There may be threat coded into abilities that aren't up front but SoE stated that with the AI in EQN the mobs wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for a tank taunting. They also explained that sentient mobs will be one of the player classes with a full compliment of that classes abilities. By looking at what type weapon the mob has and how they hold it can tell you what class they are.
Already had that in Cata, he who does the most can quickly grab the aggro regardless of role (click photo and see the red ">" markers [Vuhdo aggro indicators] on the healbox on right, and I sure wasn't tanking...just building up stupid HP -- "Spell is not ready yet" -- as I right-clicked ASAP to get it before another AoE missile hits the group)...
Players are going to hate managing the aggro, and will welcome the tank/heal/dps roles again. As the boss/mobs will aggro anything their designed to "think" as "helping" - including the very mechanics to do anything.
Players won't miss those roles because they won't be missing. EQN classes will have roles. They will just be played differently and require some actual brain power instead of hitting a few buttons to magically make everything work properly.
If they design all the classes well, there should be room to be offensive/defensive/support with most if not all classes. Hopefully not all at once (GW2) but if a Warrior, which we've seen, is naturally "tanky", adds on 4 skills that add to support or offense, hopefully it can contribute to those roles. While a Warrior that tacks on 4 "tank" abilities is a mobile wall.
Originally posted by evilized So... it has been mentioned a few times in this thread as well as countless others covering this same topic and conveniently passed over; the trinity system will be present in eq next, just not the trinity you are familiar with. The AI is the main thing that will be driving this game into next - gen territory and the more intelligent the AI becomes, the closer it's play style will come to an actual human. What does this mean? It means that pve tactics will start to mirror common pvp tactics more and more. Mobs will make intelligent decisions when in combat; they won't be standing there attacking the warrior because he was pulling threat, no, the mob will be going after the target of opportunity - it will then be the warrior's (or any other group member for that matter) job to keep the mob rooted, stunned, knocked down or otherwise occupied until it is defeated. I apologize for the wall of text, my phone doesn't allow for line breaks in this forum.
Along with all that, I would assume from what they've shown/said that PVE content in general will not be what we've known. Three Orcs won't just hang out in camp waiting to get pulled one by one to respawn 5 min later. DG talked about "thousands" of Orcs in Crushbone. I foresee a lot of large scale combat, even just the casual in the middle of the woods stuff.
The trinity is okay for 1 big boss or lone mob, but toss in 10, 20, 50 mobs and the trinity isn't very useful, unless 50 mobs really don't like their moms talked about. I'm hoping what has been written in the Novellas translates to what will be in game.
I think until we actually get more details or see the AI in action, this level of confusion and disbelief will continue. Even though I'm hopeful, I have no clue what is going to happen, just like those without any faith.
Come on SOE!
So basically we have GW2 all over again with Zergfest? Where everyone has to watch out for themselves when the chaos starts? BUT just then you responded to another thread saying roles will be there.. So which is it.. ROLES or NO ROLES.. It can't be both.. The only thing I can figure out with all this hokey pokey is that, according to SOE, you can still play the tank even tho it isn't required..... OH.. OK I see.. So when I jump into an encounter were 5 others are playing GW2 Zergfest, I can pretend to be a plate wearing tank and fool myself.. LOL But my presence probably makes no difference in what the other 5 are doing.. I might as well be invisible as far as they are concerned..
GW2 tied that, and it sucks.. LOL Oh sure I can be a water elementalist and go around pretending to be a healer.. but seriously? In the end. it's still ZERGFEST.. LOL
PS Edit: Now don't get me wrong.. I'm all for solobilty and don't mind the GW2 style of soft grouping, and open world boss situations.. I just wish ArenaNet tweaked the class skills a bit, and made some encounters more role dependant..
So which is it.. ROLES or NO ROLES.. It can't be both..
I like to see them try, but if it was such a sure thing, it would've been implemented years ago. EQII was doing that whole Fighter 2.0 revamp in 2009+, they didn't change the roles then, when there was an opportunity. Not like it couldn't be done, especially when seeing paladins were classified as scouts.
There may be threat coded into abilities that aren't up front but SoE stated that with the AI in EQN the mobs wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for a tank taunting. They also explained that sentient mobs will be one of the player classes with a full compliment of that classes abilities. By looking at what type weapon the mob has and how they hold it can tell you what class they are.
Yes, I saw that, but where did I say anything about taunting? "Fighter ability tier 1, 2 ability points: Your melee attacks generate (damage * 1.25) threat," "Rogue ability tier 1, 2 ability points: Your melee attacks generate (damage * 0.8) threat." There will be something like this, or the game will be unplayable for most classes.
Originally posted by Aelious
I say this because a game like LoL is able to have really good AI without any additional threat mechanics. I think this is possible because classes are known and can code how each ability should be countered or reacted to. Dave Georgeson has hinted at EQN combat being MOBA like, which is great in my opinion.
Ugh, LoL is terrible! MOBA is fine for a casual game, I suppose, but this is supposed to be a premier title.
Originally posted by Aelious It could allow for roles outside the trinity which may be required and also have engaging combat.
Have these people never actually played D&D? You want more roles? Add in traps, so you need a rogueish type or your healer is going to be working overtime; add in wilderness where you will spend extra time (and so fight extra monsters) if you don't have a druid or ranger to guide you; add in fights on other planes of existence, against demigods who can bind or banish you if you don't have a monk-type class to anchor you; add in armies of undead or brainwashed cultists that you need an enchanter or necromancer to deal with.
I remember in original EQ when taunt was basically useless and rogues were unwelcome in groups because they either had to sit out half the fight or die immediately. Surely they aren't stupid enough to let that happen again?
There may be threat coded into abilities that aren't up front but SoE stated that with the AI in EQN the mobs wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for a tank taunting. They also explained that sentient mobs will be one of the player classes with a full compliment of that classes abilities. By looking at what type weapon the mob has and how they hold it can tell you what class they are.
Already had that in Cata, he who does the most can quickly grab the aggro regardless of role (click photo and see the red ">" markers [Vuhdo aggro indicators] on the healbox on right, and I sure wasn't tanking...just building up stupid HP -- "Spell is not ready yet" -- as I right-clicked ASAP to get it before another AoE missile hits the group)...
Players are going to hate managing the aggro, and will welcome the tank/heal/dps roles again. As the boss/mobs will aggro anything their designed to "think" as "helping" - including the very mechanics to do anything.
Players won't miss those roles because they won't be missing. EQN classes will have roles. They will just be played differently and require some actual brain power instead of hitting a few buttons to magically make everything work properly.
Why would I want that? I'm already busy trying to keep 1 to 40 people alive, I don't have time for gimmicks.
Now if DPS is bored, then work on DPS mechanics to keep themselves busy. My role is to keep players alive, especially a tank from being insta-gibbed, or the raid will be saying, "Let the Holy paladin tank it!" (great motivator to HEALLL!!!!!!). o.O
Well SOE you better realize that most people paying money for an everquest game want everquest 3 with mechanics of eq1 and eq2. Most people on eq1 and eq2 are over the age of 30 that have the money and enjoy playing a roll in the game. Tank, healer, utility,dps. I'm currently in a guild with well over 100 accounts and most will not play EQN. Most are leaving as soon as the next MMO that comes out and is worth while playing that has the Holy Trinity .Zerging games are for kids sitting in front of mommy's and daddy's big screen TV on their PS4. If I wanted to play a zerging game, I would go back to GW2 ohh ....wait may be not people stopped playing that game because of those game mechanics and no real rolls. I don't know who ever came up with this kind of of everquest game.I have played eq1 and eq2 since launch. Along with mostly all guild mates they are deeply disappointed in EQN.And you can say well those people can just continue to play an outdated game, shame on you. Guess time will tell how many account you will hold in these games over the next year or two.
Originally posted by Allein Originally posted by evilized So... it has been mentioned a few times in this thread as well as countless others covering this same topic and conveniently passed over; the trinity system will be present in eq next, just not the trinity you are familiar with. The AI is the main thing that will be driving this game into next - gen territory and the more intelligent the AI becomes, the closer it's play style will come to an actual human. What does this mean? It means that pve tactics will start to mirror common pvp tactics more and more. Mobs will make intelligent decisions when in combat; they won't be standing there attacking the warrior because he was pulling threat, no, the mob will be going after the target of opportunity - it will then be the warrior's (or any other group member for that matter) job to keep the mob rooted, stunned, knocked down or otherwise occupied until it is defeated. I apologize for the wall of text, my phone doesn't allow for line breaks in this forum.
Along with all that, I would assume from what they've shown/said that PVE content in general will not be what we've known. Three Orcs won't just hang out in camp waiting to get pulled one by one to respawn 5 min later. DG talked about "thousands" of Orcs in Crushbone. I foresee a lot of large scale combat, even just the casual in the middle of the woods stuff.
The trinity is okay for 1 big boss or lone mob, but toss in 10, 20, 50 mobs and the trinity isn't very useful, unless 50 mobs really don't like their moms talked about. I'm hoping what has been written in the Novellas translates to what will be in game.
I think until we actually get more details or see the AI in action, this level of confusion and disbelief will continue. Even though I'm hopeful, I have no clue what is going to happen, just like those without any faith.
Come on SOE!
So basically we have GW2 all over again with Zergfest? Where everyone has to watch out for themselves when the chaos starts? BUT just then you responded to another thread saying roles will be there.. So which is it.. ROLES or NO ROLES.. It can't be both.. The only thing I can figure out with all this hokey pokey is that, according to SOE, you can still play the tank even tho it isn't required..... OH.. OK I see.. So when I jump into an encounter were 5 others are playing GW2 Zergfest, I can pretend to be a plate wearing tank and fool myself.. LOL But my presence probably makes no difference in what the other 5 are doing.. I might as well be invisible as far as they are concerned..
GW2 tied that, and it sucks.. LOL Oh sure I can be a water elementalist and go around pretending to be a healer.. but seriously? In the end. it's still ZERGFEST.. LOL
PS Edit: Now don't get me wrong.. I'm all for solobilty and don't mind the GW2 style of soft grouping, and open world boss situations.. I just wish ArenaNet tweaked the class skills a bit, and made some encounters more role dependant..
I encourage you to read my comment about the AI and how, as AI gets smarter the traditional "trinity" will evolve more into what you see in pvp situations. There are still tanks, healers and dps but there is no absolute value on each role. Yes, to a degree everyone will have to be watching out for themselves however the "tank" abilities will more than likely be mobility / cc based or even debuff based rather than threat based. Healers will obviously heal and dps will do their thing. The roles WILL still exist but they will play differentlY from what people have been familiar with over the past 12-14 years. As a reference, think of how things worked in early UO. The combat was extremely fun but there were no dedicated roles and it worked very well.
Originally posted by Aelious codejack There may be threat coded into abilities that aren't up front but SoE stated that with the AI in EQN the mobs wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for a tank taunting. They also explained that sentient mobs will be one of the player classes with a full compliment of that classes abilities. By looking at what type weapon the mob has and how they hold it can tell you what class they are.
Already had that in Cata, he who does the most can quickly grab the aggro regardless of role (click photo and see the red ">" markers [Vuhdo aggro indicators] on the healbox on right, and I sure wasn't tanking...just building up stupid HP -- "Spell is not ready yet" -- as I right-clicked ASAP to get it before another AoE missile hits the group)...Players are going to hate managing the aggro, and will welcome the tank/heal/dps roles again. As the boss/mobs will aggro anything their designed to "think" as "helping" - including the very mechanics to do anything.
Players won't miss those roles because they won't be missing. EQN classes will have roles. They will just be played differently and require some actual brain power instead of hitting a few buttons to magically make everything work properly.
Why would I want that? I'm already busy trying to keep 1 to 40 people alive, I don't have time for gimmicks.
Now if DPS is bored, then work on DPS mechanics to keep themselves busy. My role is to keep players alive, especially a tank from being insta-gibbed, or the raid will be saying, "Let the Holy paladin tank it!" (great motivator to HEALLL!!!!!!). o.O
Thankfully Blizzard will be changing the healing mechanics a little in Warlords of Draenor to make it a little less simple. Lots of players complained that healing's been a little too "fire-and-forget" in MoP so Blizzard is adressing these criticisms so all the healers don't get bored and quit.
OP couldn't agree more. Tired of devs trying to make MMORPG players do something they DONT like. Be EVERYTHING. People like being a "contributing part of something successful". Like in team sports...there are positions that you play, and everyone contributes in that role and contributes to the team. You don't have 5 guards in a basketball game...someone has to rebound and defend the hoop, handle the basketball, EVERYONE IS NOT THE SAME!! EQN devs...how about YOU building something...like a GOOD GAME!!
Personally I prefer specializing my characters along specific paths, such as a tank. It doesn't necessarily have to be trinity, but I don't like systems where everybody can do everything like in GW2.
OP couldn't agree more. Tired of devs trying to make MMORPG players do something they DONT like. Be EVERYTHING. People like being a "contributing part of something successful". Like in team sports...there are positions that you play, and everyone contributes in that role and contributes to the team. You don't have 5 guards in a basketball game...someone has to rebound and defend the hoop, handle the basketball, EVERYONE IS NOT THE SAME!! EQN devs...how about YOU building something...like a GOOD GAME!!
Don't think your analogy works. In basketball, you sometimes switch positions based on the team needs. If someone gets hurt and their backup is not available, someone switches positions. In hockey, when someone is in the penalty box, people have to switch their roles to handle the resulting gap. In football, you have some players that play left or right, some that play both offense and defense. A person may have a primary role, but they are much more valuable to the team if they can back someone up.
That's all the system does. You can play the role you want and, if necessary, switch to a backup role when your regular teammate is sick or AFK.
No one forces you to play the same as everyone else. No one forces you to seek out different classes/roles. If you want to play only one role, melee DPS for example, then simply play that one role. If someone asks you to play a different role, simply say "no" and play with someone else.
The system provides player that WANT to have different options that choice. It does not make players play a role they do not like.
All I see here is that you want to play one role and think that everyone else should be FORCED to play the way YOU want them to play. That's not what EQN is about. EQN is about playing how YOU want to play.
OP couldn't agree more. Tired of devs trying to make MMORPG players do something they DONT like. Be EVERYTHING. People like being a "contributing part of something successful". Like in team sports...there are positions that you play, and everyone contributes in that role and contributes to the team. You don't have 5 guards in a basketball game...someone has to rebound and defend the hoop, handle the basketball, EVERYONE IS NOT THE SAME!! EQN devs...how about YOU building something...like a GOOD GAME!!
Exactly.. and this is why games that have both PvP and PvE fail too.. If Basketball had PvP balance, the 6-0 guard would bitch that the 7-2 Center is OP cause the small guy can't rebound.. But then you have the Center crying nerf cause he couldn't make a 3 pointer to save his life..
Originally posted by bentrim OP couldn't agree more. Tired of devs trying to make MMORPG players do something they DONT like. Be EVERYTHING. People like being a "contributing part of something successful". Like in team sports...there are positions that you play, and everyone contributes in that role and contributes to the team. You don't have 5 guards in a basketball game...someone has to rebound and defend the hoop, handle the basketball, EVERYONE IS NOT THE SAME!! EQN devs...how about YOU building something...like a GOOD GAME!!
Exactly.. and this is why games that have both PvP and PvE fail too.. If Basketball had PvP balance, the 6-0 guard would bitch that the 7-2 Center is OP cause the small guy can't rebound.. But then you have the Center crying nerf cause he couldn't make a 3 pointer to save his life..
So every major mmo ever made has failed? I think you might need a reality check, sir.
Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.
They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.
The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market
There is nothing wrong with GW2's trinity free system. The dungeons I ran with my small guild were challenging for some members at first, because they were used to everyone following clearly defined roles, but it didn't take long before we adapted. A good trinity free system requires everyone to be on their toes and work cooperatively 100% of the time. I have quickly grown bored with WoW style dungeons and raids, because your role is so narrow that you just need to know where to be, what to spam and who/what to spam on.
I think where GW2 went wrong was the pre-launch reversal on field respecs. Finding highly effective group builds for a given dungeon takes tweaking and field respecs would have made the transition much easier for those who became easily frustrated by the loss of reassuring, narrowly focused, predefined roles in dungeon groups.
The pros probably outweigh the cons for build permanence in a trinity based system, though I'm not entirely convinced it's always the best choice. However, for a trinity free system, IMO, build permanence is counterproductive and especially detrimental for those trying to make the transition to a system that required more strategic thinking when adjusting personal builds for a group effort.
In any event, dismissing a game for lack of trinity seems unjustified, as there is no evidence that a trinity free system can't be made to work and work well, if properly designed.
Originally posted by Omali It's the old one-two punch. A developer announces an MMO with the holy trinity, and you get people whining that the game doesn't break new ground. Another developer announces a game that ditches the holy trinity, and you get the other half whining that the game doesn't stay on the beaten path.No one ever stops to think "maybe I'm not the demographic for this game."
A.
Fudgen.
Men.
Yep. Glad I'm not the only that notices this. That's why developers should always stick with their original design decisions because so many players don't really know what they want.
I am disappointed if this is true. The issue with GW2 is that, in PVE, defensive gear and defensive play is useless. You are a bad if you gear defensively. The only viable PVE play is full DPS gear and damage zerging through enemies.
I was hoping that EverQuest next would bring a little bit more playstyle versatility than GW2. Assuming that the OP is correct, this is sad news. I like GW2, but I don't need a clone of it.
So basically we have GW2 all over again with Zergfest? Where everyone has to watch out for themselves when the chaos starts? BUT just then you responded to another thread saying roles will be there.. So which is it.. ROLES or NO ROLES.. It can't be both.. The only thing I can figure out with all this hokey pokey is that, according to SOE, you can still play the tank even tho it isn't required..... OH.. OK I see.. So when I jump into an encounter were 5 others are playing GW2 Zergfest, I can pretend to be a plate wearing tank and fool myself.. LOL But my presence probably makes no difference in what the other 5 are doing.. I might as well be invisible as far as they are concerned..
GW2 tied that, and it sucks.. LOL Oh sure I can be a water elementalist and go around pretending to be a healer.. but seriously? In the end. it's still ZERGFEST.. LOL
PS Edit: Now don't get me wrong.. I'm all for solobilty and don't mind the GW2 style of soft grouping, and open world boss situations.. I just wish ArenaNet tweaked the class skills a bit, and made some encounters more role dependant..
Why wouldn't people need to watch out for themselves? You really prefer to play a game where you can just whack away carelessly because someone will keep you alive? You seem to take "watch out for self" to mean no teamwork, no support, no communication, just tunnel vision dps. GW2 isn't the foundation of EQN, why would it's problems jump over if the game is being build completely differently from the ground up?
Yes having countless mobs on screen could be chaotic and zergy, no reason a group of players can't work together with roles and overcome the challenge. I would expect nothing less.
I take what they've said about roles to mean that you don't "have" to have a Warrior Tank with X skill to be able to do an encounter. With 40+ classes, there should be a lot of options. Maybe a Rogue has some tricks up it's sleeve that help keep a mob focused without needing to take a million damage to be healed by someone else that just spams heals. Roles are what you make of them. If you can't think beyond a closed system, not much I can say.
They've also said that players may run up against a challenge, die, and have to readjust. Switch classes, change builds/gear, bring more players, etc. There are options. Not simply, without a tank don't show up. Depending on the content, I'm going to assume having a mix of support-defense-offense will be much more productive them all offense if AI and content actually is challenging.
GW2 caters to zerging by design. If you played with a good Guardian or various defensive builds, you would see having "roles" even in GW2 does help. The PVE is just so bad that they really aren't needed and people can just spam DPS to win.
I think what you and others need to do is take a step away from GW2, WoW, and whatever other game has rained on your parade and realize there are options besides what they have, haven't done. SOE has several games under their belt that did not have the issues many are complaining about. No clue why they would all of a sudden go, "hey lets take all the things people obviously hate about X game and put them in EQN."
Does anyone actually vocalize that they want a watered down easy mode game? Or do people just assume that since WoW-GW2 are popular? I played both because they are better then the majority of games out. Just as I played EQ because I liked it better the UO (although I wish I had played more UO now). People play what is available and meets their needs. If EQN can meet player needs and actually raise the bar of what player want/expect, we should be happy.
Ugh, LoL is terrible! MOBA is fine for a casual game, I suppose, but this is supposed to be a premier title.
67 million people would disagree. MOBAs are as casual or non-casual as you make them. Those winning thousands, millions in prize money would probably have a different opinion then you. I'm not a LoL fan myself, but I see the appeal and hope some of that translates into EQN.
Players won't miss those roles because they won't be missing. EQN classes will have roles. They will just be played differently and require some actual brain power instead of hitting a few buttons to magically make everything work properly.
Why would I want that? I'm already busy trying to keep 1 to 40 people alive, I don't have time for gimmicks.
Now if DPS is bored, then work on DPS mechanics to keep themselves busy. My role is to keep players alive, especially a tank from being insta-gibbed, or the raid will be saying, "Let the Holy paladin tank it!" (great motivator to HEALLL!!!!!!). o.O
Why would you want to actually be challenged? You've got me on that.
Not to say that keeping 40 people alive isn't difficult, but as the devs have said, whack a mole was fun when I was a kid.
Healing/Support can have so much more too it then simply keeping HP bars full.
Originally posted by Madcater Well SOE you better realize that most people paying money for an everquest game want everquest 3 with mechanics of eq1 and eq2. Most people on eq1 and eq2 are over the age of 30 that have the money and enjoy playing a roll in the game. Tank, healer, utility,dps. I'm currently in a guild with well over 100 accounts and most will not play EQN. Most are leaving as soon as the next MMO that comes out and is worth while playing that has the Holy Trinity .Zerging games are for kids sitting in front of mommy's and daddy's big screen TV on their PS4. If I wanted to play a zerging game, I would go back to GW2 ohh ....wait may be not people stopped playing that game because of those game mechanics and no real rolls. I don't know who ever came up with this kind of of everquest game.I have played eq1 and eq2 since launch. Along with mostly all guild mates they are deeply disappointed in EQN.And you can say well those people can just continue to play an outdated game, shame on you. Guess time will tell how many account you will hold in these games over the next year or two.
Few thousand vs few million. No offense, but your threats are pointless. If people wanted EQ1/2, they would of both been more popular. Almost all of the people I knew in EQ, DAoC, UO ended up in WoW. I can't remember many going back. Not to say WoW was better or games that have followed, but "most people" never played EQ1/2 nor do they want slow, grindy PVE. Roles will still be there and you'll most likely be in EQN along with your 100 friends.
Don't get me wrong, I like GW2 and play it regularly. However, I am not one of those people that need to hate everything that is different from what I currently like. I like the GW2 style of combat as well as trinity and those hybrids that fall in between the two.
I was honestly hoping for something a bit more innovative out of EQN. GW2 is the primary MMO that I've been playing since it launched. I was really hoping for something different, even if they went back to classic trinity for EQN.
I like GW2, but the way that PVE only allows for one style of play to be optimal is annoying. You will literally get group kicked if you run defensive builds. The majority of damage can be avoided by dodging, therefore running a defensive build is counterintuitive. The only defensive abilities you need to bring are condition removals. You need to be completely optimized for DPS in GW2 if you are running high end content like high level fractals. I don't necessarily need classical tanking(AKA tank and spank) in EQN, but I was hoping that they would come up with something that doesn't punish or discourage defensive/support play.
I am disappointed if this is true. The issue with GW2 is that, in PVE, defensive gear and defensive play is useless. You are a bad if you gear defensively. The only viable PVE play is full DPS gear and damage zerging through enemies.
I was hoping that EverQuest next would bring a little bit more playstyle versatility than GW2. Assuming that the OP is correct, this is sad news. I like GW2, but I don't need a clone of it.
As the OP is only stating an opinion, don't be too worried.
I am disappointed if this is true. The issue with GW2 is that, in PVE, defensive gear and defensive play is useless. You are a bad if you gear defensively. The only viable PVE play is full DPS gear and damage zerging through enemies.
I was hoping that EverQuest next would bring a little bit more playstyle versatility than GW2. Assuming that the OP is correct, this is sad news. I like GW2, but I don't need a clone of it.
As the OP is only stating an opinion, don't be too worried.
Yeh, GW2 combat isn't horribad, but hopefully they don't clone it.
I am disappointed if this is true. The issue with GW2 is that, in PVE, defensive gear and defensive play is useless. You are a bad if you gear defensively. The only viable PVE play is full DPS gear and damage zerging through enemies.
I was hoping that EverQuest next would bring a little bit more playstyle versatility than GW2. Assuming that the OP is correct, this is sad news. I like GW2, but I don't need a clone of it.
As the OP is only stating an opinion, don't be too worried.
Yeh, GW2 combat isn't horribad, but hopefully they don't clone it.
Hope they do for those who enjoy it. Instead of the treadmill combat of the Trinity
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I am disappointed if this is true. The issue with GW2 is that, in PVE, defensive gear and defensive play is useless. You are a bad if you gear defensively. The only viable PVE play is full DPS gear and damage zerging through enemies.
I was hoping that EverQuest next would bring a little bit more playstyle versatility than GW2. Assuming that the OP is correct, this is sad news. I like GW2, but I don't need a clone of it.
As the OP is only stating an opinion, don't be too worried.
Yeh, GW2 combat isn't horribad, but hopefully they don't clone it.
Hope they do for those who enjoy it. Instead of the treadmill combat of the Trinity
What is wrong with innovating and coming up with something new that may include some elements of the GW2 combat style. I don't really see a need to clone it.
Comments
Players won't miss those roles because they won't be missing. EQN classes will have roles. They will just be played differently and require some actual brain power instead of hitting a few buttons to magically make everything work properly.
If they design all the classes well, there should be room to be offensive/defensive/support with most if not all classes. Hopefully not all at once (GW2) but if a Warrior, which we've seen, is naturally "tanky", adds on 4 skills that add to support or offense, hopefully it can contribute to those roles. While a Warrior that tacks on 4 "tank" abilities is a mobile wall.
So basically we have GW2 all over again with Zergfest? Where everyone has to watch out for themselves when the chaos starts? BUT just then you responded to another thread saying roles will be there.. So which is it.. ROLES or NO ROLES.. It can't be both.. The only thing I can figure out with all this hokey pokey is that, according to SOE, you can still play the tank even tho it isn't required..... OH.. OK I see.. So when I jump into an encounter were 5 others are playing GW2 Zergfest, I can pretend to be a plate wearing tank and fool myself.. LOL But my presence probably makes no difference in what the other 5 are doing.. I might as well be invisible as far as they are concerned..
GW2 tied that, and it sucks.. LOL Oh sure I can be a water elementalist and go around pretending to be a healer.. but seriously? In the end. it's still ZERGFEST.. LOL
PS Edit: Now don't get me wrong.. I'm all for solobilty and don't mind the GW2 style of soft grouping, and open world boss situations.. I just wish ArenaNet tweaked the class skills a bit, and made some encounters more role dependant..
I like to see them try, but if it was such a sure thing, it would've been implemented years ago. EQII was doing that whole Fighter 2.0 revamp in 2009+, they didn't change the roles then, when there was an opportunity. Not like it couldn't be done, especially when seeing paladins were classified as scouts.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Yes, I saw that, but where did I say anything about taunting? "Fighter ability tier 1, 2 ability points: Your melee attacks generate (damage * 1.25) threat," "Rogue ability tier 1, 2 ability points: Your melee attacks generate (damage * 0.8) threat." There will be something like this, or the game will be unplayable for most classes.
Ugh, LoL is terrible! MOBA is fine for a casual game, I suppose, but this is supposed to be a premier title.
Have these people never actually played D&D? You want more roles? Add in traps, so you need a rogueish type or your healer is going to be working overtime; add in wilderness where you will spend extra time (and so fight extra monsters) if you don't have a druid or ranger to guide you; add in fights on other planes of existence, against demigods who can bind or banish you if you don't have a monk-type class to anchor you; add in armies of undead or brainwashed cultists that you need an enchanter or necromancer to deal with.
I remember in original EQ when taunt was basically useless and rogues were unwelcome in groups because they either had to sit out half the fight or die immediately. Surely they aren't stupid enough to let that happen again?
Why would I want that? I'm already busy trying to keep 1 to 40 people alive, I don't have time for gimmicks.
Now if DPS is bored, then work on DPS mechanics to keep themselves busy. My role is to keep players alive, especially a tank from being insta-gibbed, or the raid will be saying, "Let the Holy paladin tank it!" (great motivator to HEALLL!!!!!!). o.O
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Along with all that, I would assume from what they've shown/said that PVE content in general will not be what we've known. Three Orcs won't just hang out in camp waiting to get pulled one by one to respawn 5 min later. DG talked about "thousands" of Orcs in Crushbone. I foresee a lot of large scale combat, even just the casual in the middle of the woods stuff.
The trinity is okay for 1 big boss or lone mob, but toss in 10, 20, 50 mobs and the trinity isn't very useful, unless 50 mobs really don't like their moms talked about. I'm hoping what has been written in the Novellas translates to what will be in game.
I think until we actually get more details or see the AI in action, this level of confusion and disbelief will continue. Even though I'm hopeful, I have no clue what is going to happen, just like those without any faith.
Come on SOE!
So basically we have GW2 all over again with Zergfest? Where everyone has to watch out for themselves when the chaos starts? BUT just then you responded to another thread saying roles will be there.. So which is it.. ROLES or NO ROLES.. It can't be both.. The only thing I can figure out with all this hokey pokey is that, according to SOE, you can still play the tank even tho it isn't required..... OH.. OK I see.. So when I jump into an encounter were 5 others are playing GW2 Zergfest, I can pretend to be a plate wearing tank and fool myself.. LOL But my presence probably makes no difference in what the other 5 are doing.. I might as well be invisible as far as they are concerned..
GW2 tied that, and it sucks.. LOL Oh sure I can be a water elementalist and go around pretending to be a healer.. but seriously? In the end. it's still ZERGFEST.. LOL
PS Edit: Now don't get me wrong.. I'm all for solobilty and don't mind the GW2 style of soft grouping, and open world boss situations.. I just wish ArenaNet tweaked the class skills a bit, and made some encounters more role dependant..
I encourage you to read my comment about the AI and how, as AI gets smarter the traditional "trinity" will evolve more into what you see in pvp situations. There are still tanks, healers and dps but there is no absolute value on each role. Yes, to a degree everyone will have to be watching out for themselves however the "tank" abilities will more than likely be mobility / cc based or even debuff based rather than threat based. Healers will obviously heal and dps will do their thing. The roles WILL still exist but they will play differentlY from what people have been familiar with over the past 12-14 years. As a reference, think of how things worked in early UO. The combat was extremely fun but there were no dedicated roles and it worked very well.OP couldn't agree more. Tired of devs trying to make MMORPG players do something they DONT like. Be EVERYTHING. People like being a "contributing part of something successful". Like in team sports...there are positions that you play, and everyone contributes in that role and contributes to the team. You don't have 5 guards in a basketball game...someone has to rebound and defend the hoop, handle the basketball, EVERYONE IS NOT THE SAME!! EQN devs...how about YOU building something...like a GOOD GAME!!
Personally I prefer specializing my characters along specific paths, such as a tank. It doesn't necessarily have to be trinity, but I don't like systems where everybody can do everything like in GW2.
Don't think your analogy works. In basketball, you sometimes switch positions based on the team needs. If someone gets hurt and their backup is not available, someone switches positions. In hockey, when someone is in the penalty box, people have to switch their roles to handle the resulting gap. In football, you have some players that play left or right, some that play both offense and defense. A person may have a primary role, but they are much more valuable to the team if they can back someone up.
That's all the system does. You can play the role you want and, if necessary, switch to a backup role when your regular teammate is sick or AFK.
No one forces you to play the same as everyone else. No one forces you to seek out different classes/roles. If you want to play only one role, melee DPS for example, then simply play that one role. If someone asks you to play a different role, simply say "no" and play with someone else.
The system provides player that WANT to have different options that choice. It does not make players play a role they do not like.
All I see here is that you want to play one role and think that everyone else should be FORCED to play the way YOU want them to play. That's not what EQN is about. EQN is about playing how YOU want to play.
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Exactly.. and this is why games that have both PvP and PvE fail too.. If Basketball had PvP balance, the 6-0 guard would bitch that the 7-2 Center is OP cause the small guy can't rebound.. But then you have the Center crying nerf cause he couldn't make a 3 pointer to save his life..
Exactly.. and this is why games that have both PvP and PvE fail too.. If Basketball had PvP balance, the 6-0 guard would bitch that the 7-2 Center is OP cause the small guy can't rebound.. But then you have the Center crying nerf cause he couldn't make a 3 pointer to save his life..
So every major mmo ever made has failed? I think you might need a reality check, sir.There is nothing wrong with GW2's trinity free system. The dungeons I ran with my small guild were challenging for some members at first, because they were used to everyone following clearly defined roles, but it didn't take long before we adapted. A good trinity free system requires everyone to be on their toes and work cooperatively 100% of the time. I have quickly grown bored with WoW style dungeons and raids, because your role is so narrow that you just need to know where to be, what to spam and who/what to spam on.
I think where GW2 went wrong was the pre-launch reversal on field respecs. Finding highly effective group builds for a given dungeon takes tweaking and field respecs would have made the transition much easier for those who became easily frustrated by the loss of reassuring, narrowly focused, predefined roles in dungeon groups.
The pros probably outweigh the cons for build permanence in a trinity based system, though I'm not entirely convinced it's always the best choice. However, for a trinity free system, IMO, build permanence is counterproductive and especially detrimental for those trying to make the transition to a system that required more strategic thinking when adjusting personal builds for a group effort.
In any event, dismissing a game for lack of trinity seems unjustified, as there is no evidence that a trinity free system can't be made to work and work well, if properly designed.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
A.
Fudgen.
Men.
Yep. Glad I'm not the only that notices this. That's why developers should always stick with their original design decisions because so many players don't really know what they want.Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I am disappointed if this is true. The issue with GW2 is that, in PVE, defensive gear and defensive play is useless. You are a bad if you gear defensively. The only viable PVE play is full DPS gear and damage zerging through enemies.
I was hoping that EverQuest next would bring a little bit more playstyle versatility than GW2. Assuming that the OP is correct, this is sad news. I like GW2, but I don't need a clone of it.
Why wouldn't people need to watch out for themselves? You really prefer to play a game where you can just whack away carelessly because someone will keep you alive? You seem to take "watch out for self" to mean no teamwork, no support, no communication, just tunnel vision dps. GW2 isn't the foundation of EQN, why would it's problems jump over if the game is being build completely differently from the ground up?
Yes having countless mobs on screen could be chaotic and zergy, no reason a group of players can't work together with roles and overcome the challenge. I would expect nothing less.
I take what they've said about roles to mean that you don't "have" to have a Warrior Tank with X skill to be able to do an encounter. With 40+ classes, there should be a lot of options. Maybe a Rogue has some tricks up it's sleeve that help keep a mob focused without needing to take a million damage to be healed by someone else that just spams heals. Roles are what you make of them. If you can't think beyond a closed system, not much I can say.
They've also said that players may run up against a challenge, die, and have to readjust. Switch classes, change builds/gear, bring more players, etc. There are options. Not simply, without a tank don't show up. Depending on the content, I'm going to assume having a mix of support-defense-offense will be much more productive them all offense if AI and content actually is challenging.
GW2 caters to zerging by design. If you played with a good Guardian or various defensive builds, you would see having "roles" even in GW2 does help. The PVE is just so bad that they really aren't needed and people can just spam DPS to win.
I think what you and others need to do is take a step away from GW2, WoW, and whatever other game has rained on your parade and realize there are options besides what they have, haven't done. SOE has several games under their belt that did not have the issues many are complaining about. No clue why they would all of a sudden go, "hey lets take all the things people obviously hate about X game and put them in EQN."
Does anyone actually vocalize that they want a watered down easy mode game? Or do people just assume that since WoW-GW2 are popular? I played both because they are better then the majority of games out. Just as I played EQ because I liked it better the UO (although I wish I had played more UO now). People play what is available and meets their needs. If EQN can meet player needs and actually raise the bar of what player want/expect, we should be happy.
67 million people would disagree. MOBAs are as casual or non-casual as you make them. Those winning thousands, millions in prize money would probably have a different opinion then you. I'm not a LoL fan myself, but I see the appeal and hope some of that translates into EQN.
Why would you want to actually be challenged? You've got me on that.
Not to say that keeping 40 people alive isn't difficult, but as the devs have said, whack a mole was fun when I was a kid.
Healing/Support can have so much more too it then simply keeping HP bars full.
Few thousand vs few million. No offense, but your threats are pointless. If people wanted EQ1/2, they would of both been more popular. Almost all of the people I knew in EQ, DAoC, UO ended up in WoW. I can't remember many going back. Not to say WoW was better or games that have followed, but "most people" never played EQ1/2 nor do they want slow, grindy PVE. Roles will still be there and you'll most likely be in EQN along with your 100 friends.
Don't get me wrong, I like GW2 and play it regularly. However, I am not one of those people that need to hate everything that is different from what I currently like. I like the GW2 style of combat as well as trinity and those hybrids that fall in between the two.
I was honestly hoping for something a bit more innovative out of EQN. GW2 is the primary MMO that I've been playing since it launched. I was really hoping for something different, even if they went back to classic trinity for EQN.
I like GW2, but the way that PVE only allows for one style of play to be optimal is annoying. You will literally get group kicked if you run defensive builds. The majority of damage can be avoided by dodging, therefore running a defensive build is counterintuitive. The only defensive abilities you need to bring are condition removals. You need to be completely optimized for DPS in GW2 if you are running high end content like high level fractals. I don't necessarily need classical tanking(AKA tank and spank) in EQN, but I was hoping that they would come up with something that doesn't punish or discourage defensive/support play.
As the OP is only stating an opinion, don't be too worried.
Yeh, GW2 combat isn't horribad, but hopefully they don't clone it.
Hope they do for those who enjoy it. Instead of the treadmill combat of the Trinity
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
What is wrong with innovating and coming up with something new that may include some elements of the GW2 combat style. I don't really see a need to clone it.