Originally posted by Dauntis Full loot pvp will not help your economy, sure it is valid that if you lose things crating would be more important. However, your player base would be so small and full of murdering ganksters, no one would mess with crafting.
Hehe full loot is what makes the economy possible... without it, people wouldnt be in constant need of new items, and thats what sparks trading between players and makes crafters high in demand... Also, the risk of transporting items/resources would help regulate the prices, and it would make playstyles like the highway bandit viable...
Full loot PVP mean item go from someone's hand to another , it don't consume which no good for "crafting economy"
Item decay (consume) do .
And when you bring up transporting , it have to go with weight + inventory space manage .
Without said that we need better crafting system where the produce not copy/paste of other.
Item decay only won't work. You need either full loot or items get destroyed on death. And open PVP in some fashion.
PVE and item decay will work until you add pve players in the mix.
You can still have items permanently lose durability or break on death in a PvE game. The problem is that most PvE players are not going to play that sort of game. They become too attached to their gear will not risk losing it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
The only price regulation that is required is competition. As long as many crafters are competing to sell the same product, then price gouging will be extremely rare or nonexistent.
Now, as a side note, there's still one point of failure that can make price gouging possible and that's by concentrating too many rare resources in too small an area. If it's an open PVP game, then this will allow one group of powerful people to control all of that resource, and then they can charge whatever they want for those resources.
So basically, resources need to be decentralized and the ability to craft items needs to be available to whomever wants to craft it. I personally prefer a skill based system, whether time oriented or effort oriented, to level and class based systems, but that's just a personal preference.
Lastly, there really needs to be a LOT of craftable items for a crafting centered game to work well. If there are too few things to make, then many would-be crafters will be crowded out due to non competitive prices. Having a lot of things that can be crafted, with no one thing having a clear advantage, will allow crafters to focus on certain areas of production and be profitable.
The only price regulation that is required is competition. As long as many crafters are competing to sell the same product, then price gouging will be extremely rare or nonexistent.
Now, as a side note, there's still one point of failure that can make price gouging possible and that's by concentrating too many rare resources in too small an area. If it's an open PVP game, then this will allow one group of powerful people to control all of that resource, and then they can charge whatever they want for those resources.
So basically, resources need to be decentralized and the ability to craft items needs to be available to whomever wants to craft it. I personally prefer a skill based system, whether time oriented or effort oriented, to level and class based systems, but that's just a personal preference.
Lastly, there really needs to be a LOT of craftable items for a crafting centered game to work well. If there are too few things to make, then many would-be crafters will be crowded out due to non competitive prices. Having a lot of things that can be crafted, with no one thing having a clear advantage, will allow crafters to focus on certain areas of production and be profitable.
Well whats the point of having different resources if everything is going to be available everywhere... There should be localized resource spots that warrant being controlled by a guild, but I agree there should be more than one... each region should have a special resource that cant be found anywhere else, with some common resources sprinkled here and there that can be found in mutliple places... The prices will regulate themselves as multiple crafters or gatherers try to sell their stuff on a distant region to make a profit..
Originally posted by Dauntis Full loot pvp will not help your economy, sure it is valid that if you lose things crating would be more important. However, your player base would be so small and full of murdering ganksters, no one would mess with crafting.
Hehe full loot is what makes the economy possible... without it, people wouldnt be in constant need of new items, and thats what sparks trading between players and makes crafters high in demand... Also, the risk of transporting items/resources would help regulate the prices, and it would make playstyles like the highway bandit viable...
Full loot PVP mean item go from someone's hand to another , it don't consume which no good for "crafting economy"
Item decay (consume) do .
And when you bring up transporting , it have to go with weight + inventory space manage .
Without said that we need better crafting system where the produce not copy/paste of other.
Item decay only won't work. You need either full loot or items get destroyed on death. And open PVP in some fashion.
PVE and item decay will work until you add pve players in the mix.
You can still have items permanently lose durability or break on death in a PvE game. The problem is that most PvE players are not going to play that sort of game. They become too attached to their gear will not risk losing it.
You are forgetting that most PvP players are the same. Nobody is willing to risk anything.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Dauntis Full loot pvp will not help your economy, sure it is valid that if you lose things crating would be more important. However, your player base would be so small and full of murdering ganksters, no one would mess with crafting.
Hehe full loot is what makes the economy possible... without it, people wouldnt be in constant need of new items, and thats what sparks trading between players and makes crafters high in demand... Also, the risk of transporting items/resources would help regulate the prices, and it would make playstyles like the highway bandit viable...
Full loot PVP mean item go from someone's hand to another , it don't consume which no good for "crafting economy"
Item decay (consume) do .
And when you bring up transporting , it have to go with weight + inventory space manage .
Without said that we need better crafting system where the produce not copy/paste of other.
Item decay only won't work. You need either full loot or items get destroyed on death. And open PVP in some fashion.
PVE and item decay will work until you add pve players in the mix.
You can still have items permanently lose durability or break on death in a PvE game. The problem is that most PvE players are not going to play that sort of game. They become too attached to their gear will not risk losing it.
Thats why themeparks cant have an economy, because PvE players dont want to lose that shiny new pixel EVER... in a crafting centric game, instead of having 1 ultimate gear you have multiple gear sets to replace the ones you lose... If you dont lose your gear, the economy cannot move... and dont tell me its just "changing hands" and not being destroyed because that means you have to replace it anyways, or are you going to look for the player that killed you and ask for your gear back? lol
Also I forgot an important point some ppl have pointed out already, interdependence... you should have limited points so you cant craft EVERYTHING there is ingame, while also gathering everything, and being a mounted mage... that way you specialize in a type of crafting (assuming the crafting system is that deep) so you cant do everything by yourself... Look at Darkfall, everyone can craft I think and the economy is non existent..
Thats why themeparks cant have an economy, because PvE players dont want to lose that shiny new pixel EVER... in a crafting centric game, instead of having 1 ultimate gear you have multiple gear sets to replace the ones you lose... If you dont lose your gear, the economy cannot move... and dont tell me its just "changing hands" and not being destroyed because that means you have to replace it anyways, or are you going to look for the player that killed you and ask for your gear back? lol
However, if the item just changes hands then it is still present in the economy. The PvPers are just going to sell the looted items back to the general populace and they will undercut the crafters. EVE's economy is fueled by item destruction and not by the partial looting. The partial looting just recycles the items back into the economy and reduces the amount of crafted gear needed.
Well whats the point of having different resources if everything is going to be available everywhere... There should be localized resource spots that warrant being controlled by a guild, but I agree there should be more than one... each region should have a special resource that cant be found anywhere else, with some common resources sprinkled here and there that can be found in mutliple places... The prices will regulate themselves as multiple crafters or gatherers try to sell their stuff on a distant region to make a profit..
I agree, everything should be player crafted
That's actually a PvP problem rather than a crafting problem. By making resources exclusive you create an imbalance in the system which might be fun to PvPers but frustrating to crafters. Crafters who are not PvPers will be marginalized in such as system and will be more likely to leave the game.
Lastly, there really needs to be a LOT of craftable items for a crafting centered game to work well. If there are too few things to make, then many would-be crafters will be crowded out due to non competitive prices. Having a lot of things that can be crafted, with no one thing having a clear advantage, will allow crafters to focus on certain areas of production and be profitable.
That's an important point since otherwise you end up with the situation that Pirates of the Burning Sands had. The craftign was so focused on ship building that most guilds realized that the most efficient way was to craft everything inhouse and then distribute ships to members in a communist system.
Originally posted by AriesTiger The very first thing, would be no currency or item "effects" on death. After that, it depends too much on the game itself.
Thats why themeparks cant have an economy, because PvE players dont want to lose that shiny new pixel EVER... in a crafting centric game, instead of having 1 ultimate gear you have multiple gear sets to replace the ones you lose... If you dont lose your gear, the economy cannot move... and dont tell me its just "changing hands" and not being destroyed because that means you have to replace it anyways, or are you going to look for the player that killed you and ask for your gear back? lol
However, if the item just changes hands then it is still present in the economy. The PvPers are just going to sell the looted items back to the general populace and they will undercut the crafters. EVE's economy is fueled by item destruction and not by the partial looting. The partial looting just recycles the items back into the economy and reduces the amount of crafted gear needed.
If you got both systems, the crafters will still have the edge... Chances are, if you loot an item from a player, its probably going to have low durability already and you wont be able to sell it as a brand newly crafted item... also, more competition in the market is good, helps to set the prices, the thing is items should be flowing around and changing hands constantly, instead of staying static on someones inventory...
The recent themepark trend has made efforts to kill any type of economy with divided loot, soul bound items, etc. You can get all the items you need for your character soloing... and while this may be convienent it kills any sort of economy that could emerge in the game...
So what features would you say are needed for an ingame economy to arise? My list would be something like:
Full loot pvp : If you never lose your items, theres never a need to replace them, and crafters would never be needed.
Item decay: Helps with continuing the gear cycle and constant need for new gear...
Regional Resources : There should be resources to fight over all over the map, and this should vary in each region. This will create demand for resources in regions where they are scarce.
Local Banks: What would be the point of regional resources if you can acess the same bank from each city? For a good economy, banks should NOT be linked together.
No Fast Travel: If you could teleport to every city in the map, there wouldnt be high demand for items which are not available in your area... This would destroy any type of economy.
I think these would be needed if there would be a game where you could play as a merchant and sell your wares in different cities for profit...
I like this as a starting point.
I would like to see fast travel, but without weight as in resources. And resources should have bulk and weight...add caravans and shipping for this need. A transport system that's NPC but would require player improvements to expand the capabilities for large use such as guild or city capability.
Time. If players can churn out 100 swords in a few minutes, that really throws off economic balance.
you know why cant crafting be like it used to be in the olden days. people knew crafters by word of mouth and by the quality gear that they produced. so why not keep it in this sense. for instance, instead of crafters learning how to make a new item by way of exp or purchasing blueprints or whatever, why not make where crafters made things through trial and error. people back then didnt learn how to make things this way. they learned how to make things because it was handed down to them from generations of family members doing it. so how about implement something like, just taking a shot here, but like how a single person can create an item, any item, from his own imagination, like they do in apb. you can pretty much customize anything in that game. and then have it like tsw has with the graphing system by putting things in a certain spot and way, and the breaking up of certain items to create another item, type way. imagine the possibilities any person could have if they could actually design every single weapon and armour to their liking, and selling it to the public for some coin. i mean imagine all of the different stuff that people could do to a sword or piece of armour to give it that unique look. and not only that, but not everyone would be running around with the same looking gear on. this person may not like the way this sword looks, so he doesnt buy it, but someone else may like the way it looked, and ends up spending coin on it. i mean the developers of the game have to create every single item in the game, why not leave it up to the crafters to produce all of the gear, the way they look, the way the sound, even the stats put on the gear. dungeons/raids/pvp and whatever wouldnt be about what gear drops, but more about other thngs. things that could bring an ordinary sword to an epic sword or whatever. you know what i am trying to say. you dont learn how to craft from what is put in the game, you learn how to craft through trial and error and eventually you will become the word of mouth. just a thought.
- Items must decay and have a chance to get destroyed
- crafting must have restrictions , it must consume time to craft something else one crafter could supply 1000 player
- crafting should be a passive process
- ressources need to be limited and in balance with the market needs this is probably the hardest part to get right
Im think currency i also needed for a smooth crafting and getting goods under the people. But it feels also nice to play with the idea to have no generic currency like "isk" in eve for ex. at all.
Im also not too sure if the introduction of different crafting stages make much sense and add deeph into a crafting system.
Like raw ressources > component parts > blueprints > end product
Its probably better to loot prints and component parts in some way so you dont need to craft them first and use this together with raw materials to make the product.
Comments
You can still have items permanently lose durability or break on death in a PvE game. The problem is that most PvE players are not going to play that sort of game. They become too attached to their gear will not risk losing it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
The only price regulation that is required is competition. As long as many crafters are competing to sell the same product, then price gouging will be extremely rare or nonexistent.
Now, as a side note, there's still one point of failure that can make price gouging possible and that's by concentrating too many rare resources in too small an area. If it's an open PVP game, then this will allow one group of powerful people to control all of that resource, and then they can charge whatever they want for those resources.
So basically, resources need to be decentralized and the ability to craft items needs to be available to whomever wants to craft it. I personally prefer a skill based system, whether time oriented or effort oriented, to level and class based systems, but that's just a personal preference.
Lastly, there really needs to be a LOT of craftable items for a crafting centered game to work well. If there are too few things to make, then many would-be crafters will be crowded out due to non competitive prices. Having a lot of things that can be crafted, with no one thing having a clear advantage, will allow crafters to focus on certain areas of production and be profitable.
Well whats the point of having different resources if everything is going to be available everywhere... There should be localized resource spots that warrant being controlled by a guild, but I agree there should be more than one... each region should have a special resource that cant be found anywhere else, with some common resources sprinkled here and there that can be found in mutliple places... The prices will regulate themselves as multiple crafters or gatherers try to sell their stuff on a distant region to make a profit..
I agree, everything should be player crafted
You are forgetting that most PvP players are the same. Nobody is willing to risk anything.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Thats why themeparks cant have an economy, because PvE players dont want to lose that shiny new pixel EVER... in a crafting centric game, instead of having 1 ultimate gear you have multiple gear sets to replace the ones you lose... If you dont lose your gear, the economy cannot move... and dont tell me its just "changing hands" and not being destroyed because that means you have to replace it anyways, or are you going to look for the player that killed you and ask for your gear back? lol
Also I forgot an important point some ppl have pointed out already, interdependence... you should have limited points so you cant craft EVERYTHING there is ingame, while also gathering everything, and being a mounted mage... that way you specialize in a type of crafting (assuming the crafting system is that deep) so you cant do everything by yourself... Look at Darkfall, everyone can craft I think and the economy is non existent..
However, if the item just changes hands then it is still present in the economy. The PvPers are just going to sell the looted items back to the general populace and they will undercut the crafters. EVE's economy is fueled by item destruction and not by the partial looting. The partial looting just recycles the items back into the economy and reduces the amount of crafted gear needed.
That's actually a PvP problem rather than a crafting problem. By making resources exclusive you create an imbalance in the system which might be fun to PvPers but frustrating to crafters. Crafters who are not PvPers will be marginalized in such as system and will be more likely to leave the game.
That's an important point since otherwise you end up with the situation that Pirates of the Burning Sands had. The craftign was so focused on ship building that most guilds realized that the most efficient way was to craft everything inhouse and then distribute ships to members in a communist system.
That includes any sort of "free loot" system.
If you got both systems, the crafters will still have the edge... Chances are, if you loot an item from a player, its probably going to have low durability already and you wont be able to sell it as a brand newly crafted item... also, more competition in the market is good, helps to set the prices, the thing is items should be flowing around and changing hands constantly, instead of staying static on someones inventory...
I like this as a starting point.
I would like to see fast travel, but without weight as in resources. And resources should have bulk and weight...add caravans and shipping for this need. A transport system that's NPC but would require player improvements to expand the capabilities for large use such as guild or city capability.
Time. If players can churn out 100 swords in a few minutes, that really throws off economic balance.
Once upon a time....
Mark Gilliam
Eve is a good reference
if i try to break down the systems i get this
- Most or all Items should be player made
- Items must decay and have a chance to get destroyed
- crafting must have restrictions , it must consume time to craft something else one crafter could supply 1000 player
- crafting should be a passive process
- ressources need to be limited and in balance with the market needs this is probably the hardest part to get right
Im think currency i also needed for a smooth crafting and getting goods under the people. But it feels also nice to play with the idea to have no generic currency like "isk" in eve for ex. at all.
Im also not too sure if the introduction of different crafting stages make much sense and add deeph into a crafting system.
Like raw ressources > component parts > blueprints > end product
Its probably better to loot prints and component parts in some way so you dont need to craft them first and use this together with raw materials to make the product.