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The great PVP vs. PVE debate

anarchyartanarchyart Member Posts: 5,378
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

I was an old time UO player. I loved the guild wars (not the game Guild Wars, but wars between guilds in UO) and the good times that could be had in the dungeons between those hunting mobs and those hunting people. It was a real adrenaline rush just leaving your house sometimes! There were only two types of players: the quick and the dead.

However I had an equal amount of fun exploring, socializing and fighting mobs (PVE), just that it is a different type of fun. Banding together with your friends and setting out to a dungeon, intent on exploring and travelling deeper than you ever had before and defeating fearsome creatures that would make other players tremble with fear.

It is just a lot easier to make well balanced PVE than it is to make well balanced, fair and fun PVP. That having been said, shouldn't we be expecting more out of developers nowadays? Has technology advanced faster than dev's abilities to facilitate complicated yet balanced PVP schemes and functionality? Do you even care about PVP, just so long as the game is fun?

On the flipside of the coin, is attacking other players the only way you can find a game fun? Doesn't an intriguing storyline, lush vibrant graphics and amazing play mechanics equal a good game if you can't attack someone with whom you disagree?

I present you this only to make you think about what makes a game fun, and what it is about yourself that coincides with that. Does spoiling someone elses fun equal your fun? Does grouping with others to perform the impossible, to you equal a good time? Is PVP anti-social and PVP social or is that too simplistic a look at it? Is it just more challenging and rewarding to defeat a human foe than a human designed creature with a fixed set of responses?

I happen to love both PVE and PVP, and can have fun with either. Why can some people not have fun with either side?

 

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Comments

  • GrayShadowGrayShadow Member Posts: 53

    Hardcore PvE players are disenchanted with PvP because they abhor the thought of being ganked while grinding/questing/raiding, and they honestly believe that PvP unbalances an otherwise good game. Likewise, some have had bad experienes with true jerks in PvP and don't like the fact that someone can kill/grief them without their consent

    Hardcore PvP players dislike PvEers because they want the freedom of an open PvP game for either RP, Lore, or to grief people, because they want the challenge of going head to head with other players, or simply because they find PvE to be mindless grinding, and lastly they feel that sometimes PvE (aka raiding) gets in the way of Class balance.

    Both groups are right. There are total PvP jerks who will gank you, and camp you all day, just because they can, and there are haughty PvE Carebear douche bags who can't stand the thought that their Uber Leet Items of Death cannot hide the fact that they have no idea how to play the game, and that the only reason they have advanced so far is because they do nothing else.

    On the other hand, there good people on both sides of the issue. A game can be good if built soley for one or the other, but I guarantee you the next awesome game I buy will have both.

    Cheers,
    Gray Shadow

  • Jimmy_ScytheJimmy_Scythe Member CommonPosts: 3,586

    Good poll!!

    From the results, almost 80% of us just don't care. We like one or the other but can live with either. It's only a small number of macho-insecure trolls that keep this thing going.

  • ZorgoZorgo Member UncommonPosts: 2,254

    I"m hoping that developers will look at some refining points in their future games. I think in the early days, a grab bag game with aspects of pvp and pve made sense, because there weren't a lot of games to choose from. I think a smarter idea for the future would be to create mmorpg's that even further define their perameters.

    We already see it happening in games. Games like Guild Wars focuses on pvp and instancing. For those that like these aspects, they may choose that game, where others may find EQ2 more to their liking due to the lack of emphasis on pvp (at least currently). The next step, imo, would be to further diversify games. Have a pvp EQ and a pve EQ...similar worlds with different machanics to cater to the appropriate audience.

    Perhaps we are seeing this come true too with servers that have different rule sets. However, the difference would be that the current games essentially use the same game and tweek aspects to apply to pve or pvp. I'm talking about designing the same world, same char graphics and storyline, but build the character mechanics seperately. One team build a pvp world, one build a pve world and release them as seperate titles. I think this may be a smart plan for the future, because as we gamers learn what we enjoy playing, I believe we will begin to demand games that cater to our specific desires.

    Some of these ideas are starting to come true, but I think we will see fewer games in the future having to make the decision to have pve, pvp or both, because games will further begin to focus on more specific audiences.

  • ThriftThrift Member Posts: 1,783
    Humm PvP and PvE, I sit on the fence with this topic ... When I played world of warcraft I made a rogue thinking that Im going to PvP in the end but the longer and longer I played I though PvE>PvP. So I rerolled as a priest but when I got to the same level as my rogue I hated PvE and thought I just want to PvP... So what Im saying is some days I like PvE and other days I will just PvP, oh and I hated some of the instence too image
  • nstarunnstarun Member Posts: 4

    I think PvP has potential to be more entertaining than any PvE could ever be simply because competing against a human being, though not always more challenging than an AI opponent, is more, well, human. I think the major problem some people have with the way PvP action is portrayed in many current games is that certain players have reached such astronomically advanced levels that it becomes impossible to compete, and thus very boring.

    Hardcore players should be rewarded for their dedication to a game, but they shouldn't become invulnerable to casual players.

  • DaKrackaDaKracka Member Posts: 15
      It seems that most of the people who just can't seem to find that perfect game they like and could call home for years to come seem to be UO vets. (not poiting any fingers) because i have the exact same feeling about every game i've played since i left UO 3 years ago. I'm a huge pvp fanboi but i enjoy pve alot also. I think what uo vets seems to realize is that all the games coming out are just that, GAMES..with storylines and all that other good rpg stuff, and what made UO so different was that it was not a game. It was a virtual world with no goal or objectives to conquer but just live a life day to day and do whatever you want when you want. And as someone mention a few posts up about making the same game but one as pvp then another as pve is what uo was rolled all in one. You had tram for the hardcore carebears who only wanted to sit at bank and socialize and show off gear. And then there was felluca.. an exact spitting image of tram but with diff rules. there was no need for a whole diff server it was all right there and it was your choice to live your virtual life as you wanted. I miss it, i really do. But i'll continue to put faith in these new aged mmo's and day after day i'll continue to be let down.
  • scaramooshscaramoosh Member Posts: 3,424
    PVE AI sucks : Whats the point?

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    Don't click here...no2

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818

    Originally posted by GrayShadow
    Hardcore PvE players are disenchanted with PvP because they abhor the thought of being ganked while grinding/questing/raiding, and they honestly believe that PvP unbalances an otherwise good game. Likewise, some have had bad experienes with true jerks in PvP and don't like the fact that someone can kill/grief them without their consentHardcore PvP players dislike PvEers because they want the freedom of an open PvP game for either RP, Lore, or to grief people, because they want the challenge of going head to head with other players, or simply because they find PvE to be mindless grinding, and lastly they feel that sometimes PvE (aka raiding) gets in the way of Class balance.Both groups are right. There are total PvP jerks who will gank you, and camp you all day, just because they're can, and there are haughty PvE Carebear douche bags who can't stand the thought that their Uber Leet Items of Death cannot hide the fact that they have no idea how to play the game, and that the only reason they have advanced so far is because they do nothing else.On the other hand, there good people on both sides of the issue. A game can be good if built soley for one or the other, but I guarantee you the next awesome game I buy will have both.Cheers,
    Gray Shadow

    Nice post.

    I'm more of a PvEer myself but I do like having the option of going out and being bait ( dieing in PvP is about all I'm good at ::::01:: )
    What has always bugged me about PvP is, it's almost never balanced. Most changes to classes are not because players kill the PvE content too easily, it's because PvPer's find some way to make a class overpowered ( I don't mean exploits, just weapon/skill combos the devs didn't realize would be so powerfull in the hands of a good player )
    So as a PvEer you tend to build your character and are happy with how it works, then along comes the PvP "fix" and you're nolonger what you where.
    I understand why PvP needs to be balanced, and why in a PvP game classes will get nerfed more often then a PvE only game. I just wish the devs could do a better job of finid the overkill skills before launch. It will of course never happen.

  • GrayShadowGrayShadow Member Posts: 53

    I think the only way to truly balance PvE and PvP (as much as it can be balanced anyway) is to either A. Reduce player choice and variables (No thanks =) ) or B. Adapt Mobs to use PC skills, tactics etc. Ever notice how most Bosses are Dragons or Demons (beasts of unusual size)? Make some bosses with player classes/skills, have them be more than a pile of HP, DMG and a few unique spells.

    Make them use stealth, cunning, special attacks, etc that keep players off-balance, and have them sometimes use completely different tactics than usual. Throw in unlabeled "exceptional" creatures with the normals... One second you're tearing through orcs, then all of a sudden one is using moves the others haven't been using, and studdenly you have to change strategies... would be kind of cool.

    Cheers,
    Gray Shadow

  • shaeshae Member Posts: 2,509

    Good post Anarchyart.

    Personally, whats important to me in an MMO is a game that brings it's community together and gives me a "point" to playing, whether thats with PvE or PvP. I mean seriously, have we not had enough of the stale, stagnant games that go on and on without changing no matter what it's player does.

    When it comes down to it, I really like good PvE challenges, I want those really cool long quest with twists and turns around every corner, I love (as you said) delving in the deeps of dungeons, cutting a swath past creepy crawlers, keep my friends alive with my light touches of priestyness. PvP, well, I've never been really good at it in the games I've played with PvP but I'm certainly seen and had the fun, so if there's a point to it, other then just picking on some poor person, I'm all for it.

    Bottom line, give me a story driven PvE or PvP experience any day over since tirely PvE grind or PvP gank fest. I'm quite seriously eagerly waiting for these development teams to figure out that they need to make MMO's fun again. Forget paranoid delusions of balance, bring me the good times and you'll get my money.

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  • ParepinParepin Member UncommonPosts: 257

    PvP presents the challange of defending yourself.

    Players have better AI than NPC's.

    Open combat brings communitys closer than ever (as viewed within a guild). You either bind together or die.

    These "RvR" communitys are far from being "close", they push people away more than they bring them together.

    Restrictions lead to fake role playing that can not be backed up.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818

    Originally posted by -Xaero-
    Players have better AI than NPC's.

    lol

  • HashmanHashman Member Posts: 649

    I think it's about choice. PvE will always be there, that's the core of whatever game you refer too. But PvP is not always part of the game, it's missing entirely in some. When PvP is part of a game, how much do you want it to affect other elements of the game? PvP'ers have to do PvE in order to simply be better at PvP, whether it's getting a better ship/mount/weapon/spell/shield etc. through raiding or some mindless quest. You will never loot an uber sword or whatever from a player. Give players choice, either have separate servers or zones where you can't PvP. If a carbear PvE moans and bitches because they got ganked in a PvP game, then you have to wander why they play it! Anyway few games out there now have harsh death rules so most of the time it feels like you PvE anyway.

  • DaKrackaDaKracka Member Posts: 15


    Nice post.
    I'm more of a PvEer myself but I do like having the option of going out and being bait ( dieing in PvP is about all I'm good at ::::01:: )
    What has always bugged me about PvP is, it's almost never balanced. Most changes to classes are not because players kill the PvE content too easily, it's because PvPer's find some way to make a class overpowered ( I don't mean exploits, just weapon/skill combos the devs didn't realize would be so powerfull in the hands of a good player )
    So as a PvEer you tend to build your character and are happy with how it works, then along comes the PvP "fix" and you're nolonger what you where.
    I understand why PvP needs to be balanced, and why in a PvP game classes will get nerfed more often then a PvE only game. I just wish the devs could do a better job of finid the overkill skills before launch. It will of course never happen.


      The best way to fix balancing problems is to make a game skill based. So everyone has all the exact same choices of skill to use but your limited to the number you can train. For example: you start playing a game and right from the start you have a list of say 60 diff skills ranging from crafting to magic to weapons and healing etc... but your limited to haveing no more than 8 skills. This gives you great flexability on what role your character plays in the world.. be an all out pvp/pve skilled guy or go for crafting skills or even mix it up a bit. And it makes every character truely unique and no more cookie cutter toons. Eliminated the lvl grinding and the HUGE race to always see who can hit the level cap the fastest. The next game to do this and suceed will hold the MMO crown for years to come picking up where UO left off.
  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    As long as it is GBT, I am all for PvP.

     

    Real time, bring the PvE!  image

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • KjarlKjarl Member Posts: 76

    The reason I said I like PvE and cant stand PvP (which isnt true but that was all the poll would allow) is that PvP is so totally unrealistic that its just not fun. You see people jumping around bunny hopper style and doing all kinds of really stupid crap that you wouldnt dream of doing in a fight all because of game mechanics. Some one doing all that jumping, "running through the other person" and all the other crap has never been in a real fight. For one thing you cant swing a sword and then pass right through your opponent and spin around to try a back stab.

    http://world5.monstersgame.co.uk/?ac=vid&vid=59148058

  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,414

    I don't mind pvp just as long as thier are consequences for constantly ganking; like a bounty system.

  • SpiritofGameSpiritofGame Member UncommonPosts: 1,332


    Originally posted by Kjarl

    The reason I said I like PvE and cant stand PvP (which isnt true but that was all the poll would allow) is that PvP is so totally unrealistic that its just not fun. You see people jumping around bunny hopper style and doing all kinds of really stupid crap that you wouldnt dream of doing in a fight all because of game mechanics. Some one doing all that jumping, "running through the other person" and all the other crap has never been in a real fight. For one thing you cant swing a sword and then pass right through your opponent and spin around to try a back stab.

    Yep, that is so true.

    I like PvP, but it's hardly "more challenging" than PvE -- however it does feel more exciting.  PvE combat I have always felt was the "bread and butter" activity to earn gold and find items.  PvP is where the fun is at.

    However, most PvP is ruined by bunny-hopping, exploit-using nerds.

    But, here ... this explains it better:

    http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip069.html

    ~ Ancient Membership ~

  • a328acea328ace Member Posts: 7

    i am sort of a noob when it comes to mmorpg's. i just started playing CoH about 5 months ago. i had alot of fun playing it, even though it was PvE (exept for in the arena) now, with the realease of CoV, there are PvP cities you can go to at any time. i do like going there everyonce in a while,but dont spend my majority of time there. my brother on the other hand, hasnt been to a PvE zone in about a month. so i like PvE more, but do play PvP on occasion. ::::01::

  • StedfastStedfast Member Posts: 101
    PVP is like dueling some of us have out grown it. It's the school yard bully thing. Most of the time there is no rhyme or reason behind it. In SWG had it really been battles between Rebel and Imperial forces that would of been one thing. Usually though it was chaos, and boiled down to the same faction dueling. In WOW it was pretty much the same. As a matter of fact on most servers in most games that I've experienced. PVE tends to be the bread and butter as one put it earlier.image
  • DarkmastershDarkmastersh Member Posts: 205

    100% PvE MMORPGs is for girls. Why in hell would you spend hundreds or thousands of hours if you cant prove that "other guy" you are way better than him.

    In PVE games is like:

    -"Hey n00b Im better thn j00"
    -"No way Ive got Att 16495
    -"Pfff but I got 3345125 HP"
    -"Oh really? I killed 5 dragons at the same time!"
    -"So? I bet I can kill 10 dragons being AFK"
    "Nah, I dont think so"

    *3 hours later

    -"see? Ive got $89 mil"
    -"yeah but my equipment is way better then yours"
    -"yeah wutever........"
    -"You cant even kill a Demon"
    -"Of course I can! lets go to Mount Doom so I can prove it"
    -"Nah, its going to take me 45 mins"
    -"Hahaha youre not powerful enough to kill a Demon!!!!!!"
    -"I dont have enough time, Im going to a party"

    *Conversation ends

    In PvP games:

    -"Im a beautiful elf"
    -"huh? WTF?!?!?!"
    -"Im the bestest! you cant stand against me!"
    -"STFU B**ch"

    *Player 2 kills player 1 and keeps all his equipment and money so he can learn not to be a n00b wannabe, he realizes his life is pathetic and commits suicide the next day.

    Well that was cruel, but I really hate those wannabes!

    ::::40::

  • KjarlKjarl Member Posts: 76

    And if this is the only means you have in life to "prove" yourself then what a pathetic existance it must be.

    Player 1, Im better than you nOObs.

    Player 2, /ignore player 1.


    Life goes on. I mean do you really give a crap about what some netmonkey thinks? Cuz in the really real world Im 6'2 300 lbs and there are 2 things that keep people in the really real world from talking crap to me. Fear and common sense.

    Now this is not a "My dad can beat up your dad kinda thing" Or "Im tougher than all you put together" But more along the lines of, "Till you can man up and stand toe to toe with me, move on"

    And in the true Gump tradition, thats all I got ta say about that.

    http://world5.monstersgame.co.uk/?ac=vid&vid=59148058

  • DhaemanDhaeman Member Posts: 531

    It's not that I don't enjoy PvE, it's just that it's not a challenge and because of that it isn't very rewarding. Despite that I chose "I like PvP but have fun with either". There have been raid bosses I've encountered that have definately proven to be challenging but typically it takes going through at least an hour of mindless regular mobs to get there.

    Great group PvP battles though are immensely entertaining. You may utilize similar tactics to win the battle but with PvP you may actually lose and in games such as Shadowbane, Ultima Online, Eve Online, etc. losing means a lot more than an exp drop. This is what sets PvP apart from competitive games such as FPS or RTS. If you lose an FPS or RTS match, no big deal because you just play again and get better. You lose in a dynamic PvP set world, things really do change. And that makes the battles that much more exciting. However, in PvE it is all just a matter of time before you win and for the most part it's fairly mindless. Now if the PvE always felt like a real adventure (as in things changed after your quest) then I would enjoy it as much as I did PvP.

    In other words, what I look for is primarily, a sense of immersion from the world being affected by each and every action and secondly, a challenge with the very real possibility of me losing. PvE so far has been a mindless grind in which neither requirement has been fulfilled. Some PvP systems offer a strong sense of immersion but unfortunately due few people enjoying fair small fights there isn't always an easily accessible challenge aspect. The great thing about PvE is you don't need as many willing participants but the bad thing is that it's a lot harder for a developer to create an equally challenging experience as one would find in PvP.

  • anarchyartanarchyart Member Posts: 5,378


    Originally posted by Darkmastersh

    100% PvE MMORPGs is for girls. Why in hell would you spend hundreds or thousands of hours if you cant prove that "other guy" you are way better than him.
    In PVE games is like:
    -"Hey n00b Im better thn j00"
    -"No way Ive got Att 16495
    -"Pfff but I got 3345125 HP"
    -"Oh really? I killed 5 dragons at the same time!"
    -"So? I bet I can kill 10 dragons being AFK"
    "Nah, I dont think so"
    *3 hours later
    -"see? Ive got $89 mil"
    -"yeah but my equipment is way better then yours"
    -"yeah wutever........"
    -"You cant even kill a Demon"
    -"Of course I can! lets go to Mount Doom so I can prove it"
    -"Nah, its going to take me 45 mins"
    -"Hahaha youre not powerful enough to kill a Demon!!!!!!"
    -"I dont have enough time, Im going to a party"
    *Conversation ends
    In PvP games:
    -"Im a beautiful elf"
    -"huh? WTF?!?!?!"
    -"Im the bestest! you cant stand against me!"
    -"STFU B**ch"
    *Player 2 kills player 1 and keeps all his equipment and money so he can learn not to be a n00b wannabe, he realizes his life is pathetic and commits suicide the next day.
    Well that was cruel, but I really hate those wannabes!
    ::::40::

    Wow. Please don't play Vanguard.

    image
  • GungaDinGungaDin Member UncommonPosts: 514

    Honestly, I"m getting fed up with this PVP vs PVE discussion.  I started with Ultima Online in 1998 and have played up to SWG/WOW and COV.  I'm back to a 1998 version of Ultima Online.  Even though the graphics arent spectacular, the gameplay is far superior to any of the MMORPGS today.   I agree with one of the above posters. Even though there was Griefing, Stealing, Corpse Looting, Player Killing and Scamming, I still prefer it.  All those evil factors together gave the game a certain element of excitement.  You always had to be on your toes and watching your back.  Everyone you met you thought " Friend or Foe " .  The more open PVP sytle of UO was fun as hell.  Even when you got ganked it wasnt that big of a deal.  One day you would be on the other end of that. 

    I'm sick of the PVE aspect being the main point of all the games today.  I"m sick of the games being spoon fed to us.  NO griefing, no blah blah blah.  The whinners have ruined it for us.  Everyone is afraid to make a game with any balls now.  Oh well.  UO for now.

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