You try to force me into playing the way or pace you think is good , rather than the way I prefer, I leave. Its as simple as that.
You may fool yourself into believing that this makes players more social but it doesn't, it simply weeds out a lot of people. Maybe this is what you want but you don't fool yourself into thinking it is anything other than just that. You are being fooled by a sampling bias and mistaking correlation with causation.
You know what I do to people in real life that try to "force" me into things? Well all in all it depends on the context but by and large I try to make sure it is as unpleasant as possible for them, one way or the other.
So I would suggest that the next time you characterize a feature as "forced" anything; you think twice. Not everyone is a limp-dick pushover. But more importantly why are you being such an asshole that you need to control someone else? Think about it. Do you really want to be associated with something that "forces" anyone into anything that is not life or death? If you do you may want to reconsider what exactly you get out of "social" interactions. Personally I don't want to socialize with anyone who wants to do this sort of thing and I will drop them like a bad habit when I realize they are this way. So isn't this whole thing a moot point?
So I would suggest that the next time you characterize a feature as "forced" anything; you think twice. Not everyone is a limp-dick pushover. But more importantly why are you being such an asshole that you need to control someone else? Think about it. Do you really want to be associated with something that "forces" anyone into anything that is not life or death? If you do you may want to reconsider what exactly you get out of "social" interactions. Personally I don't want to socialize with anyone who wants to do this sort of thing and I will drop them like a bad habit when I realize they are this way. So isn't this whole thing a moot point?
Of course they do. For a lot of people who want to force their style of gameplay, it's all about validating their own choices. If everyone has to do it, they can feel good about their choices, it's "popular". If they're the only ones doing it, they feel bad because they're alone and unpopular. That's really all this is about, waving one's dick around and forcing everyone else to join them so they feel like they're popular.
Given that developers as a whole have more access to information than anyone here*, and the enforced down time has been whittled down to nearly nothing, I would say that there are many more people who are interested more in the encounters than some sort of socialization between encounters. It could be those people hate other players, don't want to socialize at all, or just that they'd rather socialize in a "social" space like towns.
* Sometimes developers post here. Raph Koster has posted here. :-) Developers and people in the industry probably know a lot more than we do, even if they are posting here.
If everything is so fine and dandy and everyone knows what he is doing, why does not wow have 16+ mil subs, Rift 5+ and so on?
Btw, what you are talking about was the result of socialisation in some products in the past, if you had ingame friends, you could kill for hours and hours , no downtime with support chars, more encounter oppotunities in guild dungeons and more.
I saw this yesterday, and thought to myself, "I agree." Today after I had did team practice in Wushu, and browsed the market, I found downtime.
I decided to climb to a spot I know. A house sitting way up on the side of a mountain over looking the city. When I got up there, to my surprise I saw someone playing music. I sat down and began to practice my calligraphy. There we practicing the arts on top of a roof of a mountainside house, over looking the city. I had no where to go, so as he played, I wrote.
Downtime allowed this to happen. My story my not sound like much, but it made the 13 yr old pen & paper rpg'r in me's day.
That's not really the type of downtime talked about here. You made a choice to take it slow and not partipate in any action intense activities. The type of downtime discussed here is 'forced downtime' where the player is forced to do nothing in the middle of an activity. It is more similar to you climbing that mountain and the halfway there, the game would not let you climb more and insisted that you do nothing for the next 15 minutes.
^ /nod
That's the type of down time people have been suggesting already exists in mmos. It's the time and place for it. Not when you feel like action/adventure and getting forced to stop and "chat" instead.
Im not so sure we are not talking about the same thing. I decided to do what I did, because I could not do any more cultivation for the day. This is forced progression downtime. My thing was off limits, because of this forced down time, decided to relax a bit.
Originally posted by FinalFikus bcbully with the score:)
There definitely seems to be a big divide between the people that need the game to force them to do something other than level/grind and the people that just do it naturally.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I saw this yesterday, and thought to myself, "I agree." Today after I had did team practice in Wushu, and browsed the market, I found downtime.
I decided to climb to a spot I know. A house sitting way up on the side of a mountain over looking the city. When I got up there, to my surprise I saw someone playing music. I sat down and began to practice my calligraphy. There we practicing the arts on top of a roof of a mountainside house, over looking the city. I had no where to go, so as he played, I wrote.
Downtime allowed this to happen. My story my not sound like much, but it made the 13 yr old pen & paper rpg'r in me's day.
That's not really the type of downtime talked about here. You made a choice to take it slow and not partipate in any action intense activities. The type of downtime discussed here is 'forced downtime' where the player is forced to do nothing in the middle of an activity. It is more similar to you climbing that mountain and the halfway there, the game would not let you climb more and insisted that you do nothing for the next 15 minutes.
^ /nod
That's the type of down time people have been suggesting already exists in mmos. It's the time and place for it. Not when you feel like action/adventure and getting forced to stop and "chat" instead.
Im not so sure we are not talking about the same thing. I decided to do what I did, because I could not do any more cultivation for the day. This is forced progression downtime. My thing was off limits, because of this forced down time, decided to relax a bit.
There is a HUGE difference between forced downtime, and a game REWARDING down time, I hope you guys realize.
I do think anyone who looks at the "Socialization requires downtime" piece really needs to look at this later follow-up, and the discussion thread under it (start at the bottom and read up, it's sorted in reverse order):
I do think anyone who looks at the "Socialization requires downtime" piece really needs to look at this later follow-up, and the discussion thread under it (start at the bottom and read up, it's sorted in reverse order):
"forced grouping does not force socialization, it forces teamwork"
Excellent point The value of required grouping is in the necessity it creates for more effectively working together.
"It does suggest that automating travel, even if it’s still a timesink, has distinct advantages. For instance, I’d probably spend a lot more time chatting on World of Warcraft if I weren’t constantly interrupting my line of typing in order to guide my character’s movement while running long distances." - Amberyl
Yes! I feel the same way as Amberyl does. When traveling in an MMO, I often choose the automated version because it is allowing me to chat or do other things. The "challenge" of navigating around junk mobs to avoid getting dazed, knocked off my horse or other ridiculous penalties is far outweighed by my interest in relaying "hey, will be there soon. crossing through [loc] now" or "we've got a few doing the next quest. Meet us there. We're starting in 5" or any number of other - possibly not even game related- discussions I could have with guildies, group mates or friends.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I do think anyone who looks at the "Socialization requires downtime" piece really needs to look at this later follow-up, and the discussion thread under it (start at the bottom and read up, it's sorted in reverse order):
I think what it strongly points out is that we mostly disagree because we're different types of people and players. Trying to force everyone into one mold would be a disaster for the game. Recognizing the different ways people like to socialize and providing an outlet for each ( or as many as possible) is a much better way to build an online community.
Anything that increases the chances of people chatting without forcing anyone to do it in times they don't really want to, should have a positive long term effect?
And thx for the link. It was an interesting read that I probably need to read when it's not midnight and I'm half asleep
IMO, global chat is the be all and end all to socialization in MMO's. I love to monitor chat in MMO's, just to listen to the stupid and sometimes, interesting and funny things we all have to say. And from that chat I can pretty much pick out who the good guys are and, who the chaff are that can be weeded out.
From there it might be a PM that gets a conversation going or it might be a guild invite. The rest is up to you after that.
But being forced to group with a bunch of peeps I know nothing about, well that could be good or bad. More often bad I think. Much rather make my own decisions on who to play with than go through that other process.
Now for those that equate socialization with finding buddies that perform well in group combat situations, that is a whole different ball of wax. I think that is what these forced group/downtime guys are looking for. Guys they can brag to their buds about their combat prowess to, or learn new techniques from, so they can brag some more about their skillz.. You know, the " You are my soul brother man, and I would gladly die in battle for you ! " types. The macho gamer type. I get that. Its cool.
Me I just like goofing around and having fun, so please don't force me into your group. You will be disappointed.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Once you force/reward one system, you can't wonder why people don't socialize or participate in other activities naturally.
If combat progression is forced or rewarded, socialization must be too if that's even important anymore.
Or make grinding through content either less linear or less of an objective. There was game-generated reward or return for hanging out at a Mage Tower or Kazola's Tavern in UO, but surprisingly, people would do it, even when there was plenty of hunting and leveling they could be doing.
Today's MMOs don't even have places for people to socialize anymore. I don't consider the current One Town to Rule Them All design to be an effective social arenas as it is the equivalent of global chat - a universal bucket to throw everyone into, and that's simply not how people best interact, especially when everyone is from such diverse backgrounds and such a wide range of ages.
The more recent housing implementations seem to be one way of compensating for that, allowing players to quickly travel to each other and group up in their team/clan/clique-specific locales. They seem to allow for socialization and interaction outside the guild unit, as the guild unit is often one's function-based circle but not necessarily one of their social circles.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Once you force/reward one system, you can't wonder why people don't socialize or participate in other activities naturally.
If combat progression is forced or rewarded, socialization must be too if that's even important anymore.
Or make grinding through content either less linear or less of an objective. There was game-generated reward or return for hanging out at a Mage Tower or Kazola's Tavern in UO, but surprisingly, people would do it, even when there was plenty of hunting and leveling they could be doing.
Today's MMOs don't even have places for people to socialize anymore. I don't consider the current One Town to Rule Them All design to be an effective social arenas as it is the equivalent of global chat - a universal bucket to throw everyone into, and that's simply not how people best interact, especially when everyone is from such diverse backgrounds and such a wide range of ages.
The more recent housing implementations seem to be one way of compensating for that, allowing players to quickly travel to each other and group up in their team/clan/clique-specific locales. They seem to allow for socialization and interaction outside the guild unit, as the guild unit is often one's function-based circle but not necessarily one of their social circles.
Plus, knowing that 'change' is just a patch away isn't too helpful. It's no way to play, but it is a reality. It's Just the way it is today.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by FinalFikusbcbully with the score:)
There definitely seems to be a big divide between the people that need the game to force them to do something other than level/grind and the people that just do it naturally.
There definitely is. From the posts I have seen, many players complain about no time to play, so every second must be "productive." How many of these time-constrained players will take the time to just sit back and relax or do something unproductive?
If these players were not so numerous, there would be no need to force downtime. Players would take it upon themselves to log in and relax occasionally. If I was feeling social when I logged in and went to an Inn, Tavern, or other safe place to just hang out and others were there, "forced downtime" would not even be an issue for me.
Since possibly (no numbers to support this) the majority of players today do not do this, those that look to MMOs for interaction with others online feel that one possible solution is to force downtime within the game.
Personally, I'd rather not see it come to that. I'd much rather play with players who find similar enjoyment in the game as I do. Downtime would not even be an issue then
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by FinalFikus bcbully with the score:)
There definitely seems to be a big divide between the people that need the game to force them to do something other than level/grind and the people that just do it naturally.
I have the feeling that the people who want downtime forced by the game think that when it's not forced, it's a waste of their time.
For instance:
- Spending 5 minutes chatting while eating and drinking to regen mana/health is not a waste of time since the game forced it.
- Spending 5 minutes chatting with another randomly encountered player, or in a town, is a waste of time because they are not forced to do it and could be grinding levels or gear instead.
It's a mindset. They don't realize that the two situations are the same, except that the seconds gives everyone a choice.
Forced or rewarded. Please.
Subtle psychotherapy is not really interesting.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by FinalFikusbcbully with the score:)
There definitely seems to be a big divide between the people that need the game to force them to do something other than level/grind and the people that just do it naturally.
There definitely is. From the posts I have seen, many players complain about no time to play, so every second must be "productive." How many of these time-constrained players will take the time to just sit back and relax or do something unproductive?
If these players were not so numerous, there would be no need to force downtime. Players would take it upon themselves to log in and relax occasionally. If I was feeling social when I logged in and went to an Inn, Tavern, or other safe place to just hang out and others were there, "forced downtime" would not even be an issue for me.
Since possibly (no numbers to support this) the majority of players today do not do this, those that look to MMOs for interaction with others online feel that one possible solution is to force downtime within the game.
Personally, I'd rather not see it come to that. I'd much rather play with players who find similar enjoyment in the game as I do. Downtime would not even be an issue then
Progression is the root. The sacred cow is off limits, so there's little that can be done. People that want social gameplay in a massive multiplayer rpg are oppressive lol.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by FinalFikus bcbully with the score:)
There definitely seems to be a big divide between the people that need the game to force them to do something other than level/grind and the people that just do it naturally.
I have the feeling that the people who want downtime forced by the game think that when it's not forced, it's a waste of their time.
For instance:
- Spending 5 minutes chatting while eating and drinking to regen mana/health is not a waste of time since the game forced it.
- Spending 5 minutes chatting with another randomly encountered player, or in a town, is a waste of time because they are not forced to do it and could be grinding levels or gear instead.
It's a mindset. They don't realize that the two situations are the same, except that the seconds gives everyone a choice.
..and we are once again at the argument that to blend/puree your steak with fries and sauce is a good thing because it happens anyways when you eat it, there is no difference to what arriwes in the stomach, AND it gives the CHOICE to eat your steak with a spoon or straw...
Originally posted by Raph I do think anyone who looks at the "Socialization requires downtime" piece really needs to look at this later follow-up, and the discussion thread under it (start at the bottom and read up, it's sorted in reverse order): "Forcing Interaction" - http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/09/forcing-interaction/
"forced grouping does not force socialization, it forces teamwork"Excellent point The value of required grouping is in the necessity it creates for more effectively working together. "It does suggest that automating travel, even if its still a timesink, has distinct advantages. For instance, Id probably spend a lot more time chatting on World of Warcraft if I werent constantly interrupting my line of typing in order to guide my characters movement while running long distances." - AmberylYes! I feel the same way as Amberyl does. When traveling in an MMO, I often choose the automated version because it is allowing me to chat or do other things. The "challenge" of navigating around junk mobs to avoid getting dazed, knocked off my horse or other ridiculous penalties is far outweighed by my interest in relaying "hey, will be there soon. crossing through [loc] now" or "we've got a few doing the next quest. Meet us there. We're starting in 5" or any number of other - possibly not even game related- discussions I could have with guildies, group mates or friends.
I like both points brought up and agree. Grouping is not socializing to me. It is combat made more efficient. It also provides a much faster pace for gameplay than soloing does.
Like Amberyl and you, I liked EQ's boatrides and WoW's flying transports. Neither were instantaneous and allowed for socializing while taking place. Wouldn't they be considered "forced downtime", though?
Let me also add from Raph's link what caught my eye, in response to a chart by PlayOn: "The conclusion seems obvious RPers level slower because they spend more time chatting. Since there is only one incentive structure in the game experience points players who divide their attention are penalized relative to the average player. In other words that verge on hyperbole, the games incentive structure punishes people who socialize." This about wraps it up nicely. It is unfortunate that people need to be rewarded for having fun. When the first MMO I saw giving general XP for crafting, I was saddened. When I played GW2 and they "awarded" exploration and made it a "goal" instead of "just for fun", again, I was saddened. Achievements are one of the worst features to happen to MMOs, in my opinion. Is this part of the generation that needs rewards for doing just about anything they do? Maybe it is my "old-timer" syndrome kicking into high gear, I don't know
I guess, for me, the saddest commentary on this whole subject is that too many players just do not find relaxing in an MMO with others fun, or worth their precious time.
Thanks, Raph, for sharing your thoughts
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by FinalFikus bcbully with the score:)
There definitely seems to be a big divide between the people that need the game to force them to do something other than level/grind and the people that just do it naturally.
I have the feeling that the people who want downtime forced by the game think that when it's not forced, it's a waste of their time.
For instance:
- Spending 5 minutes chatting while eating and drinking to regen mana/health is not a waste of time since the game forced it.
- Spending 5 minutes chatting with another randomly encountered player, or in a town, is a waste of time because they are not forced to do it and could be grinding levels or gear instead.
It's a mindset. They don't realize that the two situations are the same, except that the seconds gives everyone a choice.
Has it occurred to you that some of us prefer downtime as you call it, because we like the challenge of managing your mana for the long haul.. Group mana management is a lost art for the most part.. Having classes that increase regeneration for both health and mana should be viable.. You may like playing zerg combat from one pack of mobs to the next, but some of us don't. Our voice deserves the same respect as yours.. Correct?
Originally posted by FinalFikus bcbully with the score:)
There definitely seems to be a big divide between the people that need the game to force them to do something other than level/grind and the people that just do it naturally.
I have the feeling that the people who want downtime forced by the game think that when it's not forced, it's a waste of their time.
For instance:
- Spending 5 minutes chatting while eating and drinking to regen mana/health is not a waste of time since the game forced it.
- Spending 5 minutes chatting with another randomly encountered player, or in a town, is a waste of time because they are not forced to do it and could be grinding levels or gear instead.
It's a mindset. They don't realize that the two situations are the same, except that the seconds gives everyone a choice.
Has it occurred to you that some of us prefer downtime as you call it, because we like the challenge of managing your mana for the long haul.. Group mana management is a lost art for the most part.. Having classes that increase regeneration for both health and mana should be viable.. You may like playing zerg combat from one pack of mobs to the next, but some of us don't. Our voice deserves the same respect as yours.. Correct?
That's a whole other topic and completely unrelated to what we are discussing here, which is the belief that forced downtime strongly encouraged and aided personal interaction. Plenty of people enjoy managing mana/health/stamina and, as AC clearly shows, there are ways to do that without completely removing a player's option to play the game, but that, again, is a conversation for another topic as this discussion isn't about efficient regen or watching blue lines rise.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Raph I do think anyone who looks at the "Socialization requires downtime" piece really needs to look at this later follow-up, and the discussion thread under it (start at the bottom and read up, it's sorted in reverse order): "Forcing Interaction" - http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/09/forcing-interaction/
"forced grouping does not force socialization, it forces teamwork"
Excellent point The value of required grouping is in the necessity it creates for more effectively working together.
"It does suggest that automating travel, even if it’s still a timesink, has distinct advantages. For instance, I’d probably spend a lot more time chatting on World of Warcraft if I weren’t constantly interrupting my line of typing in order to guide my character’s movement while running long distances." - Amberyl
Yes! I feel the same way as Amberyl does. When traveling in an MMO, I often choose the automated version because it is allowing me to chat or do other things. The "challenge" of navigating around junk mobs to avoid getting dazed, knocked off my horse or other ridiculous penalties is far outweighed by my interest in relaying "hey, will be there soon. crossing through [loc] now" or "we've got a few doing the next quest. Meet us there. We're starting in 5" or any number of other - possibly not even game related- discussions I could have with guildies, group mates or friends.
I like both points brought up and agree. Grouping is not socializing to me. It is combat made more efficient. It also provides a much faster pace for gameplay than soloing does.
Like Amberyl and you, I liked EQ's boatrides and WoW's flying transports. Neither were instantaneous and allowed for socializing while taking place. Wouldn't they be considered "forced downtime", though?
You aren't in the middle of something when you do either of those. More importantly, that boat ride or griffon flight was taken when you chose to take it, no? I think that to call that 'forced downtime' would be the same as saying that anything between you and SMASHKILLLOOTREPEAT is forced downtime, which would be quite the extreme.
Personally, I think a big part of the problem is that many MMOs are using the very limited and linear gameplay of EQ. Expand the options and reduce the emphasis on grinding through levels, and there would probably be a lot more socializing and a lot more interaction.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Raph I do think anyone who looks at the "Socialization requires downtime" piece really needs to look at this later follow-up, and the discussion thread under it (start at the bottom and read up, it's sorted in reverse order):"Forcing Interaction" - http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/09/forcing-interaction/
What the cr@p, man. That doesn't boil things down to "Loktofelt is [right/wrong]". It's almost like this is a topic that changes depending on the game that's being discussed, and the players that are being considered.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Banaghran Originally posted by lizardbones Given that developers as a whole have more access to information than anyone here*, and the enforced down time has been whittled down to nearly nothing, I would say that there are many more people who are interested more in the encounters than some sort of socialization between encounters. It could be those people hate other players, don't want to socialize at all, or just that they'd rather socialize in a "social" space like towns. * Sometimes developers post here. Raph Koster has posted here. :-) Developers and people in the industry probably know a lot more than we do, even if they are posting here.
If everything is so fine and dandy and everyone knows what he is doing, why does not wow have 16+ mil subs, Rift 5+ and so on?
Btw, what you are talking about was the result of socialisation in some products in the past, if you had ingame friends, you could kill for hours and hours , no downtime with support chars, more encounter oppotunities in guild dungeons and more.
Flame on!
1) Nothing lasts forever. Just because leveling and then end game raiding attracted twelve million players four years ago doesn't mean that's the ideal solution now.
2) Downtime vs Uptime isn't the only factor that does into players liking a game. It doesn't matter if Eve has the perfect balance between downtime and uptime if I hate the fact that I don't have a player avatar.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
You try to force me into playing the way or pace you think is good , rather than the way I prefer, I leave. Its as simple as that.
You may fool yourself into believing that this makes players more social but it doesn't, it simply weeds out a lot of people. Maybe this is what you want but you don't fool yourself into thinking it is anything other than just that. You are being fooled by a sampling bias and mistaking correlation with causation.
You know what I do to people in real life that try to "force" me into things? Well all in all it depends on the context but by and large I try to make sure it is as unpleasant as possible for them, one way or the other.
So I would suggest that the next time you characterize a feature as "forced" anything; you think twice. Not everyone is a limp-dick pushover. But more importantly why are you being such an asshole that you need to control someone else? Think about it. Do you really want to be associated with something that "forces" anyone into anything that is not life or death? If you do you may want to reconsider what exactly you get out of "social" interactions. Personally I don't want to socialize with anyone who wants to do this sort of thing and I will drop them like a bad habit when I realize they are this way. So isn't this whole thing a moot point?
Of course they do. For a lot of people who want to force their style of gameplay, it's all about validating their own choices. If everyone has to do it, they can feel good about their choices, it's "popular". If they're the only ones doing it, they feel bad because they're alone and unpopular. That's really all this is about, waving one's dick around and forcing everyone else to join them so they feel like they're popular.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Every game you've ever played forces you to play at its pace.
And if you don't like an MMO with a different pace, fine, leave. There are a thousand other games for you.
If everything is so fine and dandy and everyone knows what he is doing, why does not wow have 16+ mil subs, Rift 5+ and so on?
Btw, what you are talking about was the result of socialisation in some products in the past, if you had ingame friends, you could kill for hours and hours , no downtime with support chars, more encounter oppotunities in guild dungeons and more.
Flame on!
Im not so sure we are not talking about the same thing. I decided to do what I did, because I could not do any more cultivation for the day. This is forced progression downtime. My thing was off limits, because of this forced down time, decided to relax a bit.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
There definitely seems to be a big divide between the people that need the game to force them to do something other than level/grind and the people that just do it naturally.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There is a HUGE difference between forced downtime, and a game REWARDING down time, I hope you guys realize.
I do think anyone who looks at the "Socialization requires downtime" piece really needs to look at this later follow-up, and the discussion thread under it (start at the bottom and read up, it's sorted in reverse order):
"Forcing Interaction" - http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/09/forcing-interaction/
"forced grouping does not force socialization, it forces teamwork"
Excellent point The value of required grouping is in the necessity it creates for more effectively working together.
"It does suggest that automating travel, even if it’s still a timesink, has distinct advantages. For instance, I’d probably spend a lot more time chatting on World of Warcraft if I weren’t constantly interrupting my line of typing in order to guide my character’s movement while running long distances." - Amberyl
Yes! I feel the same way as Amberyl does. When traveling in an MMO, I often choose the automated version because it is allowing me to chat or do other things. The "challenge" of navigating around junk mobs to avoid getting dazed, knocked off my horse or other ridiculous penalties is far outweighed by my interest in relaying "hey, will be there soon. crossing through [loc] now" or "we've got a few doing the next quest. Meet us there. We're starting in 5" or any number of other - possibly not even game related- discussions I could have with guildies, group mates or friends.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think what it strongly points out is that we mostly disagree because we're different types of people and players. Trying to force everyone into one mold would be a disaster for the game. Recognizing the different ways people like to socialize and providing an outlet for each ( or as many as possible) is a much better way to build an online community.
Anything that increases the chances of people chatting without forcing anyone to do it in times they don't really want to, should have a positive long term effect?
And thx for the link. It was an interesting read that I probably need to read when it's not midnight and I'm half asleep
IMO, global chat is the be all and end all to socialization in MMO's. I love to monitor chat in MMO's, just to listen to the stupid and sometimes, interesting and funny things we all have to say. And from that chat I can pretty much pick out who the good guys are and, who the chaff are that can be weeded out.
From there it might be a PM that gets a conversation going or it might be a guild invite. The rest is up to you after that.
But being forced to group with a bunch of peeps I know nothing about, well that could be good or bad. More often bad I think. Much rather make my own decisions on who to play with than go through that other process.
Now for those that equate socialization with finding buddies that perform well in group combat situations, that is a whole different ball of wax. I think that is what these forced group/downtime guys are looking for. Guys they can brag to their buds about their combat prowess to, or learn new techniques from, so they can brag some more about their skillz.. You know, the " You are my soul brother man, and I would gladly die in battle for you ! " types. The macho gamer type. I get that. Its cool.
Me I just like goofing around and having fun, so please don't force me into your group. You will be disappointed.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Once you force/reward one system, you can't wonder why people don't socialize or participate in other activities naturally.
If combat progression is forced or rewarded, socialization must be too if that's even important anymore.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Or make grinding through content either less linear or less of an objective. There was game-generated reward or return for hanging out at a Mage Tower or Kazola's Tavern in UO, but surprisingly, people would do it, even when there was plenty of hunting and leveling they could be doing.
Today's MMOs don't even have places for people to socialize anymore. I don't consider the current One Town to Rule Them All design to be an effective social arenas as it is the equivalent of global chat - a universal bucket to throw everyone into, and that's simply not how people best interact, especially when everyone is from such diverse backgrounds and such a wide range of ages.
The more recent housing implementations seem to be one way of compensating for that, allowing players to quickly travel to each other and group up in their team/clan/clique-specific locales. They seem to allow for socialization and interaction outside the guild unit, as the guild unit is often one's function-based circle but not necessarily one of their social circles.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Plus, knowing that 'change' is just a patch away isn't too helpful. It's no way to play, but it is a reality. It's Just the way it is today.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
If these players were not so numerous, there would be no need to force downtime. Players would take it upon themselves to log in and relax occasionally. If I was feeling social when I logged in and went to an Inn, Tavern, or other safe place to just hang out and others were there, "forced downtime" would not even be an issue for me.
Since possibly (no numbers to support this) the majority of players today do not do this, those that look to MMOs for interaction with others online feel that one possible solution is to force downtime within the game.
Personally, I'd rather not see it come to that. I'd much rather play with players who find similar enjoyment in the game as I do. Downtime would not even be an issue then
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Forced or rewarded. Please.
Subtle psychotherapy is not really interesting.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Progression is the root. The sacred cow is off limits, so there's little that can be done. People that want social gameplay in a massive multiplayer rpg are oppressive lol.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
..and we are once again at the argument that to blend/puree your steak with fries and sauce is a good thing because it happens anyways when you eat it, there is no difference to what arriwes in the stomach, AND it gives the CHOICE to eat your steak with a spoon or straw...
Flame on!
Like Amberyl and you, I liked EQ's boatrides and WoW's flying transports. Neither were instantaneous and allowed for socializing while taking place. Wouldn't they be considered "forced downtime", though?
Let me also add from Raph's link what caught my eye, in response to a chart by PlayOn:
"The conclusion seems obvious RPers level slower because they spend more time chatting. Since there is only one incentive structure in the game experience points players who divide their attention are penalized relative to the average player. In other words that verge on hyperbole, the games incentive structure punishes people who socialize."
This about wraps it up nicely. It is unfortunate that people need to be rewarded for having fun. When the first MMO I saw giving general XP for crafting, I was saddened. When I played GW2 and they "awarded" exploration and made it a "goal" instead of "just for fun", again, I was saddened. Achievements are one of the worst features to happen to MMOs, in my opinion. Is this part of the generation that needs rewards for doing just about anything they do? Maybe it is my "old-timer" syndrome kicking into high gear, I don't know
I guess, for me, the saddest commentary on this whole subject is that too many players just do not find relaxing in an MMO with others fun, or worth their precious time.
Thanks, Raph, for sharing your thoughts
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Has it occurred to you that some of us prefer downtime as you call it, because we like the challenge of managing your mana for the long haul.. Group mana management is a lost art for the most part.. Having classes that increase regeneration for both health and mana should be viable.. You may like playing zerg combat from one pack of mobs to the next, but some of us don't. Our voice deserves the same respect as yours.. Correct?
That's a whole other topic and completely unrelated to what we are discussing here, which is the belief that forced downtime strongly encouraged and aided personal interaction. Plenty of people enjoy managing mana/health/stamina and, as AC clearly shows, there are ways to do that without completely removing a player's option to play the game, but that, again, is a conversation for another topic as this discussion isn't about efficient regen or watching blue lines rise.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You aren't in the middle of something when you do either of those. More importantly, that boat ride or griffon flight was taken when you chose to take it, no? I think that to call that 'forced downtime' would be the same as saying that anything between you and SMASHKILLLOOTREPEAT is forced downtime, which would be quite the extreme.
Personally, I think a big part of the problem is that many MMOs are using the very limited and linear gameplay of EQ. Expand the options and reduce the emphasis on grinding through levels, and there would probably be a lot more socializing and a lot more interaction.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What the cr@p, man. That doesn't boil things down to "Loktofelt is [right/wrong]". It's almost like this is a topic that changes depending on the game that's being discussed, and the players that are being considered.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Btw, what you are talking about was the result of socialisation in some products in the past, if you had ingame friends, you could kill for hours and hours , no downtime with support chars, more encounter oppotunities in guild dungeons and more.
Flame on!
1) Nothing lasts forever. Just because leveling and then end game raiding attracted twelve million players four years ago doesn't mean that's the ideal solution now.
2) Downtime vs Uptime isn't the only factor that does into players liking a game. It doesn't matter if Eve has the perfect balance between downtime and uptime if I hate the fact that I don't have a player avatar.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.