Originally posted by Signe Actually, I wasn't trying to make a joke. I was just wondering how much crafting would be reasonable for a D&D game. Like I said before, I never played the PnP game so I'm kind of clueless about what sorts of crafting would be okay. I thought it would be a bit much because, from what I've sussed, dropped loot is a big deal in D&D. They've said crafting is a possibility in the future and I've enjoyed some sorts of crafting in other games.
Crafting is done by feats, skill points and, if magical in nature, XP expenditure.
Originally posted by Jodokai Originally posted by Signe Actually, I wasn't trying to make a joke. I was just wondering how much crafting would be reasonable for a D&D game. Like I said before, I never played the PnP game so I'm kind of clueless about what sorts of crafting would be okay. I thought it would be a bit much because, from what I've sussed, dropped loot is a big deal in D&D. They've said crafting is a possibility in the future and I've enjoyed some sorts of crafting in other games.Crafting is done by feats, skill points and, if magical in nature, XP expenditure.
I do know what is reasonable in a regular MMO, at least those I've played but I had no idea what would be acceptable in a D&D game and how you would go about it. What you say makes sense, though. Thanks for an answer that doesn't contain a snarky comment.
This is what I posted on a different forum...It relates to the issue of DDO being an Online Game rather than an MMO...(Note - I took out some parts of my post)
More Instanced = Closer to "Single Player" games Less Instanced = Closer to the "Original" feel that MMORPGs used to give
I'm going to compare by using games I've played mostly... Look at COH for instance... when fighting in the zones and not in instance, you get a feeling that other people/players are around you as well, even though you're doing nothing whatsoever with them...
In DDO, it's closer to a "Single Player" game because u don't get the feeling that people are around, when you're actually doing something... Lets say for instance this was to become an online rpg, it wouldn't have people around in taverns,towns,etc. And you would end up picking up a group game the same way as in Diablo games... Imagine how it would be like... Apparently, it wouldn't feel like a huge difference from how it is now in the game, (atleast to me it feels that way)...
Since this is being geared to mmo players, It probably upsets them that it feels so much closer to a "Single Player" type game... I think alot of complaints about Guild Wars, had alot to do with this same reason too...
Note - I don't think there's a name for the factor that causes the way Original MMOs feel versus Single Player Games, so, I'm just saying how it is...
Edit1: Bottomline
MMO - can feel like Single Player Game or Game where you and others can affect the world/(People around the player)... Tend to have little to no plots and an open story...
Single Player Game(Or Online Game) - Only you or your group can affect the world... Tend to have plots and a single/main storyline
So basically, some people against instancing are using the definition of MMO as a general idea, while people defending the concept that DDO is an MMO, is using the technical definition of MMO...
I think there needs to be a new word or two made that would mean the "general idea" rather than the technical term... Then there wouldn't be as much of a conflict...
I have to agree, that even if a game that uses tons of instancing, it can still be "successful"( Not everyone likes instancing, so I'm using the term successful rather than "good" )... It's just a matter of how well the game is done, and what's added to complement its features...
weird it seems that my essay i wrote prior to this never got posted...
(seems like there is a limit so ill break my posts up)ugh...
Part 1
well ill retype it but the short but sweet version:
ive played dnd table top since grade 10 (yay second edition), and ive played mmo's since grade 9 (yay evercrack), and im 4th year college student right now so that should give you a bit of history on me.
Ill start by saying im not to happy with the way the games shapping up. No the instances dont bother me that much. But i will point out in every MMO ive played up until this point ive made some of my best friends by aiding a player who i see is loosing against a monster. whether it be stealing the aggro so the player can rest up and mend to his wounds, throwing a heal on that player, or be it just nuking the snot out of the monster with a spell.
Also with an entire game instanced you will have the guild wars problem where you ally with a group of players, say "Hey awesome job! let me add you to my buddy list" and never see that name again, except for 4 weeks down the road when you're cleaning up your friends list and you see that persons name and ponder "who exactally is this person again...?"
I hate to admit it but games like EQ and WoW were good for the community (except for those annoying blizz kids...) Each server had a feeling of family and community. Each server had players that everybody knew and when you saw them it was instantly "Wow!!! /bow /worship" because they probably attained a feat that none has accomplished on that server before.
DDO had the potential to be the perfect MMO. 3.5 has been play tested for years, and has been worked out to be near perfection in balance. The world was already laid out (even be it eberron *puke* lol) all they had to do was program it.
The item creation was already perfected as well with the DND system. Spell points just make the game seem like a EQ / WoW knock off "Heres your health bar, heres your mana bar." What was wrong with scrolls, wands, and staffs? Any experienced player would agree that it was practically foolish to memorize attack spells (short of a few higher level ones) and just use wands and staffs for your fireballs/lightning bolts/magic missiles. Save the spell slots for utility spells, such as darkvision, see invisibility, knock, shatter, identify, invisibility, etc.
Lastly i want to note to the gentleman who said he cant play hours on end because he has children so this "run a mission, get xp, repeat" type deal since like a good idea. Heres some bad news: the quests themselves (mid level to end game) will take a handful of hours on end. This means when you play for 2 1/2 hours and are 60-70% done your quest, and something happens with your children and you need to log, that was a waste of 2 1/2 hours since the xp is dished out at the end. Seems like a poor idea to me. Ill admit, i love quests... i LOVE em, in guild wars i was ALWAYS questing, i NEVER grinded (i hate grinding...). thats my 2 cents, hopefully this post doesnt get deleted or whatever happened heh.
edit: ill also appologize for my posts being in 2 halves, it seems to eat up my post when i keep it in 1.
Originally posted by seraph403 Part 2 I hate to admit it but games like EQ and WoW were good for the community (except for those annoying blizz kids...) Each server had a feeling of family and community. Each server had players that everybody knew and when you saw them it was instantly "Wow!!! /bow /worship" because they probably attained a feat that none has accomplished on that server before.
Wow. Its crazy to me how I played the same game as you (WoW) but I can not relate whatsoever. The punchline: WoW's community is/was HORRIBLE. In fact, thats the reason I stopped playing. Too many douchbags playing it because its teh cool thing to do. Its not a great game imo, just a popular one. Its has its high points, but they are heavily overshadowed by its low points. Honestly, after playing for a few months I said to myself that I never want to play another MMO again...that is until I gave DDO a shot (just because I used to play PnP.) Sure, DDO is heavily instanced. Its was a turnoff right from the start. That is, until I did a few dungeon runs. Then I realized where this game really shines. It actually has enjoyable gameplay! Its like having a touch of that immersive single player vibe in an MMO. What I mean is, it takes you on a ride as you move through the dungeon. Because of this I see exactly why they choose the instancing. The dungeons are more than just fight/rest/fight/rest/fight/rest...exc exc. You actually have to work together, with your strengths, as a team. What a concept Even further, before I began the beta I was a soloer at least 75% of the time in other games. But this game made it so easy to find decent groups it wasnt even funny (at least in my experience.) Even better, the dungeons are all close by so no running for 15 min to meet a group just to START a quest. Boom, you group...enter dungeon/quest...and its time to game! Usually it takes me less than 5 min to find a group. Sometimes I had invites before the initial screen loaded all the way. In this game I WANT to group...even if I only have time for one quest. Its great. Im no fanboi, the game needs a little tweaking, and im not going to say its perfect. But seriously, all this hating makes no sense to me. This game has alot going for it, and its a shame many of the people bashing it cant see that. Either way, if you are just peeking into these forums...dont believe the negative hype without first trying it for yourself. Because for some, although it may not be perfect, it is still a blessing compared to the MMO monontony!
Oh i would agree FutureP, the community in WoW was 90% immature and WoW became what EQ ultimately became: a game of grind for items and xp.
Thats what i truly respected about guildwars. like i mentioned i NEVER grinded once in guild wars, but as stated earlier in this thread from another member, seeing "level 8 fighter, lfg" or "level 4 cleric, lfg" will steal away from the aspect of roleplaying which is the core reason i play D&D.
I wish there was zones that were instanced, like WoW, and open areas to explore, open cities to check out, sit in a tavern, have a drink, socialize. This wont be around in a completely instanced game. As I mentioned (and a few others in this thread and ones alike) the aspect of making friends will become very difficult. I joined one of the most powerful guilds in WoW via healing a dying mage of the guild and assisting him in fighting off horde while he was fighting monsters. This created a commedery, a brotherhood bond, which an instanced game cannot offer.
Im not saying i wont play DDO, im probably one of the biggest fans of PnP D&D on this forum, so i will certainly give it a try before i officially put it on my hate list. But as it sounds right now, it sounds as if its Guild wars, but pve (which im GREATLY looking forward too, i love games with story rather than "OMFG KILL KILL KILL"... and i dont care if people call me a carebear).
Though i believe we can both agree: WoW lacks depth of any kinds Its item creation is bland, roleplaying is practically zilch, and powers are just recycled and only become more powerful (I like seeing new animations everytime i gain a power heh)
Originally posted by FutureP Originally posted by seraph403 Part 2 I hate to admit it but games like EQ and WoW were good for the community (except for those annoying blizz kids...) Each server had a feeling of family and community. Each server had players that everybody knew and when you saw them it was instantly "Wow!!! /bow /worship" because they probably attained a feat that none has accomplished on that server before. Wow. Its crazy to me how I played the same game as you (WoW) but I can not relate whatsoever. The punchline: WoW's community is/was HORRIBLE. In fact, thats the reason I stopped playing. Too many douchbags playing it because its teh cool thing to do. Its not a great game imo, just a popular one. Its has its high points, but they are heavily overshadowed by its low points. Honestly, after playing for a few months I said to myself that I never want to play another MMO again...that is until I gave DDO a shot (just because I used to play PnP.) Sure, DDO is heavily instanced. Its was a turnoff right from the start. That is, until I did a few dungeon runs. Then I realized where this game really shines. It actually has enjoyable gameplay! Its like having a touch of that immersive single player vibe in an MMO. What I mean is, it takes you on a ride as you move through the dungeon. Because of this I see exactly why they choose the instancing. The dungeons are more than just fight/rest/fight/rest/fight/rest...exc exc. You actually have to work together, with your strengths, as a team. What a concept Even further, before I began the beta I was a soloer at least 75% of the time in other games. But this game made it so easy to find decent groups it wasnt even funny (at least in my experience.) Even better, the dungeons are all close by so no running for 15 min to meet a group just to START a quest. Boom, you group...enter dungeon/quest...and its time to game! Usually it takes me less than 5 min to find a group. Sometimes I had invites before the initial screen loaded all the way. In this game I WANT to group...even if I only have time for one quest. Its great. Im no fanboi, the game needs a little tweaking, and im not going to say its perfect. But seriously, all this hating makes no sense to me. This game has alot going for it, and its a shame many of the people bashing it cant see that. Either way, if you are just peeking into these forums...dont believe the negative hype without first trying it for yourself. Because for some, although it may not be perfect, it is still a blessing compared to the MMO monontony!
This is right along the lines of my experience of both WoW and DDO. In wow there were very few if any times where I would even get a thank-you for saving someone's ass, mostly they just ignored me and went on with their grinding. I have had no problems making friends in DDO, all of the people I have on my friends list came from groups I was in, and I often get invited to party with them because when I was grouped with them, I made a good impression on them and often they did the same for me. In DDO because the server populations are so small (approx 1000 players on at a time) you will often see many of the same players all over the place, and if you are a good player you will be sought after for groups. The end result is no different from any other MMO, it's the way it comes about that is.
Originally posted by Minsc Originally posted by FutureP Originally posted by seraph403 Part 2 I hate to admit it but games like EQ and WoW were good for the community (except for those annoying blizz kids...) Each server had a feeling of family and community. Each server had players that everybody knew and when you saw them it was instantly "Wow!!! /bow /worship" because they probably attained a feat that none has accomplished on that server before. Wow. Its crazy to me how I played the same game as you (WoW) but I can not relate whatsoever. The punchline: WoW's community is/was HORRIBLE. In fact, thats the reason I stopped playing. Too many douchbags playing it because its teh cool thing to do. Its not a great game imo, just a popular one. Its has its high points, but they are heavily overshadowed by its low points. Honestly, after playing for a few months I said to myself that I never want to play another MMO again...that is until I gave DDO a shot (just because I used to play PnP.) Sure, DDO is heavily instanced. Its was a turnoff right from the start. That is, until I did a few dungeon runs. Then I realized where this game really shines. It actually has enjoyable gameplay! Its like having a touch of that immersive single player vibe in an MMO. What I mean is, it takes you on a ride as you move through the dungeon. Because of this I see exactly why they choose the instancing. The dungeons are more than just fight/rest/fight/rest/fight/rest...exc exc. You actually have to work together, with your strengths, as a team. What a concept Even further, before I began the beta I was a soloer at least 75% of the time in other games. But this game made it so easy to find decent groups it wasnt even funny (at least in my experience.) Even better, the dungeons are all close by so no running for 15 min to meet a group just to START a quest. Boom, you group...enter dungeon/quest...and its time to game! Usually it takes me less than 5 min to find a group. Sometimes I had invites before the initial screen loaded all the way. In this game I WANT to group...even if I only have time for one quest. Its great. Im no fanboi, the game needs a little tweaking, and im not going to say its perfect. But seriously, all this hating makes no sense to me. This game has alot going for it, and its a shame many of the people bashing it cant see that. Either way, if you are just peeking into these forums...dont believe the negative hype without first trying it for yourself. Because for some, although it may not be perfect, it is still a blessing compared to the MMO monontony!
This is right along the lines of my experience of both WoW and DDO. In wow there were very few if any times where I would even get a thank-you for saving someone's ass, mostly they just ignored me and went on with their grinding. I have had no problems making friends in DDO, all of the people I have on my friends list came from groups I was in, and I often get invited to party with them because when I was grouped with them, I made a good impression on them and often they did the same for me. In DDO because the server populations are so small (approx 1000 players on at a time) you will often see many of the same players all over the place, and if you are a good player you will be sought after for groups. The end result is no different from any other MMO, it's the way it comes about that is.
ah yes, this is true and this is what will make DDO shine over Guild Wars as far as community. Guild wars has essentially thousands upon thousands of players whos only interest now is "Run me for 1000 gold"
DDO with a much smaller community will create a more closeness. Never thought of it this way. good point!
Comments
I do know what is reasonable in a regular MMO, at least those I've played but I had no idea what would be acceptable in a D&D game and how you would go about it. What you say makes sense, though. Thanks for an answer that doesn't contain a snarky comment.
I'm afraid of the Giant Green Poster!
This is what I posted on a different forum...It relates to the issue of DDO being an Online Game rather than an MMO...(Note - I took out some parts of my post)
-----------------------------------------------------------
These are my thoughts:
More Instanced = Closer to "Single Player" games
Less Instanced = Closer to the "Original" feel that MMORPGs used to give
I'm going to compare by using games I've played mostly... Look at COH for instance... when fighting in the zones and not in instance, you get a feeling that other people/players are around you as well, even though you're doing nothing whatsoever with them...
In DDO, it's closer to a "Single Player" game because u don't get the feeling that people are around, when you're actually doing something... Lets say for instance this was to become an online rpg, it wouldn't have people around in taverns,towns,etc. And you would end up picking up a group game the same way as in Diablo games... Imagine how it would be like... Apparently, it wouldn't feel like a huge difference from how it is now in the game, (atleast to me it feels that way)...
Since this is being geared to mmo players, It probably upsets them that it feels so much closer to a "Single Player" type game... I think alot of complaints about Guild Wars, had alot to do with this same reason too...
Note - I don't think there's a name for the factor that causes the way Original MMOs feel versus Single Player Games, so, I'm just saying how it is...
Edit1: Bottomline
MMO - can feel like Single Player Game or Game where you and others
can affect the world/(People around the player)... Tend to have
little to no plots and an open story...
Single Player Game(Or Online Game) - Only you or your group can affect
the world... Tend to have plots
and a single/main storyline
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
weird it seems that my essay i wrote prior to this never got posted...
(seems like there is a limit so ill break my posts up)ugh...
Part 1
well ill retype it but the short but sweet version:
ive played dnd table top since grade 10 (yay second edition), and ive played mmo's since grade 9 (yay evercrack), and im 4th year college student right now so that should give you a bit of history on me.
Ill start by saying im not to happy with the way the games shapping up. No the instances dont bother me that much. But i will point out in every MMO ive played up until this point ive made some of my best friends by aiding a player who i see is loosing against a monster. whether it be stealing the aggro so the player can rest up and mend to his wounds, throwing a heal on that player, or be it just nuking the snot out of the monster with a spell.
Also with an entire game instanced you will have the guild wars problem where you ally with a group of players, say "Hey awesome job! let me add you to my buddy list" and never see that name again, except for 4 weeks down the road when you're cleaning up your friends list and you see that persons name and ponder "who exactally is this person again...?"
Part 2
I hate to admit it but games like EQ and WoW were good for the community (except for those annoying blizz kids...) Each server had a feeling of family and community. Each server had players that everybody knew and when you saw them it was instantly "Wow!!! /bow /worship" because they probably attained a feat that none has accomplished on that server before.
DDO had the potential to be the perfect MMO. 3.5 has been play tested for years, and has been worked out to be near perfection in balance. The world was already laid out (even be it eberron *puke* lol) all they had to do was program it.
The item creation was already perfected as well with the DND system. Spell points just make the game seem like a EQ / WoW knock off "Heres your health bar, heres your mana bar." What was wrong with scrolls, wands, and staffs? Any experienced player would agree that it was practically foolish to memorize attack spells (short of a few higher level ones) and just use wands and staffs for your fireballs/lightning bolts/magic missiles. Save the spell slots for utility spells, such as darkvision, see invisibility, knock, shatter, identify, invisibility, etc.
Lastly i want to note to the gentleman who said he cant play hours on end because he has children so this "run a mission, get xp, repeat" type deal since like a good idea. Heres some bad news: the quests themselves (mid level to end game) will take a handful of hours on end. This means when you play for 2 1/2 hours and are 60-70% done your quest, and something happens with your children and you need to log, that was a waste of 2 1/2 hours since the xp is dished out at the end. Seems like a poor idea to me. Ill admit, i love quests... i LOVE em, in guild wars i was ALWAYS questing, i NEVER grinded (i hate grinding...). thats my 2 cents, hopefully this post doesnt get deleted or whatever happened heh.
edit: ill also appologize for my posts being in 2 halves, it seems to eat up my post when i keep it in 1.
Wow. Its crazy to me how I played the same game as you (WoW) but I can not relate whatsoever.
The punchline: WoW's community is/was HORRIBLE. In fact, thats the reason I stopped playing. Too many douchbags playing it because its teh cool thing to do. Its not a great game imo, just a popular one. Its has its high points, but they are heavily overshadowed by its low points. Honestly, after playing for a few months I said to myself that I never want to play another MMO again...that is until I gave DDO a shot (just because I used to play PnP.)
Sure, DDO is heavily instanced. Its was a turnoff right from the start. That is, until I did a few dungeon runs. Then I realized where this game really shines. It actually has enjoyable gameplay! Its like having a touch of that immersive single player vibe in an MMO. What I mean is, it takes you on a ride as you move through the dungeon. Because of this I see exactly why they choose the instancing. The dungeons are more than just fight/rest/fight/rest/fight/rest...exc exc. You actually have to work together, with your strengths, as a team. What a concept
Even further, before I began the beta I was a soloer at least 75% of the time in other games. But this game made it so easy to find decent groups it wasnt even funny (at least in my experience.) Even better, the dungeons are all close by so no running for 15 min to meet a group just to START a quest. Boom, you group...enter dungeon/quest...and its time to game! Usually it takes me less than 5 min to find a group. Sometimes I had invites before the initial screen loaded all the way. In this game I WANT to group...even if I only have time for one quest. Its great.
Im no fanboi, the game needs a little tweaking, and im not going to say its perfect. But seriously, all this hating makes no sense to me. This game has alot going for it, and its a shame many of the people bashing it cant see that. Either way, if you are just peeking into these forums...dont believe the negative hype without first trying it for yourself. Because for some, although it may not be perfect, it is still a blessing compared to the MMO monontony!
Oh i would agree FutureP, the community in WoW was 90% immature and WoW became what EQ ultimately became: a game of grind for items and xp.
Thats what i truly respected about guildwars. like i mentioned i NEVER grinded once in guild wars, but as stated earlier in this thread from another member, seeing "level 8 fighter, lfg" or "level 4 cleric, lfg" will steal away from the aspect of roleplaying which is the core reason i play D&D.
I wish there was zones that were instanced, like WoW, and open areas to explore, open cities to check out, sit in a tavern, have a drink, socialize. This wont be around in a completely instanced game. As I mentioned (and a few others in this thread and ones alike) the aspect of making friends will become very difficult. I joined one of the most powerful guilds in WoW via healing a dying mage of the guild and assisting him in fighting off horde while he was fighting monsters. This created a commedery, a brotherhood bond, which an instanced game cannot offer.
Im not saying i wont play DDO, im probably one of the biggest fans of PnP D&D on this forum, so i will certainly give it a try before i officially put it on my hate list. But as it sounds right now, it sounds as if its Guild wars, but pve (which im GREATLY looking forward too, i love games with story rather than "OMFG KILL KILL KILL"... and i dont care if people call me a carebear).
Though i believe we can both agree: WoW lacks depth of any kinds
Its item creation is bland, roleplaying is practically zilch, and powers are just recycled and only become more powerful (I like seeing new animations everytime i gain a power heh)
This is right along the lines of my experience of both WoW and DDO. In wow there were very few if any times where I would even get a thank-you for saving someone's ass, mostly they just ignored me and went on with their grinding. I have had no problems making friends in DDO, all of the people I have on my friends list came from groups I was in, and I often get invited to party with them because when I was grouped with them, I made a good impression on them and often they did the same for me. In DDO because the server populations are so small (approx 1000 players on at a time) you will often see many of the same players all over the place, and if you are a good player you will be sought after for groups. The end result is no different from any other MMO, it's the way it comes about that is.
This is right along the lines of my experience of both WoW and DDO. In wow there were very few if any times where I would even get a thank-you for saving someone's ass, mostly they just ignored me and went on with their grinding. I have had no problems making friends in DDO, all of the people I have on my friends list came from groups I was in, and I often get invited to party with them because when I was grouped with them, I made a good impression on them and often they did the same for me. In DDO because the server populations are so small (approx 1000 players on at a time) you will often see many of the same players all over the place, and if you are a good player you will be sought after for groups. The end result is no different from any other MMO, it's the way it comes about that is.
ah yes, this is true and this is what will make DDO shine over Guild Wars as far as community. Guild wars has essentially thousands upon thousands of players whos only interest now is "Run me for 1000 gold"
DDO with a much smaller community will create a more closeness. Never thought of it this way. good point!