With Pay-to-Win, though, players tend to brag about how great they are by buying their way to specific goals/items. That is when I get snippy
I don't believe I have ever seen that happen. I'm not saying that it doesn't, mind you, just that I evidently have been fortunate enough to have never seen a single person do that in any F2P MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by maplestone Perhaps "pay to not play" would be a better term? ( my attutide is "why woud I pay money to not play the game when I could just uninstall it and not have to pay anything?" )
Why come here with reason and logic? It upsets the status quo
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by AlBQuirky With Pay-to-Win, though, players tend to brag about how great they are by buying their way to specific goals/items. That is when I get snippy
I don't believe I have ever seen that happen. I'm not saying that it doesn't, mind you, just that I evidently have been fortunate enough to have never seen a single person do that in any F2P MMO.
It does not happen often and more than likely in a PvP scenario. But you know my thoughts on PvP
To be honest, it is difficult for me to think of P2W in a PvE sense. There really is not much to "win at" in that environment, for me. PvP is where there are winners and losers.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Only if the object of the game was to ______. So far, I haven't come across such an issue.
Like UtukuMoon above, I really couldn't care less how you choose to enjoy your experience. My concern is solely the degree to which I enjoy mine.
After all, MMOs are a Single Player experience.
You honestly can't enjoy playing an MMO with others without being covetous of what they have? Is it really that hard to believe someone can play with others, team with others, and work with them and not writhe in envy of what others have?
It's not about that, but in all honesty I can understand your take here in a genre that's all about the lowest common denominator.
No, what it's about is these games being "massively multiplayer". In other words, all the gamers supposedly being in one world together. That brings with it a social aspect different from envy. Call it what you want, or consider it many things, it's a social aspect if human nature. "Competition", "fairness", whatever tags one might want to put on it, it's there in our subconscious.
If it took me 8 months to get bored with the game and it only took you 2 weeks then I guess you "Won" in a way. Not that I'd pay for your victory in the race to boredom.
If you're going to call "real money for in game gold" pay 2 win then all games with gold sellers are p2w. All games with cash shops and auction houses are also p2w. It doesn't make much sense without a proper definition of winning.
Add in open world PvP and unfair advantages in the cash shop and you're in P2W territory.
If it took me 8 months to get bored with the game and it only took you 2 weeks then I guess you "Won" in a way. Not that I'd pay for your victory in the race to boredom.
If you're going to call "real money for in game gold" pay 2 win then all games with gold sellers are p2w. All games with cash shops and auction houses are also p2w. It doesn't make much sense without a proper definition of winning.
Add in open world PvP and unfair advantages in the cash shop and you're in P2W territory.
Oh, I see the logic, people murder others in real life, so that means murder is legal, since it happens!
People selling gold is against the rules, and can get you banned, and when that is not a f2p game, and has a good trial system to where you cannot make those transactions, a banned account means money gone...So nice try. In a f2p, you lose an account on a seller, you make a new one for free, so who cares.
In my opinion, anything that gives an unfair advantage whether it is time, special items, or abilities is P2W. Selling time is Pay to win whether it is 1 day, 1 month or 1 year. Personally I dislike any game with a cash shop, but if the game itself is good enough I am willing to forego that in favor of a unique and deep game.
What you describe is called "Pay To Win Soonertm".
In PVE games, such a system can actually be helpful. If you start a game late, you can catch up to your friends quickly. Personally, I couldn't care less if player-X payed for his gear or not.
In PVP games, it's problematic. The advantage you gain can be used to maintain your advantage, thus throwing the system out of whack. It all depends on the MMO however. The problem is, most PVP based MMOs are notoriously unbalanced and have terrible ranking systems. Being thrown into the ring with some Credit Card warrior is a frustrating experience to say the least.
Overall, I've found that most F2P games (or those with a virtual shop) tend to force you into uncomfortable situations that urge you to spend money. I don't find such situations enjoyable, period.
Originally posted by FrodoFragins There's definitely a threshold where it becomes P2W. I'd have to experience it to really decide.
If the goal in question is neither an objective of the game nor a deciding factor in competition, do you still feel such a threshold exists?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by FrodoFragins There's definitely a threshold where it becomes P2W. I'd have to experience it to really decide.
If the goal in question is neither an objective of the game nor a deciding factor in competition, do you still feel such a threshold exists?
Everyone has their own objectives. I'm definitely not on the side that says if you can earn it in game then its not P2W.
Marvel Heroes is an example. I wouldn't call it P2W, but it's pay to look better or pay to unlock all the heroes and that becomes a turnoff. I'm simply not a fan of micro-transactions. I thought LoL was fun but I hate their model.
GW2 wasn't P2W, but it was so easy to get very good gear with in game currency and it killed the replayability for me.
Is this fair then? We both spent our time, you probably having a lot more fun than me, we both got the same item?
--------------------
Ok now...you raid for an hour and get (item A)
I work for an hour and make $40.
You have your (Item A) after an hour of work.
I have (Item A, B, C, and D) after an hour of work because I spent my $40 to buy them.
--------------------
Still fair?
I am not saying it is or it isn't, but just something to think about!
One person is working a job for an hour for (ITEM A)
One person is "having fun" playing the game for an hour for (ITEM A).
BUT, in the second scenario, guy who works for an hour makes so much money that he can buy (ITEM A, B, C, D).
Should we complain that he makes too much money therefor can spend more on the game and that isn't fair?
Or...probably the most obvious choice, that it is just unfair that anyone works instead of plays a game and instead buys the gear instead of "working" for it. (see the funny I did there?)
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
There is no free lunch. People need to realize that they're getting taken for a ride with F2P games. It really only benefits the people that cannot afford to buy games at all. It costs more for those of us who can afford a sub and
it might cost less for someone who can't afford a sub but they never get to have everything the next guy has, even if they work their ass off. It's almost like insult to injury against players who CAN'T afford a sub. At least before, those people who scraped together their 15 bucks a month could be just as good as everyone else... it was just a matter of how much time they spent in game.
People get sold sh!t everyday and told it's shinola.. they think they're getting a good deal, while in the long run, it's not a good deal at ALL.
There is no free lunch. People need to realize that they're getting taken for a ride with F2P games. It really only benefits the people that cannot afford to buy games at all. It costs more for those of us who can afford a sub
Absolutely.
F2P is almost always a crappy scam. Lots of people talk about the shock in discovering exactly how much money they've spent on a F2P game when they add it up. Devs use F2P as an excuse for delivering less content, yet pray that players won't pay attention to how much they actually spend.
F2P is here to stay sadly. But luckily there are enough good games that don't use that model to reward with our cash.
Originally posted by FrodoFragins There's definitely a threshold where it becomes P2W. I'd have to experience it to really decide.
If the goal in question is neither an objective of the game nor a deciding factor in competition, do you still feel such a threshold exists?
As someone who's played and watches sports even just paying to speed up things rubs me a bit the wrong way. I don't mind paying the same entry fee for the same chance. But once you start being able to bid for advantages its a big turn off to my competitive edge.
Do we need a new term for this type of design, that seems to be becoming standard fare?
There's enough terms already. Everything has a label. I honestly don't care what anyone else does when they play a game. As long as it doesn't negatively impact my own experience, they can go about their business and play as they please.
Originally posted by FrodoFragins There's definitely a threshold where it becomes P2W. I'd have to experience it to really decide.
If the goal in question is neither an objective of the game nor a deciding factor in competition, do you still feel such a threshold exists?
As someone who's played and watches sports even just paying to speed up things rubs me a bit the wrong way. I don't mind paying the same entry fee for the same chance. But once you start being able to bid for advantages its a big turn off to my competitive edge.
However, we aren't talking about sports and, in most cases, there isn't even player vs player competition involved, let alone a win condition. Outside of envy, that is.
The absurd part of this discussion is that so many of you will on one hand complain that everyone gets everything in MMOs - that they're made so that everyone is a hero. On the other hand, you complain about everything under the sun being pay to win, despite your other argument that everyone ends up with exactly the same thing at the end. So if getting to the end is the path where you see money giving an unfair advantage, you're essentially arguing that level-based MMOs are inherently broken, as anyone that didn't start on Day One has already lost or is already at a disadvantage.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hehe, yeah I have nothing against people that pay money to save time, I'd do the quest for the fun of it and for the dialogue/lore. Sure, if people want to pay money and skip out on the story that is their choice, why would I care? I don't play for elitism or to show off social status achievements to others, its fun to just go slowly at my own pace and not zerg rush like the crowd.
Let them go ahead and buy all the stuff they want, I'd always choose the free in-game quest way to achieve anything... I'd grind points on DDO and Lord of the rings online instead of buying them. Give me grinds in game to do and not cash shops anyday!
If people realized that old subscription design was grindfests, they'd realize that cash shops are the lesser evil. We truly are blessed that now we have a choice, because before it was grind or never have it.
Comments
I don't believe I have ever seen that happen. I'm not saying that it doesn't, mind you, just that I evidently have been fortunate enough to have never seen a single person do that in any F2P MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
To be honest, it is difficult for me to think of P2W in a PvE sense. There really is not much to "win at" in that environment, for me. PvP is where there are winners and losers.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The blanks can be many things.
It could be:
- Level
- Get a legendary item
- Get rich
- Get a flying mount
- Get a new powerful skill
Just to name a few. Don't be so narrow minded.
It's not about that, but in all honesty I can understand your take here in a genre that's all about the lowest common denominator.
No, what it's about is these games being "massively multiplayer". In other words, all the gamers supposedly being in one world together. That brings with it a social aspect different from envy. Call it what you want, or consider it many things, it's a social aspect if human nature. "Competition", "fairness", whatever tags one might want to put on it, it's there in our subconscious.
Once upon a time....
If it took me 8 months to get bored with the game and it only took you 2 weeks then I guess you "Won" in a way. Not that I'd pay for your victory in the race to boredom.
If you're going to call "real money for in game gold" pay 2 win then all games with gold sellers are p2w. All games with cash shops and auction houses are also p2w. It doesn't make much sense without a proper definition of winning.
Add in open world PvP and unfair advantages in the cash shop and you're in P2W territory.
Oh, I see the logic, people murder others in real life, so that means murder is legal, since it happens!
People selling gold is against the rules, and can get you banned, and when that is not a f2p game, and has a good trial system to where you cannot make those transactions, a banned account means money gone...So nice try. In a f2p, you lose an account on a seller, you make a new one for free, so who cares.
MurderHerd
What you describe is called "Pay To Win Soonertm".
In PVE games, such a system can actually be helpful. If you start a game late, you can catch up to your friends quickly. Personally, I couldn't care less if player-X payed for his gear or not.
In PVP games, it's problematic. The advantage you gain can be used to maintain your advantage, thus throwing the system out of whack. It all depends on the MMO however. The problem is, most PVP based MMOs are notoriously unbalanced and have terrible ranking systems. Being thrown into the ring with some Credit Card warrior is a frustrating experience to say the least.
Overall, I've found that most F2P games (or those with a virtual shop) tend to force you into uncomfortable situations that urge you to spend money. I don't find such situations enjoyable, period.
If the goal in question is neither an objective of the game nor a deciding factor in competition, do you still feel such a threshold exists?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Everyone has their own objectives. I'm definitely not on the side that says if you can earn it in game then its not P2W.
Marvel Heroes is an example. I wouldn't call it P2W, but it's pay to look better or pay to unlock all the heroes and that becomes a turnoff. I'm simply not a fan of micro-transactions. I thought LoL was fun but I hate their model.
GW2 wasn't P2W, but it was so easy to get very good gear with in game currency and it killed the replayability for me.
Just a scenario or two
----------------------
I work for an hour and make $10.
You raid for an hour and get (ITEM A)
I use my $10 to buy (ITEM A)
Is this fair then? We both spent our time, you probably having a lot more fun than me, we both got the same item?
--------------------
Ok now...you raid for an hour and get (item A)
I work for an hour and make $40.
You have your (Item A) after an hour of work.
I have (Item A, B, C, and D) after an hour of work because I spent my $40 to buy them.
--------------------
Still fair?
I am not saying it is or it isn't, but just something to think about!
One person is working a job for an hour for (ITEM A)
One person is "having fun" playing the game for an hour for (ITEM A).
BUT, in the second scenario, guy who works for an hour makes so much money that he can buy (ITEM A, B, C, D).
Should we complain that he makes too much money therefor can spend more on the game and that isn't fair?
Or...probably the most obvious choice, that it is just unfair that anyone works instead of plays a game and instead buys the gear instead of "working" for it. (see the funny I did there?)
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
Let's say it cost some old geezer $1 million to get a supermodel to marry him, that's P2W isn't it?
One of the many reasons I like a sub based game.
There is no free lunch. People need to realize that they're getting taken for a ride with F2P games. It really only benefits the people that cannot afford to buy games at all. It costs more for those of us who can afford a sub and
it might cost less for someone who can't afford a sub but they never get to have everything the next guy has, even if they work their ass off. It's almost like insult to injury against players who CAN'T afford a sub. At least before, those people who scraped together their 15 bucks a month could be just as good as everyone else... it was just a matter of how much time they spent in game.
People get sold sh!t everyday and told it's shinola.. they think they're getting a good deal, while in the long run, it's not a good deal at ALL.
No bitchers.
Absolutely.
F2P is almost always a crappy scam. Lots of people talk about the shock in discovering exactly how much money they've spent on a F2P game when they add it up. Devs use F2P as an excuse for delivering less content, yet pray that players won't pay attention to how much they actually spend.
F2P is here to stay sadly. But luckily there are enough good games that don't use that model to reward with our cash.
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As someone who's played and watches sports even just paying to speed up things rubs me a bit the wrong way. I don't mind paying the same entry fee for the same chance. But once you start being able to bid for advantages its a big turn off to my competitive edge.
There's enough terms already. Everything has a label. I honestly don't care what anyone else does when they play a game. As long as it doesn't negatively impact my own experience, they can go about their business and play as they please.
However, we aren't talking about sports and, in most cases, there isn't even player vs player competition involved, let alone a win condition. Outside of envy, that is.
The absurd part of this discussion is that so many of you will on one hand complain that everyone gets everything in MMOs - that they're made so that everyone is a hero. On the other hand, you complain about everything under the sun being pay to win, despite your other argument that everyone ends up with exactly the same thing at the end. So if getting to the end is the path where you see money giving an unfair advantage, you're essentially arguing that level-based MMOs are inherently broken, as anyone that didn't start on Day One has already lost or is already at a disadvantage.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hehe, yeah I have nothing against people that pay money to save time, I'd do the quest for the fun of it and for the dialogue/lore. Sure, if people want to pay money and skip out on the story that is their choice, why would I care? I don't play for elitism or to show off social status achievements to others, its fun to just go slowly at my own pace and not zerg rush like the crowd.
Let them go ahead and buy all the stuff they want, I'd always choose the free in-game quest way to achieve anything... I'd grind points on DDO and Lord of the rings online instead of buying them. Give me grinds in game to do and not cash shops anyday!
If people realized that old subscription design was grindfests, they'd realize that cash shops are the lesser evil. We truly are blessed that now we have a choice, because before it was grind or never have it.