Originally posted by Boneserino Refinement: the process of removing impurities or unwanted elements from a substance.
Thats one definition, that generally refers to removing things that are unwanted.
So the refining of MMO's should be a good thing according to that definiton.
Now here is the problem.
No one in the community can decide on what those unwanted elements are.
Hence you get a mishmash of substances that no one really wants or a substance that might appeal to some but not others.
The only sure thing is that MMO's will probably continue to be refined until..... finally someone discovers that substance we have all been looking for!
--mmorpginium!--
The definition is fine but your conclusion is incorrect. Take the music industry as an example. A lot of bands release their first album and they are very raw and unrefined. A lot of times these are the best albums they ever release. As their music gets more refined and goes through more and more production it ends up sounding more like everything else that is out there and tends to lose a lot of the raw emotion that made them popular in the first place. By the 3rd or 4th album most musicians are too refined and their songs aren't as good.
A lot of MMORPG seem to refine theymselves by making them more like everything else out there and that is not a good thing at all.
Yea, you are absolutely right Ender.
But the raw sound tends to appeal to that smaller crowd that likes it loud and raucous. If you are going to appeal to the mainstream music fan, you are going to have to make it more appealing.
But the edgy stuff is what pushes limits and sometimes change for the better. I guess that's what MMO's need too.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
It tends to happen in RPG series. Making things more "refined" at the cost it seems of the soul of the game. It seems like an impossible task at times. Your like yeah I can see why they don't want a bunch of useless skills but at the cost having real choice in your characters direction seems to happen.
In MMO's its more streamlined ways to progress because the treadmill of leveling has been beating to death and players get bored, especially after the first time through.
How did refinement work for Bethesda? You liked Skyrim, didn't you?
Yes I liked Skyrim. But i think it lost its soul in many ways. Less dialog, factions/guilds meaning less, less skills/enchantments/spells. The story didn't really change much based on what you did nor did the world react much. But there was still considerable gaming to be done and combat was generallly better.
Another example is the Bioshock series. A lot of streamlining has taken place over those 3 games and while Infinite is gorgeous aesthetically and has a compelling story, it's definitely suffering from the same "loss of soul" that you're talking about. Same with the resident evil series.
I find the terminology used to be interesting. I tend to consider the grind in "old school" MMORPGs to be "soul crushing" so for me it is the older MMORPGs that have "lost their soul". The newer, more refined games are actually "soul restoring".
Originally posted by Holophonist Originally posted by Vermillion_RaventhaldOriginally posted by QuirhidOriginally posted by Vermillion_RaventhalOriginally posted by Loktofeit
It tends to happen in RPG series. Making things more "refined" at the cost it seems of the soul of the game. It seems like an impossible task at times. Your like yeah I can see why they don't want a bunch of useless skills but at the cost having real choice in your characters direction seems to happen. In MMO's its more streamlined ways to progress because the treadmill of leveling has been beating to death and players get bored, especially after the first time through.How did refinement work for Bethesda? You liked Skyrim, didn't you?Yes I liked Skyrim. But i think it lost its soul in many ways. Less dialog, factions/guilds meaning less, less skills/enchantments/spells. The story didn't really change much based on what you did nor did the world react much. But there was still considerable gaming to be done and combat was generallly better.Another example is the Bioshock series. A lot of streamlining has taken place over those 3 games and while Infinite is gorgeous aesthetically and has a compelling story, it's definitely suffering from the same "loss of soul" that you're talking about. Same with the resident evil series.
How has Bioshock Infinite "lost its soul" compared to Bioshock? Both games are a more or less on rails shooter, with a story.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I can almost imagine future games where we passively watch our character autonomously working its way through levels.
Carnage Heart was exactly that and was on the first Playstation almost 20 years ago. Good game too for those who have a knack for flowcharts or basic logic behind programming.
I can almost imagine future games where we passively watch our character autonomously working its way through levels.
Most mobile games available on Android/iOS are already like that. You can experience the future of gaming for yourself if you download one of the many Free to Play titles available for mobile devices. They're mostly nothing but automation and Pay to Win mechanics.
Anyway, you make a good point but modern games aren't all bad. Some generic games by major publishers are what you described but many aren't that way.
I can almost imagine future games where we passively watch our character autonomously working its way through levels.
Gaute Godager:
sometimes it's great to just have a great steak and a glass of good wine.
can't wait for this game. You build and the character reacts based on what you build.
Have you tried ProgressQuest?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It tends to happen in RPG series. Making things more "refined" at the cost it seems of the soul of the game. It seems like an impossible task at times. Your like yeah I can see why they don't want a bunch of useless skills but at the cost having real choice in your characters direction seems to happen. In MMO's its more streamlined ways to progress because the treadmill of leveling has been beating to death and players get bored, especially after the first time through.
How did refinement work for Bethesda? You liked Skyrim, didn't you?
Yes I liked Skyrim. But i think it lost its soul in many ways. Less dialog, factions/guilds meaning less, less skills/enchantments/spells. The story didn't really change much based on what you did nor did the world react much. But there was still considerable gaming to be done and combat was generallly better.
Another example is the Bioshock series. A lot of streamlining has taken place over those 3 games and while Infinite is gorgeous aesthetically and has a compelling story, it's definitely suffering from the same "loss of soul" that you're talking about. Same with the resident evil series.
How has Bioshock Infinite "lost its soul" compared to Bioshock? Both games are a more or less on rails shooter, with a story.
Yeah, that comparison surprised me a little. Bioshock has changed very little aside from the milieu.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 Refinement is a good thing, but refinement is not what's happening to modern day MMOs. What's happening to the modern MMO is simplification.
Yup thats it exactly. Now some of that simplification could be considering refinement if you consider corpse runs a waste of time.
If you like corpse runs, then it is oversimplification.
There is the refinement side/ Casual and there is the oversimplification side/ Hardcore.
And never the two shall meet.
EVE Online, there. they have met.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
It tends to happen in RPG series. Making things more "refined" at the cost it seems of the soul of the game. It seems like an impossible task at times. Your like yeah I can see why they don't want a bunch of useless skills but at the cost having real choice in your characters direction seems to happen. In MMO's its more streamlined ways to progress because the treadmill of leveling has been beating to death and players get bored, especially after the first time through.
How did refinement work for Bethesda? You liked Skyrim, didn't you?
Yes I liked Skyrim. But i think it lost its soul in many ways. Less dialog, factions/guilds meaning less, less skills/enchantments/spells. The story didn't really change much based on what you did nor did the world react much. But there was still considerable gaming to be done and combat was generallly better.
Another example is the Bioshock series. A lot of streamlining has taken place over those 3 games and while Infinite is gorgeous aesthetically and has a compelling story, it's definitely suffering from the same "loss of soul" that you're talking about. Same with the resident evil series.
How has Bioshock Infinite "lost its soul" compared to Bioshock? Both games are a more or less on rails shooter, with a story.
Yeah, that comparison surprised me a little. Bioshock has changed very little aside from the milieu.
I'd agree, I personally find Bioshock Infinite (and Skyrim) bad examples. I think both are solid sequels with (for what they are) quite a lot of depth and breadth.
For me, DA2 or ME3 are versions of their predecessor's which have been streamlined and in the process lost a lot of their playabilitiy. Fable 3 is a game that tore up everything that made the second fun in refining gameplay. I would also add GW2 to that list. They all have that feeling that the developers were so busy trying to cut out any sort of grind or wasted time that they forgot that stopping and smelling the roses is often an important part of any experience (or a sense of the unknown and of discovery).
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind an easymode game, if people want a game they can play very casually then great. Taking my earlier example, if someone were to invent an mmo where characters were entirely autonomous (except maybe skill training) then great, you can do the ironing while playing. It is just that I don't think this is often the intention- I think that in slavishly trimming fat a lot of developers have thrown away good meat.
Comments
Yea, you are absolutely right Ender.
But the raw sound tends to appeal to that smaller crowd that likes it loud and raucous. If you are going to appeal to the mainstream music fan, you are going to have to make it more appealing.
But the edgy stuff is what pushes limits and sometimes change for the better. I guess that's what MMO's need too.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I find the terminology used to be interesting. I tend to consider the grind in "old school" MMORPGs to be "soul crushing" so for me it is the older MMORPGs that have "lost their soul". The newer, more refined games are actually "soul restoring".
How did refinement work for Bethesda? You liked Skyrim, didn't you?
Yes I liked Skyrim. But i think it lost its soul in many ways. Less dialog, factions/guilds meaning less, less skills/enchantments/spells. The story didn't really change much based on what you did nor did the world react much. But there was still considerable gaming to be done and combat was generallly better.
Another example is the Bioshock series. A lot of streamlining has taken place over those 3 games and while Infinite is gorgeous aesthetically and has a compelling story, it's definitely suffering from the same "loss of soul" that you're talking about. Same with the resident evil series.
How has Bioshock Infinite "lost its soul" compared to Bioshock? Both games are a more or less on rails shooter, with a story.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I wouldn't call it refinement. They are adapting to a changing mass market and trying to grow said market even further.
If catering to the lowest common denominator is what brings in a bit more cash, then that's what a business will do.
Games are made to appeal to the people most likely to purchase and play them. Welcome to the real world.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Well, they tend to buy them, with playing its an other story...
Flame on!
Anyone who buys a game without the intention to play it is an idiot.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
can't wait for this game. You build and the character reacts based on what you build.
Carnage Heart was exactly that and was on the first Playstation almost 20 years ago. Good game too for those who have a knack for flowcharts or basic logic behind programming.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Most mobile games available on Android/iOS are already like that. You can experience the future of gaming for yourself if you download one of the many Free to Play titles available for mobile devices. They're mostly nothing but automation and Pay to Win mechanics.
Anyway, you make a good point but modern games aren't all bad. Some generic games by major publishers are what you described but many aren't that way.
In the end good or bad doesn't matter. What matter is how much profit it generates, just like in any other business.
You could argue "good" should generate more profit, but that's not how the mass market works. See the music charts or some blockbuster movies.
Targeting the widest possible target audience is what wins the day, not making a great work of art for a niche group of enthusiasts.
Have you tried ProgressQuest?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yeah, that comparison surprised me a little. Bioshock has changed very little aside from the milieu.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
EVE Online, there. they have met.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I'd agree, I personally find Bioshock Infinite (and Skyrim) bad examples. I think both are solid sequels with (for what they are) quite a lot of depth and breadth.
For me, DA2 or ME3 are versions of their predecessor's which have been streamlined and in the process lost a lot of their playabilitiy. Fable 3 is a game that tore up everything that made the second fun in refining gameplay. I would also add GW2 to that list. They all have that feeling that the developers were so busy trying to cut out any sort of grind or wasted time that they forgot that stopping and smelling the roses is often an important part of any experience (or a sense of the unknown and of discovery).
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind an easymode game, if people want a game they can play very casually then great. Taking my earlier example, if someone were to invent an mmo where characters were entirely autonomous (except maybe skill training) then great, you can do the ironing while playing. It is just that I don't think this is often the intention- I think that in slavishly trimming fat a lot of developers have thrown away good meat.