they could get some piece of armor or a weapon that they saw as necessary to continued enjoyment of the game) led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
It is still server enforced downtime (ex: spawn times, regen, medding) instead of player chosen downtime (ex: safe zones, towns). The mechanic that is responsible for it is immaterial.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What is so hard about that? The game did not force us to get together.
The problem is that the only reason you helped this person was because you already knew them, and the game mechanics did not reward you for helping him.
There is nothing in place to encourage you to do the same for a random stranger.
This was obviously a stand out story, not something you would usually do, especially not for a random player.
In early MMOs, most of my group experiences were with total strangers.
My point is your story would be way less unusual than it is now back when MMOs incentivized playing with others. And, you would be more than likely to do it with a stranger, rather than a clan mate.
Hence, modern MMOs are mostly anti social, due to game design.
I just don't understand what is stopping you meeting and socializing with players in an MMO?
Most players don't socialize, simple as that.
Disagree with this but your other points are valid.
So if the problem is with the games, I assume you are trying to tell us then that there are no game out at present that encourage socializing. I would disagree with that also. It could be that all you want is the forced grouping thing. I disagree that this encourages socialization also. Most people just want to get through the instance as quick and as painlessly as possible and then never have anything to do with you again.
No the change in socialization is going to have to come from players I think. Go out of your way to socialize, even if the game does not make it easy. It usually only takes a few asshats in a game to start turning the entire community into one. Ignore them and seek out like minded players. Try and promote the community in the game, instead of complaining there isn't one.
Unfortunately you are sounding like a lot of the new generation. I have a problem. Fix it for me! Maybe try fixing it for yourself and see what happens.
I agree with everything Tibernicuspa said and would like to offer my POV toward socializing.
I'm one of "anti-social" player Tibernicuspa mentioned and only force grouping/long downtime MMO I've played is FFXI. Rest are WoW-generation solo friendly MMO.
There are people comes with natural talent to chat and make friends, and enjoy doing so. They can find a topic of interest fairly easily and quickly, and able to "get into" a topic with no issue, and enjoying the process. This kind of player would social in any MMO because it's something they can do/like to do anyways.
There are people like myself find socializing with other players requires effort and often feel like work, not a hobby. I don't particular enjoy chatting and making friends. There are only a few topic I'm truly interested in, and find 95% of topic fairly boring every time I chat with other people, in game and irl. That means if the game don't force me to go out and make friends, then I won't do it. I don't see it as a "problem" myself unless the situation force me to make friends. Last time when I really go out irl and make friends is when I want a job, and I pretty much only social irl for job too. If I have all the best jobs handed to me with no effort, I'd probably never socialize irl too.
In games, if I don't need friends to progress through the content, I will never bother to look for topic of interest, hoping it's a topic that would interest me(and the chance is rare). I don't see it as a "problem" that I need to fix since I can play just fine without friends. I only see it as a problem when lack of friends are stopping me from progressing through the content, then I'd go fix it by working my ass off to find topic of interest and make friends.
This applies to down time in an MMO. If the game force me to do nothing due to downtime, I may as well start chatting because it's boring as hell to sit there and stare at the screen. Chatting about a topic I'm not interested in > sitting there staring at the screen. But if the game give me an option to kill stuff with no downtime, I'll go kill stuff without doubt.
And in the process of making friends in game/irl, sometimes I found true friends that's more than just acquaintances. You know, 5%~10% of rare gems that'd share the same topic of interest.
Sure, you can go back to town and socialize in solo friendly MMO if you really, really want to. But if the game give me an option to choose between go to instance and sit in town and chat, I'd pick go to instance without 2nd thought. In the end I won't chat in town, why sit in town and chat when I can go out and make more progress?
Sometimes I help random new players too if I'm in right mood, but there's a difference between making friends and help random strangers. In fact there's a difference between friends and party members shares common goal too.
In the end, I make long lasting friends when the game force me to. None of the friends I've made in solo friendly MMO stays after I quit the game. They are just, gone after I quit. But the friends I've made in FFXI stays even today. If that game is something else like SWTOR, WoW, pretty sure they'd be gone today too.
I'm not here to argue about downtime being good or bad for game design, but downtime and force grouping did force me to make friends, something I probably won't bother to do if it doesn't exist. It's not entirely right to blame the player not socialize, I can go out and make friends in any MMO, but I just don't want to unless the game force me to or reward me for doing so.
That was an interesting read but I don't necessarily agree. I think your belief that downtime is essential for social interaction and grouping is an outdated one at best. I've seen much more social interaction from global chat channels than I ever got by sitting around waiting for health to regenerate. It's also much more convenient and faster to join groups through the automatic party method and global chat channels than trying to find people sitting around in the same area ever was.
Personally, I view it as a flawed mechanic and a prime example of how developers prefer to copy past successes instead of opting for innovative mechanics.
Global chat channels are very different from guild/party/whisper chat channels. You don't talk about personal stuff and most people(including myself) are often too shy to speak. I rarely interact in global chat channel ever and it's last tool I'd use if I want to have social interaction.
I agree OP, downtime definitely has potential to create great social interaction. What I think has to happen next is to use voice chat primarily as a game mechanic so that players are discouraged from using skype or programs like it to socialize outside of the game. I've always wanted to see a game with a voice chat that mimics speech so that you are heard in a certain radius from your character, diminishing as the sound travels further out
Originally posted by TheRealBanango I agree OP, downtime definitely has potential to create great social interaction. What I think has to happen next is to use voice chat primarily as a game mechanic so that players are discouraged from using skype or programs like it to socialize outside of the game. I've always wanted to see a game with a voice chat that mimics speech so that you are heard in a certain radius from your character, diminishing as the sound travels further out
In Mount & Blade Warband there are premade statements you can use. Maybe a system that you can create your own? Get people used to the idea of your character talking in game and make a game out of it at the same time.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime
"...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?
To be fair, you should have provided the entire quote, which was about spawn camp points, and nothing to do really with what people think of when they are talking about enforced downtime, especially in the terms of this thread.
"Spawn points in EverQuest are of course a much maligned source of downtime. But many people attested to the idea that that was where they chatted and talked. But the fact that the downtime was a barrier to further gameplay in their eyes (meaning, they were camping so they could get some piece of armor or a weapon that they saw as necessary to continued enjoyment of the game) led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
It is still server enforced downtime (ex: spawn times, regen, medding) instead of player chosen downtime (ex: safe zones, towns). The mechanic that is responsible for it is immaterial.
No, I just went back and re-read the article, and it really doesn't address the idea for enforced downtime in any detail outside of this one passage.
It really is a rather interesting look at the thoughts they had to encourage socialization, how important it was to make sure it happened, how they realized their design to improve convenience actually worked against socialization and how they took direct action to force players to get back together in order to try to resolve. (there's even mention of how Catina's had shortfalls to that extent.
The article also doesn't really draw conclusions, in it he's asking for feedback from others on what they would do.
IMO, modern MMO designers either did not have the above discussions, or if if they did, opted to provide convenience over everything else, socialization be dammed. Sure, they took out all of the downtime, but they didn't really go through the excercise to create the social hubs that Raph describes.
And it's pretty apparent to most that socialization suffers for it.
For all those in this thread who say they have no problem socializing in modern MMO's, and feel they are full of opportunity, Raph explains it.
"Socializers are excluded by this definition; they are not waiting for something, so for them it isn't downtime. It's free time, which is a different beast. They have intentionally stepped off the treadmill and have all the time in the world. That's a radically different mindset." so of course they don't relate to the problem.
Additionally, you'll see many posters wax on about how they have great guilds to socialize with, even moving from game to game, and as you'll see here, Raph feels that misses the point of MMORPGs as well.
"Do you think you will play mostly with friends you make before the game, or friends you make in the game, or with strangers?
Empirically, we know that friends made in the game are retention devices. Frankly, we want you to play with people you meet IN the game. That's because otherwise, all we have is a bunch of cliques. Hermetic organizations made up of people who mostly knew each other in advance somehow (maybe they organized their towns on a web board, like so many of the SWG players are doing now). And no easy way for a novice to the environment to make new friends. The fact that the decisions we had made meant that people would not tend to bump into strangers reveals a flaw in our thinking about managing community and downtime."
I think the case could easily be made that modern MMO's have not made it a priority to provide mechanics that encourage socialization between strangers, and evidence from various posters tends to support this quite well.
Sure, this is one man's opinion, and many may not agree with it, but I find myself in alignment more often than not with his design philosophies and understand more why his games were designed the way they were.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Slower gaming with more downtimes did increase chat as people were bored and needed to fill the time.
The problem is that if any company made that game as a big budget MMO, it would fail miserably. As much as some people liked the fondness of waiting for a boat for 15 minutes just to take a 15 minute ride to get to another town (with the possibility of not loading one of the ocean areas fast enough through dial up and falling off the boat) most people want a fast paced experience. Companies have to design around what players want, or their competition gets all the money.
Movies and TV have moved away from slow openings. There used to be a lot that had slow character builds that led to something later. Audiences don't have the patience for that anymore so movies/TV need to open very quickly with an intense scene to get people hooked.
MMOs have evolved to where combat is smooth and constant, there is generally always something to do, travel is quick, and regen is fast, even to where anyone who helps on a mob gets auto credit so there is no need for camping/fighting over mobs. All of this does hurt the "I might as well chat because I have nothing else to do" which makes people converse less with strangers, but at the same time it provides a much more entertaining experience for most.
You won't see games go back to have lots of downtime anytime soon (unless it is there to make you spend money in a store to get rid of it).
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by LoktofeitOriginally posted by TibernicuspaBut don't take this from me, take it from the guy who built some of the best fucking MMOs ever made.SOCIALIZING REQUIRES DOWN TIME
You just linked to an article that says the ideal area for 'downtime' in safe areas and away from combat, citing that downtime during combat or 'forced' downtime "...led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space." If you agree with Raph, then you are agreeing with what others are saying here. Did you not read the article or did you not understand the article?To be fair, you should have provided the entire quote, which was about spawn camp points, and nothing to do really with what people think of when they are talking about enforced downtime, especially in the terms of this thread.
"Spawn points in EverQuest are of course a much maligned source of downtime. But many people attested to the idea that that was where they chatted and talked. But the fact that the downtime was a barrier to further gameplay in their eyes (meaning, they were camping so they could get some piece of armor or a weapon that they saw as necessary to continued enjoyment of the game) led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
This quote doesn't disqualify any argument against enforced down time. Players resent enforced down time when it appears to be a barrier to further game play. Whether something is a barrier to further game play is obviously subjective. Players who see chatting as part of game play will not see down time between encounters as enforced down time. Players who are more interested in the encounters rather than chatting will see that down time as a barrier to game play.
Given that developers as a whole have more access to information than anyone here*, and the enforced down time has been whittled down to nearly nothing, I would say that there are many more people who are interested more in the encounters than some sort of socialization between encounters. It could be those people hate other players, don't want to socialize at all, or just that they'd rather socialize in a "social" space like towns.
* Sometimes developers post here. Raph Koster has posted here. :-) Developers and people in the industry probably know a lot more than we do, even if they are posting here.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I saw this yesterday, and thought to myself, "I agree." Today after I had did team practice in Wushu, and browsed the market, I found downtime.
I decided to climb to a spot I know. A house sitting way up on the side of a mountain over looking the city. When I got up there, to my surprise I saw someone playing music. I sat down and began to practice my calligraphy. There we practicing the arts on top of a roof of a mountainside house, over looking the city. I had no where to go, so as he played, I wrote.
Downtime allowed this to happen. My story my not sound like much, but it made the 13 yr old pen & paper rpg'r in me's day.
I saw this yesterday, and thought to myself, "I agree." Today after I had did team practice in Wushu, and browsed the market, I found downtime.
I decided to climb to a spot I know. A house sitting way up on the side of a mountain over looking the city. When I got up there, to my surprise I saw someone playing music. I sat down and began to practice my calligraphy. There we practicing the arts on top of a roof of a mountainside house, over looking the city. I had no where to go, so as he played, I wrote.
Downtime allowed this to happen. My story my not sound like much, but it made the 13 yr old pen & paper rpg'r in me's day.
That's not really the type of downtime talked about here. You made a choice to take it slow and not partipate in any action intense activities. The type of downtime discussed here is 'forced downtime' where the player is forced to do nothing in the middle of an activity. It is more similar to you climbing that mountain and the halfway there, the game would not let you climb more and insisted that you do nothing for the next 15 minutes.
I saw this yesterday, and thought to myself, "I agree." Today after I had did team practice in Wushu, and browsed the market, I found downtime.
I decided to climb to a spot I know. A house sitting way up on the side of a mountain over looking the city. When I got up there, to my surprise I saw someone playing music. I sat down and began to practice my calligraphy. There we practicing the arts on top of a roof of a mountainside house, over looking the city. I had no where to go, so as he played, I wrote.
Downtime allowed this to happen. My story my not sound like much, but it made the 13 yr old pen & paper rpg'r in me's day.
That's not really the type of downtime talked about here. You made a choice to take it slow and not partipate in any action intense activities. The type of downtime discussed here is 'forced downtime' where the player is forced to do nothing in the middle of an activity. It is more similar to you climbing that mountain and the halfway there, the game would not let you climb more and insisted that you do nothing for the next 15 minutes.
^ /nod
That's the type of down time people have been suggesting already exists in mmos. It's the time and place for it. Not when you feel like action/adventure and getting forced to stop and "chat" instead.
That was an interesting read but I don't necessarily agree. I think your belief that downtime is essential for social interaction and grouping is an outdated one at best. I've seen much more social interaction from global chat channels than I ever got by sitting around waiting for health to regenerate. It's also much more convenient and faster to join groups through the automatic party method and global chat channels than trying to find people sitting around in the same area ever was.
Personally, I view it as a flawed mechanic and a prime example of how developers prefer to copy past successes instead of opting for innovative mechanics.
It's always been outdated and it's one that just doesn't work. When I was presented with forced downtime, I'd get up from my computer and go do something else until I could continue with the game. I would never just sit there and stare at the screen unless the downtime was so short (under a minute) that I couldn't get anything else done and even then, it wouldn't start any random social interaction, just to have something to do.
Being forced to do nothing in a game doesn't make one social, any more than not having downtime makes one antisocial. I used to have long, involved chats with guildmates while in the middle of a fight all the time. You learn to multitask. Someone who wants to be social is going to be social regardless. Someone who doesn't want to be social is not going to be social regardless. These people need to get that through their heads.
Comments
Social isn't chatting. It's interaction.
In swg if you wanted your appearance changed you went to an Image Designer. It isn't forced, it was a friggin sweet game, despite it all. A lot of people don't play mmoRPGs to play with Pauly from Jersey.
I prefer saving the voice chat for the Hardcore stuff, PVP, Intense PVE ect..
Then I go back to playing a role where I prefer IN game socializing.
Most mmo's it's either solo or Pauly.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I can't say I've ever seen the game described that way, although the player gatherings and parties kinda go that way. I wouldn't use the word orgy, though. Definitely not orgy.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
My point is your story would be way less unusual than it is now back when MMOs incentivized playing with others. And, you would be more than likely to do it with a stranger, rather than a clan mate. Hence, modern MMOs are mostly anti social, due to game design.
I just don't understand what is stopping you meeting and socializing with players in an MMO?
Most players don't socialize, simple as that.
I can't group with people who don't want to group, and who level faster solo.
I can't talk to people who don't read local chat, because they don't need to.
A game with mechanics that encourage socializing will draw in social players, and make the general atmosphere easier to socialize in. A game that is mostly about soloing will attract players who have no interest in socializing. I can't socialize by myself.
As I said a thousand times in this thread, players will always take the path of least resistance and most reward. It guides how they play. If the path of most reward is grouping and socializing, people will do it, unless they HATE being around other players, in which case they'll play a different MMO.
Good grief. I can't get them to stop socializing with me.
You have elevated socializing to a level of importance it never had. "If you build it, they will come." Well, the games were built, and the players left as soon as WoW released. Something to do in video games will always trump sitting around waiting for something to do. That happened before MySpace, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat and Tumblr. Now? There's no chance that someone is going to pick up an MMORPG with the intent of socializing. Not many people anyway.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
It's not just that. Think about how many people have dual monitors, or who can easily multitask.
It's not just that there are other venues for socializing, you can do them WHILE playing your game. Think about how it is in real life. A bunch of people sit down at a place.... what do they do, do they forge a friendship based off of mutually waiting? No. They whip out their cell phones and start texting their REAL friends, or logging onto social media sites. Or playing Angry birds.
A new game created nowadays that had enforced random waiting (Hang on guys, need to wait for my mana to recharge) would be just as likely to have everybody flip over to browsing porn or whatever until the time is up.
Or even more likely, switch to a game where they can take breaks for porn at their own pace. Some people might enjoy that, but people have CHOICE now, and everybody who doesn't enjoy it... will just switch.
Even if waiting was REALLY GOOD for you, it's like having a choice of two restaurants, one that has incredibly healthy food that tastes like soggy cardboard, or one that has fairly unhealthy food that make you feel like your tastebuds have died and gone to heaven. People don't care about what's good for them, they care for what they want, or perceive they want. It's a pretty hefty obstacle to design a game that not only forces people to socialize, but to PREFER that, and to be thankful for being forced.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I dont see "downtime during combat" there, he was talking mob spawns, that could be anything from overcrowded areas to hunting of "special" mobs, which are more logistical problems that have to be fixed by devs.
Downtime during combat seems to me a much broader term, say a mage may choose to launch one spell and then finish the mob with his staff to be able to regen enough mana to go on forever, or he can launch 2 spells or a more costly one and then suffer 30s drinking every 5 minutes. (A very synthetic example, dont read too much into it
)
Flame on!
The problem with that (in modern day mmos where the gear chase concept was first most promoted in WoW) is that if you do that then you might as well log out and take a break as you will be falling behind the gear curve for no reason.
In gear-power centric games this is a problem, as falling behind means you get excluded from contents or getting ganked/abused.
I guess to be fair that in itself links to a different problem of gear-centric-ness of modern day mmos and also the lack of focus on player manufactured items (which also in itself redress this balance and encourages more player interactions, since the crafting process in itself is a downtime and players will use the chance to interact).
Not directly related to the topic I guess, but it is all interlinked if you think about it.
To be fair, you should have provided the entire quote, which was about spawn camp points, and nothing to do really with what people think of when they are talking about enforced downtime, especially in the terms of this thread.
"Spawn points in EverQuest are of course a much maligned source of downtime. But many people attested to the idea that that was where they chatted and talked. But the fact that the downtime was a barrier to further gameplay in their eyes (meaning, they were camping so they could get some piece of armor or a weapon that they saw as necessary to continued enjoyment of the game) led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have wasted thousands of hours standing around town chatting while in a top of the server raid guild and never been " left behind". If you're trying to say you have to be go gogogo all the time in any of these games or you fall behind.... That simply isn't true.
If a player skill offered fast travel to the raid, it would be omg I have to stand around spamming chat looking for a ride or spend time traveling!! This isn't hardcore!!
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
That was an interesting read but I don't necessarily agree. I think your belief that downtime is essential for social interaction and grouping is an outdated one at best. I've seen much more social interaction from global chat channels than I ever got by sitting around waiting for health to regenerate. It's also much more convenient and faster to join groups through the automatic party method and global chat channels than trying to find people sitting around in the same area ever was.
Personally, I view it as a flawed mechanic and a prime example of how developers prefer to copy past successes instead of opting for innovative mechanics.
It is still server enforced downtime (ex: spawn times, regen, medding) instead of player chosen downtime (ex: safe zones, towns). The mechanic that is responsible for it is immaterial.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree with everything Tibernicuspa said and would like to offer my POV toward socializing.
I'm one of "anti-social" player Tibernicuspa mentioned and only force grouping/long downtime MMO I've played is FFXI. Rest are WoW-generation solo friendly MMO.
There are people comes with natural talent to chat and make friends, and enjoy doing so. They can find a topic of interest fairly easily and quickly, and able to "get into" a topic with no issue, and enjoying the process. This kind of player would social in any MMO because it's something they can do/like to do anyways.
There are people like myself find socializing with other players requires effort and often feel like work, not a hobby. I don't particular enjoy chatting and making friends. There are only a few topic I'm truly interested in, and find 95% of topic fairly boring every time I chat with other people, in game and irl. That means if the game don't force me to go out and make friends, then I won't do it. I don't see it as a "problem" myself unless the situation force me to make friends. Last time when I really go out irl and make friends is when I want a job, and I pretty much only social irl for job too. If I have all the best jobs handed to me with no effort, I'd probably never socialize irl too.
In games, if I don't need friends to progress through the content, I will never bother to look for topic of interest, hoping it's a topic that would interest me(and the chance is rare). I don't see it as a "problem" that I need to fix since I can play just fine without friends. I only see it as a problem when lack of friends are stopping me from progressing through the content, then I'd go fix it by working my ass off to find topic of interest and make friends.
This applies to down time in an MMO. If the game force me to do nothing due to downtime, I may as well start chatting because it's boring as hell to sit there and stare at the screen. Chatting about a topic I'm not interested in > sitting there staring at the screen. But if the game give me an option to kill stuff with no downtime, I'll go kill stuff without doubt.
And in the process of making friends in game/irl, sometimes I found true friends that's more than just acquaintances. You know, 5%~10% of rare gems that'd share the same topic of interest.
Sure, you can go back to town and socialize in solo friendly MMO if you really, really want to. But if the game give me an option to choose between go to instance and sit in town and chat, I'd pick go to instance without 2nd thought. In the end I won't chat in town, why sit in town and chat when I can go out and make more progress?
Sometimes I help random new players too if I'm in right mood, but there's a difference between making friends and help random strangers. In fact there's a difference between friends and party members shares common goal too.
In the end, I make long lasting friends when the game force me to. None of the friends I've made in solo friendly MMO stays after I quit the game. They are just, gone after I quit. But the friends I've made in FFXI stays even today. If that game is something else like SWTOR, WoW, pretty sure they'd be gone today too.
I'm not here to argue about downtime being good or bad for game design, but downtime and force grouping did force me to make friends, something I probably won't bother to do if it doesn't exist. It's not entirely right to blame the player not socialize, I can go out and make friends in any MMO, but I just don't want to unless the game force me to or reward me for doing so.
Global chat channels are very different from guild/party/whisper chat channels. You don't talk about personal stuff and most people(including myself) are often too shy to speak. I rarely interact in global chat channel ever and it's last tool I'd use if I want to have social interaction.
In Mount & Blade Warband there are premade statements you can use. Maybe a system that you can create your own? Get people used to the idea of your character talking in game and make a game out of it at the same time.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
No, I just went back and re-read the article, and it really doesn't address the idea for enforced downtime in any detail outside of this one passage.
It really is a rather interesting look at the thoughts they had to encourage socialization, how important it was to make sure it happened, how they realized their design to improve convenience actually worked against socialization and how they took direct action to force players to get back together in order to try to resolve. (there's even mention of how Catina's had shortfalls to that extent.
The article also doesn't really draw conclusions, in it he's asking for feedback from others on what they would do.
IMO, modern MMO designers either did not have the above discussions, or if if they did, opted to provide convenience over everything else, socialization be dammed. Sure, they took out all of the downtime, but they didn't really go through the excercise to create the social hubs that Raph describes.
And it's pretty apparent to most that socialization suffers for it.
For all those in this thread who say they have no problem socializing in modern MMO's, and feel they are full of opportunity, Raph explains it.
"Socializers are excluded by this definition; they are not waiting for something, so for them it isn't downtime. It's free time, which is a different beast. They have intentionally stepped off the treadmill and have all the time in the world. That's a radically different mindset." so of course they don't relate to the problem.
Additionally, you'll see many posters wax on about how they have great guilds to socialize with, even moving from game to game, and as you'll see here, Raph feels that misses the point of MMORPGs as well.
"Do you think you will play mostly with friends you make before the game, or friends you make in the game, or with strangers?
Empirically, we know that friends made in the game are retention devices. Frankly, we want you to play with people you meet IN the game. That's because otherwise, all we have is a bunch of cliques. Hermetic organizations made up of people who mostly knew each other in advance somehow (maybe they organized their towns on a web board, like so many of the SWG players are doing now). And no easy way for a novice to the environment to make new friends. The fact that the decisions we had made meant that people would not tend to bump into strangers reveals a flaw in our thinking about managing community and downtime."
I think the case could easily be made that modern MMO's have not made it a priority to provide mechanics that encourage socialization between strangers, and evidence from various posters tends to support this quite well.
Sure, this is one man's opinion, and many may not agree with it, but I find myself in alignment more often than not with his design philosophies and understand more why his games were designed the way they were.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Slower gaming with more downtimes did increase chat as people were bored and needed to fill the time.
The problem is that if any company made that game as a big budget MMO, it would fail miserably. As much as some people liked the fondness of waiting for a boat for 15 minutes just to take a 15 minute ride to get to another town (with the possibility of not loading one of the ocean areas fast enough through dial up and falling off the boat) most people want a fast paced experience. Companies have to design around what players want, or their competition gets all the money.
Movies and TV have moved away from slow openings. There used to be a lot that had slow character builds that led to something later. Audiences don't have the patience for that anymore so movies/TV need to open very quickly with an intense scene to get people hooked.
MMOs have evolved to where combat is smooth and constant, there is generally always something to do, travel is quick, and regen is fast, even to where anyone who helps on a mob gets auto credit so there is no need for camping/fighting over mobs. All of this does hurt the "I might as well chat because I have nothing else to do" which makes people converse less with strangers, but at the same time it provides a much more entertaining experience for most.
You won't see games go back to have lots of downtime anytime soon (unless it is there to make you spend money in a store to get rid of it).
To be fair, you should have provided the entire quote, which was about spawn camp points, and nothing to do really with what people think of when they are talking about enforced downtime, especially in the terms of this thread.
"Spawn points in EverQuest are of course a much maligned source of downtime. But many people attested to the idea that that was where they chatted and talked. But the fact that the downtime was a barrier to further gameplay in their eyes (meaning, they were camping so they could get some piece of armor or a weapon that they saw as necessary to continued enjoyment of the game) led to resentment of the enforced downtime and appears to have harmed its value as a social space."
This quote doesn't disqualify any argument against enforced down time. Players resent enforced down time when it appears to be a barrier to further game play. Whether something is a barrier to further game play is obviously subjective. Players who see chatting as part of game play will not see down time between encounters as enforced down time. Players who are more interested in the encounters rather than chatting will see that down time as a barrier to game play.
Given that developers as a whole have more access to information than anyone here*, and the enforced down time has been whittled down to nearly nothing, I would say that there are many more people who are interested more in the encounters than some sort of socialization between encounters. It could be those people hate other players, don't want to socialize at all, or just that they'd rather socialize in a "social" space like towns.
* Sometimes developers post here. Raph Koster has posted here. :-) Developers and people in the industry probably know a lot more than we do, even if they are posting here.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I saw this yesterday, and thought to myself, "I agree." Today after I had did team practice in Wushu, and browsed the market, I found downtime.
I decided to climb to a spot I know. A house sitting way up on the side of a mountain over looking the city. When I got up there, to my surprise I saw someone playing music. I sat down and began to practice my calligraphy. There we practicing the arts on top of a roof of a mountainside house, over looking the city. I had no where to go, so as he played, I wrote.
Downtime allowed this to happen. My story my not sound like much, but it made the 13 yr old pen & paper rpg'r in me's day.
That's not really the type of downtime talked about here. You made a choice to take it slow and not partipate in any action intense activities. The type of downtime discussed here is 'forced downtime' where the player is forced to do nothing in the middle of an activity. It is more similar to you climbing that mountain and the halfway there, the game would not let you climb more and insisted that you do nothing for the next 15 minutes.
^ /nod
That's the type of down time people have been suggesting already exists in mmos. It's the time and place for it. Not when you feel like action/adventure and getting forced to stop and "chat" instead.
It's always been outdated and it's one that just doesn't work. When I was presented with forced downtime, I'd get up from my computer and go do something else until I could continue with the game. I would never just sit there and stare at the screen unless the downtime was so short (under a minute) that I couldn't get anything else done and even then, it wouldn't start any random social interaction, just to have something to do.
Being forced to do nothing in a game doesn't make one social, any more than not having downtime makes one antisocial. I used to have long, involved chats with guildmates while in the middle of a fight all the time. You learn to multitask. Someone who wants to be social is going to be social regardless. Someone who doesn't want to be social is not going to be social regardless. These people need to get that through their heads.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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