Originally posted by Scambug Depends how much of a sandbox it is. If it's just going to be another quest grinder with instanced dungeons and the usual no-risk gameplay philosophy, I'll pass.
I see "risk" thrown around a lot, what mmorpgs lack any sort of danger or risk?
Originally posted by Scambug Depends how much of a sandbox it is. If it's just going to be another quest grinder with instanced dungeons and the usual no-risk gameplay philosophy, I'll pass.
I see "risk" thrown around a lot, what mmorpgs lack any sort of danger or risk?
They usually are referring to what the death penalty is. WoW had virtually no penalty to dying. EQ you could de-level and on PvP servers, lose loot. Risk then is "how much does being stupid hurt?"
Time is really the only penalty an MMO can place on a player. Time to make a corpse run, time to earn gold to repair gear, time to wait before respawn, etc.
MMOs are all vying for a player's time so if the penalty is too high, they won't play. Time is the only true commodity in an MMO so they have to find ways to disguise it. Repairs on broken gear because you die is just the time spent gather the gold to pay for those repairs. Losing EXP is time spent getting that EXP back. The question that needs to be answered is "If I screw up 2 hours into a raid, how much time should it take to remedy that as a consequence?"
In Everquest as a sample you had to A: Go get your body and B:Lose EXP, and C (On PVP) lose gear.
In a worse case scenario your corpse run could take 10-15 minutes, another hour or two to earn back your exp and in the case of C, 10-15 hours depending on what you lost for gear. EQ1 had a really high cost of death. So does Eve Online. A bad death could set you back months, and in a worse case, years of progress.
Yep, another Trailblazer or equivalent if the AI systems and design shift match what was outlined at Live. Not only because those systems will need a lot of testing but it's something I want to support, no matter if it's SoE or an indie developer.
Originally posted by Scambug Depends how much of a sandbox it is. If it's just going to be another quest grinder with instanced dungeons and the usual no-risk gameplay philosophy, I'll pass.
I see "risk" thrown around a lot, what mmorpgs lack any sort of danger or risk?
They usually are referring to what the death penalty is. WoW had virtually no penalty to dying. EQ you could de-level and on PvP servers, lose loot. Risk then is "how much does being stupid hurt?"
Time is really the only penalty an MMO can place on a player. Time to make a corpse run, time to earn gold to repair gear, time to wait before respawn, etc.
MMOs are all vying for a player's time so if the penalty is too high, they won't play. Time is the only true commodity in an MMO so they have to find ways to disguise it. Repairs on broken gear because you die is just the time spent gather the gold to pay for those repairs. Losing EXP is time spent getting that EXP back. The question that needs to be answered is "If I screw up 2 hours into a raid, how much time should it take to remedy that as a consequence?"
In Everquest as a sample you had to A: Go get your body and B:Lose EXP, and C (On PVP) lose gear.
In a worse case scenario your corpse run could take 10-15 minutes, another hour or two to earn back your exp and in the case of C, 10-15 hours depending on what you lost for gear. EQ1 had a really high cost of death. So does Eve Online. A bad death could set you back months, and in a worse case, years of progress.
I assume as much, but sometimes it seems like people give older games way too much credit. I remember dying less in EQ/DAoC era because I simply avoided "risky" behavior. Which to me is the opposite of what players should be doing.
If players avoid "danger" and only go in when victories are almost assured, it kind of defeats the purpose of playing an adventure game.
I personally love dying. Penalties and all, but like you said, time is really the only thing lost and I've never accepted the whole time sink = risk, danger, challenge, hardcore view.
I'd rather get out there, take chances, die, and then try again. Should be some consequence beyond a 30 sec loss of time (WoW), but I remember dying on boats in EQ or random areas and just giving up because I couldn't get my corpse back. Players should never feel defeated, they should be games after all.
I'm hoping EQN's procedurally generated content sorts itself out. Made it down to Tier 5, found an awesome rare spawn with a big chest, if the group dies, by the time everyone makes it back down, either the mob is gone or someone else has come by and killed it. Make it all about time without all the veil of "risk" or loss masking what is really going on.
Originally posted by Scambug Depends how much of a sandbox it is. If it's just going to be another quest grinder with instanced dungeons and the usual no-risk gameplay philosophy, I'll pass.
If their systems work the way they say they will, Next won't be a themepark or a sandbox, it will be something new and in need of it's own label.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
What I have seen in Landmark Alpha I am liking. However, a lot depends on what kind of systems they are going to be adding. Since all I have to go on is talk, I have to wait for more information before making that kind of judgement. Undecided for me.
After the nightmare that was the launch of landmark alpha, I will only buy a next package if they make a gesture to those of us who ponied up for the landmark alpha.
After the nightmare that was the launch of landmark alpha, I will only buy a next package if they make a gesture to those of us who ponied up for the landmark alpha.
Personally I feel 50% off would be about right.
Nightmare? It's an alpha, having claims auto-wiping for a couple of days isn't that big of a deal. They have been faster, more responsive, and more productive in alpha than any MMO I can think of was at launch.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
After the nightmare that was the launch of landmark alpha, I will only buy a next package if they make a gesture to those of us who ponied up for the landmark alpha.
Personally I feel 50% off would be about right.
Nightmare? It's an alpha, having claims auto-wiping for a couple of days isn't that big of a deal. They have been faster, more responsive, and more productive in alpha than any MMO I can think of was at launch.
Sorry but when SOE decided to :
Market and charge for alpha access.
Show " alpha " videos that were total and complete fabrications.
Spin the launch of alpha into this huge marketing promo event.
Not provide enough hardware on day one of launch to support the sales numbers.
SOE lost ALL rights to play the " It is ONLY alpha " card.
If SOE doesn't like it then they need to treat ALPHA stage like ALPHA, and be VERY selective about what systems and how many users have access to the ALPHA content. Hell for that matter if they want to play the " Alpha card " then maybe they need to compensate alpha testers the way we use to be compensated when the industry first started.
After the nightmare that was the launch of landmark alpha, I will only buy a next package if they make a gesture to those of us who ponied up for the landmark alpha.
Personally I feel 50% off would be about right.
Nightmare? It's an alpha, having claims auto-wiping for a couple of days isn't that big of a deal. They have been faster, more responsive, and more productive in alpha than any MMO I can think of was at launch.
It is a good example why letting people buy into alpha/beta isn't all easy money. It's a very cash now and worry about the future later, mentality. I'm sure there are some people who thought the game was actually called landmark alpha....Lots of people either don't understand or refuse to understand what a test is but give their money away anyway. They may learn their lesson the hard way but they also carry a grudge along with it.
I don't think they could have been more open about what we were paying for which was 60% systems that had been run on an internal server. Because of this the paying part is invalid as a reason not to have serious problems common in alpha.
Maybe it's because I follow them on Twitter but the amount of updates and communication during the launch of alpha was stellar and they've continued it since.
If the "alpha fabrications" were of combat that was for EQN, not Landmark. Any other footage was from the livestreams leading up to alpha.
Show " alpha " videos that were total and complete fabrications.
Spin the launch of alpha into this huge marketing promo event.
Not provide enough hardware on day one of launch to support the sales numbers.
SOE lost ALL rights to play the " It is ONLY alpha " card.
If SOE doesn't like it then they need to treat ALPHA stage like ALPHA, and be VERY selective about what systems and how many users have access to the ALPHA content. Hell for that matter if they want to play the " Alpha card " then maybe they need to compensate alpha testers the way we use to be compensated when the industry first started.
Compensating alpha testers is a terrible idea. Then you would have people who were there just to get paid. The way they are doing it, the only people who are there are people who have already proven they care about the game, and who have a literal investment in wanting to give good feedback so that the product improves.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
After the nightmare that was the launch of landmark alpha, I will only buy a next package if they make a gesture to those of us who ponied up for the landmark alpha.
Personally I feel 50% off would be about right.
Nightmare? It's an alpha, having claims auto-wiping for a couple of days isn't that big of a deal. They have been faster, more responsive, and more productive in alpha than any MMO I can think of was at launch.
It is a good example why letting people buy into alpha/beta isn't all easy money. It's a very cash now and worry about the future later, mentality. I'm sure there are some people who thought the game was actually called landmark alpha....Lots of people either don't understand or refuse to understand what a test is but give their money away anyway. They may learn their lesson the hard way but they also carry a grudge along with it.
Some people will always be ignorant, nothing you can do about that. They spelled out everything, plain as I think a reasonable/average person needed it done. Alpha, minus templates will be wiped, so none of the other stuff matters about plots and such. If people decide to not actually listen and apply their own definitions/expectations on things, that is their fault, and nothing ever is a 100% consensus, so I think they will still sleep at night, with very few people, from what I have seen haven't understood what they are doing.
Will buy EQN Alp... wait a minute... I wont play much if I do buy it. I hate wipes. Well, I'm not sure why it wont be wtf awesome. l'll be really hard to screw this one up. Yeah, I'll but it.
This thread reminds me of a saying..........how does it go.............something about a fool.............and..........his money,
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Originally posted by MMOman101 This thread reminds me of a saying..........how does it go.............something about a fool.............and..........his money,
Dies with his money in his mattress, not spending it and having fun?
Yes because there are only two options.
Logical fallacy much?
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Comments
I see "risk" thrown around a lot, what mmorpgs lack any sort of danger or risk?
They usually are referring to what the death penalty is. WoW had virtually no penalty to dying. EQ you could de-level and on PvP servers, lose loot. Risk then is "how much does being stupid hurt?"
Time is really the only penalty an MMO can place on a player. Time to make a corpse run, time to earn gold to repair gear, time to wait before respawn, etc.
MMOs are all vying for a player's time so if the penalty is too high, they won't play. Time is the only true commodity in an MMO so they have to find ways to disguise it. Repairs on broken gear because you die is just the time spent gather the gold to pay for those repairs. Losing EXP is time spent getting that EXP back. The question that needs to be answered is "If I screw up 2 hours into a raid, how much time should it take to remedy that as a consequence?"
In Everquest as a sample you had to A: Go get your body and B:Lose EXP, and C (On PVP) lose gear.
In a worse case scenario your corpse run could take 10-15 minutes, another hour or two to earn back your exp and in the case of C, 10-15 hours depending on what you lost for gear. EQ1 had a really high cost of death. So does Eve Online. A bad death could set you back months, and in a worse case, years of progress.
I assume as much, but sometimes it seems like people give older games way too much credit. I remember dying less in EQ/DAoC era because I simply avoided "risky" behavior. Which to me is the opposite of what players should be doing.
If players avoid "danger" and only go in when victories are almost assured, it kind of defeats the purpose of playing an adventure game.
I personally love dying. Penalties and all, but like you said, time is really the only thing lost and I've never accepted the whole time sink = risk, danger, challenge, hardcore view.
I'd rather get out there, take chances, die, and then try again. Should be some consequence beyond a 30 sec loss of time (WoW), but I remember dying on boats in EQ or random areas and just giving up because I couldn't get my corpse back. Players should never feel defeated, they should be games after all.
I'm hoping EQN's procedurally generated content sorts itself out. Made it down to Tier 5, found an awesome rare spawn with a big chest, if the group dies, by the time everyone makes it back down, either the mob is gone or someone else has come by and killed it. Make it all about time without all the veil of "risk" or loss masking what is really going on.
If their systems work the way they say they will, Next won't be a themepark or a sandbox, it will be something new and in need of it's own label.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
After the nightmare that was the launch of landmark alpha, I will only buy a next package if they make a gesture to those of us who ponied up for the landmark alpha.
Personally I feel 50% off would be about right.
Nightmare? It's an alpha, having claims auto-wiping for a couple of days isn't that big of a deal. They have been faster, more responsive, and more productive in alpha than any MMO I can think of was at launch.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Sorry but when SOE decided to :
Market and charge for alpha access.
Show " alpha " videos that were total and complete fabrications.
Spin the launch of alpha into this huge marketing promo event.
Not provide enough hardware on day one of launch to support the sales numbers.
SOE lost ALL rights to play the " It is ONLY alpha " card.
If SOE doesn't like it then they need to treat ALPHA stage like ALPHA, and be VERY selective about what systems and how many users have access to the ALPHA content. Hell for that matter if they want to play the " Alpha card " then maybe they need to compensate alpha testers the way we use to be compensated when the industry first started.
It is a good example why letting people buy into alpha/beta isn't all easy money. It's a very cash now and worry about the future later, mentality. I'm sure there are some people who thought the game was actually called landmark alpha....Lots of people either don't understand or refuse to understand what a test is but give their money away anyway. They may learn their lesson the hard way but they also carry a grudge along with it.
Maybe it's because I follow them on Twitter but the amount of updates and communication during the launch of alpha was stellar and they've continued it since.
If the "alpha fabrications" were of combat that was for EQN, not Landmark. Any other footage was from the livestreams leading up to alpha.
Compensating alpha testers is a terrible idea. Then you would have people who were there just to get paid. The way they are doing it, the only people who are there are people who have already proven they care about the game, and who have a literal investment in wanting to give good feedback so that the product improves.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Some people will always be ignorant, nothing you can do about that. They spelled out everything, plain as I think a reasonable/average person needed it done. Alpha, minus templates will be wiped, so none of the other stuff matters about plots and such. If people decide to not actually listen and apply their own definitions/expectations on things, that is their fault, and nothing ever is a 100% consensus, so I think they will still sleep at night, with very few people, from what I have seen haven't understood what they are doing.
Bought Planetside 2 alpha, great purchase.
Bought EQN:L Alpha, logging in now.
Will buy EQN Alp... wait a minute... I wont play much if I do buy it. I hate wipes. Well, I'm not sure why it wont be wtf awesome. l'll be really hard to screw this one up. Yeah, I'll but it.
--John Ruskin
Dies with his money in his mattress, not spending it and having fun?Probably not...
I've never been a fan of founder packs, they just make me feel like the company cares more about what my money thinks than what I do.
Yes because there are only two options.
Logical fallacy much?
--John Ruskin