One thread telling people to accept games for what they are (it's read and answered as people should conform to the games available). Another thread asking that devs conform their games more toward the desires we see stated around here.
The former was answered with a big FU to the op, "how dare he advise us to give up the fight and accept a mediocre genre".
The latter is answered by telling the op to accept he's in a minority, people don't want his type of game. Which is essentially excusing the common dev practices. As well as accepting the "mediocrity" of the genre.
I don't know if it's the same people giving these highly contradictory answers or not, it very well may not be, but it sure is telling on just how mixed of a message you find on this forum.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What "we"? I'm a really casual gamer and I must admit... this companies are catering to me pretty damn well lately. It seems it's most of the "hardcore" 8 hour a day gamers getting the shaft. I'm not part of that "we".
MMO developers should always have their own vision, their ideal game, their dream game. Publishers kill that dream because they only care about making as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time. That has been hurting non-mmos as well lately. They can always create things that players like, as long as their own vision of the game is not affected negatively by that decision or by the publishers' thirst for quick money.
Is there anyone that actually likes jump puzzles in their MMO?
Personally, I think its one of the stupidest additions to grace this genre. If I wanted to platform, I'd buy a platformer. You know, a game thats actually designed for jumping as opposed to MMO jumping which is always clunky and causes rendering issues.
Originally posted by Sajman01 Can I ask a serious question?
Is there anyone that actually likes jump puzzles in their MMO?
not a serious question.... but ill answer
JP, one of the best ideas added to mmos lately. Dont like GW2? thats fine, dont like JP? thats fine, the game isnt for you. That doesnt make the game, the mechanic, nor your dislike for it stupid.
JP, one of the best ideas added to mmos lately. Dont like GW2? thats fine, dont like JP? thats fine, the game isnt for you. That doesnt make the game, the mechanic, nor your dislike for it stupid.
Why? I'm turning it around on you. What's so good about jump puzzles in MMOS? I find them annoying
Just because you like something doesn't make it a good mechanic.
Because games take longer to make than consumer trends usually last, which means game development is often an exercise is anticipating what people will want two years from now, rather than what they want right now. MMO's are even worse at this because they take much longer to develop.
There's also the little issue that just because people think they want something, doesn't mean they really want it. What's worse is that no matter what you do, there will always be people that don't like it and, unfortunately, they will become the new vocal minority that makes it seem worse than it is.
World of Warcraft is a great example of this topic. For the first two expansions, the dev's were pretty clear that they were not basing the game direction or mechanics or anything on popular opinion. People wanted dungeon finders, quicker access to mounts, less time spent drinking water to regain mana, less trash in dungeons, etc.. Eventually, when Activision and Blizzard merged, that all changed. Suddenly, all these features and changes that had been requested over the years were seemingly fast-tracked into the game.
And if you just go talk to current players or browse the forums, you wouldn't know that the community asked for all of this because people are complaining about it.
Lastly, I doubt any of you could honestly say that if you were in charge of a game, you wouldn't design it the way you think it should be, based on your vision, rather than what people on the internet are saying what they think it should be.
JP, one of the best ideas added to mmos lately. Dont like GW2? thats fine, dont like JP? thats fine, the game isnt for you. That doesnt make the game, the mechanic, nor your dislike for it stupid.
Why? I'm turning it around on you. What's so good about jump puzzles in MMOS? I find them annoying
Just because you like something doesn't make it a good mechanic.
it went straight back to you.... you are implying that just because you find them annoying that makes them bad.....
In GW2 there are a lot of JP, many are good and fun, but many others arent very good. I think there is room to make really better ones. Also, i would love to see the jumping puzzle mechanics in other parts of the game that involves grouping for PvE/PvP content, not just reaching out to a hidden chest.
Overall it is a good mechanic that works well, like it or not. Its a fact. Its my opinion that i love them and that they are amazing, but its a fact that they are a good mechanic and it works very well.
Originally posted by Rockniss why don't these publishers, devs, companies... yada yada yada just conform to the pricing models we enjoy, that being buy to play and sub? i went to the site and even half in the bag, it was a total turn off.
This is the exact problem. They ARE conforming EXACTLY to what the players "want". The problem is the players THINK they want X, but they in fact want Y. People are overall not very smart, there is a reason why people regret tons of decisions they make, and thats because most of them suck. They sound good on paper, or in your head, but in practice are fucking terrible. Look at things like communism, justin bieber, new kids on the block, pet rocks, etc.
There are mountains of evidence that the LAST thing you want to do is listen to the will of the people, epecially in regards to entertainment stuff. All the best things that have come out, whether its a song of ice and fire, or star wars, or stargate, etc, all came from the minds of creative geniuses who wrote/created what THEY thought was awesome. There is not 1 example of something created as a result of data mining/analysis and customer feedback. It always always fails.
Originally posted by Maimed
I'll bite.
Two famous Americans have once said, “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” and ,“People don't know what they want until you show it to them.” Henry Ford being one, and Steve Jobs the other.
The MMO forum community generally consists of people who can articulate what they like and don't like. They enjoy playing armchair developer because it's easy to assume an MMO goes from concept to production to release within a few weeks/months of a great idea! Most armchair developers have little to no business sense yet insist they know how the business is run because they took a college course and/or ran a guild and assume all businesses follow the same model.
On the other hand, I share the same frustration with the rest of the MMO community. Developers have been playing it too safe and there's really little to no value in playing glorified WOW-clones. If you want WOW, play WOW. And that's what many people choose to do.
How many games/posts can you identify "WOW-killer" over the past few years and realize that the hype pre-launch never matches the post-launch sentiment towards the game. Look at the marketing terms used pre-launch, then look at the features of the game upon launch. It's the same old junk with a fresh coat of paint designed to trick you into purchasing a box / sub for a couple months / or heaven forbid pouring money into a game pre-launch via kickstarter promotions or promises of extra in-game rewards/recognition for supporting the game pre-launch.
Quite simply, the MMO community doesn't really understand what it wants. They think they do, but all they really know is to ask for is faster horses. This comes in the form of:
- Sandbox, because Themeparks encourage the same old vertical progression treadmill
- No Sandbox, because horizontal progression doesn't reward the unemployed guy willing to marathon for days on end for phat lewt
- Open World PVP including Full Loot PVP, because risk should be rewarded
- No Open World PVP (or without consent), because nobody wants to be trolled/camped
- Dungeon Finder, because the demographic has matured and cannot spend hours waiting for a group
- No Dungeon Finder, because it ruins the sense of community
- F2P, because all games should be free and we should sample the entire product before we decide we're willing to pay for it
- Subscription only, because it'll preserve the community by keeping the F2P'ing riff-raff out and support continued content development
- B2P, because a hybrid model worked for one franchise and therefore all games should hop on the bandwagon
- No Cash Shop, because it's pay to win
- Cash Shop, because I like pretty mounts and other cosmetic items. Plus it gives me an opportunity to support the devs
The MMO community doesn't know what it wants. I understand everyone has a different flavor, but the desires of the MMO community shift like a huge pendulum with every passing fad. It's a total waste of time to listen to someone who will latch onto the next "revolutionary" idea before their hot pocket turns room temperature.
FYI I'm not trolling. I'm fully aware than WOW-clones can be a heated term since Everquest II was the first MMO made. My apologies to the EQ fans out there.
This guy has hit it right on the nailhead, couldnt possibly be more right. Minus the steve jobs part, that guy is a fucking IP thief. But, you know. whatever.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Two famous Americans have once said, “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” and ,“People don't know what they want until you show it to them.” Henry Ford being one, and Steve Jobs the other.
The MMO forum community generally consists of people who can articulate what they like and don't like. They enjoy playing armchair developer because it's easy to assume an MMO goes from concept to production to release within a few weeks/months of a great idea! Most armchair developers have little to no business sense yet insist they know how the business is run because they took a college course and/or ran a guild and assume all businesses follow the same model.
On the other hand, I share the same frustration with the rest of the MMO community. Developers have been playing it too safe and there's really little to no value in playing glorified WOW-clones. If you want WOW, play WOW. And that's what many people choose to do.
How many games/posts can you identify "WOW-killer" over the past few years and realize that the hype pre-launch never matches the post-launch sentiment towards the game. Look at the marketing terms used pre-launch, then look at the features of the game upon launch. It's the same old junk with a fresh coat of paint designed to trick you into purchasing a box / sub for a couple months / or heaven forbid pouring money into a game pre-launch via kickstarter promotions or promises of extra in-game rewards/recognition for supporting the game pre-launch.
Quite simply, the MMO community doesn't really understand what it wants. They think they do, but all they really know is to ask for is faster horses. This comes in the form of:
- Sandbox, because Themeparks encourage the same old vertical progression treadmill
- No Sandbox, because horizontal progression doesn't reward the unemployed guy willing to marathon for days on end for phat lewt
- Open World PVP including Full Loot PVP, because risk should be rewarded
- No Open World PVP (or without consent), because nobody wants to be trolled/camped
- Dungeon Finder, because the demographic has matured and cannot spend hours waiting for a group
- No Dungeon Finder, because it ruins the sense of community
- F2P, because all games should be free and we should sample the entire product before we decide we're willing to pay for it
- Subscription only, because it'll preserve the community by keeping the F2P'ing riff-raff out and support continued content development
- B2P, because a hybrid model worked for one franchise and therefore all games should hop on the bandwagon
- No Cash Shop, because it's pay to win
- Cash Shop, because I like pretty mounts and other cosmetic items. Plus it gives me an opportunity to support the devs
The MMO community doesn't know what it wants. I understand everyone has a different flavor, but the desires of the MMO community shift like a huge pendulum with every passing fad. It's a total waste of time to listen to someone who will latch onto the next "revolutionary" idea before their hot pocket turns room temperature.
FYI I'm not trolling. I'm fully aware than WOW-clones can be a heated term since Everquest II was the first MMO made. My apologies to the EQ fans out there.
One of the best responses I've read on this forums for quite sometime.
I nodded my head in agreement with your breakdown of just how mixed up we really are as MMO gamer, of even for that matter human beings.
I miss the old days when we hardly new shit about upcoming games. One day they just appeared at the store, we picked it up and had our socks knocked off.
Now we know way too much about the intimate details of stuff coming in 3 years. It's way too much time and why a lot of people here delude themselves into thinking that they're co-developers instead of the consumer gamers they really are.
...and then they make threads like this one.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Rockniss i was brownsing the swtor site just now. (Keep in mind I have had about a twelve pack of sam adams winter lager since 630 and its 930) at any rate, when i went to the website, its highlighted in cartel coin pricing tiers, it made me think why don't these publishers, devs, companies... yada yada yada just conform to the pricing models we enjoy, that being buy to play and sub? i went to the site and even half in the bag, it was a total turn off.
Firstly I won't judge your taste in beer , I am not a big fan in Hoppy tasting beer , I prefer malt tastes, Sam Adams 'ole' Fezzy wig or Mayflower brewery's Oat meal stout are my favorites around this time of year.
They don't care what you "WANT", they care about what you will "BUY". If you stop buying what they are selling, they may make what you want. They really want your money.
There was a time that only large mainstream breweries existed in the US, it took along time to break that paradigm to become the land of a zillion micro brews. Who could have predicted Sam Adams Brewery 20-30 years ago
There is a huge profit to be made by NOT making a slapped together WoW clone, but it's going to take investors willing to take a risk and be in for a longer term investment, rather than the short term "pump and dump" model the industry has been using.
I think most of it actually detracts from the gaming experience and it costs more money.
We used to say the same thing about the pretty graphics (detracting from immersion).
Turns out it was just multi-player onlines evolving.
Ever notice that every generation of video games, from Pong forward, has had it's share of users dragging their feet, insisting that "these are the games we enjoy, stop here". "No, you've gone too far, go back, games were better when..."
Every one.
Every auto model year. Every music genre. Every movie audience.
Reactionaries are an omnipresent force.
This is one of the better posts I've seen in a while. It's very true.
There are a couple different "we" groups we're talking about here. There is a demographic "we" that is being sold to. That is the we with certain tastes and preferences. Like Damonville said, the OP is in the wrong "we", others are in that group otherwise the games wouldn't be financially successful.
There is also a "collective we". That is a we with a unified voice. That is the "we" that I think Narius was referring to in the first couple of posts. The problem is that there aren't many collective "we"s around to sway the development and marketing machine. Until your demographic we intersects with a collective we, then your voice isn't likely to be heard. When enough demographic "we" are heard, like with Marc Jacob's CU project, then it can somewhat morph into a more collective type of we with an actual cohesive voice.
It's been said before many times. If you want your voice heard, form a collective group that has marketing potential. Or just keep making these threads over and over and over again.
This is why WE talk is often useless in these situations. I talk is much better. It address a persons concern more appropriately. We should start doing that!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Because you like coffee and I can't stand the shit. You aren't conforming to what I like.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
JP, one of the best ideas added to mmos lately. Dont like GW2? thats fine, dont like JP? thats fine, the game isnt for you. That doesnt make the game, the mechanic, nor your dislike for it stupid.
Why? I'm turning it around on you. What's so good about jump puzzles in MMOS? I find them annoying
Just because you like something doesn't make it a good mechanic.
"good" is subjective. There is no universally "good" mechanics, only those some, or many players like.
I like more actiony combat .. you don't ... is the GW2 combat mechanics good or bad? Neither. It is good for me, and bad for you. That goes with JP too. I don't like them .. but some other people do.
The main problem of the gaming industry is that they did conform. Game development in the last decade has turned into selling to the biggest market possible. This destroyed genre gaming. They followed a system of appeasement and crafted their games toward market shares. F2p is used not to be fair on the players but because they have proof they return more money by targeting who spends more money than averaging out equally over everyone drawn to the concept of the game. This is entirely conformity and has nothing to do with game concept.
I'd be very, very careful throwing around the word "conform" when finding something unique and new in mmos has been nigh impossible for nearly a decade.
JP, one of the best ideas added to mmos lately. Dont like GW2? thats fine, dont like JP? thats fine, the game isnt for you. That doesnt make the game, the mechanic, nor your dislike for it stupid.
Why? I'm turning it around on you. What's so good about jump puzzles in MMOS? I find them annoying
Just because you like something doesn't make it a good mechanic.
Jumping puzzles existing in MMOs isn't any more weird than it existing in FPS, TPS, and in just about any game that has jumping and where puzzle solving is applicable. Don't restrict the genre to the elements that you like.
Game development in the last decade has turned into selling to the biggest market possible. This destroyed genre gaming.
Where have you been?
Indie gaming is making it big .. even onto consoles. Point and click adventures are back. Puzzle games are making a come back. Genre gaming is reviving in the past few years.
I am not sure of the answer the OP is looking for but i can assure you that Free to play models cropped up because the majority of games out there would not even make it to market if not for the f2p moniker.
The most successful long standing games,EQ1 EQ2 Wow FFXI all began as subscriptions,most other games would have died even quicker than they did if they tried to pan off a sub fee.
nickle and dimeing or misleading sales pitches,it does not matter,it is the ONLY way they can get people to take notice.
I truly beleive that EVERY developer except Square Enix that now begins with a subscription fee,has full intentions of going F2p soon after launch,i do not expect anymore sub fees aside from possibly Square,maybe Blizzard expect all cash shop gaming now moving forward.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Two famous Americans have once said, “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” and ,“People don't know what they want until you show it to them.” Henry Ford being one, and Steve Jobs the other.
The MMO forum community generally consists of people who can articulate what they like and don't like. They enjoy playing armchair developer because it's easy to assume an MMO goes from concept to production to release within a few weeks/months of a great idea! Most armchair developers have little to no business sense yet insist they know how the business is run because they took a college course and/or ran a guild and assume all businesses follow the same model.
On the other hand, I share the same frustration with the rest of the MMO community. Developers have been playing it too safe and there's really little to no value in playing glorified WOW-clones. If you want WOW, play WOW. And that's what many people choose to do.
How many games/posts can you identify "WOW-killer" over the past few years and realize that the hype pre-launch never matches the post-launch sentiment towards the game. Look at the marketing terms used pre-launch, then look at the features of the game upon launch. It's the same old junk with a fresh coat of paint designed to trick you into purchasing a box / sub for a couple months / or heaven forbid pouring money into a game pre-launch via kickstarter promotions or promises of extra in-game rewards/recognition for supporting the game pre-launch.
Quite simply, the MMO community doesn't really understand what it wants. They think they do, but all they really know is to ask for is faster horses. This comes in the form of:
- Sandbox, because Themeparks encourage the same old vertical progression treadmill
- No Sandbox, because horizontal progression doesn't reward the unemployed guy willing to marathon for days on end for phat lewt
- Open World PVP including Full Loot PVP, because risk should be rewarded
- No Open World PVP (or without consent), because nobody wants to be trolled/camped
- Dungeon Finder, because the demographic has matured and cannot spend hours waiting for a group
- No Dungeon Finder, because it ruins the sense of community
- F2P, because all games should be free and we should sample the entire product before we decide we're willing to pay for it
- Subscription only, because it'll preserve the community by keeping the F2P'ing riff-raff out and support continued content development
- B2P, because a hybrid model worked for one franchise and therefore all games should hop on the bandwagon
- No Cash Shop, because it's pay to win
- Cash Shop, because I like pretty mounts and other cosmetic items. Plus it gives me an opportunity to support the devs
The MMO community doesn't know what it wants. I understand everyone has a different flavor, but the desires of the MMO community shift like a huge pendulum with every passing fad. It's a total waste of time to listen to someone who will latch onto the next "revolutionary" idea before their hot pocket turns room temperature.
FYI I'm not trolling. I'm fully aware than WOW-clones can be a heated term since Everquest II was the first MMO made. My apologies to the EQ fans out there.
I'll share my personal insights on the topic from an avid gamer and future game designer stand point.
Have been observing every mmorpg I've ever played closely to look for succeeding trends and have found some things that not everyone notices.
1. People need the grind.
Why? To keep em away from the sence of "I've achieved everything I could".
And once they DO achieve all the main things, all the grind they had to pass will give em a feeling of "I have invested too much time into this to just quit now, better go do random stuff (pvp anyone?) till the next expansion or an even more interesting game".
What I found a huge factor in keeping me going are systems. Every game has a bunch of systems you can explore (enchanting, refinery, crafting, gear fusing, some special type of gear you much create that takes certain drops or quests).
When playing a game and knowing these systems exist, you become interested and want to get to them, but game designers, knowing this weakness of the player, will make this content hard to reach. Many asian games require months of grinding to just get a shot at some systems. Are these games succesful? A damn hell they are. (WoW exploits the system-craving extremely well, I beleive that to be the main point why it's so succesful).
2. The MMORPG forum dwellers make up the minority and are usually the diehard veterans of the old age looking for Ultima 2 and whatnot. You people are not the MMORPG community, you are a forum community, a very niche one at that. Your ideals make up but a fraction of what the consumer base is and so if someone were to make a game just for you, it would be unmarketable and in the end fail to make any money. People these days are more into the system exploration and will go the extra grind mile.
3. The western community is shaky in what it wants atm, the devs are seeing that and are trying different things, EQN with more sandboxing, GW2 with no grind.
In the end, you must consider if the games we've had in the last few years were even flops. We loot at all dem million subs on asia and go like "those games didnt flop there, we should have milions too!", when in reality we dont even have the player base. There are tons of people being captive in their own little MMORPGs and they keep trying these new games, but as soon as they see that they're not worth starting more than giving up on the old game acievements, leave. Thats true for many. For those who it's not true, the people who are just rogues looking for games with nothing to fall back to - they dont even know what they really want in a game and will continue to rogue till they get interested in something particular to enter the grind-systems-too many achievements2quit cycle.
That's just some stuff I've noticed.
TL;DR - When people start some games, they get locked in it and unable to really get into new games, forum dwellers are niche and unprofitable, the western market is small and shaky.
The people who DO make the big portion of it, are the carebears that like the themeparkishness and other features that you guys hate.
I'm the hardcore player, the one that rushes lvl cap before you even finish the starting area.
everquest 2 whaa shit sorry never jumped on the eq band wagon like what ya said your right everything you saed is correct this generation of gamers are whacked there snobs and mean and not very fun to play with the communities in most mmos is like stepping in dog shit your like eww what did i just step in. i remember the das of ultima online it started this trend of mmos and somehow we gotten off track i do not know how but we did we had the start of something great and now we are full of crazy tuff talk and BLING no real new innovation much just the same old same old . Now i bring up UO yep we started with a strong strong community that worked together we did ot let the gankers run wild we hunted them down like dogs we went on red hunting raids for hrs we constantly kept in contact threw chat and at the time icq where are the reds where is the pvp and on top of that there was the trading the crafting and selling there were millions playing and we made friends and enemys and we had wars i still run across a uo player now and then talk about the glory days and we chuckle and agree we spend little to no time in a good mmo or strong community well i hope these new games can make a strong interaction system where players must talk and help and battle each other
Two famous Americans have once said, “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” and ,“People don't know what they want until you show it to them.” Henry Ford being one, and Steve Jobs the other.
...snip
Can I just break the illusion that Jobs was some mastermind for a minute. He was a guy full of himself who stole from other companies. The only design he wanted was minimal with a high price tag. His menus were too deep and the move to icons without explanation are bad UI design that is termed mystery meat navigation. He was a sheister who sold beautiful as more intuitive. The guy was a drug fanatic and denied his own offspring because it would get in the way of his "vision". He was also mean and rude and lied to his own friends about money he got to make things cheating HIS OWN FRIENDS out of it. His sainthood only exists in the mind of Apple fanatics and he didn't design anything, he overworked other people to do it. When production became large enough he exported the process to third world countries yet kept the price for his goods higher than everyone else and kept all the profits. Everyone that knew him has bad stories to tell about him, he doesn't deserve the high praise he gets. He stole and didn't innovate anything. This is what he would have happily sold you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA and it would have cost 3 times the price of any other system.
On topic, we do all want different things and Indie creators are the future.
What you just described is just exactly what Jobs is, A Human being. A human being that understand what human beings are like. Flawed and full of vanity.
Therefore he is the perfect example of success.
Just look at the products he brings out, Iphone , Iphone 2 Iphone 3 iphone 4, iphone 4s ....etc
Each with only an small improvement over the other, but people would still line up for days just to get one.
Its because he understands that People wants status not technology, we want to stroke our own egos. So he made Apple the brand name of High Class just like those designer bags that people blow thousands of dollars for.
Its just like MMO developers, they understand that all humans just want to stroke their own egos, and we don't know how, therefore they keep making things easier and more gratifying and we just keep eating it up.
There is no we in MMO gaming or anywhere at all, because we all have different opinions regardless of evidence.
If I go inside a room full of people of different ethnicity and sex, I can walk in , kill a person and walk out, there will be as many different versions of what happened as there are people in that room and they all saw the same event at the same time.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Comments
One thread telling people to accept games for what they are (it's read and answered as people should conform to the games available). Another thread asking that devs conform their games more toward the desires we see stated around here.
The former was answered with a big FU to the op, "how dare he advise us to give up the fight and accept a mediocre genre".
The latter is answered by telling the op to accept he's in a minority, people don't want his type of game. Which is essentially excusing the common dev practices. As well as accepting the "mediocrity" of the genre.
I don't know if it's the same people giving these highly contradictory answers or not, it very well may not be, but it sure is telling on just how mixed of a message you find on this forum.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Agreed 100%. There is no "we".
MMO developers should always have their own vision, their ideal game, their dream game. Publishers kill that dream because they only care about making as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time. That has been hurting non-mmos as well lately. They can always create things that players like, as long as their own vision of the game is not affected negatively by that decision or by the publishers' thirst for quick money.
Is there anyone that actually likes jump puzzles in their MMO?
Personally, I think its one of the stupidest additions to grace this genre. If I wanted to platform, I'd buy a platformer. You know, a game thats actually designed for jumping as opposed to MMO jumping which is always clunky and causes rendering issues.
not a serious question.... but ill answer
JP, one of the best ideas added to mmos lately. Dont like GW2? thats fine, dont like JP? thats fine, the game isnt for you. That doesnt make the game, the mechanic, nor your dislike for it stupid.
Why? I'm turning it around on you. What's so good about jump puzzles in MMOS? I find them annoying
Just because you like something doesn't make it a good mechanic.
Because games take longer to make than consumer trends usually last, which means game development is often an exercise is anticipating what people will want two years from now, rather than what they want right now. MMO's are even worse at this because they take much longer to develop.
There's also the little issue that just because people think they want something, doesn't mean they really want it. What's worse is that no matter what you do, there will always be people that don't like it and, unfortunately, they will become the new vocal minority that makes it seem worse than it is.
World of Warcraft is a great example of this topic. For the first two expansions, the dev's were pretty clear that they were not basing the game direction or mechanics or anything on popular opinion. People wanted dungeon finders, quicker access to mounts, less time spent drinking water to regain mana, less trash in dungeons, etc.. Eventually, when Activision and Blizzard merged, that all changed. Suddenly, all these features and changes that had been requested over the years were seemingly fast-tracked into the game.
And if you just go talk to current players or browse the forums, you wouldn't know that the community asked for all of this because people are complaining about it.
Lastly, I doubt any of you could honestly say that if you were in charge of a game, you wouldn't design it the way you think it should be, based on your vision, rather than what people on the internet are saying what they think it should be.
You make me like charity
it went straight back to you.... you are implying that just because you find them annoying that makes them bad.....
In GW2 there are a lot of JP, many are good and fun, but many others arent very good. I think there is room to make really better ones. Also, i would love to see the jumping puzzle mechanics in other parts of the game that involves grouping for PvE/PvP content, not just reaching out to a hidden chest.
Overall it is a good mechanic that works well, like it or not. Its a fact. Its my opinion that i love them and that they are amazing, but its a fact that they are a good mechanic and it works very well.
This is the exact problem. They ARE conforming EXACTLY to what the players "want". The problem is the players THINK they want X, but they in fact want Y. People are overall not very smart, there is a reason why people regret tons of decisions they make, and thats because most of them suck. They sound good on paper, or in your head, but in practice are fucking terrible. Look at things like communism, justin bieber, new kids on the block, pet rocks, etc.
There are mountains of evidence that the LAST thing you want to do is listen to the will of the people, epecially in regards to entertainment stuff. All the best things that have come out, whether its a song of ice and fire, or star wars, or stargate, etc, all came from the minds of creative geniuses who wrote/created what THEY thought was awesome. There is not 1 example of something created as a result of data mining/analysis and customer feedback. It always always fails.
This guy has hit it right on the nailhead, couldnt possibly be more right. Minus the steve jobs part, that guy is a fucking IP thief. But, you know. whatever."The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
One of the best responses I've read on this forums for quite sometime.
I nodded my head in agreement with your breakdown of just how mixed up we really are as MMO gamer, of even for that matter human beings.
A: $$$
I miss the old days when we hardly new shit about upcoming games. One day they just appeared at the store, we picked it up and had our socks knocked off.
Now we know way too much about the intimate details of stuff coming in 3 years. It's way too much time and why a lot of people here delude themselves into thinking that they're co-developers instead of the consumer gamers they really are.
...and then they make threads like this one.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Firstly I won't judge your taste in beer , I am not a big fan in Hoppy tasting beer , I prefer malt tastes, Sam Adams 'ole' Fezzy wig or Mayflower brewery's Oat meal stout are my favorites around this time of year.
They don't care what you "WANT", they care about what you will "BUY". If you stop buying what they are selling, they may make what you want. They really want your money.
There was a time that only large mainstream breweries existed in the US, it took along time to break that paradigm to become the land of a zillion micro brews. Who could have predicted Sam Adams Brewery 20-30 years ago
There is a huge profit to be made by NOT making a slapped together WoW clone, but it's going to take investors willing to take a risk and be in for a longer term investment, rather than the short term "pump and dump" model the industry has been using.
have fun
This is why WE talk is often useless in these situations. I talk is much better. It address a persons concern more appropriately. We should start doing that!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
For a certain definition of "we", they do.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"good" is subjective. There is no universally "good" mechanics, only those some, or many players like.
I like more actiony combat .. you don't ... is the GW2 combat mechanics good or bad? Neither. It is good for me, and bad for you. That goes with JP too. I don't like them .. but some other people do.
The main problem of the gaming industry is that they did conform. Game development in the last decade has turned into selling to the biggest market possible. This destroyed genre gaming. They followed a system of appeasement and crafted their games toward market shares. F2p is used not to be fair on the players but because they have proof they return more money by targeting who spends more money than averaging out equally over everyone drawn to the concept of the game. This is entirely conformity and has nothing to do with game concept.
I'd be very, very careful throwing around the word "conform" when finding something unique and new in mmos has been nigh impossible for nearly a decade.
You stay sassy!
Jumping puzzles existing in MMOs isn't any more weird than it existing in FPS, TPS, and in just about any game that has jumping and where puzzle solving is applicable. Don't restrict the genre to the elements that you like.
Where have you been?
Indie gaming is making it big .. even onto consoles. Point and click adventures are back. Puzzle games are making a come back. Genre gaming is reviving in the past few years.
I am not sure of the answer the OP is looking for but i can assure you that Free to play models cropped up because the majority of games out there would not even make it to market if not for the f2p moniker.
The most successful long standing games,EQ1 EQ2 Wow FFXI all began as subscriptions,most other games would have died even quicker than they did if they tried to pan off a sub fee.
nickle and dimeing or misleading sales pitches,it does not matter,it is the ONLY way they can get people to take notice.
I truly beleive that EVERY developer except Square Enix that now begins with a subscription fee,has full intentions of going F2p soon after launch,i do not expect anymore sub fees aside from possibly Square,maybe Blizzard expect all cash shop gaming now moving forward.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'll share my personal insights on the topic from an avid gamer and future game designer stand point.
Have been observing every mmorpg I've ever played closely to look for succeeding trends and have found some things that not everyone notices.
1. People need the grind.
Why? To keep em away from the sence of "I've achieved everything I could".
And once they DO achieve all the main things, all the grind they had to pass will give em a feeling of "I have invested too much time into this to just quit now, better go do random stuff (pvp anyone?) till the next expansion or an even more interesting game".
What I found a huge factor in keeping me going are systems. Every game has a bunch of systems you can explore (enchanting, refinery, crafting, gear fusing, some special type of gear you much create that takes certain drops or quests).
When playing a game and knowing these systems exist, you become interested and want to get to them, but game designers, knowing this weakness of the player, will make this content hard to reach. Many asian games require months of grinding to just get a shot at some systems. Are these games succesful? A damn hell they are. (WoW exploits the system-craving extremely well, I beleive that to be the main point why it's so succesful).
2. The MMORPG forum dwellers make up the minority and are usually the diehard veterans of the old age looking for Ultima 2 and whatnot. You people are not the MMORPG community, you are a forum community, a very niche one at that. Your ideals make up but a fraction of what the consumer base is and so if someone were to make a game just for you, it would be unmarketable and in the end fail to make any money. People these days are more into the system exploration and will go the extra grind mile.
3. The western community is shaky in what it wants atm, the devs are seeing that and are trying different things, EQN with more sandboxing, GW2 with no grind.
In the end, you must consider if the games we've had in the last few years were even flops. We loot at all dem million subs on asia and go like "those games didnt flop there, we should have milions too!", when in reality we dont even have the player base. There are tons of people being captive in their own little MMORPGs and they keep trying these new games, but as soon as they see that they're not worth starting more than giving up on the old game acievements, leave. Thats true for many. For those who it's not true, the people who are just rogues looking for games with nothing to fall back to - they dont even know what they really want in a game and will continue to rogue till they get interested in something particular to enter the grind-systems-too many achievements2quit cycle.
That's just some stuff I've noticed.
TL;DR - When people start some games, they get locked in it and unable to really get into new games, forum dwellers are niche and unprofitable, the western market is small and shaky.
The people who DO make the big portion of it, are the carebears that like the themeparkishness and other features that you guys hate.
I'm the hardcore player, the one that rushes lvl cap before you even finish the starting area.
What you just described is just exactly what Jobs is, A Human being. A human being that understand what human beings are like. Flawed and full of vanity.
Therefore he is the perfect example of success.
Just look at the products he brings out, Iphone , Iphone 2 Iphone 3 iphone 4, iphone 4s ....etc
Each with only an small improvement over the other, but people would still line up for days just to get one.
Its because he understands that People wants status not technology, we want to stroke our own egos. So he made Apple the brand name of High Class just like those designer bags that people blow thousands of dollars for.
Its just like MMO developers, they understand that all humans just want to stroke their own egos, and we don't know how, therefore they keep making things easier and more gratifying and we just keep eating it up.
There is no we in MMO gaming or anywhere at all, because we all have different opinions regardless of evidence.
If I go inside a room full of people of different ethnicity and sex, I can walk in , kill a person and walk out, there will be as many different versions of what happened as there are people in that room and they all saw the same event at the same time.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.