Lastly, I do think there's at least one more significant contributor to players' contemporary "gogogo" dungeon mentality, and that is that players are simply more experienced today. Back in 2004, while there were certainly UO, EQ and AC veterans, there was a huge slew of brand new players being introduced to the genre. As a result, everyone was more patient because everyone was learning together. Nowadays, 90% of players in any given game have been around the MMO block, multiple times. If you've played a dungeon in WoW or Rift or SW:ToR, you've played a dungeon in Aion or GW2 or FFXIV. It's the same routine, and players carry their experience and expectations over from game to game. The entire dungeon running MMO community now expects the WotlK tank and spank speed run style.
I disagree with your point here. That back in 2004 people were more patient because most of us were new to the genre and were learning together. People were still short with you if you fucked up. In raids, it wasn't as bad because 40man raids really only took like 18 competent people, the rest could be trash really. And dungeon wise, i remember lots of fights breaking out over people breaking eggs in UBRS.
The problem lies outside of gaming. People have changed. The newer generation are in the "access now" generation. So games had to change accordingly. More and more you see people with the mentality that they should get something without paying or doing any amount of work for it else they'll move on elsewhere for that quick-fix.
I don't even think it is entirely that people have changed(even though that is part of it). When dungeons and raids were implemented they were not designed as a "for everybody" feature. Back in vanilla and BC the people doing heroics were a minority, the people doing raids were vastly fewer than even that number.
It isn't that the people themselves have changed so much as the intended audience has changed. The main problem being is that the people that enjoy group content and challenging content were initially the intended audience and the content was a good fit for them. Now that the content has been pushed out to the masses and the "intended audience" has been opened up it no longer is a good fit for the original fans of the content, and many of the design principles of heroics/raids are at odds with what the new "intended audience" want out of the game. So instead of a somewhat niche form of content enjoyed by the few players who do it, we have content targeted at everyone that almost noone enjoys because it fails to meet the needs of both the solo type player just trying to get some progression and the needs of the player who wants challenging group content.
Lastly, I do think there's at least one more significant contributor to players' contemporary "gogogo" dungeon mentality, and that is that players are simply more experienced today. Back in 2004, while there were certainly UO, EQ and AC veterans, there was a huge slew of brand new players being introduced to the genre. As a result, everyone was more patient because everyone was learning together. Nowadays, 90% of players in any given game have been around the MMO block, multiple times. If you've played a dungeon in WoW or Rift or SW:ToR, you've played a dungeon in Aion or GW2 or FFXIV. It's the same routine, and players carry their experience and expectations over from game to game. The entire dungeon running MMO community now expects the WotlK tank and spank speed run style.
I disagree with your point here. That back in 2004 people were more patient because most of us were new to the genre and were learning together. People were still short with you if you fucked up. In raids, it wasn't as bad because 40man raids really only took like 18 competent people, the rest could be trash really. And dungeon wise, i remember lots of fights breaking out over people breaking eggs in UBRS.
The problem lies outside of gaming. People have changed. The newer generation are in the "access now" generation. So games had to change accordingly. More and more you see people with the mentality that they should get something without paying or doing any amount of work for it else they'll move on elsewhere for that quick-fix.
I'm not saying it didn't happen. There will always be exceptions. And there were MMO veterans then too coming from other games who may have been less inclined to have patience with the newer WoW kiddies. There always has and always will be drama when players get together in groups of any size. I still feel players were generally move patient, or at least cooperative, back then, but maybe that's just because I was a blissfully ignorant noob at the time myself. Even though I did start with FFXI a year before WoW came out, most of WoW's systems, including dungeon runs and raiding, were brand new to me. I'm sure I fucked up more than my fair share of times, but I don't ever recall people being especially short tempered with me. But again, we're both just speaking in generalizations based on our own subjective experiences.
I definitely don't think this reason is THE primary reason players have less patience today. I think both OPs hit many of the factors on the nose. But I do still think this is A contributing factor to why players seem to behave differently in dungeons today.
As for your generational hypothesis, I usually tend to exercise caution about making such assertions, as every generation seems to make such assertions about the next. I'll agree with the quick access assessment, as well as the general statement that "players have changed", at least somewhat, but I wouldn't be so quick to just chock it up to some mystical new generation. A lot of them are the same exact players who played back in 2004. Yes, they've changed. But why have they changed? That's exactly the question we're trying to answer. The OPs discuss the dungeon finder as a part-culprit. I suggest dungeon and combat design are contributing factors, as well as an inflated ego among the increasingly experienced player population. I think your idea that players expect quicker rewards is also a sound idea, just not because of a generational shift. I think developers are designing games that have conditioned players to expect instant gratification. It's a two way street, of course, but that deserves a whole discussion of its own.
It is like looking for a server to play a fps,you are not playing a MMORPG in that manner.This is the huge problem with game design,they are more like tools and linear treadmills than anything resembling a role playing experience.A game should be YOUR game,you are the role player moving about a world,it should not be tools looking for a dungeon or following yellow question marks around a map.I have no idea where these two ridiculous rpg concepts originated but they make no sense.
I look for arena maps and servers to play unreal on,i am not about to pretend i am playing a MMO in that manner.There are a lot of players it seems that just want to hangout in an area that is constant looting,they really want no part of a role playing experience,just looting.We should also not be calling them dungeons ,more like small zones to loot because a dungeon would be open to everyone in game NOT an instance.Instances are just super easy content for a developer to play and warping players to and from is again super easy and lazy,it plays no purpose in a role playing experience.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Wizardry A game should be MY game,you are the role player moving about a world,it should not be tools looking for a dungeon or following yellow question marks around a map.
Originally posted by scritty Why aren't more people doing end game with guild buddies?
Who cares? Irrelevant question.
The important is, there is a choice. As usual tho, there are people who want to take away your way of playing, you have to play it THEIR way as it is the only way the game should be played...
Originally posted by Wizardry .We should also not be calling them dungeons ,more like small zones to loot because a dungeon would be open to everyone in game NOT an instance.Instances are just super easy content for a developer to play and warping players to and from is again super easy and lazy,it plays no purpose in a role playing experience.
2 points i wanna make to what you said here.
1. there's a reason instances became a thing. the amount of mmo players has increased exponentially since the time when dungeon's were open world. You just cannot have open world dungeons without running into way to many problems such as over population of a dungeon, camping to a ruthless degree, and lets not get started on if the game has open world pvp(though i don't deny this would definitely PROMOTE world pvp which isn't a bad thing in itself). but the main problem with open world dungeons is overpopulation.
2. about 'instances' being super easy content. yea, today it is. but go back in time in vanilla wow/BC, dungeons were NOT super easy i assure you that. you actually had to use tactics and have your dps use their CC abilities because the tank didn't just run through pull half the room and aoe tank while out dpsing the dps like it is nowadays. So dungeons being 'super easy' is not because of instances, its because....of another problem entirely.
There is nothing wrong with the tool itself, the problem with WoW was that they made dungeon finder groups (and LFR groups) far too easy. When there is no challenge, there is no need to communicate.
If you had a decent working LFG tool in EQ2 you would still see people chatting because you need to talk about strategies in dungeons. I know EQ2 has a LFG tool, but its a joke and no one uses it.
I really dislike games which deliberately exclude LFG tools, it just inundates chat with LFG spam which makes actual chat difficult. I don't consider - 'LFM for Stormhold - Need healer!' repeated for 15 minutes to be social., its just like looking at my spam folder in my email inbox.
It can also get rid of those awkward conversations where you have to explain to someone that their level 30 gear isn't quite going to cut it in that difficult level 80 dungeon, by filtering out players who fall below the gear levels (only for LFG, if you want to try do it with less gear manually then go for it).
Another mistake WoW made was making the benefits of going with a random group better than going with friends. There should be no benefit to doing it with randoms, it should just be a tool, nothing more.
So the reason for all the hating on Dungeon finder is that the people who use it are plain bad player or their behavior is bad or they are not social? in that case the world we live in should be destroyed immediately because you know there are bad people everywhere, there are unsocial people like me too. You can't blame a tool for how it is being used, blame the user. Summary of this column : "most of the mmo players these days are either bad players or unsocial or have very bad character."
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Originally posted by evilastroIf you had a decent working LFG tool in EQ2 you would still see people chatting because you need to talk about strategies in dungeons.
How does LFG tool make people not talk about dungeon tactics? How those 2 elemets even relate to each other?
If you insist on creating Instanced Dungeons then Group and Dungeon Finders are essential for non-sociable gamers like myself. Nothing worse then standing around town spamming LFG every 30 seconds. If on the other hand there were no Instanced Dungeons then I do not support LFG or Dungeons Finders since the hard part is all ready out of the way.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
In answer to the column question, "when was the last time you made a friend running a PUG?", this past weekend for me.
In fact, 10 members of my FC in FFXIV are people I met in dungeons formed with duty finder. Not something to sneeze at considering duty finder is cross server such that most of the time you can't recruit or friend the folks you get grouped with.
I'd say that if Chris thinks dungeon finder tools limit friendship opportunities he might want to look at how his own behaviors and attitudes are affecting the group social dynamic...I get asked regularly what server I am from at the end of pugs and have made many friendships through them.
a hello? why not turn dungeon finder into group finder basically just snipping the teleport to dungeon part get rid of safe zones and everyoen is happy
I've found joining an active guild helps a ton with doing dungeons and raids. Aside from that I've very rarely used group finder. I still prefer the old fashioned way of finding a group. because once you put together a group in this fashion after the fact a group finder is in place, I end up with a much better group than any other time. I've accomplished Speed clears in quicker times because of the more experienced players. oddly enough
You COULD start by telling your readers this is for WoW. I don't play WoW because it's just a grind, imho, so I don't keep up with all the garbage they keep piling into the game. So when you have a title that mentions PvP, I'm expecting to be reading about PvP.
The golden years are always better. Why? We forget the bad and remember the good with highlighted memory. How soon do we forget yelling LFG for sometimes hours. Running from zone to zone yelling LFG. Asking how long till camps were free. Standing in lines in camps waiting for someone to leave. There are bad sides to dungeon finders as well but its better then the alternative IMO. I still think dungeon finders could be improved to weed out bad habits and encourage good habits. Rewards for not doing a dungeon the quickest but instead biggest rewards for 100% completion.
I believe it's imperative to bring accountability and social awareness to the LF(G/DR) systems. Please take a look at systems like OpenRaid which provide the ability for players to rate others and forms a society around the LF gaming need. I do believe WoW will eventually provide this capability and it will probably evolve in WOD (WoW v6).
What every dev/pub should stand behind: "We're committed to creating a fair playing field for all players. You cannot gain gameplay advantage by spending real money in [INSERT GAME NAME]."
You COULD start by telling your readers this is for WoW. I don't play WoW because it's just a grind, imho, so I don't keep up with all the garbage they keep piling into the game. So when you have a title that mentions PvP, I'm expecting to be reading about PvP.
Idiotic article.
Player vs Player is the name of the blog. Rolled a 1 for Reading Comprehension. Critical Miss!
Originally posted by Homitu Originally posted by GdemamiOriginally posted by pierthGood example of a false cause logical fallacy- want to try again?
No fallacy there. Want to try again?Is that how forums work, you just say "no I win," and then...you win? What about using smart sounding words even when you use them wrong?
Originally posted by Xiaoki Originally posted by Homitu Originally posted by GdemamiOriginally posted by pierthGood example of a false cause logical fallacy- want to try again?
No fallacy there. Want to try again?Is that how forums work, you just say "no I win," and then...you win? What about using smart sounding words even when you use them wrong?
Comments
I don't even think it is entirely that people have changed(even though that is part of it). When dungeons and raids were implemented they were not designed as a "for everybody" feature. Back in vanilla and BC the people doing heroics were a minority, the people doing raids were vastly fewer than even that number.
It isn't that the people themselves have changed so much as the intended audience has changed. The main problem being is that the people that enjoy group content and challenging content were initially the intended audience and the content was a good fit for them. Now that the content has been pushed out to the masses and the "intended audience" has been opened up it no longer is a good fit for the original fans of the content, and many of the design principles of heroics/raids are at odds with what the new "intended audience" want out of the game. So instead of a somewhat niche form of content enjoyed by the few players who do it, we have content targeted at everyone that almost noone enjoys because it fails to meet the needs of both the solo type player just trying to get some progression and the needs of the player who wants challenging group content.
I'm not saying it didn't happen. There will always be exceptions. And there were MMO veterans then too coming from other games who may have been less inclined to have patience with the newer WoW kiddies. There always has and always will be drama when players get together in groups of any size. I still feel players were generally move patient, or at least cooperative, back then, but maybe that's just because I was a blissfully ignorant noob at the time myself. Even though I did start with FFXI a year before WoW came out, most of WoW's systems, including dungeon runs and raiding, were brand new to me. I'm sure I fucked up more than my fair share of times, but I don't ever recall people being especially short tempered with me. But again, we're both just speaking in generalizations based on our own subjective experiences.
I definitely don't think this reason is THE primary reason players have less patience today. I think both OPs hit many of the factors on the nose. But I do still think this is A contributing factor to why players seem to behave differently in dungeons today.
As for your generational hypothesis, I usually tend to exercise caution about making such assertions, as every generation seems to make such assertions about the next. I'll agree with the quick access assessment, as well as the general statement that "players have changed", at least somewhat, but I wouldn't be so quick to just chock it up to some mystical new generation. A lot of them are the same exact players who played back in 2004. Yes, they've changed. But why have they changed? That's exactly the question we're trying to answer. The OPs discuss the dungeon finder as a part-culprit. I suggest dungeon and combat design are contributing factors, as well as an inflated ego among the increasingly experienced player population. I think your idea that players expect quicker rewards is also a sound idea, just not because of a generational shift. I think developers are designing games that have conditioned players to expect instant gratification. It's a two way street, of course, but that deserves a whole discussion of its own.
It isn't, it is always 1 way.
Developers follow player desires, it is never the other way round.
If people prefered the old ways, dungeon finder wouldn't become so massively popular.
It is like looking for a server to play a fps,you are not playing a MMORPG in that manner.This is the huge problem with game design,they are more like tools and linear treadmills than anything resembling a role playing experience.A game should be YOUR game,you are the role player moving about a world,it should not be tools looking for a dungeon or following yellow question marks around a map.I have no idea where these two ridiculous rpg concepts originated but they make no sense.
I look for arena maps and servers to play unreal on,i am not about to pretend i am playing a MMO in that manner.There are a lot of players it seems that just want to hangout in an area that is constant looting,they really want no part of a role playing experience,just looting.We should also not be calling them dungeons ,more like small zones to loot because a dungeon would be open to everyone in game NOT an instance.Instances are just super easy content for a developer to play and warping players to and from is again super easy and lazy,it plays no purpose in a role playing experience.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Apparenty, players do not want to play YOUR game.
Who cares? Irrelevant question.
The important is, there is a choice. As usual tho, there are people who want to take away your way of playing, you have to play it THEIR way as it is the only way the game should be played...
2 points i wanna make to what you said here.
1. there's a reason instances became a thing. the amount of mmo players has increased exponentially since the time when dungeon's were open world. You just cannot have open world dungeons without running into way to many problems such as over population of a dungeon, camping to a ruthless degree, and lets not get started on if the game has open world pvp(though i don't deny this would definitely PROMOTE world pvp which isn't a bad thing in itself). but the main problem with open world dungeons is overpopulation.
2. about 'instances' being super easy content. yea, today it is. but go back in time in vanilla wow/BC, dungeons were NOT super easy i assure you that. you actually had to use tactics and have your dps use their CC abilities because the tank didn't just run through pull half the room and aoe tank while out dpsing the dps like it is nowadays. So dungeons being 'super easy' is not because of instances, its because....of another problem entirely.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
It isn't, it is always 1 way.
Developers follow player desires, it is never the other way round.
If people prefered the old ways, dungeon finder wouldn't become so massively popular.
Good example of a false cause logical fallacy- want to try again?
No fallacy there. Want to try again?
There is nothing wrong with the tool itself, the problem with WoW was that they made dungeon finder groups (and LFR groups) far too easy. When there is no challenge, there is no need to communicate.
If you had a decent working LFG tool in EQ2 you would still see people chatting because you need to talk about strategies in dungeons. I know EQ2 has a LFG tool, but its a joke and no one uses it.
I really dislike games which deliberately exclude LFG tools, it just inundates chat with LFG spam which makes actual chat difficult. I don't consider - 'LFM for Stormhold - Need healer!' repeated for 15 minutes to be social., its just like looking at my spam folder in my email inbox.
It can also get rid of those awkward conversations where you have to explain to someone that their level 30 gear isn't quite going to cut it in that difficult level 80 dungeon, by filtering out players who fall below the gear levels (only for LFG, if you want to try do it with less gear manually then go for it).
Another mistake WoW made was making the benefits of going with a random group better than going with friends. There should be no benefit to doing it with randoms, it should just be a tool, nothing more.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
How does LFG tool make people not talk about dungeon tactics? How those 2 elemets even relate to each other?
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
In fact, 10 members of my FC in FFXIV are people I met in dungeons formed with duty finder. Not something to sneeze at considering duty finder is cross server such that most of the time you can't recruit or friend the folks you get grouped with.
I'd say that if Chris thinks dungeon finder tools limit friendship opportunities he might want to look at how his own behaviors and attitudes are affecting the group social dynamic...I get asked regularly what server I am from at the end of pugs and have made many friendships through them.
You COULD start by telling your readers this is for WoW. I don't play WoW because it's just a grind, imho, so I don't keep up with all the garbage they keep piling into the game. So when you have a title that mentions PvP, I'm expecting to be reading about PvP.
Idiotic article.
If you can't your point is moot.
People do not want to socialize, dungeon finders or not. You cannot force people into playing the game your way.
Player vs Player is the name of the blog. Rolled a 1 for Reading Comprehension. Critical Miss!
Idiocy indeed.
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
Is that how forums work, you just say "no I win," and then...you win?
Is that how forums work, you just say "no I win," and then...you win?
What about using smart sounding words even when you use them wrong?
Is that how forums work?
Yeah, actually, I think they do.
Is that how forums work, you just say "no I win," and then...you win?
What about using smart sounding words even when you use them wrong?
Is that how forums work?
Yeah, actually, I think they do.
Bingo.