The thing is that playing multiple classes makes sense,why would you not be able to?
What it comes down to is how well you do it.FFXI came very close to doing it perfect for many reasons.
An example would be you pick a race that gives you lots of hp and very low mp,you can mix and match but you will be better still art one class than another.Having more hp,you would make a good Paladin or Tank while having less mp,you would not be as good a healer or nuker.
Also i do not agree with changing on the fly,i liked the way FFXI did it,you had to actually go back to your moghouse to change classes.This again makes sense,if you were skilled at say being a hockey player and an auto mechanic,you would not have your hockey equipment and your tools on you at all times,you would have to go back home to change your gear.
I don't like when things don't make sense then you get some dev who is worried about backlash from LAZY players,who don't want to spend time going back home to change.
Back to the way FFXI did it,they also only allowed your sub class to be half the level and again makes sense.That way you are 100% skilled at your chosen profession but are aided from your sub skills.Just as in real life you can use several skills to accomplish something in a totally different field..
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I just watched (for the first time) the EQN Panel on Classes, and I was sorely disappointed when I saw that they were making it so people can basically turn your character into an "all class hybrid" eventually with enough leveling and customization. This is bascially making EQN a mix of Guild Wars 2 and RIFT. Are you kidding?
If when I start an MMO and pick my first class, I pick a Cleric because clearly I am interested in being a HEALER and I enjoy healing, rezzing, and buffing players. Sure maybe I can customize that healer to being more of an "offensive healer" where the heals aren't as good but I get some offensive spells, but still I am a HEALER.
If I wanted that healer to be a stealthy rogue that can hide in shadows, or be a warrior that can leap 50 feet in the air and do a huge whirlwind attack, THEN I WOULD HAVE PICKED THOSE GODDAMN CLASSES FROM THE START.
I just don't understand how these devs work these days.
Is this what the MMO community really wants? They don't want "dedicated healers" or "dedicated wizards" anymore? They want their class to be able to do everything?
This really pisses me off.
I am an old school D&D player and MMO player as well and I shared your concerns until I really thought it through. Just think of a lot of the classic heroes from lore that we like and imagine what class they are.
Gandalf - Wizard right? Oh but wizards generally cant use swords, or if they could they are generally not very effective with them, yet gandalf can hold his own in a melee fight in addition to being a wizard. So what if we made gandalf in EQN: His eight skills may look like this: 1 - Warrior sword attack, 2 - Warrior sword defense, 3-8 - Wizard spells.
What about Artimeis Entreri, hes surely not just a rogue, or just a warrior. Or drizzt, hes not just a ranger, or just a warrior.
You can still go full on wizard or full on healer, in fact by some accounts Merlin was not just a wizard, he could heal as well, and so maybe Merlin may be 80% wizard with 2 healing spells.
I don't see it as a bad thing if done properly, they have to be careful though, as "best build class mixes" can occur with systems like this.
Very nice post! I also think the OP might not be thinking about dedicated roles quite clearly. I don't know of many MMORPGs that pigeonhole you into having only one option for how you play your class, not even in the old school games like DAoC that had three specs for each class, so one "dedicated' healer might be able to do different things from another "dedicated" healer and actually at some point in the game a person's gear actually dictated how his class played more so than the actual class skills sometimes.
Plus, I can't think of too many games where there wasn't some mix and match of abilities, even in tabletop games. In 2nd ed AD&D you have Clerics that can heal and those that can't heal: it all depends on what spheres the god you worship gives you. So what class role are you really choosing when you pick up a Cleric?
I think the EQN system could work if implemented carefully. SOE has already had a game that was similar in mixing and matching skills and abilities, it was called SWG pre-NGE and it actually did for the most part work. You could mix and match skills to your heart's content whether as a crafter, trader/politician, martial artist/dancer. You could have a bit of pistol skills and be a cook, but you would never be as good at shooting things as a master pistoleer. You could drop what you had just learned and pick up a completely different set of skills: you could be a bounty hunter and master rifleman, forget all of that and become a peaceful armorsmith. There were no dedicated healers or tanks and yet people still grouped up to go kill big things. You could master in theory every skill in the game on one character, but you could not always be a master of every skill at any time. You were limited to how many active skills were available at any one time on any given character. Also remember that you only had access to one character per server initially.
If EQN had an SWG-style skill system for classes, then I do not think it will be an immersion-breaking aspect of the game. Sure, if anyone could master anything at any time and just switch at the push of a button, that would suck, but that is not how I really understand their class system.
Maybe there won't really be a need for healers in the game, or for aggro mechanics. That does not mean that combat has to be completely chaotic and zergy. Perhaps crowd control will become an integral part of play: knowing when to disable a mob and which mob to disable might be the thing that matters most. Again if you look at tabletop D&D (pre-4th ed), there were no real tanks, no aggro mechanics, and no dedicated healers. CC was very, very important as were buffs and debuffs. I don't see why you *have to have* trinity in an MMORPG to make it a good game.
Yes, 1,000 times yes. Every single MMO i have played since EQ1 has been a solo game.. it sucks. nobody wants to group for the sake of a group, nobody wants to say hello or be social... community sucks because nobody needs help with anything. its so boring, its like playing Skyrim without any of the stuff that makes Skyrim good.
Originally posted by JamesErnst Yes, 1,000 times yes. Every single MMO i have played since EQ1 has been a solo game.. it sucks. nobody wants to group for the sake of a group, nobody wants to say hello or be social... community sucks because nobody needs help with anything. its so boring, its like playing Skyrim without any of the stuff that makes Skyrim good.
Which games were those? By "nobody" do you mean yourself? I've never ever had a problem finding a group, making "friends", joining a guild, etc. Are there times when I want to solo and be alone, sure, but it is by choice. No game forces me to do either, I make the choice and weigh what is more important. Not once have I looked around the game world and went, "OMG I'm alone" and /cried myself to sleep. I'm assuming you played WoW, did you ever do high end raids? Or PVP in any game? How did you do challenging content without others, or did you just follow the zerg around?
Comments
The thing is that playing multiple classes makes sense,why would you not be able to?
What it comes down to is how well you do it.FFXI came very close to doing it perfect for many reasons.
An example would be you pick a race that gives you lots of hp and very low mp,you can mix and match but you will be better still art one class than another.Having more hp,you would make a good Paladin or Tank while having less mp,you would not be as good a healer or nuker.
Also i do not agree with changing on the fly,i liked the way FFXI did it,you had to actually go back to your moghouse to change classes.This again makes sense,if you were skilled at say being a hockey player and an auto mechanic,you would not have your hockey equipment and your tools on you at all times,you would have to go back home to change your gear.
I don't like when things don't make sense then you get some dev who is worried about backlash from LAZY players,who don't want to spend time going back home to change.
Back to the way FFXI did it,they also only allowed your sub class to be half the level and again makes sense.That way you are 100% skilled at your chosen profession but are aided from your sub skills.Just as in real life you can use several skills to accomplish something in a totally different field..
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
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Very nice post! I also think the OP might not be thinking about dedicated roles quite clearly. I don't know of many MMORPGs that pigeonhole you into having only one option for how you play your class, not even in the old school games like DAoC that had three specs for each class, so one "dedicated' healer might be able to do different things from another "dedicated" healer and actually at some point in the game a person's gear actually dictated how his class played more so than the actual class skills sometimes.
Plus, I can't think of too many games where there wasn't some mix and match of abilities, even in tabletop games. In 2nd ed AD&D you have Clerics that can heal and those that can't heal: it all depends on what spheres the god you worship gives you. So what class role are you really choosing when you pick up a Cleric?
I think the EQN system could work if implemented carefully. SOE has already had a game that was similar in mixing and matching skills and abilities, it was called SWG pre-NGE and it actually did for the most part work. You could mix and match skills to your heart's content whether as a crafter, trader/politician, martial artist/dancer. You could have a bit of pistol skills and be a cook, but you would never be as good at shooting things as a master pistoleer. You could drop what you had just learned and pick up a completely different set of skills: you could be a bounty hunter and master rifleman, forget all of that and become a peaceful armorsmith. There were no dedicated healers or tanks and yet people still grouped up to go kill big things. You could master in theory every skill in the game on one character, but you could not always be a master of every skill at any time. You were limited to how many active skills were available at any one time on any given character. Also remember that you only had access to one character per server initially.
If EQN had an SWG-style skill system for classes, then I do not think it will be an immersion-breaking aspect of the game. Sure, if anyone could master anything at any time and just switch at the push of a button, that would suck, but that is not how I really understand their class system.
Maybe there won't really be a need for healers in the game, or for aggro mechanics. That does not mean that combat has to be completely chaotic and zergy. Perhaps crowd control will become an integral part of play: knowing when to disable a mob and which mob to disable might be the thing that matters most. Again if you look at tabletop D&D (pre-4th ed), there were no real tanks, no aggro mechanics, and no dedicated healers. CC was very, very important as were buffs and debuffs. I don't see why you *have to have* trinity in an MMORPG to make it a good game.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
--Gaymer Extraordinaire--
Which games were those? By "nobody" do you mean yourself? I've never ever had a problem finding a group, making "friends", joining a guild, etc. Are there times when I want to solo and be alone, sure, but it is by choice. No game forces me to do either, I make the choice and weigh what is more important. Not once have I looked around the game world and went, "OMG I'm alone" and /cried myself to sleep. I'm assuming you played WoW, did you ever do high end raids? Or PVP in any game? How did you do challenging content without others, or did you just follow the zerg around?