There have been so many flop games(I count retention rates,player base, bugs,polish, content, features) from both themepark and sandbox. The sandbox tittles are all Indie shittastic games that are underfunded, lack clear goals, and lazy developers. The themeparks are just rehashed garbage chasing after hte WoW dollar.
The SANDBOX games are the ones that have lazy devs? The ones trying new ideas and innovating are LAZY? The only flaw of sandbox MMOs is being underfunded.
There have been so many flop games(I count retention rates,player base, bugs,polish, content, features) from both themepark and sandbox. The sandbox tittles are all Indie shittastic games that are underfunded, lack clear goals, and lazy developers. The themeparks are just rehashed garbage chasing after hte WoW dollar.
The SANDBOX games are the ones that have lazy devs? The ones trying new ideas and innovating are LAZY? The only flaw of sandbox MMOs is being underfunded.
Blankly put, yes. No AAA company has made a sandbox game in over 10 years and those that are sandbox these days are made by indie developers whom have neither the resource nor the man power to create a functional game. Don't think just because new ideas are being introduced means they aren't lazy. Mortal online, Xyson, Darkfall online, ect ect have lazy developers. Darkfall online being the prime example; generally taking 1+year to release a patch.
"neither the resource nor the man power to create a functional game"
when the hell did a lack of resources become lazy?! that's just so unspeakably illogical and unpragmatic as to smack of ideology more than insight.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
"neither the resource nor the man power to create a functional game"
when the hell did a lack of resources become lazy?! that's just so unspeakably illogical and unpragmatic as to smack of ideology more than insight.
Seems you skipped over the listed games I mentioned and never played them. Darkfall online had a pretty big development team as did Mortal online. From the sandbox Indie games I've played i've come to the conclusion that most Indie developers are lazier in my opinion because they don't have suits breathing down their backs. I would have thought that would allow for better games and it does in the sense of not following the WoW formula, but allows the developers leeway for slacking off. Its not limited to Indie devs though; there are also other themepark development teams that in my opinion are lazy too;,such as Planetside 2.
So no its not illogical, spock. I am speaking through experience.
Ps:I said lack of resources manpower and in some cases laziness.
There have been so many flop games(I count retention rates,player base, bugs,polish, content, features) from both themepark and sandbox. The sandbox tittles are all Indie shittastic games that are underfunded, lack clear goals, and lazy developers. The themeparks are just rehashed garbage chasing after hte WoW dollar.
The SANDBOX games are the ones that have lazy devs? The ones trying new ideas and innovating are LAZY? The only flaw of sandbox MMOs is being underfunded.
Blankly put, yes. No AAA company has made a sandbox game in over 10 years and those that are sandbox these days are made by indie developers whom have neither the resource nor the man power to create a functional game. Don't think just because new ideas are being introduced means they aren't lazy. Mortal online, Xyson, Darkfall online, ect ect have lazy developers. Darkfall online being the prime example; generally taking 1+year to release a patch.
Darkfall patches once a month... And taking time between patches is not a sign of being lazy, it's a sign of being an indie dev team with about 30 devs instead of the usually 300. Did you even think this post through?
There have been so many flop games(I count retention rates,player base, bugs,polish, content, features) from both themepark and sandbox. The sandbox tittles are all Indie shittastic games that are underfunded, lack clear goals, and lazy developers. The themeparks are just rehashed garbage chasing after hte WoW dollar.
The SANDBOX games are the ones that have lazy devs? The ones trying new ideas and innovating are LAZY? The only flaw of sandbox MMOs is being underfunded.
Blankly put, yes. No AAA company has made a sandbox game in over 10 years and those that are sandbox these days are made by indie developers whom have neither the resource nor the man power to create a functional game. Don't think just because new ideas are being introduced means they aren't lazy. Mortal online, Xyson, Darkfall online, ect ect have lazy developers. Darkfall online being the prime example; generally taking 1+year to release a patch.
Darkfall patches once a month... And taking time between patches is not a sign of being lazy, it's a sign of being an indie dev team with about 30 devs instead of the usually 300. Did you even think this post through?
Yes Darkfall Unholy wars does, but darkfall online before that hardly ever patched or made any content patches. Darkfall online's dev team was 50+ after launch and UW's is around 100+. Obviously you never played the game otherwise you'd know why the fanbase and myself complain about Tasos and their team.
"neither the resource nor the man power to create a functional game"
when the hell did a lack of resources become lazy?! that's just so unspeakably illogical and unpragmatic as to smack of ideology more than insight.
Seems you skipped over the listed games I mentioned and never played them. Darkfall online had a pretty big development team as did Mortal online.
Darkfall had 15-20 devs during development...That's smaller than MMOs back in 1999
Darkfall 1 was in development for 11 years. Intitially they had a small team but after DF1 launch they had around 50+ developers working on the game. Did you even research before posting this?
We live in a time where developers no longer want to invest in new ground breaking ideas and technology. They don't want to spend the time, money and hard work that is needed. Most are looking for the quick road to millions by putting out trash hoping it sticks. Whether it's Hollywood, television, comic books, or games. All looking for the next Walking Dead. The more they can put out and the quicker they do it, the greater the odds for a cash cow. Unfortunately, volume and quickness do not equate with quality when it comes to mmo's, arpg's, or moba's.
I've never been happier than now as a gamer... simply because I am not playing low quality MMORPGs anymore. I can find loads of indie, emulated, single-player, multi-player, FPS, MOBA and even mobile games that are far more fun than current MMORPGs.
I really did enjoy MMORPGs, but the genre is no longer worth the time, money and effort because good quality gaming simply isn't as common as it is in other genres.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Sometimes what you like is niche and that means the market might not cater to what you want.
Judging from the almost 100% failure rate of modern MMOs, I'd say its a bigger niche than themepark/WoWclones.
Just because you say its a failure doesn't mean it is.
You love DFUW but almost 95% of posters here agree that games a totally failure with one of the worst game developers in the history of gaming. Some people like SW:tor while others state its a big failure posters continue to post how many millions its making or speculate that its still in the red for developwment cost. Me I've had fun with TSW recently, is it a great success? Not at all but it makes enough to stay open and players have fun with it so in my book its not a failure. Does everything have to have WoW numbers to not be considered a failure?
Should we always state the developers and games have let us down if a game isn't our cup of tea. (because you know of course there's only one real way to play and that's our way, everyone else is just confused if they don't like what we like)
there's a lot of rage posts on these forums but its always the Whiney posts that annoy me. These are generally from players that hoped and dreamed too much and forgot all about real world limitations, and basically couldn't stay grounded with their expectations. They drank the kool aid and ate up every bit of Hype the Developers, Marketing and the Media could feed them and then are depressed when their expectations aren't met, and things fall short.
In the end Gaming has been around for thousands of years in its many different forms, if MMORPG's do die something else will grow to take its place and everyone will jump on that as the next big thing for a bit before they become dissatisfied with that too and start the doom/gloom/misery/depressions posts. life is a cycle, and man is always striving and never really 100% happy/satisfied
Originally posted by DMKano It's not over, most of the genre just evolved to cater to a different crowd.
There are indie games in the works that will bring back real danger and penalty for making mistakes in game.
Just don't expect any AAA game to do so ever again.
If it costs a lot to make, it is made for mass market - simple reality.
While I agree, DM (and OP), I often wonder about that last line.
Want to know how to cut a MMORPG budget in half? Cut out the voice over work and cut scenes
I think you mean Advertising.
The average 'AAA' title game has its development cost doubled from advertisement. There are so many better cheaper ways to advertise a game now, they need to stop doing the old industry standard of TV, and start using the thing their game revolves around The Internet.
Can someone name a AAA MMORPG that has INCREASED in population over time, outside of the 3 month launch?
I'd honestly be surprised. It wouldn't be Rift, they merged servers and shrank their staff several times. SWTOR absolutely not, almost everyone involved with that game had to get laid off for it to start turning a profit. Not to mention server merges, FTP, ect ect. Not LotRO. Not Aion. Absolutely not AoC. Not TSW. Not STO. Not DCUO.
The closest I saw was Planetside 2, though they had to merge too, and maybe GW2. (but thats hard to measure)
Themeparks clearly don't have the same staying power and long term growth pre WoW MMOs did. And that's largely because of their design.
All I can say, thank God it's not the same for regular single player/multi player games, and hopefully things will start changing for MMORPGs too starting in 2014.
Themeparks clearly don't have the same staying power and long term growth pre WoW MMOs did. And that's largely because of their design.
'Long term growth Pre WoW MMOs did'
So UO and EQ which had roughly 500k at its peak after several years in the market is considered to have 'staying power'?
And WoW, GW2 which has millions still playing (GW2 made 200 million so far since release last year) doesn't have staying power'.
Right.
That is some weird logic you got there. /Facepalm
I guess you don't understand business. First off, WoW is a fluke, not even comparable to anything else on the market, and you're just as foolish as the publishers who churn out these failed WoW clones if you think otherwise. As for GW2, nobody knows how many subs it has.
Steady growth and player retention are much better then a boom and bust.
Tired of lazy and/or scamming developers. (usually both)
Maybe im just getting old. What happened to the addictiveness, the spark, the magic, the difficulty and the competition. Every single game is the exact same bullshit. They are all one month wonders with zero longevity designed for someone with the intelligence of a gnat overpopulated with people that think they are genious. What the hell happened? I remember 10-12 years ago just day dreaming on what was ahead and what this genre would become. I remember wondering how amazed we would all be. I remember wondering about how amazing the virtual worlds would be that we would all explore. I remember real difficulty and the penalties if you died or failed. The comraderie and teamwork. I remember real communities. Real friendships and relationships that carried over off the screen. Now its just a huge cesspool no matter what game you enter its total rudeness and hate.
We should be treated with more respect. We spend thousands and thousands of dollars on games and keeping our systems up to spec to stay on top and its all just full of regret now. Total waste of time and money. Tell me a game thats worth the time and i will explain how ive played it and the problems it has.
I work 40-60 hours per week, i take very, very good care of my family but i still have the night. I mostly drink beer, read forums and wonder what the fuck happened.
Sorry for the rant.
I know exactly how you feel, I truly sympathise with anyone that has come to this realisation about their beloved MMO genre.
I don't know if I should say this on an open forum but I know where we can find the very person who triggered all of the terrible changes we have had to endure over the years, the changes that have taken away so much of the harsh gameplay mechanics that we used to enjoy many years ago.
Take a long hard look next time you pass a mirror, there is the guilty person responsible for the current state of MMO's, that person handed over the money to buy the next big thing, that person went to the forums and complained about downtime, that person went to the forums and complained about the lack of mounts, that person complained about the harsh death penalty, that person complained about every single aspect of MMO's that they wanted changed, but in truth they where just a phase we where going through, our first steps into the genre.
Today we find ourselves in something you wouldn't have recognised if you played at it's inception, but it's been a steady change and for most it's been very welcome, the genre undoubtedly is still growing and some developers are actually really listening to it's customer base rather than dictating to them.
So while I do sympathise with you take a moment and think about why things have changed, you've been playing for a decade plus so your as guilty as the rest of us for having pumped in the needed cash to keep these games alive.
Comments
This is your answer. Publishers took over, so WoW clones is all we get.
The SANDBOX games are the ones that have lazy devs? The ones trying new ideas and innovating are LAZY? The only flaw of sandbox MMOs is being underfunded.
Blankly put, yes. No AAA company has made a sandbox game in over 10 years and those that are sandbox these days are made by indie developers whom have neither the resource nor the man power to create a functional game. Don't think just because new ideas are being introduced means they aren't lazy. Mortal online, Xyson, Darkfall online, ect ect have lazy developers. Darkfall online being the prime example; generally taking 1+year to release a patch.
MurderHerd
"neither the resource nor the man power to create a functional game"
when the hell did a lack of resources become lazy?! that's just so unspeakably illogical and unpragmatic as to smack of ideology more than insight.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Seems you skipped over the listed games I mentioned and never played them. Darkfall online had a pretty big development team as did Mortal online. From the sandbox Indie games I've played i've come to the conclusion that most Indie developers are lazier in my opinion because they don't have suits breathing down their backs. I would have thought that would allow for better games and it does in the sense of not following the WoW formula, but allows the developers leeway for slacking off. Its not limited to Indie devs though; there are also other themepark development teams that in my opinion are lazy too;,such as Planetside 2.
So no its not illogical, spock. I am speaking through experience.
Ps:I said lack of resources manpower and in some cases laziness.
MurderHerd
Darkfall patches once a month... And taking time between patches is not a sign of being lazy, it's a sign of being an indie dev team with about 30 devs instead of the usually 300. Did you even think this post through?
Darkfall had 15-20 devs during development...That's smaller than MMOs back in 1999
Yes Darkfall Unholy wars does, but darkfall online before that hardly ever patched or made any content patches. Darkfall online's dev team was 50+ after launch and UW's is around 100+. Obviously you never played the game otherwise you'd know why the fanbase and myself complain about Tasos and their team.
MurderHerd
Darkfall 1 was in development for 11 years. Intitially they had a small team but after DF1 launch they had around 50+ developers working on the game. Did you even research before posting this?
MurderHerd
+1 OP
We live in a time where developers no longer want to invest in new ground breaking ideas and technology. They don't want to spend the time, money and hard work that is needed. Most are looking for the quick road to millions by putting out trash hoping it sticks. Whether it's Hollywood, television, comic books, or games. All looking for the next Walking Dead. The more they can put out and the quicker they do it, the greater the odds for a cash cow. Unfortunately, volume and quickness do not equate with quality when it comes to mmo's, arpg's, or moba's.
Judging from the almost 100% failure rate of modern MMOs, I'd say its a bigger niche than themepark/WoWclones.
I've never been happier than now as a gamer... simply because I am not playing low quality MMORPGs anymore. I can find loads of indie, emulated, single-player, multi-player, FPS, MOBA and even mobile games that are far more fun than current MMORPGs.
I really did enjoy MMORPGs, but the genre is no longer worth the time, money and effort because good quality gaming simply isn't as common as it is in other genres.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Here, here!
OP here have a cookie, your story is so sad to bad btw people are dying in RL while you moan about MMO's not making up for your lifes short comings.
Welcome to the real world, sometimes it sucks, fight or give up. Sounds like you've given up so Bubye. ( won't even ask you for your stuff.)
( Sorry I just don't feel like giving a hug to evey person that occasionally gets depressed in their life. I'll take my ban now thank you.)
Same. In fact, I will most likely be dead.
Gamer till I die baby....
Just because you say its a failure doesn't mean it is.
You love DFUW but almost 95% of posters here agree that games a totally failure with one of the worst game developers in the history of gaming. Some people like SW:tor while others state its a big failure posters continue to post how many millions its making or speculate that its still in the red for developwment cost. Me I've had fun with TSW recently, is it a great success? Not at all but it makes enough to stay open and players have fun with it so in my book its not a failure. Does everything have to have WoW numbers to not be considered a failure?
Should we always state the developers and games have let us down if a game isn't our cup of tea. (because you know of course there's only one real way to play and that's our way, everyone else is just confused if they don't like what we like)
there's a lot of rage posts on these forums but its always the Whiney posts that annoy me. These are generally from players that hoped and dreamed too much and forgot all about real world limitations, and basically couldn't stay grounded with their expectations. They drank the kool aid and ate up every bit of Hype the Developers, Marketing and the Media could feed them and then are depressed when their expectations aren't met, and things fall short.
In the end Gaming has been around for thousands of years in its many different forms, if MMORPG's do die something else will grow to take its place and everyone will jump on that as the next big thing for a bit before they become dissatisfied with that too and start the doom/gloom/misery/depressions posts. life is a cycle, and man is always striving and never really 100% happy/satisfied
I'm with ya OP
I'm mostly on independent servers that throwback to a golden age that I wanted to go back to in 2 mmo's I loved.
It's 2x harder to get into.
With having a life these days, wife, job etc
and
having to regrind to get back to where I originally was on my old production server days
isn't as fun as the first time of course.
I think years of raiding really burned me out also.
4+ hours a few nights a week. dkp, politics etc adds to the burn
I haven't played an mmo that I have found really fun to give me that "if i'm not playing I'm missing something" feel in many years.
There's nothing on the horizon that I've seen or heard to change that either.
Back to my single player, rpg, simulation, action adventure, strategy, fps fun.
I think you mean Advertising.
The average 'AAA' title game has its development cost doubled from advertisement. There are so many better cheaper ways to advertise a game now, they need to stop doing the old industry standard of TV, and start using the thing their game revolves around The Internet.
Can someone name a AAA MMORPG that has INCREASED in population over time, outside of the 3 month launch?
I'd honestly be surprised. It wouldn't be Rift, they merged servers and shrank their staff several times. SWTOR absolutely not, almost everyone involved with that game had to get laid off for it to start turning a profit. Not to mention server merges, FTP, ect ect. Not LotRO. Not Aion. Absolutely not AoC. Not TSW. Not STO. Not DCUO.
The closest I saw was Planetside 2, though they had to merge too, and maybe GW2. (but thats hard to measure)
Themeparks clearly don't have the same staying power and long term growth pre WoW MMOs did. And that's largely because of their design.
Executive Editor (Games) http://www.wccftech.com
'Long term growth Pre WoW MMOs did'
So UO and EQ which had roughly 500k at its peak after several years in the market is considered to have 'staying power'?
And WoW, GW2 which has millions still playing (GW2 made 200 million so far since release last year) doesn't have staying power'.
Right.
That is some weird logic you got there. /Facepalm
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I guess you don't understand business. First off, WoW is a fluke, not even comparable to anything else on the market, and you're just as foolish as the publishers who churn out these failed WoW clones if you think otherwise. As for GW2, nobody knows how many subs it has.
Steady growth and player retention are much better then a boom and bust.
I know exactly how you feel, I truly sympathise with anyone that has come to this realisation about their beloved MMO genre.
I don't know if I should say this on an open forum but I know where we can find the very person who triggered all of the terrible changes we have had to endure over the years, the changes that have taken away so much of the harsh gameplay mechanics that we used to enjoy many years ago.
Take a long hard look next time you pass a mirror, there is the guilty person responsible for the current state of MMO's, that person handed over the money to buy the next big thing, that person went to the forums and complained about downtime, that person went to the forums and complained about the lack of mounts, that person complained about the harsh death penalty, that person complained about every single aspect of MMO's that they wanted changed, but in truth they where just a phase we where going through, our first steps into the genre.
Today we find ourselves in something you wouldn't have recognised if you played at it's inception, but it's been a steady change and for most it's been very welcome, the genre undoubtedly is still growing and some developers are actually really listening to it's customer base rather than dictating to them.
So while I do sympathise with you take a moment and think about why things have changed, you've been playing for a decade plus so your as guilty as the rest of us for having pumped in the needed cash to keep these games alive.