From what you've read huh? Guess you don't read much then. Please name the MMO that you can counterspell in. Please name the game that gives you so many options, that six seconds to choose your attack ISN'T enough time. Please name the game that has Diplomacy. Please name the game that has crafters grouping to make the best stuff.
puhleeze your such a fanboy its sickening. I have not once seen a mmorpg without a counterspell feature.... world of warcraft for example, shield bash, earth shock, silence, etc etc... all counterspells. You can remove buffs from other people as well. (note i canceled wow out of boredom so im not raving about it). Heck ive seen mages do nearly 2.2k dmg per frostbolt if they didnt get interrupted then your going down.
Crafters making the best things...? take a look at dark age of camelot before trials of atlantis or on the current classic servers. Spellcrafted gear(involving players to make gear of a certain quality and then getting it enchanted by a Spellcrafter...). Also ryzom, and everquest 2(from what i've seen it of it, its really heavily crafting. Gear, poisons, food...)
Vanguard is just like every other mmorpg that was coming out in the past year. Full of hype and promised features, but will not deliver. I can almost guarantee that it won't be the "godsend of mmorpgs" that many people are claiming it to be.
enough of that tho. vanguard discussion should stay in the vanguard forum. -----
Full on explorable worlds does not offer any more social interaction then a instanced game(done right). Few notes that are worth pointing out.
1. Almost every open world game offers very little interaction between people outside of towns, besides competing for spawns to farm.
a. When in any mmorpg, did you ever travel all the way to zone you need to go to and THEN look for members? if you have then... i feel sorry for you. It has been my experience that before you travel out you gather your party. Any recruitment at the zone is only because of a disconnect, or a quitting member.
b. Say your at a zone, and you come across a team of 2 or 3 or even just 1 person handling the mobs just fine. Chances are they won't take you in because your not needed. And if they were handling the mobs fine and take you in, chances are they will likely kick you out once you complete the task.
c. There is a huge chance you won't communicate after the quest, or grinding is done. I've been in tons of pickup groups in multiple mmorpgs, and it is silenter then playing city of heroes and walking down the street listening to npcs. Friends talk, strangers want to get the job done as quick as possible.
d. When i played guild wars, i had a large guild, very friendly, very talkative, and we played together, pvpd together, and had a great time. I still communicate with a few and its been months and months since i quit playing. Maybe your just antisocial, maybe you decided to not join that random guild invite, but even in guild wars instanced system, i met many people.
2. Am i impacting the world, am i roleplaying?
a. In a non instanced mmorpg, you NEVER feel like your roleplaying, at least a popular one. How are you roleplaying camping a respawn point while a few other teams slaughter the mob while you just sit there? Him repeatedly running away and coming back and your waiting for a opportune(spelling) time to attack it? puhleeeze. How is it roleplaying creating a team having to run 60 minutes to the zone you want to attack/farm/quest at. And have a few members leave by the time you get there and then have to yell out LOOKING FOR TANK FOR DRAGON'S ARMPIT! It happens more often then i care to admit.
b. goblins repairing a hole in the floor? ummm... what goblins? the ones that "magically reappear out of hidden cracks in the wallls?" considering to get to that point in the dungeon the party has to basically clear out alot of the dungeon. After losing that many goblins, i don't think they'd really care much to repair a wall that ALREADY HAS A PARTY INSIDE OF IT, as well as their leaders probably killed.
c. How are you supposed to do any sort of story DURING a dungeon thats populated by more then 1 party at a time? Camping respawns will make any escorts, area triggers, item gathering to trigger gates etc a pain or missed entirely. I don't consider getting a quest with 3 paragraphs of text then killing a named mob and then 3 more paragraphs when you return to the npc very interactive. Reading books and the like also are not interactive, i like a good story, i like to be a part of it, not just a lapdog to trigger further "chapters" to read. imho i saw more storyline in guildwars then i did in everquest, everquest online adventures, the early parts of eq2, and wow combined. And i just mean from a interactive point, like i said, if i wanted to read a poorly written, hard to follow story id go buy a choose your own adventure book.
too long to preview so excuse any errors
-edit-
It just struck me. How is it not a massively multiplayer online game when its all instanced? hmm? because your not playing with them all at once? Tell me one time in a non instanced mmorpg that you have ever played with the entire world at once, you only play with your group, and for all that really matters other people could simply be npcs, and it wouldn't change anything.
Your still all playing DDO, in the same server, and you can play together without creating different games. You may say you have to create different instances so its like different games. Tell me how is doing different instances any different then doing areas in the real world. You have to move between them. Look at city of heroes/villains. All its missions are instanced, it has a great storyline, best roleplaying i've seen in a mmorpg(since all i see in other roleplay games is a bunch of thees and thous, and the like. FYI not all fantasy games take place in europe during the time of knights, and thees and thous are only used during formalities common knights etc didnt even talk like that!) don't say "coh/cov also has uninstanced world zones" Ya and they are merely a means for travel, and a place to put the doors to the instances. All the roleplay comes from the instances themselves. Not to mention the great storylines you get thrown into. Everything from raiding a army base to attacking a section of town to destroy energy generators to stop a broadcast of some information that musn't be leaked. All of which would be totally ruined of ANY immersion, camping respawns, fighting for mobs and the like.
DDO brings you very close to your party members, I consider those, who I plated with pals. Two things are to be mentioned, as features, that we have to thank for that. One is the great group finding system, the other is the game mechanics in the dungeon. Combat is very engaging, you have to pay a lot of atention to a lot of factors, and a lot of attention to your party members. They sacrificed the possibility of soloing, for a better social side of the game, this is due to the fact, that every class has a specific job, and this makes them irreplacable. While leveling in WoW for example, the player has no choice in choosing attributes, in DDO you can costumize your character a lot better. In wow they tried to balance the game, but actually what they achieved, is simply making the classes, races very alike. In DDO the beauty of it all, is that it's based on a very balanced system, though it's components are very unique. This was achived through decades of polishing, and it is the best system available. DDO is simply put an opportunity to get in touch with people on a higher level, than seen in any other mmo.
DDO is a PvE based GW with better grouping options. Furthermore DDO only seems to have about 1/10 of the content (in form of quests and places to explore) compared to any other mmorpg (even GW).
Being that GW is free. I have no clue how anyone can intentionally think charging a monthly fee for a game that isn't really on par with its competition will lead to any sales in the long term (unless of course they charge 10 dollars per day you play, which would then average 200 dollars pr. person at it doesn't take more than 20 days to complete everything and reach the level limit).
DDO will sell tremendously well upon its release. After the first month of free play is over, there will be a massive exodus out of the game. Then within a year, the developers will probably be considering shutting down the server.
Why? People won't pay for mediocrity. If the indication on these boards bear any weight, places like IGN and Gamespot are going to rank this game in the 5/10 overall range. I think this is generous. Then you will see a wealth of reader reviews that say the same thing . . .this game is simply not very good.
You know Random, so far I have been big into comparing GW to DDO but I have to say your argument is a good one. I would say that you have one of the most reasonable arguments I have heard so far from your camp. Bravo to a well fashioned argument. I still don't like 100% instanced but hey maybe it is the only feasible way to relate D&D to the online world at the moment. I'm still not going to play it though, but kudos to your rational thoughts.
Originally posted by caero The combat is fun. And the party aspect is well made in this one. The quests are also different. Those are the plusses I have for it.
I thought the combat was awkward, at best. Too many things to do at the same time. Unless My setup was wrong... I was not impress with the key combo for the dodge/roll thing. And I did not like the click on target to hit it and then the roll to se if you hit it. I mean the PnP DnD games I played, when it was your turn, you rolled to see if you hit. Why add the extra step? To make it more challenging?
No real opinion on the party stuff yet.
I never really saw anything really different about the quests. Tho I will admit, I spent most of my time during the stress test trying out new characters and did not get into the main part of the city. What I did like was the repeatability of most quests with diminishing returns. What I did not like was the diminishing returns if you died during a quest.
From what you've read huh? Guess you don't read much then. Please name the MMO that you can counterspell in. Please name the game that gives you so many options, that six seconds to choose your attack ISN'T enough time. Please name the game that has Diplomacy. Please name the game that has crafters grouping to make the best stuff.
puhleeze your such a fanboy its sickening. I have not once seen a mmorpg without a counterspell feature.... world of warcraft for example, shield bash, earth shock, silence, etc etc... all counterspells. You can remove buffs from other people as well. (note i canceled wow out of boredom so im not raving about it). Heck ive seen mages do nearly 2.2k dmg per frostbolt if they didnt get interrupted then your going down.
You see what you're talking about is interrupting, what I'm talking about is changing the effects of the spell that is being cast at you.
Crafters making the best things...? take a look at dark age of camelot before trials of atlantis or on the current classic servers. Spellcrafted gear(involving players to make gear of a certain quality and then getting it enchanted by a Spellcrafter...). Also ryzom, and everquest 2(from what i've seen it of it, its really heavily crafting. Gear, poisons, food...)
Again you don't even read a post you're responding to, and you want us to beievle you've read about Vanguard? Show me a game where crafters have to GROUP to make the best things.
Vanguard is just like every other mmorpg that was coming out in the past year. Full of hype and promised features, but will not deliver. I can almost guarantee that it won't be the "godsend of mmorpgs" that many people are claiming it to be.
And I can tell you, it will be. EDIT: As a matter of fact, I can tell you that EVERYTHING I've mentioned is IN THE GAME RIGHT NOW.
enough of that tho. vanguard discussion should stay in the vanguard forum. -----
For the rest of your post, I can simply respond with: Just becasue you haven't figured out a way to make it work, doesn't mean someone else hasn't
Hmm, would the OP be happier if we described it as an inferior versions of GW that you have to pay for? =P
No, seriously. Someone explain to me why a 100% instanced game with a graphical lobby is essential for DnD. Create an actual semi-persistant world and you won't have 1000 players all trying to kill the same Beholder. Of course, you'd probably want to add other things. Like a world map. Maybe crafting. You know, ways to bring the players together since you've got 1k+ of em they might as well interact beyond a chatroom level.
I'm still waiting for instances to have a positive impact on any MMOG (DDO and GW are not MMOGs). They suck in WoW. They suck in EVE (deadspaces). But then the whole poing, atleast for me, of playing a MMOG is interacting with people. Otherwise I'd just play Hellgate/D2 all day.
If I want to get philosophical about comparisons, then I will state the following: comparison is a very good way to appraising a product's real worth, however, the case is not so clear with this game. I have named the topic in such a way for a specific reason, the fact that most people try to define DDO, by associating it with GW impacts the game's hype negativelly, I merely try to rid this community of such prejudice, so we can all jugde the game fairly.
I will indulge you Ian, and speak my mind about DDO, with as few comparisons as possible.
It is an mmorpg. fact. ( it is on mmorpg.com ) On the massive scale it has less sophisticated interaction with other players, however, in party/guild the interaction has a lot more detail. Ofcource instancing is at the core of all this, without it there would be more interaction between players on the massive scale, but interactions altogether would be shalow. The way it is designed now, interaction between players is the essence of the game, classes are complementary, thus the game heavily encourages partying, I consider this a big plus. As was disclosed before, finding a party is easier than ever.
The combat: it struck me as unusual at first. I admit, the interface still needs work, but noone needs to worry, it is not chaos . The combat is fast paced, engaging, interesting and DnDlike. Combat is actually keeping the player tense, giving chance for every kind of gamestyle. If the player happens to choose a fighter, then autoattack is activated, and nothing else needs be done, while if the player is a wizard, he/she'll have two quickslot bars full of spells, having to pay very much attention. Although classes are so different, they are balanced, and each serve a specific role. It is the best combat roleplay ever to hit the shelves ( not yet, but soon ).
The mobs: Simply put, they feel alive. They are quite challenging, and different mobs need very different approaches, sometimes even only particular types of weapons. This increases the importance of the listen skill for example, because to be prepared, one needs to know what awaits in the next room, so a rogue-like char can just listen near the door.
Loot: the loot system is fair. I often got mad in toher games, about my party members picking up all the good loot, and afterwards not sharing the coins. It's handled very well here. Most of the loot is found in the chests, and everyone gets loot, with same amount of value.
I wish not describe it further, you have read the reviews, played the game. Important thing is: although based on an old, but proven correct game mechanic, it is a new kind of MMO, as allways time will be the judge of it, but it is totally unique in it's own right, so let's give it that much!
Originally posted by Malhavok No, seriously. Someone explain to me why a 100% instanced game with a graphical lobby is essential for DnD. Create an actual semi-persistant world and you won't have 1000 players all trying to kill the same Beholder. Of course, you'd probably want to add other things. Like a world map. Maybe crafting. You know, ways to bring the players together since you've got 1k+ of em they might as well interact beyond a chatroom level.
Instances are essential for DDO (not that I'm saying they need to be the ONLY adventure setting) because of PnP D&D mechanics, mainly TRAPS, have a non-instanced version and rogues become almost pointless, but also tactical fights (or better yet tactical combat avoidance) and skill-based (I'm talking PnP D&D type skills here) dungeon "solving" are impossible to implement too. You CAN'T do any of this properly in a non-instanced adventure. The instancing is CERTAINLY NOT the problem with DDO.
Taking another point from this thread; the combat isn't the problem either, the click to hit is a great new innovation (whether it fits with D&D is another issue) and it makes me sick to see people complain about a new innovation like this, when in hundreds of other threads people complain about lack of new/different/innovative MMOs, with attitudes like this it's no wonder game designers are afraid to break the mould.
I do think DDO has problems but it's neither of these. (If you really want to know, I think its MAIN problem will be the combined "design-goals" of small server pops (ie 1000-2000) and almost exclusively group-based content. That's the DDO disaster waiting to happen right there.)
Originally posted by hadz Instances are essential for DDO (not that I'm saying they need to be the ONLY adventure setting) because of PnP D&D mechanics, mainly TRAPS, have a non-instanced version and rogues become almost pointless, but also tactical fights (or better yet tactical combat avoidance) and skill-based (I'm talking PnP D&D type skills here) dungeon "solving" are impossible to implement too. You CAN'T do any of this properly in a non-instanced adventure. The instancing is CERTAINLY NOT the problem with DDO. First, you say rogues would be pointless, yet every other MMO seems to have them without instancing, and work well. Second: And I submit to you again one of the best MMO designers ever (and some say THE Best) Brad McQuaid disagrees with you. He seems to think you can have all that WITHOUT instancing. Taking another point from this thread; the combat isn't the problem either, the click to hit is a great new innovation (whether it fits with D&D is another issue) and it makes me sick to see people complain about a new innovation like this, when in hundreds of other threads people complain about lack of new/different/innovative MMOs, with attitudes like this it's no wonder game designers are afraid to break the mould. You see, you've just by-passed most of the issues people have with the combat system with a little parenthisis coment (whether it's D&D is another issue), it's not ANOTHER issue, it is THE issue. This game is supposed to be D&D, and while you suggest that it's new and innovative, it's acutally been around for years and years, it's just the first time in an MMO. But even that's not what we're complaining about, it's the fact that this game does NOT feel like D&D. I do think DDO has problems but it's neither of these. (If you really want to know, I think its MAIN problem will be the combined "design-goals" of small server pops (ie 1000-2000) and almost exclusively group-based content. That's the DDO disaster waiting to happen right there.)
Instances are essential for DDO (not that I'm saying they need to be the ONLY adventure setting) because of PnP D&D mechanics, mainly TRAPS, have a non-instanced version and rogues become almost pointless, but also tactical fights (or better yet tactical combat avoidance) and skill-based (I'm talking PnP D&D type skills here) dungeon "solving" are impossible to implement too. You CAN'T do any of this properly in a non-instanced adventure. The instancing is CERTAINLY NOT the problem with DDO.
First, you say rogues would be pointless, yet every other MMO seems to have them without instancing, and work well.
They're not D&D rogues, and you know it! Read the REST of my paragraph and don't just look at the word rogue and go off on some tangent. I said TRAPS and dungeon "solving"...do you SEE any other MMO doing that?
Second: And I submit to you again one of the best MMO designers ever (and some say THE Best) Brad McQuaid disagrees with you. He seems to think you can have all that WITHOUT instancing.
Sorry...but since when was Brad McQ voted the best MMO designer ever...and WHO cares. It's thinking like this that will keep MMOs back in the Everquest darkages. If you don't want progress and new ideas stick with Vanguard, cause that sounds like it's got none. (Plus, it's doubtful whether it will ever see the light of day) We're talking about DDO here, and NOT Vanguard, so let's stop mention Mr McQuaid with no good reason...
Taking another point from this thread; the combat isn't the problem either, the click to hit is a great new innovation (whether it fits with D&D is another issue) and it makes me sick to see people complain about a new innovation like this, when in hundreds of other threads people complain about lack of new/different/innovative MMOs, with attitudes like this it's no wonder game designers are afraid to break the mould.
You see, you've just by-passed most of the issues people have with the combat system with a little parenthisis coment (whether it's D&D is another issue), it's not ANOTHER issue, it is THE issue. This game is supposed to be D&D, and while you suggest that it's new and innovative, it's acutally been around for years and years, it's just the first time in an MMO.
Yes...even you admit it's the first time in an MMO...that was my whole POINT! But as usual we get a bunch of conservatives crying that it shouldn't be. Fair enough go play UO and EQ and let people who want change play the new games.
But even that's not what we're complaining about, it's the fact that this game does NOT feel like D&D.
So, how is D&D supposed to feel? Which of the myriad PC and Console games gave the so-called D&D feel? All of those games have been canned from one quarter or another for not being D&D faithful, so which if any was? (or do we need a NEW one to try...as DDO is doing?) I personally think NWN is the best of them for giving a true D&D "feel" (even if some of the rules are different, it feels the most like a PnP conversion, IMHO of course). Anyway, I'm not a DDO fanboi, all I'm saying is people need to be a bit reasonable and not become DDO anti-fanbois, particularly not when based on the instancing and combat almost exclusively.
One final comment, let's pretend they are using turn-based combat with no click-to-hit. What do Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians & to a lesser extent Rangers & Paladins DO during combat? Sit there and watch? If you took out click-to-hit (and the other couple of in-combat additions that DDO has made for the melee classes) then those classes would be doing NOTHING during most combats, other than targetting a new mob when the current one dies. They had to do something to address that problem, and they AS THE GAME DESIGNERS, decided what they thought was best, and neither you nor BmcQ has any real say in questioning their decision. (Unless you can come up with something better, if so, please SHARE it with us. It could be good for a laugh.)
I feel than instancing sucks. The reason is the "massively" part in MMORPG. If you're going to call it an MMORPG then I think there should be very, very little instancing. I would prefer none. I don't mind competing for Beholder spawns as the O.P. said, in fact, I revel in that sort of competition. Thing is, in an MMORPG, people end up having to get along more often than not, and wait their turn.
If you're going to instance every dungeon, just call it a TMORPG: Team multiplayer Online Role Playing game. One group per dungeon isn't massive, unless it's a large raid.
First off about McQuaid: please Mr. McQuaid, if you have an opinion to post in this topic, do so, otherwise stop sending them fanbois, they do a lousy job (no offence).
Hadz is right about many things ( I understand it, afterall we share love towards NWN). Many of the things he said, I already mentioned before, different context though, so I wish not repeat them, instead I have only one statement.
DDO isn't popular because they have the DnD brand name, but it is controversial because they stay true to DnD rather than classic mmorpg conventions.
They're not D&D rogues, and you know it! Read the REST of my paragraph and don't just look at the word rogue and go off on some tangent. I said TRAPS and dungeon "solving"...do you SEE any other MMO doing that? Yes EQ2 Has dungeoun solving. Walls that blow up, things to move and climb and jump on. Sorry...but since when was Brad McQ voted the best MMO designer ever...and WHO cares. I never said he was, I said SOME would say he is. It's thinking like this that will keep MMOs back in the Everquest darkages. So let me get this straight: If I take a clone of a single player game call it an MMO, then make people pay for it, it becomes inovative and new? Are you really that gullible? If you don't want progress and new ideas stick with Vanguard, cause that sounds like it's got none. (Plus, it's doubtful whether it will ever see the light of day) Wow are you out of the loop. First I suggest you read up on Vanguard before saying it offeres nothing new. Second since it just entered Beta 2, which happens to be the same phase of Beta as DDO, I'd say they have equal chance of seeing the light of day. Let's forget about the fact that Vanguard is backed by Microsoft, while DDO is backed by Turbine you tell me who has more money to keep things afloat there. We're talking about DDO here, and NOT Vanguard, so let's stop mention Mr McQuaid with no good reason... I mention him, because it is your contention that you can't have the things that DDO has without instances, it is his contention that you can. I hate to tell you this, but since he has a successful MMO under his belt and you don't, his word carries more weight than yours. Yes...even you admit it's the first time in an MMO...that was my whole POINT! But as usual we get a bunch of conservatives crying that it shouldn't be. Again taking a single player game that has been around for years and making me pay for it is not my idea of innovation. Fair enough go play UO and EQ and let people who want change play the new games. Fair enough, and if you want to pay for a single player game, feel free to send me $15 a month for any single player game you load up. So, how is D&D supposed to feel? Epic quests. Exploration, crafting scrolls or forging that Dragonlance. Not, "Yeah you go down about 3 blocks hang a left by that robot dog, and go in that house. Smash all the boxes and barrels you see and kill the monsters in the basement. Which of the myriad PC and Console games gave the so-called D&D feel? All of those games have been canned from one quarter or another for not being D&D faithful, so which if any was? (or do we need a NEW one to try...as DDO is doing?) I personally think NWN is the best of them for giving a true D&D "feel" (even if some of the rules are different, it feels the most like a PnP conversion, IMHO of course). Yes NWN changed what they had to change to make the game convert. DDO changed what they had to change to sell more boxes. Anyway, I'm not a DDO fanboi, all I'm saying is people need to be a bit reasonable and not become DDO anti-fanbois, particularly not when based on the instancing and combat almost exclusively. I am a DDO "anti-fanboi" because I have played the game. I have a level 7 toon. I don't need to "be reasonable" I have seen the system in action and I KNOW I don't like it. One final comment, let's pretend they are using turn-based combat with no click-to-hit. What do Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians & to a lesser extent Rangers & Paladins DO during combat? Sit there and watch? What do they do in every other MMO? Again you REALLY need to take a look at Vanguard's combat system. When you take an HONEST look at it, you think to yourself: "Yeah that's how D&D combat should be!" You may also realize that all Turbine is doing is copying some tried system in the hopes of releasing their product so they can start to make some money. This game didn't/doesn't have the backing it needed to make it truely great. Turbine didn't have the resources to do anything innovative with this game. If you took out click-to-hit (and the other couple of in-combat additions that DDO has made for the melee classes) then those classes would be doing NOTHING during most combats, other than targetting a new mob when the current one dies. They had to do something to address that problem, and they AS THE GAME DESIGNERS, decided what they thought was best, and neither you nor BmcQ has any real say in questioning their decision. When did I ever say I could tell Turbine how to make an MMO? All I can do is give my opinion, and that opinion is Turbine screwed up. The system is horrible, and it doesn't feel like D&D. (Unless you can come up with something better, if so, please SHARE it with us. It could be good for a laugh.) Brad and his team DID come up with a better system, but for some reason you don't want to hear that.
Originally posted by random11 Quite a punch there hadz! First off about McQuaid: please Mr. McQuaid, if you have an opinion to post in this topic, do so, otherwise stop sending them fanbois, they do a lousy job (no offence). Hadz is right about many things ( I understand it, afterall we share love towards NWN). Many of the things he said, I already mentioned before, different context though, so I wish not repeat them, instead I have only one statement. DDO isn't popular because they have the DnD brand name, but it is controversial because they stay true to DnD rather than classic mmorpg conventions. Innovation is the way to the future, go DDO!
You are absolutely cluless. You're another one that can send me $15 a month for any single-player game you load up. I've also provided you a link stating Brad McQuad's opinion on Instancing. he calles it the lazy way out yet you're too lazy to read it or not smart enough to understand it.
The only reason you think I'm doing a bad job, is because you simply ignore all the facts. You simply ignore all the times I've proven you wrong and pretend it didn't happen. Then you repeat the argument I've already defeated as if it's something new.
I'm done with you random. I don't know if it's a handicap or a choice, but discussing anything with you is pointless.
Brad didn't say Instancing is solely the lazy way around. He mostly say that if planned from the start (the case with DDO no matter how much I hate some of their choices) it can work and be extremely nice.
Brad also say something about instancing remaining under control, not taking over the whole game. I doesn't pretend to know where his "limits" are, I think I can safely say DDO is to instanced for a MMO by Brad opinion, but what about a game like CoH?
IMO CoH is perfect on the instancing, if anything it could be instanced a tad bit more! DDO IMO is not overinstanced, the problems DDO will be facing are not instanced-related IMO. But that is only my opinion, the opinion of a player who think Neverwinter Night is a travesty of D&D and not deserving of the D&D label...usurper would be the terms I would throw at Neverwinter Night (and at DragonShard).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Brad didn't say Instancing is solely the lazy way around. He mostly say that if planned from the start (the case with DDO no matter how much I hate some of their choices) it can work and be extremely nice. He basically said DDO took the lazy way out. He said it CAN have some uses, but would rather find ways around it. Brad also say something about instancing remaining under control, not taking over the whole game. I doesn't pretend to know where his "limits" are, I think I can safely say DDO is to instanced for a MMO by Brad opinion, but what about a game like CoH? CoH IS DDO. DDO has a bit more, but not by a lot.
I know Brad is often brash, but I will believe it when I read it. The article I read he praises Neverwinter Night and didn't say anything about DDO.
Attacking a competitor openly is funny...and usually show clear desesperation! Defending raiding like he does would possibly bring such a desesperation in the long run, especially that he may get insider info from Blizzard who hopefully understand how much of a mistake raiding and Onyxia are.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I have read the Vanguard website FAQ (I haven't delved into the forums because frankly from the FAQ it sounded EXACTLY like a HUNDRED other games that are in production at the moment), to be fair they aren't revealing some of their "next-generation" (sounds awfully trekky) features, but of the features they have revealed, and even from many of the FAQ statements, it sounds like they're redoing the classic EQ but "making it better" (ie better graphics, technology, etc). As for the core systems they've ALL been done! For instance, the crafting/dip/fighting thing sounds exactly like D&Ls (and that is supposedly coming out first...haha...if it ever comes out) and that is about the only difference to normal MMOs that I could notice in the FAQ. (EDIT: And EQ2 even has the crafting and fighting levels differentiated too, so really it's not that different even to EQ2, just one added axis, ie Diplomacy, to advance the character in levels)
I'm sorry, but until Vanguard is finished and out there, it's got the same chance of being good (and popular) as DDO (as you said), so I wouldn't go touting it as the be all and end all (just as I'm not saying DDO is perfect...I mentioned a big flaw that I see in DDO some posts ago). And remember, just because you don't like something (I mean you played a toon to lvl 7 out of 10, so you've nearly played the whole game after all, you couldn't have hated it that much) doesn't mean that others don't. Let's pretend, for instance, that I was in some sort of stress test of DDO, and let's also pretend that everyone I played with said how great it was, then I wouldn't think that it's doomed to mass failure.
And about EQ2 doing breakable dungeons, and blah blah etc...how'd they do that, I ask you??? Yes, yes it was INSTANCING! And good on EQ2 for being inventive and breaking the mould. But honestly the EQ2 breakable dungeons are far different from what is required to do the true D&D rogue class, with its trap detection, disarming & lock-picking (not to mention stealth and hiding...which can be done without instancing for sure, but not as well).
Anyway, I hope they keep improving DDO and make it a game that a large number will enjoy. Of course there's not much hope that they'll pull (for more than a month or so at any rate) the DIEHARD PnP D&D fans, nor the HARDCORE MMO fans as both camps tend to have their heads so far up their butts about what THEIR type of game is that I doubt they'll ever be convinced. Thankfully I like to keep an open mind about upcoming games. (So I'll probably be trying out Vanguard too when it comes out, my previous comment notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure it will hit the shelves...MS backing is certainly the best thing about Vanguard at the moment IMHO...and that's not saying a whole lot I suppose).
Originally posted by Anofalye You have the link? Yep I've posted it in this thread already. I know Brad is often brash, but I will believe it when I read it. The article I read he praises Neverwinter Night and didn't say anything about DDO. He doesn't mention DDO specifically, but implies it, and consdiering he's arguing with a former dev for DDO, the implication is pretty obvious.
Attacking a competitor openly is funny...and usually show clear desesperation! Defending raiding like he does would possibly bring such a desesperation in the long run, especially that he may get insider info from Blizzard who hopefully understand how much of a mistake raiding and Onyxia are. It's statements like these that remind me why I normally ignore your posts.
Comments
puhleeze your such a fanboy its sickening. I have not once seen a mmorpg without a counterspell feature.... world of warcraft for example, shield bash, earth shock, silence, etc etc... all counterspells. You can remove buffs from other people as well. (note i canceled wow out of boredom so im not raving about it). Heck ive seen mages do nearly 2.2k dmg per frostbolt if they didnt get interrupted then your going down.
Crafters making the best things...? take a look at dark age of camelot before trials of atlantis or on the current classic servers. Spellcrafted gear(involving players to make gear of a certain quality and then getting it enchanted by a Spellcrafter...). Also ryzom, and everquest 2(from what i've seen it of it, its really heavily crafting. Gear, poisons, food...)
Vanguard is just like every other mmorpg that was coming out in the past year. Full of hype and promised features, but will not deliver. I can almost guarantee that it won't be the "godsend of mmorpgs" that many people are claiming it to be.
enough of that tho. vanguard discussion should stay in the vanguard forum.
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Full on explorable worlds does not offer any more social interaction then a instanced game(done right). Few notes that are worth pointing out.
1. Almost every open world game offers very little interaction between people outside of towns, besides competing for spawns to farm.
a. When in any mmorpg, did you ever travel all the way to zone you need to go to and THEN look for members? if you have then... i feel sorry for you. It has been my experience that before you travel out you gather your party. Any recruitment at the zone is only because of a disconnect, or a quitting member.
b. Say your at a zone, and you come across a team of 2 or 3 or even just 1 person handling the mobs just fine. Chances are they won't take you in because your not needed. And if they were handling the mobs fine and take you in, chances are they will likely kick you out once you complete the task.
c. There is a huge chance you won't communicate after the quest, or grinding is done. I've been in tons of pickup groups in multiple mmorpgs, and it is silenter then playing city of heroes and walking down the street listening to npcs. Friends talk, strangers want to get the job done as quick as possible.
d. When i played guild wars, i had a large guild, very friendly, very talkative, and we played together, pvpd together, and had a great time. I still communicate with a few and its been months and months since i quit playing. Maybe your just antisocial, maybe you decided to not join that random guild invite, but even in guild wars instanced system, i met many people.
2. Am i impacting the world, am i roleplaying?
a. In a non instanced mmorpg, you NEVER feel like your roleplaying, at least a popular one. How are you roleplaying camping a respawn point while a few other teams slaughter the mob while you just sit there? Him repeatedly running away and coming back and your waiting for a opportune(spelling) time to attack it? puhleeeze. How is it roleplaying creating a team having to run 60 minutes to the zone you want to attack/farm/quest at. And have a few members leave by the time you get there and then have to yell out LOOKING FOR TANK FOR DRAGON'S ARMPIT! It happens more often then i care to admit.
b. goblins repairing a hole in the floor? ummm... what goblins? the ones that "magically reappear out of hidden cracks in the wallls?" considering to get to that point in the dungeon the party has to basically clear out alot of the dungeon. After losing that many goblins, i don't think they'd really care much to repair a wall that ALREADY HAS A PARTY INSIDE OF IT, as well as their leaders probably killed.
c. How are you supposed to do any sort of story DURING a dungeon thats populated by more then 1 party at a time? Camping respawns will make any escorts, area triggers, item gathering to trigger gates etc a pain or missed entirely. I don't consider getting a quest with 3 paragraphs of text then killing a named mob and then 3 more paragraphs when you return to the npc very interactive. Reading books and the like also are not interactive, i like a good story, i like to be a part of it, not just a lapdog to trigger further "chapters" to read. imho i saw more storyline in guildwars then i did in everquest, everquest online adventures, the early parts of eq2, and wow combined. And i just mean from a interactive point, like i said, if i wanted to read a poorly written, hard to follow story id go buy a choose your own adventure book.
too long to preview so excuse any errors
-edit-
It just struck me. How is it not a massively multiplayer online game when its all instanced? hmm? because your not playing with them all at once? Tell me one time in a non instanced mmorpg that you have ever played with the entire world at once, you only play with your group, and for all that really matters other people could simply be npcs, and it wouldn't change anything.
Your still all playing DDO, in the same server, and you can play together without creating different games. You may say you have to create different instances so its like different games. Tell me how is doing different instances any different then doing areas in the real world. You have to move between them. Look at city of heroes/villains. All its missions are instanced, it has a great storyline, best roleplaying i've seen in a mmorpg(since all i see in other roleplay games is a bunch of thees and thous, and the like. FYI not all fantasy games take place in europe during the time of knights, and thees and thous are only used during formalities common knights etc didnt even talk like that!) don't say "coh/cov also has uninstanced world zones" Ya and they are merely a means for travel, and a place to put the doors to the instances. All the roleplay comes from the instances themselves. Not to mention the great storylines you get thrown into. Everything from raiding a army base to attacking a section of town to destroy energy generators to stop a broadcast of some information that musn't be leaked. All of which would be totally ruined of ANY immersion, camping respawns, fighting for mobs and the like.
DDO brings you very close to your party members, I consider those, who I plated with pals. Two things are to be mentioned, as features, that we have to thank for that. One is the great group finding system, the other is the game mechanics in the dungeon. Combat is very engaging, you have to pay a lot of atention to a lot of factors, and a lot of attention to your party members. They sacrificed the possibility of soloing, for a better social side of the game, this is due to the fact, that every class has a specific job, and this makes them irreplacable. While leveling in WoW for example, the player has no choice in choosing attributes, in DDO you can costumize your character a lot better. In wow they tried to balance the game, but actually what they achieved, is simply making the classes, races very alike. In DDO the beauty of it all, is that it's based on a very balanced system, though it's components are very unique. This was achived through decades of polishing, and it is the best system available.
DDO is simply put an opportunity to get in touch with people on a higher level, than seen in any other mmo.
I don't agree.
DDO is a PvE based GW with better grouping options. Furthermore DDO only seems to have about 1/10 of the content (in form of quests and places to explore) compared to any other mmorpg (even GW).
Being that GW is free. I have no clue how anyone can intentionally think charging a monthly fee for a game that isn't really on par with its competition will lead to any sales in the long term (unless of course they charge 10 dollars per day you play, which would then average 200 dollars pr. person at it doesn't take more than 20 days to complete everything and reach the level limit).
DDO will sell tremendously well upon its release. After the first month of free play is over, there will be a massive exodus out of the game. Then within a year, the developers will probably be considering shutting down the server.
Why? People won't pay for mediocrity. If the indication on these boards bear any weight, places like IGN and Gamespot are going to rank this game in the 5/10 overall range. I think this is generous. Then you will see a wealth of reader reviews that say the same thing . . .this game is simply not very good.
Rest in Peace DDO.
http://aion.24-hrgaming.net
OK, this thrtead is named "Stop comparing DDo to GW"
OK, let's not compare it to any MMORPG.
What makes DDO a Good/Great game? Without comparing it to any MMORPG out there. Besides it has the D&D tag on it.
The combat is fun. And the party aspect is well made in this one. The quests are also different.
Those are the plusses I have for it.
I thought the combat was awkward, at best. Too many things to do at the same time. Unless My setup was wrong... I was not impress with the key combo for the dodge/roll thing. And I did not like the click on target to hit it and then the roll to se if you hit it. I mean the PnP DnD games I played, when it was your turn, you rolled to see if you hit. Why add the extra step? To make it more challenging?
No real opinion on the party stuff yet.
I never really saw anything really different about the quests. Tho I will admit, I spent most of my time during the stress test trying out new characters and did not get into the main part of the city. What I did like was the repeatability of most quests with diminishing returns. What I did not like was the diminishing returns if you died during a quest.
puhleeze your such a fanboy its sickening. I have not once seen a mmorpg without a counterspell feature.... world of warcraft for example, shield bash, earth shock, silence, etc etc... all counterspells. You can remove buffs from other people as well. (note i canceled wow out of boredom so im not raving about it). Heck ive seen mages do nearly 2.2k dmg per frostbolt if they didnt get interrupted then your going down.
You see what you're talking about is interrupting, what I'm talking about is changing the effects of the spell that is being cast at you.
Crafters making the best things...? take a look at dark age of camelot before trials of atlantis or on the current classic servers. Spellcrafted gear(involving players to make gear of a certain quality and then getting it enchanted by a Spellcrafter...). Also ryzom, and everquest 2(from what i've seen it of it, its really heavily crafting. Gear, poisons, food...)
Again you don't even read a post you're responding to, and you want us to beievle you've read about Vanguard? Show me a game where crafters have to GROUP to make the best things.
Vanguard is just like every other mmorpg that was coming out in the past year. Full of hype and promised features, but will not deliver. I can almost guarantee that it won't be the "godsend of mmorpgs" that many people are claiming it to be.
And I can tell you, it will be. EDIT: As a matter of fact, I can tell you that EVERYTHING I've mentioned is IN THE GAME RIGHT NOW.
enough of that tho. vanguard discussion should stay in the vanguard forum.
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For the rest of your post, I can simply respond with: Just becasue you haven't figured out a way to make it work, doesn't mean someone else hasn't
Hmm, would the OP be happier if we described it as an inferior versions of GW that you have to pay for? =P
No, seriously. Someone explain to me why a 100% instanced game with a graphical lobby is essential for DnD. Create an actual semi-persistant world and you won't have 1000 players all trying to kill the same Beholder. Of course, you'd probably want to add other things. Like a world map. Maybe crafting. You know, ways to bring the players together since you've got 1k+ of em they might as well interact beyond a chatroom level.
I'm still waiting for instances to have a positive impact on any MMOG (DDO and GW are not MMOGs). They suck in WoW. They suck in EVE (deadspaces). But then the whole poing, atleast for me, of playing a MMOG is interacting with people. Otherwise I'd just play Hellgate/D2 all day.
First of all, thnx bacon.
If I want to get philosophical about comparisons, then I will state the following: comparison is a very good way to appraising a product's real worth, however, the case is not so clear with this game. I have named the topic in such a way for a specific reason, the fact that most people try to define DDO, by associating it with GW impacts the game's hype negativelly, I merely try to rid this community of such prejudice, so we can all jugde the game fairly.
I will indulge you Ian, and speak my mind about DDO, with as few comparisons as possible.
It is an mmorpg. fact. ( it is on mmorpg.com
) On the massive scale it has less sophisticated interaction with other players, however, in party/guild the interaction has a lot more detail. Ofcource instancing is at the core of all this, without it there would be more interaction between players on the massive scale, but interactions altogether would be shalow. The way it is designed now, interaction between players is the essence of the game, classes are complementary, thus the game heavily encourages partying, I consider this a big plus. As was disclosed before, finding a party is easier than ever.
The combat: it struck me as unusual at first. I admit, the interface still needs work, but noone needs to worry, it is not chaos
. The combat is fast paced, engaging, interesting and DnDlike. Combat is actually keeping the player tense, giving chance for every kind of gamestyle. If the player happens to choose a fighter, then autoattack is activated, and nothing else needs be done, while if the player is a wizard, he/she'll have two quickslot bars full of spells, having to pay very much attention. Although classes are so different, they are balanced, and each serve a specific role. It is the best combat roleplay ever to hit the shelves ( not yet, but soon 
).
The mobs: Simply put, they feel alive. They are quite challenging, and different mobs need very different approaches, sometimes even only particular types of weapons. This increases the importance of the listen skill for example, because to be prepared, one needs to know what awaits in the next room, so a rogue-like char can just listen near the door.
Loot: the loot system is fair. I often got mad in toher games, about my party members picking up all the good loot, and afterwards not sharing the coins. It's handled very well here. Most of the loot is found in the chests, and everyone gets loot, with same amount of value.
I wish not describe it further, you have read the reviews, played the game. Important thing is: although based on an old, but proven correct game mechanic, it is a new kind of MMO, as allways time will be the judge of it, but it is totally unique in it's own right, so let's give it that much!
I wish you all a happy new year!
p.s. buy the game, play it
No thanks, I already have enough coasters.
http://aion.24-hrgaming.net
Instances are essential for DDO (not that I'm saying they need to be the ONLY adventure setting) because of PnP D&D mechanics, mainly TRAPS, have a non-instanced version and rogues become almost pointless, but also tactical fights (or better yet tactical combat avoidance) and skill-based (I'm talking PnP D&D type skills here) dungeon "solving" are impossible to implement too. You CAN'T do any of this properly in a non-instanced adventure. The instancing is CERTAINLY NOT the problem with DDO.
Taking another point from this thread; the combat isn't the problem either, the click to hit is a great new innovation (whether it fits with D&D is another issue) and it makes me sick to see people complain about a new innovation like this, when in hundreds of other threads people complain about lack of new/different/innovative MMOs, with attitudes like this it's no wonder game designers are afraid to break the mould.
I do think DDO has problems but it's neither of these. (If you really want to know, I think its MAIN problem will be the combined "design-goals" of small server pops (ie 1000-2000) and almost exclusively group-based content. That's the DDO disaster waiting to happen right there.)
I feel than instancing sucks. The reason is the "massively" part in MMORPG. If you're going to call it an MMORPG then I think there should be very, very little instancing. I would prefer none. I don't mind competing for Beholder spawns as the O.P. said, in fact, I revel in that sort of competition. Thing is, in an MMORPG, people end up having to get along more often than not, and wait their turn.
If you're going to instance every dungeon, just call it a TMORPG: Team multiplayer Online Role Playing game. One group per dungeon isn't massive, unless it's a large raid.
Quite a punch there hadz!
First off about McQuaid: please Mr. McQuaid, if you have an opinion to post in this topic, do so, otherwise stop sending them fanbois, they do a lousy job
(no offence).
Hadz is right about many things ( I understand it, afterall we share love towards NWN). Many of the things he said, I already mentioned before, different context though, so I wish not repeat them, instead I have only one statement.
DDO isn't popular because they have the DnD brand name, but it is controversial because they stay true to DnD rather than classic mmorpg conventions.
Innovation is the way to the future, go DDO!
You are absolutely cluless. You're another one that can send me $15 a month for any single-player game you load up. I've also provided you a link stating Brad McQuad's opinion on Instancing. he calles it the lazy way out yet you're too lazy to read it or not smart enough to understand it.
The only reason you think I'm doing a bad job, is because you simply ignore all the facts. You simply ignore all the times I've proven you wrong and pretend it didn't happen. Then you repeat the argument I've already defeated as if it's something new.
I'm done with you random. I don't know if it's a handicap or a choice, but discussing anything with you is pointless.
Jodo,
Brad didn't say Instancing is solely the lazy way around. He mostly say that if planned from the start (the case with DDO no matter how much I hate some of their choices) it can work and be extremely nice.
Brad also say something about instancing remaining under control, not taking over the whole game. I doesn't pretend to know where his "limits" are, I think I can safely say DDO is to instanced for a MMO by Brad opinion, but what about a game like CoH?
IMO CoH is perfect on the instancing, if anything it could be instanced a tad bit more!
DDO IMO is not overinstanced, the problems DDO will be facing are not instanced-related IMO. But that is only my opinion, the opinion of a player who think Neverwinter Night is a travesty of D&D and not deserving of the D&D label...usurper would be the terms I would throw at Neverwinter Night (and at DragonShard).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You have the link?
I know Brad is often brash, but I will believe it when I read it. The article I read he praises Neverwinter Night and didn't say anything about DDO.
Attacking a competitor openly is funny...and usually show clear desesperation! Defending raiding like he does would possibly bring such a desesperation in the long run, especially that he may get insider info from Blizzard who hopefully understand how much of a mistake raiding and Onyxia are.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Jodo
I have read the Vanguard website FAQ (I haven't delved into the forums because frankly from the FAQ it sounded EXACTLY like a HUNDRED other games that are in production at the moment), to be fair they aren't revealing some of their "next-generation" (sounds awfully trekky) features, but of the features they have revealed, and even from many of the FAQ statements, it sounds like they're redoing the classic EQ but "making it better" (ie better graphics, technology, etc). As for the core systems they've ALL been done! For instance, the crafting/dip/fighting thing sounds exactly like D&Ls (and that is supposedly coming out first...haha...if it ever comes out) and that is about the only difference to normal MMOs that I could notice in the FAQ. (EDIT: And EQ2 even has the crafting and fighting levels differentiated too, so really it's not that different even to EQ2, just one added axis, ie Diplomacy, to advance the character in levels)
I'm sorry, but until Vanguard is finished and out there, it's got the same chance of being good (and popular) as DDO (as you said), so I wouldn't go touting it as the be all and end all (just as I'm not saying DDO is perfect...I mentioned a big flaw that I see in DDO some posts ago). And remember, just because you don't like something (I mean you played a toon to lvl 7 out of 10, so you've nearly played the whole game after all, you couldn't have hated it that much) doesn't mean that others don't. Let's pretend, for instance, that I was in some sort of stress test of DDO, and let's also pretend that everyone I played with said how great it was, then I wouldn't think that it's doomed to mass failure.
And about EQ2 doing breakable dungeons, and blah blah etc...how'd they do that, I ask you??? Yes, yes it was INSTANCING! And good on EQ2 for being inventive and breaking the mould. But honestly the EQ2 breakable dungeons are far different from what is required to do the true D&D rogue class, with its trap detection, disarming & lock-picking (not to mention stealth and hiding...which can be done without instancing for sure, but not as well).
Anyway, I hope they keep improving DDO and make it a game that a large number will enjoy. Of course there's not much hope that they'll pull (for more than a month or so at any rate) the DIEHARD PnP D&D fans, nor the HARDCORE MMO fans as both camps tend to have their heads so far up their butts about what THEIR type of game is that I doubt they'll ever be convinced. Thankfully I like to keep an open mind about upcoming games. (So I'll probably be trying out Vanguard too when it comes out, my previous comment notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure it will hit the shelves...MS backing is certainly the best thing about Vanguard at the moment IMHO...and that's not saying a whole lot I suppose).