Personally, total VO in a MMORPG is always bad news. Very specially when they put too much emphasis and publicity about the matter, showing off big-shot actors and all that.
It's all about the cost of opportunity. I value much more scope and functionality over flash and pyrotechnics. Not only that, It gives you a hint about the direction they are taking with the game: Basically, another case of a Hollywood esque game, that is more of a linear interactive movie with lots of scripted "oooh!" and "aaah!" from the teenage McDonals type of consumers than a proper Role Playing experience.
It's the eternal fight of presentation over substance. I thought that in RPG terms the latter held much more weight: scope, possibilities, longevity, capacity of interaction with the others and the world are the key concepts here. But as far as I can see, what triumphs among mainstream gaming now is the sort of brief and disposable experience, like a teenager's ejaculation after a compulsive session of masturbation. I guess that's the sort of public they look for nowadays.
Have a nice day fellas.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Everyone who thinks that a very rich publisher can't splurge on production values and still fund a creative, talented team that is focused on good game mechanics should apply SWTOR logic to everything for the rest of their lives and avoid TESO at all costs because clearly the only way to secure funds for voice acting is to completely half-ass/ignore every other part of a game's development. There is literally no way you can do both. It's impossible, apparently.
I like how it's just "look what happened to SWTOR!!" over and over again. Because........ if SWTOR had great voice acting and terrible game otherwise, that means every game that ever comes out with great voice acting will be terrible otherwise. Spotless logic!
Originally posted by Margulis I like how it's just "look what happened to SWTOR!!" over and over again. Because........ if SWTOR had great voice acting and terrible game otherwise, that means every game that ever comes out with great voice acting will be terrible otherwise. Spotless logic!
Clearly Skyrim, Bioshock: Infinite, Uncharted, GTA V, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, StarCraft 2, etc. are all terrible games! I mean, how DARE they spend money on voice-overs? How dare they?!
Originally posted by Margulis I like how it's just "look what happened to SWTOR!!" over and over again. Because........ if SWTOR had great voice acting and terrible game otherwise, that means every game that ever comes out with great voice acting will be terrible otherwise. Spotless logic!
Clearly Skyrim, Bioshock: Infinite, Uncharted, GTA V, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, StarCraft 2, etc. are all terrible games! I mean, how DARE they spend money on voice-overs? How dare they?!
I know right.
It's just scandalous. Scandalous I say.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by Margulis I like how it's just "look what happened to SWTOR!!" over and over again. Because........ if SWTOR had great voice acting and terrible game otherwise, that means every game that ever comes out with great voice acting will be terrible otherwise. Spotless logic!
/agree
I still do not understand the SWTOR comparisons or the desire to compare the two.
Is it the amount they spent on making the game? The popularity of the IP?
Originally posted by PerfArt Everyone who thinks that a very rich publisher can't splurge on production values and still fund a creative, talented team that is focused on good game mechanics should apply SWTOR logic to everything for the rest of their lives and avoid TESO at all costs because clearly the only way to secure funds for voice acting is to completely half-ass/ignore every other part of a game's development. There is literally no way you can do both. It's impossible, apparently.
That's rather amusing. If a publisher is in the mood to splurge and the only thing they feel will help the end user experience or increase their sales is unnecessary "production values" no one is going to care about after the first play through then the game is already done for. It's kind of like giving an ugly, dirty, hooker a make up mask before letting her parade in the window down in the red light district... Similarly when hunting up a mark, we all get drunk once in a great while. As to which game features are "half assed" as you put it I think there will be a core of agreement to that once people are free to comment without fear of an NDA breach hanging over their heads.
Originally posted by PerfArt Everyone who thinks that a very rich publisher can't splurge on production values and still fund a creative, talented team that is focused on good game mechanics should apply SWTOR logic to everything for the rest of their lives and avoid TESO at all costs because clearly the only way to secure funds for voice acting is to completely half-ass/ignore every other part of a game's development. There is literally no way you can do both. It's impossible, apparently.
That's rather amusing. If a publisher is in the mood to splurge and the only thing they feel will help the end user experience or increase their sales is unnecessary "production values" no one is going to care about after the first play through then the game is already done for. It's kind of like giving an ugly, dirty, hooker a make up mask before letting her parade in the window down in the red light district... Similarly when hunting up a mark, we all get drunk once in a great while. As to which game features are "half assed" as you put it I think there will be a core of agreement to that once people are free to comment without fear of an NDA breach hanging over their heads.
You seem to forget that they are also selling the game.
If enough people buy it, play through it and then rage quit (as they so often do) - that's still money for the company.
And there will be plenty of players that will stay subbed too.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by Margulis I like how it's just "look what happened to SWTOR!!" over and over again. Because........ if SWTOR had great voice acting and terrible game otherwise, that means every game that ever comes out with great voice acting will be terrible otherwise. Spotless logic!
Clearly Skyrim, Bioshock: Infinite, Uncharted, GTA V, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, StarCraft 2, etc. are all terrible games! I mean, how DARE they spend money on voice-overs? How dare they?!
LOL. All those single player games (or with a multilayer component distinctly lacking in the type of voice work being discussed here) are supposed to support the idea of including big budget voice actors and cut scenes in an MMORPG... Sorry man. I just don't buy the idea as much as I love story.
Originally posted by Margulis I like how it's just "look what happened to SWTOR!!" over and over again. Because........ if SWTOR had great voice acting and terrible game otherwise, that means every game that ever comes out with great voice acting will be terrible otherwise. Spotless logic!
Clearly Skyrim, Bioshock: Infinite, Uncharted, GTA V, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, StarCraft 2, etc. are all terrible games! I mean, how DARE they spend money on voice-overs? How dare they?!
LOL. All those single player games (or with a multilayer component distinctly lacking in the type of voice work being discussed here) are supposed to support the idea of including big budget voice actors and cut scenes in an MMORPG... Sorry man. I just don't buy the idea as much as I love story.
Then put your faith in an MMO that appeals more to a "purist", rather than all this blurring the lines "crap" - since you seem rather opposed to it.
There are still MMO's coming out that are more old school - I doubt ArcheAge for example will bother much with VO's, and I haven't heard anything about Wildstar doing them either.
Leave the more story focused MMO's to those of us that enjoy them. Clearly there's more of us than you might like, since devs keep doing it.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
And SW:TOR also told us (at least those of us with a long term memory) that a voice over cast doesn't make a good game... they could have all the best actors of the world, spend millions of dollars just on the voice overs, and still make a bad game.
Bad is not a description, it's a judgment, and not one everyone shares. Regardless of your opinion on TOR, it is pretty undeniable that if you are going to have voice acting at all, it's important that it be well done voice acting. Does it necessarily have to be big names? No, that is probably more of a marketing tool than anything else. But it does need to be competent voice actors, not developers doing it in their spare time. The impact of unskilled voice acting on a narrative experience is to make it worse, no matter how well written it is. Skilled voice acting is a little trickier. No matter how talented the cast, if the material is bad it won't save it.
But let's be real here, even if you don't personally like TOR, you have to admit that it's one real claim to fame is delivering a quality narrative experience, and the quality of the voices was a big part of that. Without them, it probably would have actually failed by now, not just failed in the eyes of forum trolls who don't understand math.
Originally posted by evilastro
Never said it made a good game, just commented on the quality of actors. And SWTORs ones were touted to cost quite a lot. I imagine the VA bill for ESO is quite large.
Personally I think its a bit overdone these days. Wouldn't hurt to teach some people to read more.
I love to read. But when I want to read, I turn off the computer and grab a book. Arguing that text is fine in games is no different than arguing that subtitles are just fine for movies, they don't need to waste all that time and money having the actors talk and making sure the audio quality matches the visuals.
Originally posted by evilastro
These consumers demanding voice acting rather than text are the same ones that cant even type out a coherent sentence in chat. If that's the future I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
Not remotely accurate. I won't even butcher the language in text messages, and when I see somebody else do it, I get a severe headache. I don't demand VA because I can't or won't read, I do it because when the quality of narrative presentation in a game is inconsistent, it is extremely jarring to me. The graphical and audio capabilities in games keep improving, and when a developer fails to make full use of them, as is the case in giving us text boxes instead of voice acting, it practically screams "We either don't understand how to do this well, can't afford to do it well, or just don't care enough to do it well."
I know I've said it already, but making a modern RPG with text boxes instead of voice really is the equivalent of making a modern movie that relies solely on subtitles. If you are a magnificent artist, you might be able to pull it off and create a good experience, but the odds are not in your favor.
Originally posted by stealthbr
Clearly Skyrim, Bioshock: Infinite, Uncharted, GTA V, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, StarCraft 2, etc. are all terrible games! I mean, how DARE they spend money on voice-overs? How dare they?!
To be fair, most of the voice acting in Skyrim is absolutely atrocious, and detracts from the enjoyment of the game. Well done VA is better than no VA, but no VA is still better than unskilled VA.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
LOL. All those single player games (or with a multilayer component distinctly lacking in the type of voice work being discussed here) are supposed to support the idea of including big budget voice actors and cut scenes in an MMORPG... Sorry man. I just don't buy the idea as much as I love story.
Please, elucidate why an MMORPG can't have cutscenes or voice-over dialogues. I would love to hear your arguments.
They forgot the "Microsoft text-to-speech guy". That guy is the best!
Honestly, it sounds a bit overkill. SWTOR wasted to much money on it and while I loved the higher quality story telling (as im sure many others did as well) it was mostly skipped by players. To the point it caused more drama on top of the usual PUG headaches, and worst of all it delayed the content updates to where it took 6 months just to get more than halfassed updates
Please, elucidate to me why an MMORPG can't have cutscenes or voice-over dialogues. I would love to hear your arguments.
Well duh! Because the RPG in MMORPG is supposed to be silent!
Originally posted by Kayo45
Honestly, it sounds a bit overkill. SWTOR wasted to much money on it and while I loved the higher quality story telling (as im sure many others did as well) it was mostly skipped by players.
I've seen lots of claims that it was mostly skipped by players, but they are almost always from people who don't like the game anyway. I've never heard of any actual evidence that most, many, or even a substantial number skipped through story content. I would love to see BW's metrics on the issue.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Please, elucidate to me why an MMORPG can't have cutscenes or voice-over dialogues. I would love to hear your arguments.
Well duh! Because the RPG in MMORPG is supposed to be silent!
Originally posted by Kayo45
Honestly, it sounds a bit overkill. SWTOR wasted to much money on it and while I loved the higher quality story telling (as im sure many others did as well) it was mostly skipped by players.
I've seen lots of claims that it was mostly skipped by players, but they are almost always from people who don't like the game anyway. I've never heard of any actual evidence that most, many, or even a substantial number skipped through story content. I would love to see BW's metrics on the issue.
I assume he's missing the distinction between Flashpoint conversation scenes and the regular storylines.
The first are often skipped, for various reasons - the main ones being that people are screaming "SPACEBAR! OMFG, HIT THAT SPACEBAR ALREADY!" and pressuring others into it because they've already seen it several times (or have short attention spans) and that it's repeatable content anyway.
I don't have the impression that it happens for the regular story content that often (especially not for people that are new to the game and on their first playthrough) - I see plenty of people standing at quest NPCs, with the little chatbubble floating above them that indicates they are watching the conversation, and more often than not they tend to stand there for a while (indicating they're actually paying attention to it, rather than just wearing out their spacebars).
I have no doubt that there are people that bought the game without knowing what it was about and then went "WTF is this?! Let me skip it already." - but that's more on them than on Bioware.
And I wouldn't classify them as "most people" either.
If you just pick up an MMO without doing any research whatsoever on it before buying it, it's entirely on the buyer if it "sucks" by their standards.
"Buyer beware" is a saying for a reason.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
It actually IS an absolute waste of resources to put any focus on the voice acting. Especially paying for big name instead of just using nobodies for so much cheaper.
It actually IS an absolute waste of resources to put any focus on the voice acting. Especially paying for big name instead of just using nobodies for so much cheaper.
But in the end, it's their money, not mine.
You're assuming they were under some kind of budget crunch, and the money put into voice acting could have gone somewhere else. It's a privately held company, so it's entirely possible they were told "spend whatever you need to to make the game as successful as you can," and the budget for voice had no impact on the budget for anything else.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Definitely not a waste of money. There's nothing worse than hearing bad voiceovers. The only problem: if they ever need to add new dialogue for expansions and cannot get the same people back. (DC Universe, I'm looking at you).
Definitely not a waste of money. There's nothing worse than hearing bad voiceovers. The only problem: if they ever need to add new dialogue for expansions and cannot get the same people back. (DC Universe, I'm looking at you).
Not true once the have a persons voice they can digitize it easily...we have the technology. nice joke you told tho...
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Originally posted by Vayman Definitely not a waste of money. There's nothing worse than hearing bad voiceovers. The only problem: if they ever need to add new dialogue for expansions and cannot get the same people back. (DC Universe, I'm looking at you).
I imagine they were smart about it and either did a ton of recording in advance, and/or put them on retainer like SWTOR did with its voice actors.
All of those big names probably have their own little recording studio at home anyway, so they most likely won't even have to go anywhere to do the recordings.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
It actually IS an absolute waste of resources to put any focus on the voice acting. Especially paying for big name instead of just using nobodies for so much cheaper.
But in the end, it's their money, not mine.
I think you can have High Quality AND Voice Overs that feel REAL and IMMERSIVE and with HEART. That's whats going to make this game so great.
How many posts will it take before the first "Waste of money, They should have used it on _____ instead." ?
I don't like the snob factor when hollywood celebs do voiceovers in games. I'd prefer they get voice acting talent from all those hardworking stage actors who are equally awesome, if not more so. I didn't like the way SWTOR did this either. Total waste of money, so shallow.
Comments
I'd much rather npc's tell me about a quest rather than having to read a wall of text. VO didn't kill those games shithouse design did.
Personally, total VO in a MMORPG is always bad news. Very specially when they put too much emphasis and publicity about the matter, showing off big-shot actors and all that.
It's all about the cost of opportunity. I value much more scope and functionality over flash and pyrotechnics. Not only that, It gives you a hint about the direction they are taking with the game: Basically, another case of a Hollywood esque game, that is more of a linear interactive movie with lots of scripted "oooh!" and "aaah!" from the teenage McDonals type of consumers than a proper Role Playing experience.
It's the eternal fight of presentation over substance. I thought that in RPG terms the latter held much more weight: scope, possibilities, longevity, capacity of interaction with the others and the world are the key concepts here. But as far as I can see, what triumphs among mainstream gaming now is the sort of brief and disposable experience, like a teenager's ejaculation after a compulsive session of masturbation. I guess that's the sort of public they look for nowadays.
Have a nice day fellas.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Clearly Skyrim, Bioshock: Infinite, Uncharted, GTA V, Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, StarCraft 2, etc. are all terrible games! I mean, how DARE they spend money on voice-overs? How dare they?!
I know right.
It's just scandalous. Scandalous I say.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
/agree
I still do not understand the SWTOR comparisons or the desire to compare the two.
Is it the amount they spent on making the game? The popularity of the IP?
That's rather amusing. If a publisher is in the mood to splurge and the only thing they feel will help the end user experience or increase their sales is unnecessary "production values" no one is going to care about after the first play through then the game is already done for. It's kind of like giving an ugly, dirty, hooker a make up mask before letting her parade in the window down in the red light district... Similarly when hunting up a mark, we all get drunk once in a great while. As to which game features are "half assed" as you put it I think there will be a core of agreement to that once people are free to comment without fear of an NDA breach hanging over their heads.
You seem to forget that they are also selling the game.
If enough people buy it, play through it and then rage quit (as they so often do) - that's still money for the company.
And there will be plenty of players that will stay subbed too.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
LOL. All those single player games (or with a multilayer component distinctly lacking in the type of voice work being discussed here) are supposed to support the idea of including big budget voice actors and cut scenes in an MMORPG... Sorry man. I just don't buy the idea as much as I love story.
Then put your faith in an MMO that appeals more to a "purist", rather than all this blurring the lines "crap" - since you seem rather opposed to it.
There are still MMO's coming out that are more old school - I doubt ArcheAge for example will bother much with VO's, and I haven't heard anything about Wildstar doing them either.
Leave the more story focused MMO's to those of us that enjoy them. Clearly there's more of us than you might like, since devs keep doing it.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Bad is not a description, it's a judgment, and not one everyone shares. Regardless of your opinion on TOR, it is pretty undeniable that if you are going to have voice acting at all, it's important that it be well done voice acting. Does it necessarily have to be big names? No, that is probably more of a marketing tool than anything else. But it does need to be competent voice actors, not developers doing it in their spare time. The impact of unskilled voice acting on a narrative experience is to make it worse, no matter how well written it is. Skilled voice acting is a little trickier. No matter how talented the cast, if the material is bad it won't save it.
But let's be real here, even if you don't personally like TOR, you have to admit that it's one real claim to fame is delivering a quality narrative experience, and the quality of the voices was a big part of that. Without them, it probably would have actually failed by now, not just failed in the eyes of forum trolls who don't understand math.
I love to read. But when I want to read, I turn off the computer and grab a book. Arguing that text is fine in games is no different than arguing that subtitles are just fine for movies, they don't need to waste all that time and money having the actors talk and making sure the audio quality matches the visuals.Not remotely accurate. I won't even butcher the language in text messages, and when I see somebody else do it, I get a severe headache. I don't demand VA because I can't or won't read, I do it because when the quality of narrative presentation in a game is inconsistent, it is extremely jarring to me. The graphical and audio capabilities in games keep improving, and when a developer fails to make full use of them, as is the case in giving us text boxes instead of voice acting, it practically screams "We either don't understand how to do this well, can't afford to do it well, or just don't care enough to do it well."
I know I've said it already, but making a modern RPG with text boxes instead of voice really is the equivalent of making a modern movie that relies solely on subtitles. If you are a magnificent artist, you might be able to pull it off and create a good experience, but the odds are not in your favor.
To be fair, most of the voice acting in Skyrim is absolutely atrocious, and detracts from the enjoyment of the game. Well done VA is better than no VA, but no VA is still better than unskilled VA.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Please, elucidate why an MMORPG can't have cutscenes or voice-over dialogues. I would love to hear your arguments.
Honestly, it sounds a bit overkill. SWTOR wasted to much money on it and while I loved the higher quality story telling (as im sure many others did as well) it was mostly skipped by players. To the point it caused more drama on top of the usual PUG headaches, and worst of all it delayed the content updates to where it took 6 months just to get more than halfassed updates
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I assume he's missing the distinction between Flashpoint conversation scenes and the regular storylines.
The first are often skipped, for various reasons - the main ones being that people are screaming "SPACEBAR! OMFG, HIT THAT SPACEBAR ALREADY!" and pressuring others into it because they've already seen it several times (or have short attention spans) and that it's repeatable content anyway.
I don't have the impression that it happens for the regular story content that often (especially not for people that are new to the game and on their first playthrough) - I see plenty of people standing at quest NPCs, with the little chatbubble floating above them that indicates they are watching the conversation, and more often than not they tend to stand there for a while (indicating they're actually paying attention to it, rather than just wearing out their spacebars).
I have no doubt that there are people that bought the game without knowing what it was about and then went "WTF is this?! Let me skip it already." - but that's more on them than on Bioware.
And I wouldn't classify them as "most people" either.
If you just pick up an MMO without doing any research whatsoever on it before buying it, it's entirely on the buyer if it "sucks" by their standards.
"Buyer beware" is a saying for a reason.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
It actually IS an absolute waste of resources to put any focus on the voice acting. Especially paying for big name instead of just using nobodies for so much cheaper.
But in the end, it's their money, not mine.
You're assuming they were under some kind of budget crunch, and the money put into voice acting could have gone somewhere else. It's a privately held company, so it's entirely possible they were told "spend whatever you need to to make the game as successful as you can," and the budget for voice had no impact on the budget for anything else.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Not true once the have a persons voice they can digitize it easily...we have the technology. nice joke you told tho...If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
Not the majority unfortunately and that is where they make their money...I'm sure the subtitles will be just fine.I imagine they were smart about it and either did a ton of recording in advance, and/or put them on retainer like SWTOR did with its voice actors.
All of those big names probably have their own little recording studio at home anyway, so they most likely won't even have to go anywhere to do the recordings.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I think you can have High Quality AND Voice Overs that feel REAL and IMMERSIVE and with HEART. That's whats going to make this game so great.
I don't like the snob factor when hollywood celebs do voiceovers in games. I'd prefer they get voice acting talent from all those hardworking stage actors who are equally awesome, if not more so. I didn't like the way SWTOR did this either. Total waste of money, so shallow.