Also, I like LEGO analogy: if one want to pay for ready made rather then enjoy building - let them do it. I could not care less. In fact it may be a good thing if it let some people to "catch up" so we can play together. Although I doubt that kind of player that would pay, would also enjoy really playing the game, but maybe some "normal" players could make a good use of such a feature.
As to play 4 convenience - as in real life: there are times when you order a pizza delivery and there are times you make it yourself and have fun doing it. Nothing wrong with that.
Originally posted by Ice-Queen If you can buy something from a game shop and sell it for ingame gold/gems/currency, I consider it Pay to Win. That's what most of the cash shops are today. I don't have a problem with it though, because I don't play games that do that. I prefer a subscription only mmorpg.
I agree with you. Mind you I play SWTOR but don't buy Cartel Coins , I subb and use the CC attached to my monthly subb. The only thing that really has irked me but I got over it is the fact we are all involved in such cash shop/P2W credit swapping as well it's in the system on the game now and thus anything you buy off the GTN has been tainted by the influx of real money , the economy in the game because of this fact is no longer determined by just gaming but from some peoples wallets.
Please note that goes for any game that lets you buy items ( with real money ) to sell in the game. Shame really isn't it ?
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing. "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13 The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
Do we need a new term for this type of design, that seems to be becoming standard fare?
Yes, but they've already termed it. its called Pay4Conveience.
They let you buy items from their stores with real life cash, and then put them on the Auction House/GTN/Merchant/whatever and sell them for in game currency, which in turn allows you to purchase most of the stronger to strongest items in game. Sure, you can't buy anything better than the guy who invested his time has, but you can get whatever he has earned in game on the strength of your wallet.
Another practice that is becoming more common is where they begin to design the way to achieve specific in game items to be extremely time consuming. In turn, they put the item on the game store as well. Its designed explicitly to make you decide between spending a large amount of time in game (say, 5 hours) doing something that is generally accepted to be not fun to earn an item, or spending 1 hour at work to get the money to buy the items you need/want. The idea is to make the way to acquire them in game so time consuming that it makes more sense to spend 10 bucks than it does to spend 5+ hours grinding at it the legit way.
p4c, I like it. I also saw Damonville post in another thread p2savetime.
Like UtukuMoon above, I really couldn't care less how you choose to enjoy your experience. My concern is solely the degree to which I enjoy mine.
One fun drawback is that ^ this attitude makes you virtually immune to several types of marketing strategy.
Good. Now, if I could just find a way to make myself immune to the pet/mount-of-the-month pitches, I could probably save a fortune.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Only if the object of the game was to ______. So far, I haven't come across such an issue.
Like UtukuMoon above, I really couldn't care less how you choose to enjoy your experience. My concern is solely the degree to which I enjoy mine.
After all, MMOs are a Single Player experience.
You honestly can't enjoy playing an MMO with others without being covetous of what they have? Is it really that hard to believe someone can play with others, team with others, and work with them and not writhe in envy of what others have?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Only if the object of the game was to ______. So far, I haven't come across such an issue.
Like UtukuMoon above, I really couldn't care less how you choose to enjoy your experience. My concern is solely the degree to which I enjoy mine.
After all, MMOs are a Single Player experience.
You honestly can't enjoy playing an MMO with others without being covetous of what they have? Is it really that hard to believe someone can play with others, team with others, and work with them and not writhe in envy of what others have?
With as many posts as you have here can we assume this was a rhetorical question
I didn't read the whole thread but...if it takes someone 8 months to get anything in a current mmo, they are not the leading edge of progression and probably shouldn't be all that worried about who has what and where they got it from.
World of tanks was a good example of buying your way to the top. It didn't help you win any battles If anything it hurt you. So it sure wasn't pay to WIN there. It was pay to rush....or pay to fail.
No. Unless what you are buying is PvP related, armor/weapon/buff that gives you an advantage over another player, it isn't P2W.
The very definition came out of Korean games where you could buy items and use them against another player.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Only if the object of the game was to ______. So far, I haven't come across such an issue.
Like UtukuMoon above, I really couldn't care less how you choose to enjoy your experience. My concern is solely the degree to which I enjoy mine.
After all, MMOs are a Single Player experience.
You honestly can't enjoy playing an MMO with others without being covetous of what they have? Is it really that hard to believe someone can play with others, team with others, and work with them and not writhe in envy of what others have?
With as many posts as you have here can we assume this was a rhetorical question
I didn't read the whole thread but...if it takes someone 8 months to get anything in a current mmo, they are not the leading edge of progression and probably shouldn't be all that worried about who has what and where they got it from.
World of tanks was a good example of buying your way to the top. It didn't help you win any battles If anything it hurt you. So it sure wasn't pay to WIN there. It was pay to rush....or pay to fail.
Rhetorical babble in response to a sarcastic post? ME?!?!??!
Never.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Oh it does ^^ there are games that are gear centric, and you are going to have 0 fun if someone with relatively 0 skill and experience 3 shots you in 2 seconds because he has epic bis gear. Ofc pay to win is unhealthy and unwelcome.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I would say yes. If a player has a goal, whatever that may be, and there is a way to pay real money to obtain said goal, it is pay to win.
As of now, there are 2 ways to make headway in an MMO: 1) Time 2) Money
If 1 player has more time than another, they may get an edge. Likewise, if a player has more money than another, they may gain an advantage.
I have found that the more time I have to invest into a game, the less money I have, and vice versa
Since gaming is all about wasting time, why pay for the advancement? Would you pay someone else to see a movie for you? Read a book? Go to a sporting event? It is entertainment. If a player does not enjoy the time they put in, why even play?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Loktofeit Like UtukuMoon above, I really couldn't care less how you choose to enjoy your experience. My concern is solely the degree to which I enjoy mine.
I am generally that way, too. If your play is not affecting my play, I really do not care.
With Pay-to-Win, though, players tend to brag about how great they are by buying their way to specific goals/items. That is when I get snippy
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Depends on the player. I only bought gold for one game and it was GW2, it pretty much ruined the game for me because I was able to buy large amounts of stuff off the auction and resell it a few days later for 500% profit and was able to level 4 characters to max level with just crafting and a tad bit of questing. After I had all of the character types I enjoyed playing to max level there really wasnt much to do in the game. I still had a ton of gold left over and mats but I didnt need any of it for anything. The story was the same after I think 30 and the PvP was horrid.
I would say No to your question though, if speed in leveling is all spending cash gets you. It would be more of like P2L (Pay to level) game :P
I would say yes. If a player has a goal, whatever that may be, and there is a way to pay real money to obtain said goal, it is pay to win.
As of now, there are 2 ways to make headway in an MMO: 1) Time 2) Money
If 1 player has more time than another, they may get an edge. Likewise, if a player has more money than another, they may gain an advantage.
I have found that the more time I have to invest into a game, the less money I have, and vice versa
Since gaming is all about wasting time, why pay for the advancement? Would you pay someone else to see a movie for you? Read a book? Go to a sporting event? It is entertainment. If a player does not enjoy the time they put in, why even play?
THANK YOU for this statement. I've been trying to express why I feel the way I do when someone says "I don't have the time to... in game"
You are playing the game wasting time, but you don't have time to waste while playing?
Originally posted by Loktofeit Like UtukuMoon above, I really couldn't care less how you choose to enjoy your experience. My concern is solely the degree to which I enjoy mine.
I am generally that way, too. If your play is not affecting my play, I really do not care.
With Pay-to-Win, though, players tend to brag about how great they are by buying their way to specific goals/items. That is when I get snippy
Yeah, been there and have went off on someone before
There is the PvP or game ending win thats P2W and there is the I own the economy P2W. Other then those 2 things I dont see any problem with it. The biggest grip I find is if players are not grinding the content over time and it is a P2P game the content gets stale faster and hence the publisher may see less subs. Leading to less content leading to less fun. But if the devs found a way to funnel that cash into the games frame work the whole gold seller problem can be minor top nill...
Do we need a new term for this type of design, that seems to be becoming standard fare?
Yes. Anytime you can increase the power or advancement of your character through cash shop items is at it's foundation Pay to Win. People can debate the level of impact or amount of advantage you gain but in the end you got something by paying for it and not playing for it.
Do we need a new term for this type of design, that seems to be becoming standard fare?
Yes. Anytime you can increase the power or advancement of your character through cash shop items is at it's foundation Pay to Win. People can debate the level of impact or amount of advantage you gain but in the end you got something by paying for it and not playing for it.
Games today are made for teens with ADD and mom's credit card and Bob the Reproducer who pops out 10 kids and works 2 jobs and only has 15 minutes a night to play a mmorpg and wants to stay competitive, so they put stuff in the cash shops for him to stay level with people who play the game normally.
If I can earn a +15 Sword of Awesome (SoA) from a Dungeon, which is the best loot you can get in the game but BUY a +16 SoA from a Cash Shop which is best in slot. The game is pay to win.
If I can earn a +10 SoA from a hard dungeon, which is necessary to raid with or buy it from a cash shop - that's pay for convenience.
If I can buy a +5 SoA from a cash shop or quest then get a +10 from doing a dungeon when both are the same level item. That's pay for assistance.
If I can buy a SoA skin, that looks like a +15 SoA from the last boss of the hardest dungeon in the game, that's pay for fluff/Lies.
If I can buy an item that replaces the need for equipping any other item in that slot, until I am max level in which case it is bottom of the barrel, that is also pay for convenience.
Hope that is a simple guide to clear some things up.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
It would depend entirely on how fast the gear in the game was replaced. If it took 8 months to grind it out but by the time you got there the devs already released a new patch with better stuff then yes that would be pay to win. If it takes 8 months to do something pay players can do in 2 weeks then chances are the pay players already moved on by the time you get there. This means the game is constantly demanding huge time investment or constant stream of $$$ or you fall behind. That is pay 2 win because you can never really reach parity with the paying players.
On the other hand if was like EVE where the titan has been the best ship in the game for a decade then that is not pay to win because you can eventually catch up to the paying players and have the same stuff they do. The rich player maybe able to finance more wars more often but non-whales can still participate and compete on a fairly level playing field with the big boys.
Then there are multitudes of games between the two extremes. Currently I prefer games like Vindictus where it does take a number of months to get geared but the thing is the gear gets obsoleted very very slowly. I get long periods of time where I can compete with the whales while only spending a few bucks here and there. That is what the ideal balance is between paying and non-paying customers in F2P. The whales get geared first but at the end of the day the free players catch up and compete with them.
$50 buy a ship in EvE or spend time to get it so each time you destroy a ship you are taking away someones time or someone's money. I haven't played it and price may be different etc but from that example it's more of a pay to do it faster.
If I can earn a +15 Sword of Awesome (SoA) from a Dungeon, which is the best loot you can get in the game but BUY a +16 SoA from a Cash Shop which is best in slot. The game is pay to win.
If I can earn a +10 SoA from a hard dungeon, which is necessary to raid with or buy it from a cash shop - that's pay for convenience.
If I can buy a +5 SoA from a cash shop or quest then get a +10 from doing a dungeon when both are the same level item. That's pay for assistance.
If I can buy a SoA skin, that looks like a +15 SoA from the last boss of the hardest dungeon in the game, that's pay for fluff/Lies.
If I can buy an item that replaces the need for equipping any other item in that slot, until I am max level in which case it is bottom of the barrel, that is also pay for convenience.
Hope that is a simple guide to clear some things up.
Comments
No, I would not.
Also, I like LEGO analogy: if one want to pay for ready made rather then enjoy building - let them do it. I could not care less.
In fact it may be a good thing if it let some people to "catch up" so we can play together. Although I doubt that kind of player that would pay, would also enjoy really playing the game, but maybe some "normal" players could make a good use of such a feature.
As to play 4 convenience - as in real life: there are times when you order a pizza delivery and there are times you make it yourself and have fun doing it. Nothing wrong with that.
I agree with you. Mind you I play SWTOR but don't buy Cartel Coins , I subb and use the CC attached to my monthly subb. The only thing that really has irked me but I got over it is the fact we are all involved in such cash shop/P2W credit swapping as well it's in the system on the game now and thus anything you buy off the GTN has been tainted by the influx of real money , the economy in the game because of this fact is no longer determined by just gaming but from some peoples wallets.
Please note that goes for any game that lets you buy items ( with real money ) to sell in the game. Shame really isn't it ?
Cheers,
BadOrb.
PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]
p4c, I like it. I also saw Damonville post in another thread p2savetime.
Good. Now, if I could just find a way to make myself immune to the pet/mount-of-the-month pitches, I could probably save a fortune.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You honestly can't enjoy playing an MMO with others without being covetous of what they have? Is it really that hard to believe someone can play with others, team with others, and work with them and not writhe in envy of what others have?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
With as many posts as you have here can we assume this was a rhetorical question
I didn't read the whole thread but...if it takes someone 8 months to get anything in a current mmo, they are not the leading edge of progression and probably shouldn't be all that worried about who has what and where they got it from.
World of tanks was a good example of buying your way to the top. It didn't help you win any battles If anything it hurt you. So it sure wasn't pay to WIN there. It was pay to rush....or pay to fail.
No. Unless what you are buying is PvP related, armor/weapon/buff that gives you an advantage over another player, it isn't P2W.
The very definition came out of Korean games where you could buy items and use them against another player.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Rhetorical babble in response to a sarcastic post? ME?!?!??!
Never.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If it was a fun 8 months for me and you paid to skip it, then you just paid to lose.
If it wasn't a fun 8 months for me, then the game is bad and it doesn't matter if it's pay to win or not.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I would say yes. If a player has a goal, whatever that may be, and there is a way to pay real money to obtain said goal, it is pay to win.
As of now, there are 2 ways to make headway in an MMO:
1) Time
2) Money
If 1 player has more time than another, they may get an edge. Likewise, if a player has more money than another, they may gain an advantage.
I have found that the more time I have to invest into a game, the less money I have, and vice versa
Since gaming is all about wasting time, why pay for the advancement? Would you pay someone else to see a movie for you? Read a book? Go to a sporting event? It is entertainment. If a player does not enjoy the time they put in, why even play?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
With Pay-to-Win, though, players tend to brag about how great they are by buying their way to specific goals/items. That is when I get snippy
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Depends on the player. I only bought gold for one game and it was GW2, it pretty much ruined the game for me because I was able to buy large amounts of stuff off the auction and resell it a few days later for 500% profit and was able to level 4 characters to max level with just crafting and a tad bit of questing. After I had all of the character types I enjoyed playing to max level there really wasnt much to do in the game. I still had a ton of gold left over and mats but I didnt need any of it for anything. The story was the same after I think 30 and the PvP was horrid.
I would say No to your question though, if speed in leveling is all spending cash gets you. It would be more of like P2L (Pay to level) game :P
THANK YOU for this statement. I've been trying to express why I feel the way I do when someone says "I don't have the time to... in game"
You are playing the game wasting time, but you don't have time to waste while playing?
Yeah, been there and have went off on someone before
Yes. Anytime you can increase the power or advancement of your character through cash shop items is at it's foundation Pay to Win. People can debate the level of impact or amount of advantage you gain but in the end you got something by paying for it and not playing for it.
Games today are made for teens with ADD and mom's credit card and Bob the Reproducer who pops out 10 kids and works 2 jobs and only has 15 minutes a night to play a mmorpg and wants to stay competitive, so they put stuff in the cash shops for him to stay level with people who play the game normally.
If I can earn a +15 Sword of Awesome (SoA) from a Dungeon, which is the best loot you can get in the game but BUY a +16 SoA from a Cash Shop which is best in slot. The game is pay to win.
If I can earn a +10 SoA from a hard dungeon, which is necessary to raid with or buy it from a cash shop - that's pay for convenience.
If I can buy a +5 SoA from a cash shop or quest then get a +10 from doing a dungeon when both are the same level item. That's pay for assistance.
If I can buy a SoA skin, that looks like a +15 SoA from the last boss of the hardest dungeon in the game, that's pay for fluff/Lies.
If I can buy an item that replaces the need for equipping any other item in that slot, until I am max level in which case it is bottom of the barrel, that is also pay for convenience.
Hope that is a simple guide to clear some things up.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
Perhaps "pay to not play" would be a better term?
( my attutide is "why woud I pay money to not play the game when I could just uninstall it and not have to pay anything?" )
It would depend entirely on how fast the gear in the game was replaced. If it took 8 months to grind it out but by the time you got there the devs already released a new patch with better stuff then yes that would be pay to win. If it takes 8 months to do something pay players can do in 2 weeks then chances are the pay players already moved on by the time you get there. This means the game is constantly demanding huge time investment or constant stream of $$$ or you fall behind. That is pay 2 win because you can never really reach parity with the paying players.
On the other hand if was like EVE where the titan has been the best ship in the game for a decade then that is not pay to win because you can eventually catch up to the paying players and have the same stuff they do. The rich player maybe able to finance more wars more often but non-whales can still participate and compete on a fairly level playing field with the big boys.
Then there are multitudes of games between the two extremes. Currently I prefer games like Vindictus where it does take a number of months to get geared but the thing is the gear gets obsoleted very very slowly. I get long periods of time where I can compete with the whales while only spending a few bucks here and there. That is what the ideal balance is between paying and non-paying customers in F2P. The whales get geared first but at the end of the day the free players catch up and compete with them.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
that sums it all up pretty well.